Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by Doctor. » Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:17 pm

fadeddreams5 wrote:I never said Goku is the only person who trains. On the contrary, I'm saying everyone and their mothers train in this series, so what makes Jiren so special? It is never stated anywhere that he was a prodigy. In fact, he got mopped by some unknown villain several times over. You could say he's trained for many more years than Goku, but then... why is he superior to Hit too, a man with a thousand years of experience and mastery over ****ing time itself?

Saiyans have higher fighting potential than any race. The ones from Universe 7 were just stupid. Goku himself is the biggest proof of this; he was the lowest of the low, and now he's the highest of the high.

While it's never stated whether Vegeta trained or not before Frieza killed him, if we take into consideration other DB works, we can see a child Vegeta training with saibamen in the Bardock special, easily disposing them.
Who cares how Jiren got this strong? It's a different universe, with different characters, different aliens, different planets, different threats, different methods of training and getting stronger and even different physics if you really want to get creative with it. How Jiren got this strong doesn't really matter. It's the why, which was butchered, that matters.

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by Xehanort » Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:29 pm

Doctor. wrote:Who cares how Jiren got this strong?
I do.
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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by fadeddreams5 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:35 pm

Doctor. wrote:
fadeddreams5 wrote:I never said Goku is the only person who trains. On the contrary, I'm saying everyone and their mothers train in this series, so what makes Jiren so special? It is never stated anywhere that he was a prodigy. In fact, he got mopped by some unknown villain several times over. You could say he's trained for many more years than Goku, but then... why is he superior to Hit too, a man with a thousand years of experience and mastery over ****ing time itself?

Saiyans have higher fighting potential than any race. The ones from Universe 7 were just stupid. Goku himself is the biggest proof of this; he was the lowest of the low, and now he's the highest of the high.

While it's never stated whether Vegeta trained or not before Frieza killed him, if we take into consideration other DB works, we can see a child Vegeta training with saibamen in the Bardock special, easily disposing them.
Who cares how Jiren got this strong? It's a different universe, with different characters, different aliens, different planets, different threats, different methods of training and getting stronger and even different physics if you really want to get creative with it. How Jiren got this strong doesn't really matter. It's the why, which was butchered, that matters.
Both matter because both are equally stupid. The Pride Troopers also train, I'm sure. But Jiren is stronger than a GoD and the GoD candidate because he trained really, really hard.
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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by DragonBallFoodie » Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:41 pm

Cypher wrote:The only part I had doubts about was where Jiren, alongside his master and say thirty other students, faces off against the 'evildoer' and most of them (including the master, who's presumably the strongest) get obliterated. Jiren then wants to have another go. The, like, eight remaining students say 'hell no, we just got demolished when there were about four times as many of us, are you nuts?' but it's made out that Jiren is a noble, valiant hero and his former comrades are disgraceful gutless pussies, rather than Jiren being an insane alien person and his former comrades just, you know, wanting NOT to be massacred when there's no reason to hope for victory.

Unless it's more like 'Jiren suggests they train for ten years then try again, but none of the others can be bothered' (I couldn't really tell from the episode), that part just kind of raised my eyebrows.
I can understand the issue here with that development, but the significant thing from it is that Jiren's friends refused to help him and he lost all trust and social skills.

While Jiren may have the most development of the Justice Force, it shows that he is just as flawed as his comrades.

If Jiren's evildoer is hyped up as the next antagonist in Super we may see more of this incident hopefully.
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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:57 pm

How did Android 17 self-destruct his body? Wasn't the explosive device of 17 removed at the end of the Cell arc?

Whatever. This episode is the Zamasu's arc (ep. 65-66) all over again. The protagonists should not be able to fight on-par with the superior antagonist, but somehow they can.
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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by GreatSaiyaJeff » Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:10 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:How did Android 17 self-destruct his body? Wasn't the explosive device of 17 removed at the end of the Cell arc?

Whatever. This episode is the Zamasu's arc (ep. 65-66) all over again. The protagonists should not be able to fight on-par with the superior antagonist, but somehow they can.
True, he doesn't have the device in him but he probably took note from Vegeta. Just used his own power to self destruct.
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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by Cetra » Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:12 pm

DragonBallFoodie wrote: If Jiren's evildoer is hyped up as the next antagonist in Super we may see more of this incident hopefully.
What next antagonist in Super? Super is over in a few weeks.
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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by Kaiosama » Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:14 pm

ZenkaiBoosts wrote:
picc wrote:


Goku/Vegeta performed identically well against him as they did before
Goku def held his own better. He avoided the same punch that blew Vegeta out of his form.
They did not perform "identically" well. Goku showcased his superior fighting talent by dodging the same blow that knocked Vegeta out of his limit breaker form and using superior techniques while doing so. Dragon Ball rarely ever depicts Goku and Vegeta performing identically well because Goku is the main character and has always been the more talented fighter out of two. Plus we're comparing Vegeta to his KKx20 form when Goku has another transformation.
Last edited by Kaiosama on Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by Kaiosama » Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:17 pm

Xehanort wrote:
Doctor. wrote:Who cares how Jiren got this strong?
I do.
Jiren got so strong because plot demanded it. We'll most likely never know the reasons because Toei probably doesn't time or really care. They want to get this show wrapped up in time for Kitaro. Maybe the Manga will explain how he got so strong? I guess we'll have to wait and see.

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by t0ffe3m4n » Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:22 pm

Finally some Jiren backstory. A little generic if I'm being honest, but at least it's something. Fleshes him out a little more.

Surprised that 17 actually officially bit the dust, could go some way to addressing his involvement/development in this arc as it's obvious that it was written in order for the viewer to become more invested in him.

Looks like Vegeta is finally out in 128, prompting Goku to awaken UI again and team up with Freeza in the final battle with Jiren.

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by Cypher » Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:30 pm

DragonBallFoodie wrote:I can understand the issue here with that development, but the significant thing from it is that Jiren's friends refused to help him and he lost all trust and social skills.

While Jiren may have the most development of the Justice Force, it shows that he is just as flawed as his comrades.

If Jiren's evildoer is hyped up as the next antagonist in Super we may see more of this incident hopefully.
Yeah, I agree it definitely made that point pretty well, it was just a thought in the back of my mind as I watched that: ''maybe if Jiren hadn't been unreasonable in expecting everyone (the fortunate survivors of the last disastrous attempt) to join him in what, based on all evidence, would be a suicide mission, he might not have felt compelled to turn to the "I have and need no friends" mindset', but yeah, just an ancillary consideration :)

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by Turambar » Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:39 pm

That was probably one of the three best episodes of the tournament so far. Jiren really is a monster, in more ways than one.

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by picc » Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:43 pm

Kaiosama wrote:
ZenkaiBoosts wrote:
picc wrote:


Goku/Vegeta performed identically well against him as they did before
Goku def held his own better. He avoided the same punch that blew Vegeta out of his form.
They did not perform "identically" well. Goku showcased his superior fighting talent by dodging the same blow that knocked Vegeta out of his limit breaker form and using superior techniques while doing so. Dragon Ball rarely ever depicts Goku and Vegeta performing identically well because Goku is the main character and has always been the more talented fighter out of two. Plus we're comparing Vegeta to his KKx20 form when Goku has another transformation.
I didn't mean they performed identically to each other. I meant they each performed exactly the same vs Jiren post-powerup as they did pre-powerup. And you could argue they performed better, due to a number of things, led by Jiren creaming KKx20 Goku by looking at him in the one-hour special.

There was almost no discernable difference in the fight choreography from before, despite Jiren supposedly unleashing all his power. I can't tell if its laziness or incompetence from the writers at this point, and it seems like its probably a healthy dose of both.

Going to my other point, about how absolutely nothing in Super means anything. What happened 10 seconds ago has little to no bearing on what happens now. Everything is done like the writers just woke up from a coma.
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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by Freeza9000 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:48 pm

Jiren’s backstory is just another cookie cutter of “muh family and nakamas got killed and I’m left alone to defend myself” as a reason as to how he’s such a stern stoic character. Though the worst way they could’ve possibly executed this was to have Jiren himself lay out the exposition of his backstory out of thin air. Objectively, it does help explore his character a bit more and adds a layer of depth to his character while adopting that Darwism mindset and another side of him shown when C-17 provoked him. But, man, couldn’t they have made it a bit less generic? They had a chance to establish this character way back in the recruitment episodes, but they only thing they were arsed to show was Jiren meditating.

Thinking about it, a movie focusing on the backgrounds of Jiren’s character would have been far more interesting and worthwhile than yet another movie focusing on Saiyans.

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by Cypher » Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:55 pm

Didn't they have Vegeta 'see through' the rapid-fire punches that Jiren had just used to send Goku flying a couple of episodes back? I don't really 'prefer' either Goku or Vegeta, but it might also be a factor that last episode Vegeta was apparently completely tapped, where Goku should have something in the tank (leaving aside the fact both can transform to their maximum states with no trouble, on the evidence of this episode). Also, Jiren had firm hold of Vegeta's fist when he retaliated, whereas Goku wasn't in Jiren's grasp, so to speak; Goku can also teleport, which he did to give him a vantage point for his Kamehameha; Goku saw Jiren use the attack on Vegeta, and the 'no attack works on me twice' schtick seems to apply when Goku sees it done to someone else first. I don't think any argument can realistically be made that Vegeta is, in the final analysis, currently on Goku's maximum possible level, simply because Goku clearly has the Ultra Instinct in his pocket, but he's done yeoman service in this tournament (aside from the slight overuse of the 'my promise' thing, perhaps, and his overweening arrogance, that really could have been written better, for my money) and has done pretty well to be what looks like equal to Kaioken x20 SSG Goku, from what was previously presumably equal to plain SSG Goku (although I recall some were saying Vegeta might have been stronger? Can't remember exactly).

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by Zephyr » Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:56 pm

fadeddreams5 wrote:Both matter because both are equally stupid. The Pride Troopers also train, I'm sure. But Jiren is stronger than a GoD and the GoD candidate because he trained really, really hard.
I mean, I feel like Jiren obviously trained under a Hakaishin and his Angel, same as Goku and Vegeta, but a lot of the commentary seemed to me personally to paint his strength as fishier than that, so it's egregious to me that the explanation is so basic. It's still believable, I think, but it also makes it really not worth drumming up as much as they did.

If nothing else, this has at least boiled down to a battle between martial arts schools. Which is really interesting. Only, it's not really as interesting as the last time we had it, where one was actively seeking revenge on the other. Instead, it's two fighting for survival. Which should be incredibly interesting, if that was consistently played up as the motivating factor behind their conflict.

Instead, Jiren's just been chilling, making it seem like he's not terribly invested. Only for it to turn out that he is pretty invested (for vague reasons), making his prior chilling rather dumb. Toppo and #17 both asserting their mutually-exclusive survival, and #17 and Jiren comparing wishes, are good character beats to emphasize this tension, but it seems entirely disconnected with how careless and hands-off Universe 11 has been up to this point. Looking at this strictly from their perspective: Why let things drag out this long? It's risky to their aspirations and wishes at best, and at worst I don't see how prolonging the suffering of these scores of fighters whose erasure is a foregone conclusion has anything to do with justice.

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by Legion » Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:59 pm

Well, for the first time i agree with MastarMedia review. This episode is terrible.

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by lord turbo » Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:01 pm

TheOtherDude wrote:It looks inconsistent because of how atrocious Toei is writing Super.
This is my main problem with not only this episode, but DBS as a whole. If DB/Z was a 7-8 on average, DBS is a 4-5 in comparison. Its a significant drop in quality, but the problem is that I believe people like Zenkai make up a good majority of the DBS fanbase in general. The kind of people that look pass any glaring flaws and enjoy the show as is. Now there is nothing wrong with that at the surface as different people like different things and what not, but its represents an underlaying problem.

Their are pros and cons to this, the pros is for Toei and company in general. If the fans are okay with a half-effort/lazy product it means they have no problems delivering that level of work on a regular basis if they know people will eat it up without fail, the cons is that for fans that want DBS to be the best it can be will never get that kind of product because we make up the minority which means our valid criticism go unheard.

Too many people are alrite with this product and its never going to get better if you keep supporting mediocre efforts that go into it and that is what bugs me the most about not only DBS, but the fanbase in general. I should be thrilled about DBS, but it seems with each passing episodes my enthusiasm for it diminishes over a period of time to the point I'm more happy DBS is ending than continuing and that just feels wrong to me.
fadeddreams5 wrote:Both matter because both are equally stupid. The Pride Troopers also train, I'm sure. But Jiren is stronger than a GoD and the GoD candidate because he trained really, really hard.
The problem with DB as a whole is that it creatively peaked during the 23rd Budokai saga as far as the concept of training is concerned. What I mean by that is Toriyama hit the ceiling for metaphysical ki training like Jojo did with Hamon, but unlike Jojo that evolved with Stands DB stayed stagnant up to this current day.

The actual dialogue and mechanics of what we see and hear from Whis' training and teachings is no different than from what Roshi, Karin, and Mr. Popo taught Goku. Goku relearns the exact same training and teachings thay he learned since he was a kid, in fact, Goku jas regressed as he apparently doesn't learn a damn thing in DBS and repeats the same mistakes he mastered ages ago.

Toriyama is creatively bankrupted, the well has long since dried up. You would think with the introduction of God ki that it would open the doors for new abilities and innovative forms of combat, but no, Goku and company act and fight remotely the same as they did before, no matter the stakes everything is stagnant as the fight between Vegetto Blue and Zamasu visually looks no different than Goku vs Demon King Piccolo to the point the scale is the same when it should be different. Seems like training is the answer to everything, yet the how for it doesn't change, just another arbitrary level to achieve before the next saga.
Last edited by lord turbo on Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by The Iron Fjord » Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:14 pm

This episode solidifies 17 as the MVP of this entire arc. Of Super itself.
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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:37 pm

GreatSaiyaJeff wrote:
SupremeKai25 wrote:How did Android 17 self-destruct his body? Wasn't the explosive device of 17 removed at the end of the Cell arc?

Whatever. This episode is the Zamasu's arc (ep. 65-66) all over again. The protagonists should not be able to fight on-par with the superior antagonist, but somehow they can.
True, he doesn't have the device in him but he probably took note from Vegeta. Just used his own power to self destruct.
So he learned that technique in only 1 minute? Wow... that's... that's astonishing, i mean... that's unbelievable! He's even better than Trunks, who learned the Mafuba in 5 minutes and successfully used it against Future Zamasu!
Last edited by SupremeKai25 on Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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