Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by Nia » Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:39 pm

Artorias wrote:
Nia wrote:
Artorias wrote:
There is a reason that there are entire communities filled with analyzing the storyboards of individual episodes. This is because the storyboards are largely and almost entirely the responsibility of Toei staff. If the implication is that Toriyama sits there and goes through every episodes storyboard and makes adjustments, that is just patently wrong. If the implication is that Toriyama will occasionally check in to see give input, then that may be the case. But he most certainly does not craft or "approve" the average Super storyboard.

If Toriyama really did "supervise the anime" in terms of individual storyboards, the animation/production community of this fandom would be blown away, or would have at the very least have MENTIONED this. But guys like AnimeAjay, for instance, have never ONCE even commented on this, hence why, until Toriyama straight up states that he saw a storyboard for an episode, didn't like it, and sent it back to be fixed, I don't put stock into this idea.

And even still, I was talking about the writing, not the storyboards. These are two different arguments we're having.
> Anime staff says he supervises
> Toyotaro says he supervises (going so far as to say he supervises EVERY storyboard related to the Dragon Ball universe)
> Toriyama says he supervises
"Toriyama has nothing to do with the anime at all!"

I guess according to you Toriyama, Toei, and Toyotaro are all liars. And you know, half of a storyboard is the story. You know... writing? And he DID say that he feels he has to correct something every time he sees one of Toei's storyboards because he didn't like it.
Clearly this is a fruitless discussion if you're gonna see evidence and choose to go "NUH-UH!" and ignore it.
Well for starters, I don't think Toriyama is a liar, but I certainly don't put much stock into what he says these days. But anyways, even ignoring that, this comes down to a difference in interpretation. You are interpreting that quote from Toriyama to mean that he consistently supervises and directly approves of every storyboard. I am interpreting that quote as him peeking into the production once in a while and offering his input into what he does and doesn't like. So yes, I was wrong to say he has "NOTHING" to do with the anime . But my basic point still stands that he does not have nearly as much input as ZenkaiBoosts was stating.

I am not in any way denying that evidence. My argument is that, since I follow the animation/production community in this fandom, I am familiar with the behind the scenes process somewhat. And I have to this day never once heard anyone in that community, a community filled with knowledgeable individuals who know their shit and do their research, mention that Toriyama frequently alters or approves the average storyboard. Therefor, I am inclined to assume that there are multiple interpretations of this interview and those sources.
"There’s some confusing bits with time changing here and there, but just bear with me. It should definitely turn out to be a fun story! Even I haven’t checked the final script yet! Let’s enjoy this together (laughs)!!"
Toriyama said this about the Future Trunks arc. He's straight up saying that he's involved right there.

If everyone says he's involved, including himself, and that he straight up remarks on how he checks the storyboards and scripts, then I'd say Toriyama absolutely is directly involved. There's absolutely no evidence to the contrary. I don't see how it can be interpreted any other way when he, the anime staff, and the manga writer are all saying the same thing. And given that a good chunk of this stuff was translated right here by people here on Kanzenshuu or from VIZ media...

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by Artorias » Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:02 am

Nia wrote:
"There’s some confusing bits with time changing here and there, but just bear with me. It should definitely turn out to be a fun story! Even I haven’t checked the final script yet! Let’s enjoy this together (laughs)!!"
Toriyama said this about the Future Trunks arc. He's straight up saying that he's involved right there.

If everyone says he's involved, including himself, and that he straight up remarks on how he checks the storyboards and scripts, then I'd say Toriyama absolutely is directly involved. There's absolutely no evidence to the contrary. I don't see how it can be interpreted any other way when he, the anime staff, and the manga writer are all saying the same thing. And given that a good chunk of this stuff was translated right here by people here on Kanzenshuu or from VIZ media...
''

First off, I don't know what this would have to do with storyboards. There isn't a singular "storyboard" for the arc. So "the script" doesn't pertain to that. But anyways, again, what "script" is he talking about? Does he mean HIS final script that he wrote? That doesn't make much sense because he doesn't write the script. Does he mean the literal script of each episode? That wouldn't make any sense, because the episodes aren't all written in advance like that. There is no "final script". They write them while the arc is ongoing, a few months ahead of time. So, like I have said, I would need further explanation and specification on what that actually means. It doesn't help that this is all translated and the full meaning isn't always captured.

And again, I've told you my interpretations of those other quotes, and I'm inclined to stick to those interpretations, because I've never heard anyone relevant, credible, or knowledgeable claim that Toriyama "approves" aspects of individual episodes.

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by Nia » Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:28 am

Artorias wrote:
Nia wrote:
Artorias wrote:
Well for starters, I don't think Toriyama is a liar, but I certainly don't put much stock into what he says these days. But anyways, even ignoring that, this comes down to a difference in interpretation. You are interpreting that quote from Toriyama to mean that he consistently supervises and directly approves of every storyboard. I am interpreting that quote as him peeking into the production once in a while and offering his input into what he does and doesn't like. So yes, I was wrong to say he has "NOTHING" to do with the anime . But my basic point still stands that he does not have nearly as much input as ZenkaiBoosts was stating.

I am not in any way denying that evidence. My argument is that, since I follow the animation/production community in this fandom, I am familiar with the behind the scenes process somewhat. And I have to this day never once heard anyone in that community, a community filled with knowledgeable individuals who know their shit and do their research, mention that Toriyama frequently alters or approves the average storyboard. Therefor, I am inclined to assume that there are multiple interpretations of this interview and those sources.
"There’s some confusing bits with time changing here and there, but just bear with me. It should definitely turn out to be a fun story! Even I haven’t checked the final script yet! Let’s enjoy this together (laughs)!!"
Toriyama said this about the Future Trunks arc. He's straight up saying that he's involved right there.

If everyone says he's involved, including himself, and that he straight up remarks on how he checks the storyboards and scripts, then I'd say Toriyama absolutely is directly involved. There's absolutely no evidence to the contrary. I don't see how it can be interpreted any other way when he, the anime staff, and the manga writer are all saying the same thing. And given that a good chunk of this stuff was translated right here by people here on Kanzenshuu or from VIZ media...
''

First off, I don't know what this would have to do with storyboards. There isn't a singular "storyboard" for the arc. So "the script" doesn't pertain to that. But anyways, again, what "script" is he talking about? Does he mean HIS final script that he wrote? That doesn't make much sense because he doesn't write the script. Does he mean the literal script of each episode? That wouldn't make any sense, because the episodes aren't all written in advance like that. There is no "final script". They write them while the arc is ongoing, a few months ahead of time. So, like I have said, I would need further explanation and specification on what that actually means. It doesn't help that this is all translated and the full meaning isn't always captured.
Clearly, I'm wasting my time. I don't know why this upsets you so much.

It's not just Toriyama who says it; it's the anime staff AND even Toyotaro too. If he says that he fixes things he doesn't like, and Toyotaro says he supervises ALL Dragon Ball storyboards (not just the manga or the anime, that'd also include stuff like the games), and the anime staff say that he supervises, and there's been absolutely nothing that suggests the contrary. I'm fairly certain that he has to approve it.
Trying to say "the full meaning isn't captured" is ridiculous. It's multiple sources, including the man himself, all saying the exact same thing. It's unlikely that every translator got the meaning wrong every single time.

You believe whatever you want at this point; I'm tired of arguing in circles.

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by Artorias » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:02 am

Nia wrote:
Clearly, I'm wasting my time. I don't know why this upsets you so much.

It's not just Toriyama who says it; it's the anime staff AND even Toyotaro too. If he says that he fixes things he doesn't like, and Toyotaro says he supervises ALL Dragon Ball storyboards (not just the manga or the anime, that'd also include stuff like the games), and the anime staff say that he supervises, and there's been absolutely nothing that suggests the contrary. I'm fairly certain that he has to approve it.
Trying to say "the full meaning isn't captured" is ridiculous. It's multiple sources, including the man himself, all saying the exact same thing. It's unlikely that every translator got the meaning wrong every single time.

You believe whatever you want at this point; I'm tired of arguing in circles.
It doesn't upset me....there's no need to be like that. I'm having a discussion about a cartoon. Chill out. Also, way to completely just ignore my entire reasoned post. Literally completely ignore and fail to address any of the points. You are showing no nuance whatsoever. You're just appealing to "he said it so no discussion or analysis shall be had". I'll say it again: there is no "final script". It has been confirmed by multiple writers that they write the episodes while the arc is ongoing. There is, however, a "final draft" of the story that Toriyama writes that is then handed off to Toei and Toyotaro to fill in the gaps and expand on the outline. So, we should question what Toriyama means by that statement, which would require nuance, which apparently you aren't capable of.

And AGAIN, don't you think it's a bit suspicious that you apparently possess knowledge that literally NO ONE else in the fandom has? Doesn't that cause you to question your claims? Does that not give you pause, that maybe, just MAYBE there's more to it than "Toriyama checks every storyboard and script for each individual episode" (which is already an insane extrapolation based on a single line from an interview). Don't you think that would be brought up by knowledgeable people in the community that discuss behind the scenes aspects?

You are the one "arguing in circles". I have given you ample reasoning as to my conclusion and directly addressed your evidence, yet you continue to just repeat yourself and ignore everything I'm saying.

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by Miracles » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:13 am

Jiren's wish is still going to be interesting.
Last edited by Miracles on Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by Nia » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:30 am

Artorias wrote: And AGAIN, don't you think it's a bit suspicious that you apparently possess knowledge that literally NO ONE else in the fandom has? Doesn't that cause you to question your claims? Does that not give you pause, that maybe, just MAYBE there's more to it than "Toriyama checks every storyboard and script for each individual episode" (which is already an insane extrapolation based on a single line from an interview). Don't you think that would be brought up by knowledgeable people in the community that discuss behind the scenes aspects?

You are the one "arguing in circles". I have given you ample reasoning as to my conclusion and directly addressed your evidence, yet you continue to just repeat yourself and ignore everything I'm saying.
Okay, I wasn't gonna bother responding, but since you're trying to claim that "literally NO ONE else in the fandom has this information," it might surprise you, but I happened to get this information from the knowledgeable people in the community. All of this is right here on Kanzenshuu itself. Multiple interviews, with nobody contradicting those statements.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... k-version/
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/2017/05/07/wi ... i-comicon/ (translation is mentioned in the description).
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/2016/05/09/fu ... all-super/

But thanks for trying to accuse me of making shit up. Really appreciate that.

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by supersaiyanZero » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:48 am

Toriyama was SO involved with the show that he publicly distanced himself from it after it's lack of quality. lol

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by Artorias » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:24 am

Nia wrote:
Artorias wrote: And AGAIN, don't you think it's a bit suspicious that you apparently possess knowledge that literally NO ONE else in the fandom has? Doesn't that cause you to question your claims? Does that not give you pause, that maybe, just MAYBE there's more to it than "Toriyama checks every storyboard and script for each individual episode" (which is already an insane extrapolation based on a single line from an interview). Don't you think that would be brought up by knowledgeable people in the community that discuss behind the scenes aspects?

You are the one "arguing in circles". I have given you ample reasoning as to my conclusion and directly addressed your evidence, yet you continue to just repeat yourself and ignore everything I'm saying.
Okay, I wasn't gonna bother responding, but since you're trying to claim that "literally NO ONE else in the fandom has this information," it might surprise you, but I happened to get this information from the knowledgeable people in the community. All of this is right here on Kanzenshuu itself. Multiple interviews, with nobody contradicting those statements.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... k-version/
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/2017/05/07/wi ... i-comicon/ (translation is mentioned in the description).
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/2016/05/09/fu ... all-super/

But thanks for trying to accuse me of making shit up. Really appreciate that.
I didn't accuse you of making shit up. I'm accusing you of extrapolating a meaning that I've seen literally no one else come to. I'm not denying that the interviews or quotes happened, I'm merely saying that to then conclude that Toriyama "approves" all individual episodes scripts and storyboards is a stretch and something that no one else of any credibility or knowledge has claimed. That is all I am saying, and the only point I was ever trying to make.

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by RedHeat » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:28 am

supersaiyanZero wrote:Toriyama was SO involved with the show that he publicly distanced himself from it after it's lack of quality. lol
Is the Manga so boring that you have to spend most of your time shitposting in the anime threads?
Feels over Reals.

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by ernesth100 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:50 am

Miracles wrote:Jiren's wish is still going to be interesting.
I'm betting he's either going to

A. Wish to go back in time so he can stop his village from being slaughtered.
B. Wish to be able to face the villain now so he can defeat them with his current power.
C. Realize 17 was right and that the past cannot be rectified and things happen for a reason thus moving him to wish all erased universes back.


A much more interesting theory I had was that Belmond, in disguise, killed Jiren parents to trick him into going down that path for Belmond's own personal uses. And Jiren's going to realize and change his mindset then beat Belmond's ass. :lol: An unlikely one but it would be a neat sight to see Jiren officially beat a God of Destruction.

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by Xehanort » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:17 am

Artorias wrote:I think that's on you to be honest. I genuinely have no idea what "build up" you're even referring to. I seriously can't remember ever once getting the impression that his character was going to be delved into or that Toei had some big reveal about why he was so strong or whatever. I always just assumed he was a strong guy who got strong cuz...he got strong. And it seems like a lot of people in the fandom are like me. Not only do I disagree that they did a "good" job building his mystery up, I wasn't even aware there was any build up to be had.
I really find it strange that a lot of people didn't think there was buildup to Jiren, I explained the reasons why there was in a following post. You might not think the buildup was good or engaging, but that's a whole different issue altogether. But absolutely no buildup? I don't even know what to say to that :eh:
Last edited by Xehanort on Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by supersaiyanZero » Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:09 pm

RedHeat wrote:
supersaiyanZero wrote:Toriyama was SO involved with the show that he publicly distanced himself from it after it's lack of quality. lol
Is the Manga so boring that you have to spend most of your time shitposting in the anime threads?
You want to pretend he didn't state in an interview that he was troubled by quality of the anime?

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by VegettoEX » Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:52 pm

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by emperior » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:14 pm

Artorias wrote:
There is a reason that there are entire communities filled with analyzing the storyboards of individual episodes. This is because the storyboards are largely and almost entirely the responsibility of Toei staff. If the implication is that Toriyama sits there and goes through every episodes storyboard and makes adjustments, that is just patently wrong. If the implication is that Toriyama will occasionally check in to see give input, then that may be the case. But he most certainly does not craft or "approve" the average Super storyboard.

If Toriyama really did "supervise the anime" in terms of individual storyboards, the animation/production community of this fandom would be blown away, or would have at the very least have MENTIONED this. But guys like AnimeAjay, for instance, have never ONCE even commented on this, hence why, until Toriyama straight up states that he saw a storyboard for an episode, didn't like it, and sent it back to be fixed, I don't put stock into this idea.

And even still, I was talking about the writing, not the storyboards. These are two different arguments we're having.
How would AnimeAjay even know if Toriyama asked something of the storyboard to be changed? That would be like spotting the scenes we know Toriyama asked Toyotaro to change of his manga, before he ever commented about there being Toriyama's intervention.
Toriyama checks all the storyboards to make sure the anime and manga are in-line with his vision of the Dragon Ball world. If a Toei storyboard has something he deems uncorrect, he will tell Toei to change it. We have no idea how many times that has happened, as nobody from Toei has made the information public and we don't even know if they are allowed to.
But saying Toriyama doesn't supervise the anime storyboards is just plain wrong considering it has been stated a few times already that he indeed does.
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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by Nia » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:41 pm

supersaiyanZero wrote:
RedHeat wrote:
supersaiyanZero wrote:Toriyama was SO involved with the show that he publicly distanced himself from it after it's lack of quality. lol
Is the Manga so boring that you have to spend most of your time shitposting in the anime threads?
You want to pretend he didn't state in an interview that he was troubled by quality of the anime?
Weren't his complaints only about the poor quality of the animation in the early episodes?

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by dbgtFO » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:08 pm

Nia wrote:
supersaiyanZero wrote:
RedHeat wrote: Is the Manga so boring that you have to spend most of your time shitposting in the anime threads?
You want to pretend he didn't state in an interview that he was troubled by quality of the anime?
Weren't his complaints only about the poor quality of the animation in the early episodes?
He wasn't specific, so it's hard to tell.

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by JazzMazz » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:12 pm

emperior wrote:
Artorias wrote:
There is a reason that there are entire communities filled with analyzing the storyboards of individual episodes. This is because the storyboards are largely and almost entirely the responsibility of Toei staff. If the implication is that Toriyama sits there and goes through every episodes storyboard and makes adjustments, that is just patently wrong. If the implication is that Toriyama will occasionally check in to see give input, then that may be the case. But he most certainly does not craft or "approve" the average Super storyboard.

If Toriyama really did "supervise the anime" in terms of individual storyboards, the animation/production community of this fandom would be blown away, or would have at the very least have MENTIONED this. But guys like AnimeAjay, for instance, have never ONCE even commented on this, hence why, until Toriyama straight up states that he saw a storyboard for an episode, didn't like it, and sent it back to be fixed, I don't put stock into this idea.

And even still, I was talking about the writing, not the storyboards. These are two different arguments we're having.
How would AnimeAjay even know if Toriyama asked something of the storyboard to be changed? That would be like spotting the scenes we know Toriyama asked Toyotaro to change of his manga, before he ever commented about there being Toriyama's intervention.
Toriyama checks all the storyboards to make sure the anime and manga are in-line with his vision of the Dragon Ball world. If a Toei storyboard has something he deems uncorrect, he will tell Toei to change it. We have no idea how many times that has happened, as nobody from Toei has made the information public and we don't even know if they are allowed to.
But saying Toriyama doesn't supervise the anime storyboards is just plain wrong considering it has been stated a few times already that he indeed does.
I guess I'll ask some people that know far more about the subject than me, but from what I've read up about the pre-production process, I find Toriyama's involvment in the anime being to this degree is unlikely, since all the stuff Toriyama says he does, are also jobs taken by other people. I can see him occassionally popping in to check how they're going to potray plot points and stuff, but checking every storyboard and every script? Thats a lot of work considering that their are already people who are responsible for that type of thing, namely the episode and series director.

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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by emperior » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:27 pm

JazzMazz wrote:
emperior wrote:
Artorias wrote:
There is a reason that there are entire communities filled with analyzing the storyboards of individual episodes. This is because the storyboards are largely and almost entirely the responsibility of Toei staff. If the implication is that Toriyama sits there and goes through every episodes storyboard and makes adjustments, that is just patently wrong. If the implication is that Toriyama will occasionally check in to see give input, then that may be the case. But he most certainly does not craft or "approve" the average Super storyboard.

If Toriyama really did "supervise the anime" in terms of individual storyboards, the animation/production community of this fandom would be blown away, or would have at the very least have MENTIONED this. But guys like AnimeAjay, for instance, have never ONCE even commented on this, hence why, until Toriyama straight up states that he saw a storyboard for an episode, didn't like it, and sent it back to be fixed, I don't put stock into this idea.

And even still, I was talking about the writing, not the storyboards. These are two different arguments we're having.
How would AnimeAjay even know if Toriyama asked something of the storyboard to be changed? That would be like spotting the scenes we know Toriyama asked Toyotaro to change of his manga, before he ever commented about there being Toriyama's intervention.
Toriyama checks all the storyboards to make sure the anime and manga are in-line with his vision of the Dragon Ball world. If a Toei storyboard has something he deems uncorrect, he will tell Toei to change it. We have no idea how many times that has happened, as nobody from Toei has made the information public and we don't even know if they are allowed to.
But saying Toriyama doesn't supervise the anime storyboards is just plain wrong considering it has been stated a few times already that he indeed does.
I guess I'll ask some people that know far more about the subject than me, but from what I've read up about the pre-production process, I find Toriyama's involvment in the anime being to this degree is unlikely, since all the stuff Toriyama says he does, are also jobs taken by other people. I can see him occassionally popping in to check how they're going to potray plot points and stuff, but checking every storyboard and every script? Thats a lot of work considering that their are already people who are responsible for that type of thing, namely the episode and series director.
But the episode and series director won't know what Toriyama's vision of his world is. For example, in the manga he told Toyotaro that Hakaishin's worlds must look "modern". What if people involved in the anime depicted a completely different version of the Hakaishin's worlds than Toriyama wanted? He wouldn't be too happy. And what if some writer who doesn't understand Goku suddenly wrote him spouting off Funimation-like lines? These things haven't happened yet in 127 episodes, which is why I believe that Toriyama indeed checks every storyboard and script and everything we see has been approved by him.
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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by VegettoEX » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:29 pm

This conversation, while an interesting and valid one to have, has little to do with this specific episode discussion. Please take it elsewhere. Thank you!
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Re: Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

Post by Miracles » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:29 pm

ernesth100 wrote:
Miracles wrote:Jiren's wish is still going to be interesting.
I'm betting he's either going to

A. Wish to go back in time so he can stop his village from being slaughtered.
B. Wish to be able to face the villain now so he can defeat them with his current power.
C. Realize 17 was right and that the past cannot be rectified and things happen for a reason thus moving him to wish all erased universes back.


A much more interesting theory I had was that Belmond, in disguise, killed Jiren parents to trick him into going down that path for Belmond's own personal uses. And Jiren's going to realize and change his mindset then beat Belmond's ass. :lol: An unlikely one but it would be a neat sight to see Jiren officially beat a God of Destruction.
lololol
That would be a good twist with Belmond.
I really do believe UI Goku is losing and your third scenario with Jiren realizing what 17 saying is true may be a correct fitting for that.
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."~Psalm 14:1

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