Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

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Kinokima
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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Kinokima » Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:14 pm

Everyone complaining that Vegeta mentioned his family. I find that hilarious when the last couple weeks people were complaining that he hadn’t mentioned his family at all during the TOP & that he seemingly forgot them. Now that he does people complain it’s the same old thing & we know he loves his family already. Um okay!

Remember when everyone said Vegeta was selfish and only fighting for himself because he didn’t mention what he was fighting for until episode 112, that he regressed as a character? Now it’s become he is mentioning what he is fighting for too much. They need to do something new with his character.

The only thing I’ve seen something overly new for is 17 and that is because we haven’t seen him in ages and he has changed drastically since we last saw him. Otherwise it’s been the same ol thing with everyone and really it comes down to whether you like that same ol thing for that particular character.

Vegeta has still changed more than a lot of Dragonball characters for me it never gets old seeing how he cares because I am always reminded of how far he has come. I also don’t mind when Vegeta can act like a jerk on the surface because that is just Vegeta and I know underneath he cares. But unless people are directly shown that he cares people seem to not understand.
Last edited by Kinokima on Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Kaiosama » Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:17 pm

ZenkaiBoosts wrote:
MajinMan wrote:You know, this episode actually pissed me off. As a fan, coming off last week’s episode, I wanted something more from Toppo. A big final duel with Vegeta would have been fine, but NOOOO, Vegeta had to easily win, stay in the ring, and continue to fight in the next episode (based on the preview). Complete garbage. One of the worst episodes, if not THE worst episode, of this tournament.

I don’t like saying this, but Toppo felt completely WASTED. I know I’ve been hating on Vegeta for most of this arc, but for a while he was almost tolerable. But he single handedly ruined any momentum this god damn show had in this episode. The next episode NEEDS to reestablish that momentum or the finale will fall flat on its ass. I’m so disappointed right now.
I know what you are feeling. I was this pissed off for episode 125, when they eliminated Gohan.

It was supposed to be Gohan's big epic moment and yet hes only in the eposide for the last 5 mins and goes out with a little whimper due to some forced BS. As if Golden Frieza couldnt have competed against Dyspo by himself. As if Gohan would just leave and go buddy buddy with Frieza.

It just makes Vegeta continuing to stay in this tournament with all these asspulls, that much more infuriatating.

Why does Vegeta continue to get all this shine? Super has honestly made me so sick of Vegeta, to the point I actually want Vegeta to die off now

Only UI Goku taking the clean win over Jiren can end Super on the highest most epic note possible
Vegeta is a terrible and uninteresting character and has been made even more so in this arc by poor writing. There's better choices they could have gone with that would have made it more interesting. Keep Hit in longer, push Gohan and Golden Frieza more. At least they've been giving 17 good development. Clearly it's pandering by Toei because the writing has gone a full 360. Usually Vegeta gets punished for these behaviors he's been displaying in this arc and Goku is supposed to get the shine. They better have the final fight be between Full UI Goku and Jiren instead of Vegito or Goku and Vegeta vs Jiren. If not, then this series will end on a flat note for sure.
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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Miracles » Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:41 pm

ZenkaiBoosts wrote:I agree with you in that I hope Jiren cleans house in episode 127.

Vegeta has gotten more then enough shine. Now it's time for Vegeta to get eliminated. Enough is enough

Whether Super chapter 1 gets remembered in a good light or not, will come down to if they nail UI Omen Goku vs Jiren 1 vs 1. It needs to be as epic as possible with build up, pacing and execution

Remember the promo material teases? It said that something awful would happen to push Goku into that transformation

I hope it's all done extremely well and I hope Goku's UI transformation is as epic as Goku's SSJ transformation on Namek.

The real fight everyone has been looking forward to is UI Goku vs Jiren

It's crazy how Goku has NOT gotten 1 legit huge win in Super yet. It's Super annoying.

They even let Vegeta get a win over a god of destruction while Goku still hasn't gotten anything.

It's actually kind of insulting.

Goku needs to be the one to straight up defeat Jiren one vs one.

Toyotaro is said to be a huge Vegeta fanboy and Goku hater. I'm glad Toei stopped listening to Toyotaro, and started taking Toriyama's scripts as the word of God, as Toei just recently said
This isn't facts. Goku in the manga fought a fused immortal head -to-head and you make false claims that Toyotaro is a Goku hater and a Vegeta fanboy?
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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by BWri » Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:27 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Dbzfan94 wrote: Exactly. And it makes it all pointless when Vegeta is back to full power going SS Bluer in the next episode
You should probably delete your post in last week's episode thread and post it here instead.
Hurry! while there's still time :lol:
Whoops! Thanks for that. :lol:

Ok did anyone else laugh when Jiren roundhoused kicked Goku mid sentence after Toppo lost
I did. Jiren was easily the best part of this episode, and that's the first time in my life I've said that. That particular moment was my best. Everything else in this ep can go suck a lemon. I kinda like the Final Explosion callback but it felt pointless. Toppo was more than pointless and got clowned by damn near everyone in this episode and that makes me sad. More character decay for an awesome character for no reason at all. To me Toppo instantly became the best thing about this tournament.
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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Miracles » Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:34 pm

As for the episode, Toppo didn't get justice. He was lacking intimidation and diversity in the power department.
All Toppo did was shoot beams and talk about how he was going to kick people off the stage but didn't.

I know Vegeta fans are happy about Vegeta's "shine" but I find this attention insulting. Giving Vegeta a power up based on family/friends is lame. That belongs in Yu gi oh.
The fight choreography between Vegeta and Toppo which was a beam struggle wasn't worthy of a endgame fight of a universe survival arc.
Then the call back to the suicide attack was the only thing they could do for this finale?

Only thing good was Jiren clowning Toppo and kicking Goku, lololololololololololol
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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by FortuneSSJ » Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:50 pm

Terrible!
The writing of this episode was terrible. One of the worst in the Tournament.

Toppo was wasted. The second strongest Pride Trooper and a GoD Candidate didn't eliminate a single person in this Tournament. Even Dyspo took Gohan with him.
Unbelievable. There was 4 U7 fighters there before Toppo transforming and those 4 are still there.

Freeza gets up and starts laughing as if he hadn't got his ass beaten in the previous episode.

Vegeta's character is as boring as he can be. How is this guy still so popular?! He's just redundant at this point. He pulls off his family and senpai cards again, talks about his Saiyan pride again and he does another Final Flash again. At least, he didn't act like a Tsundere again.

And yeah, of course Plot17 is still in. Because have 4 U7 fighters vs 1 U11 fighter is such a good idea. As if the audience still didn't know how strong Jiren is after he beat Berserk Kale, Hit, Goku...

The only thing I liked was to see more battle damage and Jiren saying he expected more from Toppo. My thoughts right there.
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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by fadeddreams5 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:56 pm

I find it amusing that Gohan never once got a scene where he had a flashback of his family, and obtained a rage boost from it.

Vegeta stole his hidden powers since DBZ was resurrected.
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Asura » Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:01 pm

fadeddreams5 wrote:I find it amusing that Gohan never once got a scene where he had a flashback of his family, and obtained a rage boost from it.

Vegeta stole his hidden powers since DBZ was resurrected.
It is pretty silly when you put it that way. The fighter that cares the most about his family never even mentioned them.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Kagari » Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:21 pm

Asura wrote:
fadeddreams5 wrote:I find it amusing that Gohan never once got a scene where he had a flashback of his family, and obtained a rage boost from it.

Vegeta stole his hidden powers since DBZ was resurrected.
It is pretty silly when you put it that way. The fighter that cares the most about his family never even mentioned them.
They did, it was just done in a subtle way at the end of 103. He doesn't need to be out there spouting off about something we already know.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by precita » Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:41 pm

The ironic thing is outside of kazenshuu, this ep seems better received in other places. Look at reddit's DB review thread, Resetera's Super thread, or various other anime/videogame forums that have DB super topics, it seems better received from what I've been seeing than here. I haven't checked the twitter/tumblr crowd but it seems a bit more mixed there.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Artorias » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:08 pm

TameImpala wrote:Bunch of Goku fanboy/crybabies in this forum. Finally someone other than Goku is getting some awesome screen time, and you guys just bitch about it.
Oh yea. It's clearly just because we hate Vegeta. It's not like we've brought up legitimate writing criticisms. Nah, it's just cuz Vegeta sucks apparently.

It has nothing to do with Vegeta getting shine, it has everything to do with the WRITING surrounding the shine. People aren't "Goku fanboys" just because they aren't mindlessly clapping their hands together like a seal when Vegeta-sama does something "epic". Learn to have nuance.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by chickensguys » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:14 pm

nato25 wrote:
Jackalope89 wrote:
chickensguys wrote:I don't get the hate about this episode. I thought it was in the top 25 percent of episodes for sure. We get a little more about Jiren's characters unveiled, he seems to have high expectations for this friends. Vegeta gets the limelight and actually accomplishes something. The explanation given for why the final explosion didn't kill him seemed perfectly adequate. You can square it however you like, he didn't go all out, he has gotten stronger and could control it better. The animation was quite good on the whole as well.
This is where I stand as well.
I like all the points you mentioned as well but the first half is what really killed it for me (one of the worst halfs of an episode ever in my opinion) and all the non new content like replaying the end of the last episode and the flashback.
I thought the Flashback was very good considering Piccolo's reaction and explanation. He was the last adult to speak with Freezer in DBZ so to have Piccolo react the way he did was perfect.

On the spectrum of things to whine and complain about this episode was mostly great. The weakest part was Freezer recovering so quick without a good explanation. Other than that, just think how terrible Episode 5.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Artorias » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:17 pm

Xehanort wrote:The issue some people here are having with Vegeta surviving is that they applied the same exact context to a move that is clearly not the same. The Final Explosion is characterized as a suicide move, it's completely irrelevant to Ki or resistance, the whole idea is use everything the fighter has to destroy his opponent and die as a consequence.

Vegeta survived, which means it's not the same attack but they still applied the same context (remembering family and friends, and that there's things at stake and he needs to do everything in his power to protect them) which resulted in a very contrived and poorly delivered scene/callback.
Perfectly stated. Having him survive completely defeats the entire purpose of doing the callback in the first place. It's similar to what they've done with Kaioken and Goku. Getting rid of the downside to the move renders the entire idea of bringing back the move pointless, because now it's just a generic power up that means nothing, and could've easily been something else entirely.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Kinokima » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:23 pm

Kagari wrote:
Asura wrote:
fadeddreams5 wrote:I find it amusing that Gohan never once got a scene where he had a flashback of his family, and obtained a rage boost from it.

Vegeta stole his hidden powers since DBZ was resurrected.
It is pretty silly when you put it that way. The fighter that cares the most about his family never even mentioned them.
They did, it was just done in a subtle way at the end of 103. He doesn't need to be out there spouting off about something we already know.

Oh yeah that locket scene was sooooo subtle in comparison...

Like I said for weeks people said Vegeta didn’t care about how family because he didn’t think of them once.

Now he literally thinks of them for one frame= being beat over the head apparently.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Artorias » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:25 pm

Kinokima wrote:
Xehanort wrote:The issue some people here are having with Vegeta surviving is that they applied the same exact context to a move that is clearly not the same. The Final Explosion is characterized as a suicide move, it's completely irrelevant to Ki or resistance, the whole idea is use everything the fighter has to destroy his opponent and die as a consequence.

Vegeta survived, which means it's not the same attack but they still applied the same context (remembering family and friends, and that there's things at stake and he needs to do everything in his power to protect them) which resulted in a very contrived and poorly delivered scene/callback.

In the Super Manga Vegeta also uses the technique and does not die http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Final_Explosion


As I said before I think the point was Vegeta was not trying to sacrifice himself here. Yes that is what Piccolo thought Vegeta was trying to do but just because he used the same technique I don’t think Vegeta had any intention of killing himself and believed he was powerful enough to handle what he wanted to do with the technique (push Toppo off the stage)

Also the call back to when Vegeta says Bulma/Trunks/Bulla/Cabba is not equal to the call back in Final Atonement as people like to point out. There Vegeta clearly says Goodbye as though he knows his life is being thrown away. Here Vegeta clearly says I am not throwing anything away when thinking about them. It is the opposite he is holding onto life. It wouldn’t even make sense if Vegeta tried to kill himself. How could he keep his promise to Cabba then?

Even at the end when Vegeta says I am not dead yet there is no surprise in his voice it’s a statement of fact. I’m stil here! Vegeta showed Toppo you can survive and hold onto who you are. Vegeta sacrificing himself would actually negate what the episode was trying to say.
Hopefully this isn't a retread of our conversation yesterday, but you're arguing from an in-universe perspective, while he's mainly talking about the out of universe narrative perspective. It's irrelevant whether or not he intended to die, or whether or not Piccolo was "mistaken" about what he was doing, or whatever else. The point is that the WRITERS should never have even brought the move up in this story if they weren't going to have him die. The writers control what Piccolo was thinking, so yes, you can explain away all of this with in-universe logic, but it doesn't change the fact that harkening back to that attack in a flashback is pointless narratively if you aren't even going to include the KEY component of that flashback, which is Vegeta's death.

That would be like doing an SSJ2 Gohan homage flashback, only for Gohan to scream and not power up whatsoever. What is even the point? Don't remind us of a concept if it's not relevant.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Kinokima » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:34 pm

Artorias wrote:
Kinokima wrote:
Xehanort wrote:The issue some people here are having with Vegeta surviving is that they applied the same exact context to a move that is clearly not the same. The Final Explosion is characterized as a suicide move, it's completely irrelevant to Ki or resistance, the whole idea is use everything the fighter has to destroy his opponent and die as a consequence.

Vegeta survived, which means it's not the same attack but they still applied the same context (remembering family and friends, and that there's things at stake and he needs to do everything in his power to protect them) which resulted in a very contrived and poorly delivered scene/callback.

In the Super Manga Vegeta also uses the technique and does not die http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Final_Explosion


As I said before I think the point was Vegeta was not trying to sacrifice himself here. Yes that is what Piccolo thought Vegeta was trying to do but just because he used the same technique I don’t think Vegeta had any intention of killing himself and believed he was powerful enough to handle what he wanted to do with the technique (push Toppo off the stage)

Also the call back to when Vegeta says Bulma/Trunks/Bulla/Cabba is not equal to the call back in Final Atonement as people like to point out. There Vegeta clearly says Goodbye as though he knows his life is being thrown away. Here Vegeta clearly says I am not throwing anything away when thinking about them. It is the opposite he is holding onto life. It wouldn’t even make sense if Vegeta tried to kill himself. How could he keep his promise to Cabba then?

Even at the end when Vegeta says I am not dead yet there is no surprise in his voice it’s a statement of fact. I’m stil here! Vegeta showed Toppo you can survive and hold onto who you are. Vegeta sacrificing himself would actually negate what the episode was trying to say.
Hopefully this isn't a retread of our conversation yesterday, but you're arguing from an in-universe perspective, while he's mainly talking about the out of universe narrative perspective. It's irrelevant whether or not he intended to die, or whether or not Piccolo was "mistaken" about what he was doing, or whatever else. The point is that the WRITERS should never have even brought the move up in this story if they weren't going to have him die. The writers control what Piccolo was thinking, so yes, you can explain away all of this with in-universe logic, but it doesn't change the fact that harkening back to that attack in a flashback is pointless narratively if you aren't even going to include the KEY component of that flashback, which is Vegeta's death.

That would be like doing an SSJ2 Gohan homage flashback, only for Gohan to scream and not power up whatsoever. What is even the point? Don't remind us of a concept if it's not relevant.

I completely disagree. They showed the flashback because this episode was meant to parallel Final Atonement not be the exact same thing. The only thing that was the same was the move not the outcome.

In that episode Vegeta sacrifices himself to save the world for his loved ones. In this episode he is living and fighting on for those who cares about. It’s the same move but it’s meant to be the opposite of that episode. It’s an episode about Vegeta vs Toppo’s views on survival not about sacrifice.


Anyways you don’t have to agree and I am sure we will be arguing in circles because we see this episode so differently. I don’t agree with you but you have a right to your viewpoint I hope you will respect mine. In the end I just got something differently out of this episode than you.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Artorias » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:37 pm

Kinokima wrote:
Artorias wrote:
Kinokima wrote:

In the Super Manga Vegeta also uses the technique and does not die http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Final_Explosion


As I said before I think the point was Vegeta was not trying to sacrifice himself here. Yes that is what Piccolo thought Vegeta was trying to do but just because he used the same technique I don’t think Vegeta had any intention of killing himself and believed he was powerful enough to handle what he wanted to do with the technique (push Toppo off the stage)

Also the call back to when Vegeta says Bulma/Trunks/Bulla/Cabba is not equal to the call back in Final Atonement as people like to point out. There Vegeta clearly says Goodbye as though he knows his life is being thrown away. Here Vegeta clearly says I am not throwing anything away when thinking about them. It is the opposite he is holding onto life. It wouldn’t even make sense if Vegeta tried to kill himself. How could he keep his promise to Cabba then?

Even at the end when Vegeta says I am not dead yet there is no surprise in his voice it’s a statement of fact. I’m stil here! Vegeta showed Toppo you can survive and hold onto who you are. Vegeta sacrificing himself would actually negate what the episode was trying to say.
Hopefully this isn't a retread of our conversation yesterday, but you're arguing from an in-universe perspective, while he's mainly talking about the out of universe narrative perspective. It's irrelevant whether or not he intended to die, or whether or not Piccolo was "mistaken" about what he was doing, or whatever else. The point is that the WRITERS should never have even brought the move up in this story if they weren't going to have him die. The writers control what Piccolo was thinking, so yes, you can explain away all of this with in-universe logic, but it doesn't change the fact that harkening back to that attack in a flashback is pointless narratively if you aren't even going to include the KEY component of that flashback, which is Vegeta's death.

That would be like doing an SSJ2 Gohan homage flashback, only for Gohan to scream and not power up whatsoever. What is even the point? Don't remind us of a concept if it's not relevant.

I completely disagree. They showed the flashback because this episode was meant to parallel Final Atonement not be the exact same thing. The only thing that was the same was the move not the outcome.

In that episode Vegeta sacrifices himself to save the world for his loved ones. In this episode he is living and fighting on for those who cares about. It’s the same move but it’s meant to be the opposite of that episode. It’s an episode about Vegeta vs Toppo’s views on survival not about sacrifice.


Anyways you don’t have to agree and I am sure we will be arguing in circles because we see this episode so differently. I don’t agree with you but you have a right to your viewpoint I hope you will respect mine. In the end I just got something differently out of this episode than you.
I guess you're right, we just won't see things the same here.

I admit that I DO actually like the idea of Toppo casting everything aside while Vegeta embraces who he is and uses that to defeat a man who betrayed who he was. I just wish they actually delved more deeply into that, and found a way to do it without a flashback. But oh well.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by ZenkaiBoosts » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:49 pm

perucho1990 wrote:All I'm going to say is that as long as casuals like this "bad writing" then dont expect anything else from Toei.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9RCDz_lIdo

Casuals enjoyed the episodes and for Toei they are their main target and not the Internet Community/Hardcore fans. If you want to see anime with good writing then just wait for Boku No Hero Academia.
People will always play up for the cameras doing reaction videos on youtube. its all about the views. You can't put much stock into that video. I've seen a lot of people who didn't like the episode too. I've read a lot of the same divisive opinions in the comments across many videos etc.

As someone who loved this episode (for the last half of the episode; the great music, the fight, the pacing of the last half) I understand all the complaints. I understand it's been a very divisive episode - and that has been the case across the internet for this episode. This episode in general has he been very divisive

On another note, after hearing that the same guy who wrote episode 119 also wrote this episode, it makes sense now lol. This episode was saved by the directors/story boarding and animators.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Nero<>Akira » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:07 pm

people complaining that demi gods can regain their stamina and a decent amount of energy in a minute need to really take a step back and realize they aren't in the moral realm anymore.
Zamasu is the best DB villain besides Freeza (and this is only the case because the current Super arc elevated Freeza to be that good).

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Artorias » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:13 pm

Asura wrote:
Artorias wrote:Seeing a lot of people liking the IDEAS presented here, but ignoring the actual execution of it all. There was nothing deep or impressive about Vegeta's speech or actions in this episode. It was all vapid nonsense. Pay attention to what's actually being presented in front of you rather than going on about some idealized version of what the show was going for, but utterly failed to actually achieve. This was a parody of an actual emotional moment.
So much this. I feel like people like the IDEAS or CONCEPTS behind the episode’s writing yet completely ignore the execution. Vegeta risking it all and possibly blowing himself up to defeat a God of Destruction, calling back to the Majin Vegeta moment? Woah, sounds “epic” man. Sounds like “Vegeta fans will be happy”. Sounds like it’s a “very important turning point” for Vegeta who makes a speech about pride. Now he’s not just fighting for himself, but for other people!

Except we saw all of that before Super even began in the Buu arc, we’ve been getting these vapid and completely meaningless speeches about pride basically every other episode at this point, and just because the rest of this idea sounds good on paper doesn’t at all mean you should be excited for it regardless of the execution. I can’t count the amount of times here in this thread I’ve seen the word “epic” thrown around. Yeah, it’s a pretty epic idea, but the execution wasn’t at all epic. It was rushed, it was a rehash of what we’ve already seen before, it felt pointless in the context of the fight (Vegeta was already winning here, whereas against Buu he had no choice and was far outmatched).

People are so blinded by the idea that Vegeta beating Toppo in such an “epic” way automatically makes the execution good, but it simply wasnt. The writing was so laughably weak and this felt more like (yet another) fan service callback for no reason, and it’s pretty laughably bad when put up against the thing it was actually calling back to, the Majin Vegeta explosion.
Yep to all that. Same thing happened with episode 122 and Jiren's conversations with Goku and Vegeta. There is just nothing of substance going on in these conversations in this show, yet people fill in the blanks based on what they WANT the show to be presenting rather than what it's actually saying.

You can't give me two lines of random dialogue that come out of nowhere and expect me to care. Toppo and Vegeta have no connection. No history. No chemistry. Nothing. So it makes no sense to have these two interact in this manner for this "big" dig deep moment. There has to be set up and payoff, you can't just plop down random "emotional" moments out of nowhere sporadically throughout with no connective tissue.

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