Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by TameImpala » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:19 pm

Artorias wrote:
TameImpala wrote:Bunch of Goku fanboy/crybabies in this forum. Finally someone other than Goku is getting some awesome screen time, and you guys just bitch about it.
Oh yea. It's clearly just because we hate Vegeta. It's not like we've brought up legitimate writing criticisms. Nah, it's just cuz Vegeta sucks apparently.

It has nothing to do with Vegeta getting shine, it has everything to do with the WRITING surrounding the shine. People aren't "Goku fanboys" just because they aren't mindlessly clapping their hands together like a seal when Vegeta-sama does something "epic". Learn to have nuance.
I’m obviously referring to the fanboys in this thread. If you have legitimate complains, that’s fine. Learn how to read.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by J.T. Drago » Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:10 pm

While there's no doubt the writer of this episode is probably one of the weakest of the bunch, I have of wonder why Toei would let someone who has never wrote Dragon Ball before write such a major episode ('sides 119), especially near the end of both the arc and series. Dunno how the reception is in Japan (I did just see the poll posted earlier and I'm a little bit surprised, lol) but I'm hoping that people aren't giving the writer hell or anything of the sort. Criticism is fine though, imo.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Hawk9211 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:54 pm

precita wrote:The ironic thing is outside of kazenshuu, this ep seems better received in other places. Look at reddit's DB review thread, Resetera's Super thread, or various other anime/videogame forums that have DB super topics, it seems better received from what I've been seeing than here. I haven't checked the twitter/tumblr crowd but it seems a bit more mixed there.
Well,this site has a very density of hardcore fans(including me),who like to pick apart every thing.
Why power levels are important?
The genre and roots of dragon ball

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Kaiosama » Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:13 am

TameImpala wrote:
Artorias wrote:
TameImpala wrote:Bunch of Goku fanboy/crybabies in this forum. Finally someone other than Goku is getting some awesome screen time, and you guys just bitch about it.
Oh yea. It's clearly just because we hate Vegeta. It's not like we've brought up legitimate writing criticisms. Nah, it's just cuz Vegeta sucks apparently.

It has nothing to do with Vegeta getting shine, it has everything to do with the WRITING surrounding the shine. People aren't "Goku fanboys" just because they aren't mindlessly clapping their hands together like a seal when Vegeta-sama does something "epic". Learn to have nuance.
I’m obviously referring to the fanboys in this thread. If you have legitimate complains, that’s fine. Learn how to read.
Five posts on this website and you're already generalizing and attacking other posters? I would tread carefully unless you want to get flagged by the moderators. A lot of people have legitimate criticisms with the writing. Prominent members in the community. I don't think it's just "Goku fanboys".

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by TameImpala » Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:37 am

Kaiosama wrote:
TameImpala wrote:
Artorias wrote:
Oh yea. It's clearly just because we hate Vegeta. It's not like we've brought up legitimate writing criticisms. Nah, it's just cuz Vegeta sucks apparently.

It has nothing to do with Vegeta getting shine, it has everything to do with the WRITING surrounding the shine. People aren't "Goku fanboys" just because they aren't mindlessly clapping their hands together like a seal when Vegeta-sama does something "epic". Learn to have nuance.
I’m obviously referring to the fanboys in this thread. If you have legitimate complains, that’s fine. Learn how to read.
Five posts on this website and you're already generalizing and attacking other posters? I would tread carefully unless you want to get flagged by the moderators. A lot of people have legitimate criticisms with the writing. Prominent members in the community. I don't think it's just "Goku fanboys".
Like I said, I don’t mind legitimate criticism. I understand not liking a character, but saying stuff like “Goku is the main protagonist so he should get the spotlight all the time.” He already gets a lot of the spotlight, so it’s always fun when another character gets some awesome scenes.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Kogu 87 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:30 am

Very surprised by the hate this episode is getting.
I thoroughly enjoyed it, and loved the conflict between toppo and vegeta. At that point in time, they were in complete opposition of one another in terms of creed.

Jiren's disappointment in Toppo was great to see. He praised Vegeta for having more pride than the very leader of the "pride" troopers.

Finally, I have to say that Jiren's tornado kick to Goku's face mid sentence will forever be etched in my memory :lol:.
"Oh dear...."

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:31 am

Comments on this episode:

- Again it says Universe 7 is led by Goku and Universe 11 is led by Jiren. Does "led" in this case simply refer to the strongest fighters on the team and not the actual team leaders?
- So wait, you're meaning to tell me that Katchi Katchin, the supposedly strongest material in the multiverse, is so fragile that it will shatter and collapse just because the base holding it up was destroyed?
- Yeah, burying him in rocks. That's sure to work. Even with Katchi Katchin rocks, I really doubt that's an effective strategy.
- The animation here is really lazy, reusing the same 2-second clip a dozen times in a row
- Was that part right there deliberately reminiscent of when Freeza destroyed his own Death Ball against Trunks in the anime?
- An imprisonment sphere? Awesome, nice to see one of Freeza's best classic techniques return
- Is throwing rocks at him really the best strategy here? Freeza only did that to Goku to toy with him and test him. Why is it being treated like a serious attack now?
- Is Freeza too exhausted to use Golden form again now or something?
- Toppo's blasts look to be moving awfully slowly there...
- Okay, the shot right there showed Toppo firing a bunch of blasts from his fingertips, then it cut to him with his palms outward firing singular large blasts, then it went back to him firing smaller finger blasts... shoddy editing
- Vegeta's flashback/vision is kind of cheesy or badly done IMO... the music and how it transitions kind of ruins it
- That's easier said than done, Belmod. He has to be very careful not to hit Vegeta directly with that stuff.
- Despite some of the complaints I've heard, I think Vegeta defeating Toppo here actually makes sense. He was simply emitting so much ki that Toppo's hakai energy couldn't destroy enough of it fast enough, and if he pushed too hard he risked destroying Vegeta, so he was forced to hold back. He was also inexperienced with the power and seemingly didn't know how to use the direct version of it. Still I'm really disappointed that Toppo didn't do more.
- He can barely stand, but how much you want to bet he'll be back to using full power by the next episode (which is only one minute or less in real time?)
- I agree with Jiren here. Toppo lasted so long and showed off so much power but did he even score a single elimination? No. That is pathetic. They should have at least let him eliminate 17.
- Convenient how the pillar in the center that marks the time is one of the few parts of the ring that's left undamaged...
- At first when I saw one of those floating rocks in front of Jiren I thought it was another injury like the one Hit gave him, lol
- So where's Freeza? Hiding and preparing to betray his team or something?
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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by JazzMazz » Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:39 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:Comments on this episode:

- Again it says Universe 7 is led by Goku and Universe 11 is led by Jiren. Does "led" in this case simply refer to the strongest fighters on the team and not the actual team leaders?
I think so, the lead warrior of each universe is usually strongest, or the ace warrior by the looks of it. Also, Goku being the lead warrior for universe 7 was actually established in episode 71.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by kemuri07 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:33 am

Didn't hate this episode but man, MAN, that was some bullshit.

Because nothing fucking matters anymore. At this point, I'm literally just expecting Vegeta to get Ultra Instinct because "the fans will be happy." That's the mindset that's going on with the writing: OH boy, what can we do to make this specific fandom happy? And considering that Vegeta's power boost came two episodes after he already got a power boost--that is some fucking nonsense. And if it wasn't for the fact that I'm such an avid fanboy of Z, I'd probably drop this show in a heartbeat. I'm only here because I'm curious to see how Super ends, but I could care less about anything else that goes on. Because nothing matters.

Shit, Z had restraint. Z had a general idea of the level field between characters. That's what brought tension to the show. When you're watching the Namek saga, the tension comes from watching characters try to out run and outmaneuver characters who were far stronger than them. And when a character did power up--it meant something. It was the culmination of episodes of character development which made it so satisfying when our heroes finallly got the better of the bad guys. I get that some of you guys are just happy to have a Dragonball show on television, but I think we deserve better than this.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Gig » Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:57 am

I feel all the hate against this episode excessive.
It's not one of the best episodes, but not even one of the worst IMO.

I don't find so strange that "modern" Vegeta can get a powerup thinking about his family AND his pride... They probably made a mistake by exceeding with the powerup range, because Vegeta appeares "owning" Toppo too much, thus nullifying the intimidating mood Toppo got in the previous episode and making the use of a life-risking technique appear overkill. It looked like he was able to beat him with just his ki-powered punches and kicks...

However...

MAYBE the fact that SSB uses god ki may in part explain why "hakai" is less effective against Vegeta's attacks, while it was able to nullify any attack from 17 or Frieza effortlessy. But since noone of the spectators did say a word about it, that only remains an hypotesis.

Also, I can guess there is a reason Toppo is still just an "apprentice" GoD: he has not yet reached the level of Belmod! Also, maybe he had trouble using the right quantity of "hakai" power to win without killing his opponent. But again, without statements from the characters, this is just speculation.

In the end, I found it entertaining enough. And tv shows are just entertainment... :)
Last edited by Gig on Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:30 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Lek » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:04 am

I really enjoyed the episode and don't understand the backlash. Other than the replay in the beginning, it was an entertaining episode. Although I thought Freeza would be out cold for a minute or two, coming back as the ace, when the situation gets desperate.

But when it comes to Vegeta being able to overpower Toppo, it's not like this has never happened before. Back in BoG he had his "my Bulma" moment as well and nobody questioned that. So the foundation for this new occasion has been laid in my opinion.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Torturephile » Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:07 am

Lek wrote:But when it comes to Vegeta being able to overpower Toppo, it's not like this has never happened before. Back in BoG he had his "my Bulma" moment as well and nobody questioned that. So the foundation for this new occasion has been laid in my opinion.
That's because Vegeta couldn't beat Beerus even with his rage boost all of a sudden like he did with Toppo. I also recall a few people wondering why Vegeta did better than Goku against Beerus when Vegeta's form was much inferior power-wise.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by kemuri07 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:29 am

It was less Vegeta overpowering Beerus and more that Vegeta took him by surprise with a burst of power.
Gig wrote:I feel all the hate against this episode excessive.
It's not one of the best episodes, but not even one of the worst IMO.

I don't find so strange that "modern" Vegeta can get a powerup thinking about his family AND his pride... They probably made a mistake by exceeding with the powerup range, because Vegeta appeares "owning" Toppo too much, thus nullifying the intimidating mood Toppo got in the previous episode and making the use of a life-risking technique appear overkill. It looked like he was able to beat him with just his ki-powered punches and kicks...

However...

MAYBE the fact that SSB uses god ki may in part explain why "hakai" is less effective against Vegeta's attacks, while it was able to nullify any attack from 17 or Frieza effortlessy. But since noone of the spectators did say a word about it, that only remains an hypotesis.

Also, I can guess there is a reason Toppo is still just an "apprentice" GoD: he has not yet reached the level of Belmod! Also, maybe he had trouble using the right quantity of "hakai" power to win without killing his opponent. But again, without statements from the characters, this is just speculation.


In the end, I found it entertaining enough. And tv shows are just entertainment... :)
See, this is something that I call "Calculus." It's when fans have to do the work that the anime should have done, providing in-story logic just so that things "make sense." Outside of that, it's bad storytelling. Giving Vegeta an unspecified well of power is lazy because now anytime the writers back themselves into a corner, all they need to do is have any (saiyan) character get upset, give off some speech stating their moral purpose, and (bam) new transformation. Remember when there used to be consequences for going all out? Hell, they even refrenced said moment in the episode, when Vegeta blows himself up to take out Buu? Here: it returns as lazy fanservice. So we can get a split second of Piccolo idiotically wondering whether or not Vegeta killed himself, all before revealing that lol nothing happened. because nothing matters. Because Goku and Vegeta are in constant godmode, they can do anything. And every explanation will be due to the power of the gods.

Again, it's fine if you enjoy this shit. But Dragonball Super is trash. sometimes entertaining trash, but trash nonetheless.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by BlueBasilisk » Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:55 am

Gig wrote:I feel all the hate against this episode excessive.
It's not one of the best episodes, but not even one of the worst IMO.

I don't find so strange that "modern" Vegeta can get a powerup thinking about his family AND his pride... They probably made a mistake by exceeding with the powerup range, because Vegeta appeares "owning" Toppo too much, thus nullifying the intimidating mood Toppo got in the previous episode and making the use of a life-risking technique appear overkill. It looked like he was able to beat him with just his ki-powered punches and kicks...

However...

MAYBE the fact that SSB uses god ki may in part explain why "hakai" is less effective against Vegeta's attacks, while it was able to nullify any attack from 17 or Frieza effortlessy. But since noone of the spectators did say a word about it, that only remains an hypotesis.

Also, I can guess there is a reason Toppo is still just an "apprentice" GoD: he has not yet reached the level of Belmod! Also, maybe he had trouble using the right quantity of "hakai" power to win without killing his opponent. But again, without statements from the characters, this is just speculation.

In the end, I found it entertaining enough. And tv shows are just entertainment... :)
Just chiming in for this, but Frieza's recruitment episodes showed that those purple balls of hakai energy can be overcome with sufficient power. Base Goku was hurt and couldn't over power it, Golden Frieza was able to overpower that same one and shoot another out of the dog guy's hand with a death beam, and Beerus blew away the one that troubled Goku and Frieza with a puff of air. Vegeta's a lot stronger than Frieza and 17 so that checks out.

Edit: It also jives with Rou's statement that Sidra might not find Frieza so easy to destroy and Belmod being unable to defeat Jiren. If it was as easy as whipping out a hakai for an instant win, neither of those statements would make sense.
Last edited by BlueBasilisk on Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Gig » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:11 am

Well, they have omitted to explain even more blatant things... people will continue scratching their head about why was Jimeze (an Yadratian) in an universe different than 6 or 7 for a long time.

However, viewing an italian video review about the episode, I just realized the link which explains the reason why writers decided to use the final explosion technique (a thing that puzzled me):
Toppo throws away who he is, to achieve the power necessary for his goal. Why does this make Vegeta so angry? Because HE did the same thing when accepted to be controlled by Babidi in exchange of a powerup! Vegeta has changed in these years, he cannot accept a such compromise anymore, probably he feels ashamed for accepting it back then. So this draws a link between this fight and Majin Vegeta, which writers decided to stress by using that specific attack.
The fact that Vegeta has grown both phyically and mentally (SSB requires perfect ki control), and the fact this time he doesn't need to vaporize his enemy are enough to deduce this time he cared to keep some ki to do not die.
Trivia: the video mentioned that in some DB videgames, after performing the technique, Vegeta remains with 1 HP.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Dbzfan94 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:15 am

Gig wrote:Well, they have omitted to explain even more blatant things... people will continue scratching their head about why was Jimeze (an Yadratian) in an universe different than 6 or 7 for a long time.

However, viewing an italian video review about the episode, I just realized the link which explains the reason why writers decided to use the final explosion technique (a thing that puzzled me):
Toppo throws away who he is, to achieve the power necessary for his goal. Why does this make Vegeta so angry? Because HE did the same thing when accepted to be controlled by Babidi in exchange of a powerup! Vegeta has changed in these years, he cannot accept a such compromise anymore, probably he feels ashamed for accepting it back then. So this draws a link between this fight and Majin Vegeta, which writers decided to stress by using that specific attack.
The fact that Vegeta has grown both phyically and mentally (SSB requires perfect ki control), and the fact this time he doesn't need to vaporize his enemy are enough to deduce this time he cared to keep some ki to do not die.
Trivia: the video mentioned that in some DB videgames, after performing the technique, Vegeta remains with 1 HP.
Yeah and that “1 hp” thing is rendered null when we see him go full power again next episode.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Gig » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:21 am

A thing I haven't understood about Toppo, is... why was a Pride Trooper training to become a God of Destruction in the first place? To better destroy the EVIL and preserve JUSTICE?

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:27 am

Gig wrote:A thing I haven't understood about Toppo, is... why was a Pride Trooper training to become a God of Destruction in the first place? To better destroy the EVIL and preserve JUSTICE?
We don't know for sure. Toppo's high power seems independent of what gains he made whilst channeling Hakai Energy.

He certainly fits the strength requirement needed to be a good Hakaishin. But his demeanour speaks differently.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Gig » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:32 am

Dbzfan94 wrote: Yeah and that “1 hp” thing is rendered null when we see him go full power again next episode.
About that, I can only hope that 17, who seems to have taken some damage, will give some of his energy to Vegeta.
While it has been said that Androids do not have "ki" like the others, various times it looked like their energy worked the same way, so maybe they can pass such energy to other people.
But the next episode preview seems to say that 17 will be very busy against Jiren, I don't know if he will have the time for doing that (maybe Jiren will target him to prevent him from doing to).

PS: 1 HP is for a videogame about Majin Bu Saga Vegeta, just to allow the player to somehow win the game. A such move perfomed by SSB Vegeta may leave him with 50 HP, who knows! ^_^ Future DB games may tell...
Last edited by Gig on Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Super Episode 126 (4 February 2018)

Post by Dbzfan94 » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:35 am

Gig wrote:
Dbzfan94 wrote: Yeah and that “1 hp” thing is rendered null when we see him go full power again next episode.
About that, I can only hope that 17, who seems to have taken some damage, will give some of his energy to Vegeta.
While it has been said that Androids do not have "ki" like the others, various times it looked like their energy worked the same way, so maybe they can pass such energy to other people.
But the next episode preview seems to say that 17 will be very busy against Jiren, I don't know he will have the time for doing that (maybe Jiren will target him to prevent him from doing to).

PS: 1 HP is for a videogame about Majin Bu Saga Vegeta, just to allow the player to somehow win the game. A such move perfomed by SSB Vegeta may leave him with 50 HP, who knows! ^_^ Future DB games may tell...
Yes I know what you mean. You’re grasping at straws by saying “maybe he has more than 1hp.” When the show strictly said Vegeta is exhausted and can barely stand. There’s no justifiable way he can go from that to full power SSJ Bluer-Than-Blue crap form in less than a minute

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