Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by Artorias » Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:04 am

JazzMazz wrote:
KingKaash wrote:Wow nice episode! Good bounce back from Episode 126. It's crazy but this episode's best parts to me was involving Jiren, Frieza and Android 17.

-Loved the Jiren backstory. This is what we needed before the ToP started in the anime for guys like Jiren but I know the writers wanted to keep Jiren a major mystery until the end of the ToP. Now we understand why Jiren is so solemn. His parents, his master and his comrades were all murdered by an evildoer. And that's when he realized only strength can help him not emotion. I still don't get how someone from his race can get that insanely strong but I'll accept it. He did cast aside everything else. Like I've said before, I would love a Pride Troopers spin-off show.

-Frieza's anger was real intense. But Jiren squashed Golden Frieza like a bug. Insane strength displayed once again by Jiren.

-So Android 17 finally goes out (and I don't mean that sarcastically). To me, Android 17 was the MVP of the ToP. I don't know how many eliminations he got but he was by far the best character to follow throughout the ToP. He had good strength, great strategy and nice teamwork. I never expected that he would sacrifice himself like that. I can't believe he's gone. I know the show won't continue but hopefully he's wished back at the end.

Next episode looks like another whack Vegeta episode. Is he really going to fight Jiren in base?
From the preview, I don't think fight is the right word to describe the Jiren wrecking Vegeta's base form. I think his going to beaten to pulp. Its going to be another Vegeta vs Kid Buu.
With any luck, it'll be a parallel to that fight in both the fight itself and Vegeta's characterization. Maybe they'll rehash his development at the end of DBZ where he accepts that he needs to be the punching bag to protect the "number 1 Goku". Maybe we'll finally come full circle and get back to the way he was supposed to be this whole show.

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by Kataphrut » Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:08 am

Torturephile wrote:-I don't like how they have been handling Freeza in these recent episodes. This whole saga, the Freeza that we saw was different than the Freeza from before. This Freeza was more calculating and composed, seemingly knowing well his limitations and schemed to use Goku in order get to the super dragon balls and possibly overthrow the current lineup of gods. These past episodes, however, have him act as either his temperamental and impulsive Namek self, complete with references to that saga, or his ToP self, and his schemes have completely disappeared regardless. Every time he has been appearing recently, he gets kicked around for a few seconds before disappearing for the rest of the episode. Somehow this episode had him get mad at Jiren for no reason since they never fought at all.
Oh god, you're so right about this. Seeing Freeza destroyed by Toppo in 125 felt like natural comeuppance, now it's just repetitive and completely goes against his previous characterisation. Earlier, you got the impression he would do everything he could do avoid directly fighting Jiren, preferring to build Goku up as a pawn. Now he's just bum-rushing him. The constant references to Namek saga Freeza don't help either, surely the whole point of his return was that he was past that.

Herms made a tweet about this, wondering if Freeza getting beat up and knocked out was in the outline, but there was a miscommunication among the writers and all of them thought they were the ones that had to include a scene of it. The same might also explain why Vegeta keeps getting the same heroic resolve moment. It's really obvious the production's falling apart, which is such a shame after what had for a while been a really good arc.

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by Artorias » Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:09 am

Is anyone else absolutely terrified that they're going to have Freeza remain on the stage and have everyone in the show just forget that he's there, with him ultimately being the last one standing after Goku and Jiren double eliminate themselves? That would just be a downright embarrassingly horrible way for this to all end. It's OBVIOUS to anyone above the age of 8 that Freeza is still there, we aren't going to forget about him. It's not clever, Toei. You can't have THAT much of a disconnect between the knowledge of the audience and the characters in the show.

I feel like this is gonna be the Future Trunks arc all over again with the Zeno button, where I think "surely they won't do that...right? RIGHT?!" And then boom, it happens, and it's just as obvious as I feared. Toei, I beg you, please don't do that.

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by Kaiosama » Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:15 am

Artorias wrote:Is anyone else absolutely terrified that they're going to have Freeza remain on the stage and have everyone in the show just forget that he's there, with him ultimately being the last one standing after Goku and Jiren double eliminate themselves? That would just be a downright embarrassingly horrible way for this to all end. It's OBVIOUS to anyone above the age of 8 that Freeza is still there, we aren't going to forget about him. It's not clever, Toei. You can't have THAT much of a disconnect between the knowledge of the audience and the characters in the show.

I feel like this is gonna be the Future Trunks arc all over again with the Zeno button, where I think "surely they won't do that...right? RIGHT?!" And then boom, it happens, and it's just as obvious as I feared. Toei, I beg you, please don't do that.

Except this show is a Sunday morning cartoon in Japan meant for kids at or below the age of 8.

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by Artorias » Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:26 am

Kaiosama wrote:
Artorias wrote:Is anyone else absolutely terrified that they're going to have Freeza remain on the stage and have everyone in the show just forget that he's there, with him ultimately being the last one standing after Goku and Jiren double eliminate themselves? That would just be a downright embarrassingly horrible way for this to all end. It's OBVIOUS to anyone above the age of 8 that Freeza is still there, we aren't going to forget about him. It's not clever, Toei. You can't have THAT much of a disconnect between the knowledge of the audience and the characters in the show.

I feel like this is gonna be the Future Trunks arc all over again with the Zeno button, where I think "surely they won't do that...right? RIGHT?!" And then boom, it happens, and it's just as obvious as I feared. Toei, I beg you, please don't do that.

Except this show is a Sunday morning cartoon in Japan meant for kids at or below the age of 8.
That's not a good excuse. The fact that it's a kids show doesn't automatically mean it has to be stupid and bad. There are plenty of "kids" shows that are still clever and filled with legitimately good writing, including well...Dragon Ball and much of DBZ. There are plenty of contemporary anime that compete with DBS that are marketed towards young kids that go above and beyond the bare minimum that ignorant kids will deal with.

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by Michsi » Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:10 am

Wish I could say I called this, but I sure didn't think they'd actually do it.

There were also others that said before that 17 being pushed to the forefront so much, even after what was supposed to be "his moment of glory", was starting to become a bit suspicious and mentioned him getting killed once ep 127 title was revealed. What we first thought were the writers simply trying to make him one of the guys, since aside from Freeza, he was the only one who had no real connection with most of them and therefore needed the attention, now seems to have been just so that his self-sacrifice would have some weight. Did it work. Eeh..... It would've, had it been done a little bit better. One one hand, that the rest aren't particularly devastated is appropriate given how little death means to them now, but on the other, it feels a little emotionally flat and that's not good. Don' get me wrong, it's done better than Piccolo's sacrifice in the ROF arc, but still not quite the emotional moment it was supposed to be. I did like "I've given up on the cruise ship" line.
But who knows, maybe he made it and this is a red herring. He'll appear at the end and blast Jiren off the ring a the last second. I'd actually prefer like that.

As for Jiren himself. The backstory helps, but not by much. It's seems like your run-of-the-mill tragic backstory, but if there is one positivist thing about it, is that it explains why he is so emotionally detached from the others and why he is so determined to win. The winner/strongest gets everything is as simple message, but an effective one, especially for DB.
Last edited by Michsi on Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by dbzfan7 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:11 am

Well at least 17 got to participate in the whole episode, and not just show up for 5 minutes before being thrown out.
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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by ZenkaiBoosts » Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:32 am

I'm suprised no one else has memtioned this. When Jiren had them all knocked down. Toppo let out an angry/annoyed grunt, as if hes disappointed they arent putting up a better fight

There are 100% some feelings of animosity there

You have to figure, Toppo doesnt like Jiren constantly praising Vegeta for beating him. Jiren calling Toppo pathetic for basically selling out his morals for more power and still losing, probably stings.

Wouldnt it be AWESOME if Toppo realised the errors of selling out, accepted erasure, and started cheering for UI Perfect Goku to defeat Jiren?

Or at least Toppo getting a little happy when UI Perfect Goku hits Jiren

Toppo remarking "and you called me pathetic" lol

Remember it was Toppo himself who before all of this WARNED Jiren

"Son Goku continues to grow stronger"

They have clearly been displaying Jiren as someone whos cocky and arrogant.

That arrogance will cost him

Jiren shouldve heeded Toppo's warning about Son Goku

UI Perfect Goku will rise and "humble" Jiren.

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by ZenkaiBoosts » Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:37 am

I'm rewatching it now. Yep nothing has changed. I LOVE episode 127. One of my all time favorite episodes in Super. Dont care what anyone says, amaizing episode.

-The score or theme that plays during the opening 3 way battle (with the guitar playing) is sooooo amazing. Someone give me the name of that score or theme. I need it in my viens lol. I've been rewatching that battle again and again due to how melodic and epic the music was.

- Great fight scenes. Truly impeccable direction, story boarding, and pacing (the epic music playing during the opening fight kicked it up to whole other level of epic)

From 17 jumping in Vegeta's place and taking Jiren's kick for Vegeta (maybe that was early forshadowing of how 17 was always willing to sacrifice himself for others)

To Vegeta getting mad at the "andriod" for saving him from that blow. Vegeta then rushing Jiren, Jiren catching his punch, and blasting him through his stomach out of his blue form.

To Goku seeing that, going "Vegeta!!!" and rushing Jiren himself, only to get kicked backed by Jiren, but Goku then avoiding the same blow that got Vegeta, via teleporting and firing off his kamehameha from above Jiren (so epic) with Jiren powering up to his fireblazing aura to punch right through it and evaporate it. Wow

Then we see both Vegeta and Goku down and out. We were made to believe Jiren had taken 17 out of commision just seconds/minutes before.

Then as Jiren is walking toward Goku and Vegeta like the terminator "to finish them off"

Boom, it had all been building up and culminated into 17 re-appearing and catching Jiren off guard with a blast damaging him

The mighty Jiren finally showing signs of damage.

-Great direction and story boarding with such seamless flowing and transitioning between each fighter trying to get theit shots in at Jiren, only to be shot back down, only to finally catch him off guard and succeed for a moment.

It flows into phase 2 of the fight.

To them trying to replicate catching Jiren off guard again, only for Jiren to shut them down this time, being like, "nope, you wont ever catch me off guard twice in a row"

They each fire a big blast at Jiren. Blasts from 3 different directions coming in at Jiren. Wow. Jiren just powers up into his fire aura, and just completely evaporates the three blasts from each direction, while knocking them all down from his aura alone. Anyone who said Jiren was nerfed is factually wrong and wasnt paying attention. Incredible show of strength from Jiren

They are all down and out again. This time we are left to wonder, "they are all down. Whos going to step in this time"

And then boom, Frieza re-appears pissed off. Jiren handles him.

It flows into Belmond retelling Jiren's story.

Everything culminates into Andriod 17's touching and emotional sacrfice to protect Goku and give universe 7 a fighting chance.
UI Perfect Goku will not let 17 and his mourning sister go in vain.

-Truly flawless pacing, directing, and story boarding for this episode

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by emperior » Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:39 am

I liked this episode a lot actually. I didn't expect to see Android 17 sacrificing himself. He was a wonderful character this arc, I said it many times and I will repeat it, I'm glad he was brought back because I never cared for him in the past but he's now one of my favorite characters, and I wish to see him getting revived and have a important role again in the future.
Jiren's backstory was cool; it is nothing too complex but it hits the right points, and it explains well enough why Jiren is so obsessed with power and gives some interesting info about his personality. I don't get the comparision with Batman, they only share the "parents were killed by evil guy" part. I am curious to know if Jiren was ever able to avenge his parents, and what is wish exactly is. I also like his distorted view of power and the fact he stopped trusting anyone except himself when his friends turned their back on him - I find his lack of trust to anyone and his view that strength is all anyone needs to bring people to their side quite interesting concepts.
I wonder if Goku will ever be able to gain Jiren's trust. If a rebellion against the Gods will ever happen, I wish to see Jiren take part into it and eventually go under some character progression. There are a lot of good stuff they could do with Jiren's character, I definitely like him more now and am curious to see what will happen with him.

Things I disliked in this episode and I'm disliking with this arc in general is the seemingly endless stamina of Goku and Vegeta. It makes no sense to hype up the androids' infinite stamina as something extraordinary and then have Goku and Vegeta fire off countless Kamehamehas and Final Flashes like if they were the ones who got modified by Gero. I believe the two Saiyans actually used more energy throughout this whole tournament than the two androids. Hopefully next week Vegeta won't transform nor fire any ki blast, I just want to see him put up a badass fight with Jiren in his normal state out of raw motivation and pride, while Goku can recover some of his stamina for real. I also hate the new blue aura they gave Vegeta so the less he uses that transformation, the better it is for me and my eyes.

I'm also confused about what they want to do with Freeza. He has been getting the same treatment for the 3rd episode in a row. The homages are also getting quite annoying so I wish they could just stop with them and focus on new things to create new memorable scenes instead of always relying on the past.
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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by Zephyr » Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:02 am

It was nice that #17 sacrificed himself, but the execution was completely flaccid. I didn't really feel anything, and yet he's been one of my favorite things about this arc!

The stamina thing continues to throw suspension of disbelief out the window. Last episode, Vegeta uses an attack whose sole demarcating feature is that he uses all of the ki in his body like a bomb. And yet, he somehow survives it (would have been a good time for him to attain Ultra Instinct). But alright, he doesn't die from an inherently-suicidal attack, whatever. At least he's gotta be drained as fuck, for real this time, right? Nope, I guess not, he's just at full power. Again. A minute later. Again. And oh hey, it's nice to see Freeza get back up from being knocked out. Again. Only to be knocked back out again, but not actually eliminated yet. Again. I seriously can't fathom why they insist on dragging their feet through the mud with so few episodes remaining.

I do appreciate that they finally tried to give some character motivation for Jiren, but it's not terribly clear what it is he wants. Does he want to wish to fight the dude again? Does he want to bring his family back? Either way, I don't find it terribly compelling. It may have been a tad beneficial to introduce some character motivation, so that there's tension and conflict between two good causes, throughout the tournament, but that'd be a tad too smart, it seems.

What I'm probably the most disappointed about is the lack of there actually being anything fishy about Jiren's strength. This whole time, everyone's been commenting on his strength, and how "he's just strong, that's all there is to it", and how "Jiren just beats opponents, that's what he does", and that's been consistently striking me as odd. A good kind of odd. Like, deliberately odd. Like there's some creepy fuckery involved with his ridiculous strength.

Perhaps Belmod's been fucking with nature? Maybe's he's an experiment? Maybe's he's artificially enhanced? Maybe he's done some terribly ungodly shit to become terribly ungodly strong? With his motivation for revenge (I think? Not like it was terribly clear), it'd make a lot of sense for him to do something rash and reckless and strange in order to become really, really, really, ridiculously powerful. But I guess that was me reading too much between the lines, looking for subtext and subtlety in a story that can't even manage to pace itself competently. He just trained a whole lot.

Also, his ramblings about strength were vapid and incoherent to me. Even Zamasu's ramblings made sense, even if they weren't morally agreeable.

Maybe it was the long shift at work I had just prior to watching the episode, but I really wasn't feeling it. Perhaps I'll give it a rewatch soon, and see if my thoughts shake up at all.
Last edited by Zephyr on Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by AloversGaming » Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:16 am

Jiren's backstory never had the murderer of his family and friends stated to be defeated. Future arc should Super return? That would be great.

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by Raphael_Z » Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:36 am

Does anyone else has this bad feeling that Android 17 WON'T be resurrected?

"Oh, the reason why killing is not allowed is because if someone dies in the Tournament stage, they cannot be brought back not even with the Super Dragon Balls".

Call me naive but something about his death seemed kind of definitive to me (similar to how #16 died and was never brought back).

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by Cetra » Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:57 am

I wonder how many more episodes they need to bring out that some fans realize they are sometimes letting characters fly and do not use just dashing and blowbacks. Jiren was clearly slowly floating down at the beginning.
Also his backstory while being something I consider I a good start was so barren that they pretty much could have it left out and it would hardly matter to me. A base for me to work with but surely we will never get more than that.
And seriously? The trick to hit Jiren is a STRONG attack when he is UNGUARDED? That is all? Not this unguarded? The most obvious thing that apparently was never tried out before?
Also 17's "sacrifice" seemed a bit anti-climactic. I hope there will be something done. Same goes for Freeza because at this point he is just annoying me.
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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by DiegoBrando » Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:06 am

Boring and generic backstory for a boring and generic character. Checks out. I also love how they suddenly are portraying Jiren as ominous and kinda evil when he was never shown as such. It's like they realized at the last moment how boring he has been and are trying to come up with something to make him more interesting or to create some hostility between him and the heroes. And no matter how evil you want him to be, he just doesn't work. He's a member of the Pride troopers, a gang who wears matching spandex suits ffs. This character is the worst thing I have seen in DB. He might have barely worked in original DB as a gag, not as the main antagonist in a multiple universes (though it was as if only 2 were competing) tournament.

Is this it for Frieza? Utterly wasted. I know they brought him back because he was popular and all that, not because it makes sense or they had a story in mind, but I'm still dissapointed he didn't amount to anything. Vegeta going Blue again, just shows how nothing matters anymore. Characters can just take any damage and get back up on a whim. 17 using the dragonballs to wish for a cruise ship is dumb yet I find it amusing, as it gives me insight into the minds of how people who write this show operate. Goku being a dumb manchild at age 50+ has stopped being funny 100 episodes ago. And Vegetas shtick is getting annoying too.

All in all Super can't end fast enough.

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by Onibaku » Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:12 am

AloversGaming wrote:Jiren's backstory never had the murderer of his family and friends stated to be defeated. Future arc should Super return? That would be great.
Jiren's backstory was just there. I don't think the writers will base anything off that. It's just that they were reminded to add something to Jiren knowing how bland he's been so far.

Anyway, the episode was good and all but Vegeta's constant shit talking is getting into my nerves too much. I was rooting for Jiren the whole time he was fighting Vegeta. Little piece of shit should know his place for once for fucks sake.

And wow, I didnt expect the best character to get killed off... I just hope he'll get revived by the SDBs.

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by emperior » Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:18 am

AloversGaming wrote:Jiren's backstory never had the murderer of his family and friends stated to be defeated. Future arc should Super return? That would be great.
Maybe it will be revelead it was Belmod? Or else I agree, I would like to see this enemy in the future if he hasn't been defeated.
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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by Saturnine » Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:39 am

17 actually dying did catch me by surprise, that's for sure! Damn! Toei must be well aware of everyone's expectations and mixing stuff up on purpose. Great for drama and intensity, definitely.

As for base Vegeta hanging in against Jiren, that's sooo fucking Toei... They've been doing this sort of shit since forever. I really hate it, though at least here we have the justification of not being allowed to kill other competitors, so at least we can suspend our disbelief and think Jiren is suppressing himself.

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by HybridSaiyan » Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:12 am

Remember when Goku and everyone fought Broly? The more the fight went on, the more stamina everyone lost? Everyone Is fighting with Infinite stamina or something and its like Goku and Vegeta are not even getting hurt or injured against Jirens attacks.

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by ZenkaiBoosts » Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:13 am

Isnt it ironic,

17 sacrificed himself to save Goku, the very person he was programmed to kill

Super has some deep, thoughtful, touching moments

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