Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

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Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by Herms » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:32 pm

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General Discussion for Dragon Ball Super Episode 127, aired 11 February 2018

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迫りくる障壁!希望を託す最後のバリア
Semari-kuru Shōheki! Kibō wo Takusu Saigo no Baria
The Approaching Wall! The Final Barrier of Hope!!


Summary:

As Jiren powers up, he is surrounded in an intense, fiery energy. The Omni-Kings are amazed that Jiren seems to be on fire, while Goku and 17 are likewise impressed that he was hiding such monstrous strength. Vegeta on the other hand mocks Jiren for only getting serious now that all his teammates are gone; he cockily charges Jiren, forcing Goku and 17 to join in the attack. Even in a 3-against-1 fight though, Jiren still proves too much for them to handle. As Jiren closes in to kick Vegeta, 17 knocks him out of the way, taking the brunt of the attack himself. Rather than be thankful though, Vegeta is annoyed at 17’s “unnecessary” action; Jiren is his to defeat!

More fighting proves equally ineffective; when Jiren blocks Vegeta’s punch, he compliments it as being good enough to defeat Toppo, but not enough to beat him. Jiren retaliates with one of his own fiery punches, then follows up by erasing Goku’s Kamehameha with a mere uppercut. However, Jiren is caught off-guard by 17, who hits him with a point-blank range from behind. 17 is caught up in the explosion from his own attack and injured, but he still manages to wound Jiren in the back. Angered, Jiren counterattacks, but 17 retreats and joins back up with Goku.

While 17 is only barely OK, this last exchange has demonstrated that even Jiren can be damaged if hit unguarded by such a large attack. If they use coordinated attacks to create an opening and then attack Jiren with an even bigger attack, they might be able to win. Goku and Vegeta will go draw Jiren’s attention, leaving 17 to prepare another attack. As Goku and Vegeta furiously tag-team Jiren, 17 fires off a blast, but Jiren won’t fall for the same trick twice, and easily counters. Jiren rushes at 17, who creates a series of barriers to block him, but he smashes through them all and attacks.

As Jiren blocks a beam from 17, Goku tells Vegeta that the three of them should attack him all at once. While 17 continues his beam attack, Goku and Vegeta fire their own beams at Jiren from different directions, but Jiren blocks all three beams with his fiery aura. With the rest of the team knocked to the ground, Freeza suddenly reappears and attacks Jiren, determined to kill him regardless of the tournament rules. Though he becomes Golden Freeza once more, Jiren wastes no time knocking him off into the distance, where he passes out again.

With Freeza beaten, Jiren is blasted by 17, who’s back on his feet. Jiren wonders what 17 can do on his own, but 17 refuses to give up. Universe 7 will survive! Belmod however asks 17 what he will do if his universe survives. What will he use the Super Dragon Balls to wish for? 17 explains that he wants to wish for a cruise ship so he can travel around with his family, and he asks what Jiren wants to wish for. While 17 had assumed Jiren was solely interested in being crowned the strongest fighter, Jiren admits that he does indeed have a wish in mind. Hearing this, Khai seems surprised, but Belmod understands. He decides it’s time to explain how Jiren came to be so obsessed with strength.

It turns out that when Jiren was a small child, his parents were killed by an evil-doer. Jiren himself was rescued by a man who went on to become his martial arts master. As he trained under his master, Jiren gained a number of comrades, and they fought together when that same evil-doer returned. However, the enemy was still too strong for them, and many of Jiren’s comrades were killed, including his master. Even his surviving comrades abandoned Jiren, causing him to view trust and emotions as worthless and place his faith in strength alone. It was Jiren’s thirst for strength and his solitude that attracted Belmod to him.

17 thinks he’s figured out what Jiren’s wish must be; he had thought Jiren was nothing more than a killing machine, but in fact he has his human side. However, 17 thinks that Jiren ultimately was just using his comrades for his own ends; he is obsessed with the past, and probably thinks that if he wins he can return things to the way they were. Jiren responds that strength is absolute, and forgives everything, even the past. Telling 17 to lament his own weakness, he launches a giant blast towards the U7 team.

17 does his best to hold back the blast and protect the immobilized Goku and Vegeta, but he is clearly not strong enough. Goku and 18 both urge 17 to run and save himself, but he refuses. He tells Goku and Vegeta that he’s giving up on the cruise ship. Instead, he’s going to sacrifice himself for others, a pleasingly human action. Placing a pair of barriers around Goku and Vegeta, 17 creates a large explosion that rocks the arena.

The Omni-Kings wonder if Goku and co. have lost, but when the dust clears they can see that Goku and Vegeta were protected by 17’s barriers (Freeza is once again out of sight and his fate unmentioned). Jiren tells the two that they should be thankful 17 sacrificed himself for people as weak as them. As their barriers burst and they topple down to the arena floor, Goku and Vegeta realize that 17 planned this so that the two of them would have time to recover their stamina.

Elder Kaioshin explains how in that last moment, 17 not only put up barriers but also self-destructed in order to erase Jiren’s attack. Since 17 self-destructed, the Great Priest announces that Jiren will receive no penalty (in other words, Jiren hasn’t violated the tournament rule against killing). While 18 is overcome with grief, in the arena Vegeta struggles back to his feet, claiming that he’s more than enough to handle Jiren.

3 minutes remain in the Tournament of Power.
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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by TheShadowEmperor8055 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:54 pm

Jiren having that Batman-like backstory, unable to let go of the past. Juxtaposed with Goku's Superman-like backstory. And yet Jiren may be the closest thing to Superman we see in Dragon Ball in terms of pure raw strength, but is closer to Batman in terms of personality (but Batman is at least more expressive than Jiren is though). Interesting. Jiren's wish is also implied (possibly being to erase the past, which does go against his principles in the manga), but not overtly stated. Hmm. :think: Jiren's backstory makes the manga stating that Jiren doesn't kill (iirc), much like Batman, a very nice touch. Perhaps because he'd view himself as no better than the one who killed his parents, again, just like Batman. "Justice", as he and the rest of U11 say. To think the GoD and Angel of Jiren's universe resemble Joker and Harley Quinn. Add these to the list of these subtle DC references in Dragon Ball. :lol: So, Jiren loses everything and strength is the only thing he had left to hold on to, and he's obsessed with getting stronger. Which makes him no different than Goku and Vegeta in that regard. And all three are capable of taking down a Hakaishin.

As for the actual episode, there was not a lot of... good fighting choreography in the episode. I felt some punches Goku and Vegeta threw at Jiren were hidden by their auras.

Also, the heck was that Freeza? :lol: The reference to Namek again was ok, but why isn't he eliminated already? :lol: I've loved him in the tournament but now he's obsolete at this stage. I wouldn't mind a surprise from him again though.

Didn't expect them to kill off 17 (poor 18, losing her brother). I guess Goku now knows what he should wish for, eh? Though 17 was able to damage Jiren, after no one else, not was even able to do so? Things just don't make much sense anymore. But 17 should definitely get that cruise. He's been an unexpected gem in this arc as a whole. Hopefully Bulma can hook him up. But man, 17's been killed as much as Piccolo and Krillin at this point. Z, GT and Super he's died at some time in each show.

The episode was... ok, I guess? I'm pretty much waiting on UI Goku vs Jiren at this point.

Random thought, but can't the Super Dragon Balls bring back, 17, U6 and even North Kaio all back in one wish? Since they can "grant any wish"?

Vegeta's getting pummeled next episode. I'm guessing they've inserted that image of Bulma for us to sympathize for Vegeta, and (hopefully) we hear a little more Hiromi Tsuru...
Last edited by TheShadowEmperor8055 on Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by chickensguys » Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:57 pm

Great Episode, I loved the music and the choreography but I thought Freezer anger seemed more intense than usual. Not sure why he was so pissed, but it sure looked cool. Also the fact that No 17 killed himself certainly increases the stakes and importance of the event
Last edited by chickensguys on Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by jeffbr92 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:57 pm

Good episode, a little bothered that 17 stood Jiren for a long period, but whatever... Didn't expect his sacrifice though
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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by TysonWine » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:00 pm

What's the reference to Namek with Frieza this episode? I can't seem to remember, but I've heard it mentioned a few times.

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by obiwan23s » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:00 pm

I really hope 17 gets wished back after going out like that. After all the times the ToP has passed on actually killing someone off, they follow through with 17. He had some really great moments in this tournament.

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by TheOtherDude » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:01 pm

I can’t help but feel that they keep nerfing Jirens strength and it’s really frustrating me.. it’s hard for me to have a high opinion of this episode when there’s just so much ridiculousness going on with the scaling.

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by BrolyKale » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:02 pm

Power scaling is always bad so I don't give a crap about it.

But I feel so bad for Jiren... :cry: I just want to hug him. The episode was cool. Nothing to say about C-17, he has been doing pretty well since the beginning, but I'm still indifferent about him. He did good so its good.
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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by Artorias » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:02 pm

Well this show continues to be the most inconsistent thing I've ever watched. After a pretty bad episode last week...that was genuinely great. Thoroughly enjoyed almost everything. The fighting, while not technically too impressive in terms of animation, was really engaging, and had a nice flow to it. And 17...man. MVP of this tournament for sure. What a great, legitimately unexpected moment. And I REALLY enjoyed the shit talking he was pulling against Jiren. Despite how random their little conversation seemed, since they have had literally zero interactions up until now and have no chemistry or connection, it still landed for me.

On the other hand, Jiren's backstory could've not have been more generic, contrived, and poorly executed. We wait ALL this time...and THAT'S what they give us? You couldn't get more cliched if you tried. Just terrible. And what's even worse is that some people are somehow IMPRESSED with that?! Forgive me for being a little hostile, but have you ever seen another piece of fiction in your life? Seriously. Because that is the only type of person I can imagine that was truly interested in that lackluster excuse for a backstory even a little bit.

Still though, I loved pretty much everything else in this. Solid stuff. Hopefully next week can finally let Super deliver two good episodes in a row, which in my opinion hasn't happened since 113 and 114.

Also to be clear, this episode suffers from the same garbage I've come to expect from this arc and Super in general. The powerscaling is still garbage. Jiren is still garbage. The instant recovery for characters is still garbage. But I categorize all of that as more of a general problem with this arc, more so than specific issues worth focusing on in this episode. I've just kinda accepted that Super doesn't give a shit about that kind of stuff and moved on.
Last edited by Artorias on Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:10 pm, edited 7 times in total.

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by CriticalThinker » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:04 pm

17 sure did go out with a bang!

[spoiler]Jokes aside, 17 did pretty damn great this arc and I'm glad he lasted as long as he did.Neat to see Jiren's backstory but I still don't care much for him. Also gonna make a guess that the evil doer Jiren couldn't beat comes back in the next series. Also Freeza sure was angry this episode like I don't even get why he was so mad at Jiren. Like he seemed pretty chill after Toppo beat him and yet was absolutely furious at Jiren. Dunno just stuck out to me as a bit odd.[/spoiler]

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by OLKv3 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:04 pm

TheOtherDude wrote:I can’t help but feel that they keep nerfing Jirens strength and it’s really frustrating me.. it’s hard for me to have a high opinion of this episode when there’s just so much ridiculousness going on with the scaling.
Yeah he's been nerfed hardcore. He's also been turned into Jin Kazama, complete with chasing Ogre
I liked the episode though. 17's sacrifice was sudden and shocking

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:06 pm

Episode was pretty great. I'm liking what they've been doing with Jiren, and having Belmod tell the story was much better than it would have been if Jiren had done it himself. I find it interesting that for all the obvious Joker influences and the occasional creepy atmosphere they give him, he seems like a pretty chill guy.

My biggest "complaint" is that I wish the angels would speak up more often. When was the last time Whis said more than a single line or so? 110?

17 has been pretty great throughout the arc; it's a shame to see him go. Maybe it's a trick, and he'll show up at the end, surprising everyone? Wishful thinking, I know :lol:

I want to know more about Jiren and the Pride Troopers. Toppo had his sad expressions during Belmod's story; was this new to him, or did he already know? I'd like to explore that relationship a bit further.

All in all, this was fun. I seem to be in the minority in liking Super Blueper Vegeta, and I'm looking forward to seeing him get the shit beat out of him next episode.
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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by TheShadowEmperor8055 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:08 pm

Artorias wrote: On the other hand, Jiren's backstory could've not have been more generic, contrived, and poorly executed. We wait ALL this time...and THAT'S what they give us? You couldn't get more cliched if you tried. Ffs man. Just terrible. And what's even worse is that some people are somehow IMPRESSED with that?! Forgive me for being a little hostile, but have you ever seen another piece of fiction in your life? Seriously. Because that is the only type of person I can imagine that was truly interested in that lackluster excuse for a backstory even a little bit.
To be perfectly honest, I agree his backstory was really cliché. As much as I analyzed it, I didn't really feel much for it because I've seen things like that before many times.

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by jeffbr92 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:08 pm

TysonWine wrote:What's the reference to Namek with Frieza this episode? I can't seem to remember, but I've heard it mentioned a few times.
When he said Jiren should be killed by his hands it's quite the same line he said to Goku after he was leaving Namek
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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by Jigurashi » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:08 pm

Thought it was cool nothing amazing but not bad. I do like that Jiren's got the Batman himself ast whole Goku has the Superman one. His past was generic and standard but I liked that it did give him some depth and revealed why he's so stoic, reserved, and cold. 17 was cool this episode himself. The fighting itself wasn't anything to write home about but Jiren boring Freeza was just funny. Have no interest in next week

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by MKCSTEALTH » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:09 pm

Phew. What an episode

There was a lot I loved in this episode. Loved the teamwork between 17, Goku, and Vegeta. Crazy seeing Frieza again. Hope he's not just gonna become a meme and get thrown around every few scenes an episode.

Now the big stuff: Getting insight on Jiren. He seems like a much more complex character. Interesting they never touched on his wish. Guess they're really keeping that under wraps. Plus some awesome lore building for the future.

And 17, man...i figured this would be his last hurrah but did not expect a full sacrifice like that. Will be interesting to see how the wish will play out at the end.

Only gripes I had with this episode was the animation felt stiff at points. And the whole nonsense of Vegeta just getting up and charging Jiren when Beerus was like "he can barely stand" last episode.

Still, really good episode. I feel next week will be filler but then we get the big finale

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:09 pm

Quite a shockingly fantastic episode.

Freeza coming out of nowhere, dropkicking Jiren and then going berserk on him was awesome and hysterical. And even better, it was also so in-character. Freeza is a guys who loses his cool when he gets his shit pushed in, so it doesn't surprise me that despite his previous intentions of not fighting Jiren, he just went "fuck it" and decided to fight him out of anger and pride from being battered by Toppo.

#17 being killed caught me off guard so damn much. But with how well #17 has been handled in the arc, I couldn't think a more fitting way for him to depart from the tournament. He died making sure that Universe 7 still had a chance to live. Android 17's return in Super has to go down as one of the best comebacks for a character in all of Dragon Ball. He was the MVP of this entire arc.

I found Jiren's backstory to very standard, but an intriguing introspective of Jiren's personality and motives. And most notably concerning his obsession with strength. Jiren believes that strength is the answer to everything based on his own traumatic experiences. He abandoned everything that made him "human" so that he could embrace the one thing that he felt was the most valuable in his mind: power. He's as strong as he is because that's all that matter to him. It's also explains why he's so stoic and emotionless most of the time. It's kinda meta when you think about. A person who is so drawn to strength and power, that they become solely focused on who can throw the biggest stick that nothing else matters to them. There are lot of fans who think like this.

The cast talking about how Vegeta was out of energy in the last episode, only to pop into his beyond SSJB form right at the beginning of the episode made me more amused than annoyed. Like, the main cast overcome stamina issue insanely quick nowadays. We've come a long from Goku needing a minute to power SSJ3 to the max after burning out on the form.

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:09 pm

This episode was an improvement over last week. It wasn’t my favorite episode of this tournament (that probably goes to episode 118), but there was nothing that particularly bothered me about it, outside of the pointless commentary from the Zen-Ohs at the very beginning. While I’m not sure a tragic backstory (especially a very generic one) was really what I was looking for with Jiren, I suppose it’s better than nothing. Also, 17 sacrificing himself works pretty well from an emotional standpoint, especially given that he’s the one fighter (besides Freeza) from team U7 who isn’t in the epilogue to the manga.

On another note, it looks like we might be hearing a new actress for Bulma next week.
Last edited by WittyUsername on Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by Kataphrut » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:10 pm

I'd forgotten about the cruise until this point. Vegeta and 17 have been diametrically opposed in terms of writing quality this arc, but at least Vegeta has a decent wish lined up if nothing else. Never has the difference in how the two have been written been so apparent in the contrast between this episode and the last one. Here, 17 plays it smart, reveals a new side to his personality, makes an effort to understand his opponent and actually dies in his heroic sacrifice. Vegeta did none of those things last episode, he's just a dog getting a biscuit for performing the same trick over and over.

That said, one thing this episode does unfortunately have in common with the last one is the poor handling of a potentially interesting motivation for their opponent due to having to rush things, which leads me to the Jiren flashback. I was wondering why people were blowing up about it on Twitter when the episode first aired, now I realise it's because they were watching without subtitles. The visuals made it look compelling, but that's ruined once you know that Belmod is spelling it out in the most generic way, right down to the villain being just "an evildoer". If you're going to crib from Batman, at least crib from the way good Batman stories tell the origin, which is to do it with minimal dialogue and show-not-tell.

One aspect about it I do like is that it introduces a character flaw for Jiren and contextualises the way he's been behaving throughout the entire story. Again, like with Toppo in the last two episodes, there was potential for good character conflict that was underutilised thanks to the show being so rushed. At least 17 was able to bring the interesting bits out of Jiren. It'll be interesting to see if we get any more of it once Goku re-enters the fray. I feel there are comparisons to be drawn between him and Jiren that 122 hinted at, but haven't been given much attention since.
Last edited by Kataphrut on Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by LightBing » Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:10 pm

It's really difficult to take the biggest moment of this episode seriously, when you started this episode by spitting in the face of the previous by having Vegeta immediately go Blue.
Why should #17's sacrifice matter when the supposed stakes are immediately disposed by the writers. What's damage, what's stamina, what's bloody common sense?

This isn't just bad writing, it's disrespect towards your audience and the product.

Regardless of that embarrassment, the action was average. I liked #17 sneak attack which makes sense because his energy can't be detected.
I really want to appreciate what #17 did because his character has been a surprise and very enjoyable. I'm finding it very hard right know, I'll try to watch this again and repress my need for logic.

Oh and kudos for the unexpected sacrifice.

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