Super Episode 128 (18 February 2018)

Individual discussions for each episode of Dragon Ball Super.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
Vegeta_Sama
Temporarily Banned
Posts: 692
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:59 pm
Location: Capsule Corporation
Contact:

Re: Super Episode 128 (18 February 2018)

Post by Vegeta_Sama » Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:20 pm

buutenks wrote:
supersaiyanZero wrote:
The choreography in this episode was awful. Compare this to, Vegeta's last stand against Kid Buu, Super Buu, Fat Buu, Frieza, Zarbon, Recoome, etc. It's very stiff, one dimensional, there is little to no impact or creativity in composition - just an overall mess. Creatively the show has just continued to fail in creating atmosphere, displaying emotions or the character's convictions, or displaying these fighting bouts in any interesting way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW49MyMtdU4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LliGkyoEdwY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_xowoA8aDs

Compared to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh4oT0-S4a0

it's just laughable.
You are over reacting, it isnt that much of a difference TBH, they just had more blood and battle damage back then, that is all.

Also the Cell vs Goku fight, the only good part of it was what was taken directly from the manga, rest was just average stuff with average animation.
The choreography was better in Z because the shots were taken directly from the manga, and Toriyama was a spectacular choreographer
Vegeta! We can get even stronger!
Of course! A Saiyan's strenght has no limits!


My interpretation of the Dragon Ball Canon

User avatar
supersaiyanZero
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 367
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:10 am

Re: Super Episode 128 (18 February 2018)

Post by supersaiyanZero » Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:28 pm

Amir wrote:
supersaiyanZero wrote:
Artorias wrote:
Well yes, Super doesn't have anything like Goku vs. Cell, but neither does most of Z. It's not like every fight in Z was like that. That was an exception. I honestly think the choreography on display here can totally hold up next to the average Z fight. It's actually pretty rare in Z to have a straight up long martial arts hand-to-hand session of back and forth like this. DRAGON BALL on the other hand, now that's a different story. That was the norm.
The choreography in this episode was awful. Compare this to, Vegeta's last stand against Kid Buu, Super Buu, Fat Buu, Frieza, Zarbon, Recoome, etc. It's very stiff, one dimensional, there is little to no impact or creativity in composition - just an overall mess. Creatively the show has just continued to fail in creating atmosphere, displaying emotions or the character's convictions, or displaying these fighting bouts in any interesting way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW49MyMtdU4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LliGkyoEdwY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_xowoA8aDs

Compared to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh4oT0-S4a0

it's just laughable.
No it is not. Those fights you mentioned barely had any creative choreography of martial arts, mostly repeated frames, and Super has many fights with much better choreographies. This episode had some actual martial arts moves, cool dodging, blocking and flashy moves, something Z didn't often have. It's not even close to the best Super has. Also, how can you call this episode an overall mess and then mention the Goku vs Frieza fight, which is mostly contained of Rough looped frames and an actual mess.

Saiyng it was one dimensional and stiff is super vague, what do you even mean by one dimensional? It wasn't just looped frames of punching, there was quite a bit of variety in the fighting department so it's definitely not one dimensional. As for this being stiff, I don't even know what you mean by that, the way you describe it is missing context. How can a choreography even be stiff, you may not like the animation itself and how the movements looked, but it has nothing to do with actual fighting choreography. Everything else you said about creativity in composition has nothing to do with chroeography so it's irrelevant and also subjective. I strongly disagree about the fighting lacking impact and emotion, I thought the impact was rather strong when Jiren knocked the Blue out of Goku and the rest of the hits, and how both Goku and Vegeta looked desperate with their futile assaults. I have no idea what you mean by creativity in composition, composiotion in animated films is all about the special effects, the colors, matching backgrounds to the animation and the way everything is put together basically, it's vague like I already said.
Quite a bit of variety? Vegeta and Jiren exchanged the same lackluster punches in using almost the same boring composition the entire time, with a judo chop thrown in there. Even Vegeta's big moment during the Takahashi episode was "I can see through your...flurry of punches." I don't know what show you're watching because it was definitely no martial arts spectacle. I had to watch the whole fight after this post just to make sure I wasn't crazy or for some reason didn't see something. When I say the choreography is stiff (the animation is as well but that's another issue), it's because it seems very contained and there is nothing dynamic about it. It feels like it's set on the same 2D plane virtually in every episode. An example of nice choreography and direction is Toppo VS Frieza.

Composition is not all about special effects. It's an image, even though it's a moving image. Composing scenes for films follow similar rules in photography even though they themselves aren't still. There is a way to lead the viewers eye in exciting and creative ways that leave an impact on the viewer. Colors also play into this. There is almost none of that in Super and definitely none of that in in this fight. Vegeta vs Kid Buu was 1000% more creative and dynamic. Vegeta vs Zarbon didn't look as pretty as the other examples but it was executed better than this. I didn't even mention Frieza vs Goku, but even though it dragged on for too long I can guarantee you that I can pull scenes from there that make this one look like a joke.
"The choreography in this episode was awful."

That is an opinion so utterly insane to me that I don't even know where to begin responding. So I guess I won't. It's fine if you think that I guess, but I don't. So...yea.
I've provided examples of dynamic choreography in Z. Can you please show me examples in this fight? I don't think you can because there isn't any. Even Vegeta's attempt to break Jirens arm was boring and stiff.

User avatar
Amir
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 433
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:17 am

Re: Super Episode 128 (18 February 2018)

Post by Amir » Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:59 pm

supersaiyanZero wrote:
Amir wrote:
supersaiyanZero wrote:
The choreography in this episode was awful. Compare this to, Vegeta's last stand against Kid Buu, Super Buu, Fat Buu, Frieza, Zarbon, Recoome, etc. It's very stiff, one dimensional, there is little to no impact or creativity in composition - just an overall mess. Creatively the show has just continued to fail in creating atmosphere, displaying emotions or the character's convictions, or displaying these fighting bouts in any interesting way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW49MyMtdU4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LliGkyoEdwY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_xowoA8aDs

Compared to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh4oT0-S4a0

it's just laughable.
No it is not. Those fights you mentioned barely had any creative choreography of martial arts, mostly repeated frames, and Super has many fights with much better choreographies. This episode had some actual martial arts moves, cool dodging, blocking and flashy moves, something Z didn't often have. It's not even close to the best Super has. Also, how can you call this episode an overall mess and then mention the Goku vs Frieza fight, which is mostly contained of Rough looped frames and an actual mess.

Saiyng it was one dimensional and stiff is super vague, what do you even mean by one dimensional? It wasn't just looped frames of punching, there was quite a bit of variety in the fighting department so it's definitely not one dimensional. As for this being stiff, I don't even know what you mean by that, the way you describe it is missing context. How can a choreography even be stiff, you may not like the animation itself and how the movements looked, but it has nothing to do with actual fighting choreography. Everything else you said about creativity in composition has nothing to do with chroeography so it's irrelevant and also subjective. I strongly disagree about the fighting lacking impact and emotion, I thought the impact was rather strong when Jiren knocked the Blue out of Goku and the rest of the hits, and how both Goku and Vegeta looked desperate with their futile assaults. I have no idea what you mean by creativity in composition, composiotion in animated films is all about the special effects, the colors, matching backgrounds to the animation and the way everything is put together basically, it's vague like I already said.
Quite a bit of variety? Vegeta and Jiren exchanged the same lackluster punches in using almost the same boring composition the entire time, with a judo chop thrown in there. Even Vegeta's big moment during the Takahashi episode was "I can see through your...flurry of punches." I don't know what show you're watching because it was definitely no martial arts spectacle. I had to watch the whole fight after this post just to make sure I wasn't crazy or for some reason didn't see something. When I say the choreography is stiff (the animation is as well but that's another issue), it's because it seems very contained and there is nothing dynamic about it. It feels like it's set on the same 2D plane virtually in every episode. An example of nice choreography and direction is Toppo VS Frieza.

Composition is not all about special effects. It's an image, even though it's a moving image. Composing scenes for films follow similar rules in photography even though they themselves aren't still. There is a way to lead the viewers eye in exciting and creative ways that leave an impact on the viewer. Colors also play into this. There is almost none of that in Super and definitely none of that in in this fight. Vegeta vs Kid Buu was 1000% more creative and dynamic. Vegeta vs Zarbon didn't look as pretty as the other examples but it was executed better than this. I didn't even mention Frieza vs Goku, but even though it dragged on for too long I can guarantee you that I can pull scenes from there that make this one look like a joke.
You basically just mentioend the parts without the variety (which was mostly the Vegeta stuff) and ignored the Goku stuff and all the variety in there. So yeah I agree that some of the Vegeta stuff was pretty contaiend and not dynamic at all like you said, but what about the rest? What about Goku's fight against Jiren as Blue with all the cool moves that were used in there? What about Base Goku vs Jiren aside from the parts when Jiren just destroyed him completely? There was plenty of variety and dynamics there and it was far from one dimensional. Even in the example of 122 that you mentioned, you ignored the rest of the cool fight scenes and adressed the generic one, which wasn't even supposed to look interesting, but the narrative point behind it was the important thing. There are plenty of scenes in 122 that were way more creative than this, action wise.

Sorry for my lack of knowledge about composition but I think I understand what you mean. I'm now sure you're referring to the angles and overall storyboard? If so, then yes. Storyboard was really weak this episode, it was filled with flat angles but that has nothing to do with the actual choreogtaphy of the actual fight. Choreography has nothing to do with the angles, composition and stuff like this, it's about what the characters are doing and the variety in their movements, basically how the fight (in this case it's a fighting choreography so yeah) is played out. I think you are using the term choreography wrong here, especially after you brought Frieza vs Toppo, a fight with no choreography at all whatsoever, he basically just grabbed Frieza's head and squashed it.

Kid Buu vs Vegeta was nothing special, very generic beatdown with very little choreography, mostly looped frames of punching or Vegeta spamming ki blasts to no to no avail, it was actually quite boring.
Even the board was nothing interesting, just many generic close up shots and no interesting angles. I fail to understand how you found any of this creative. It was one of the most generic fights even for Z standards. Not to mention the animation too wasn't that great. It was by no means better than this episode. This episode may have had weak storyboard and slow pacing but the fighting choreography was at least pretty interesting and cool to watch.

I'd take the action in this episode any day over Vegeta vs Kid Buu.
Last edited by Amir on Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Dave2770
Newbie
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:28 pm

Re: Super Episode 128 (18 February 2018)

Post by Dave2770 » Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:08 pm

precita wrote:
Freezerbaby wrote:Can´t believe that trailer from dragon ball heroes was right all along...
Not really, that showed Goku and Freeza fighting side by side.

Here, Freeza's pretty much defeated and hiding on the sidelines. In fact Goku and Freeza never really teamed up once the entire tournament.
Dude. It's so funny reading people who can't see the entire picture. Heroes showerd the entire stage with only clearly 3 characters visible. Frieza and jiren with goku. Your just pickings small details and missing the point.

You think heroes was gonna spoil mastered ultra inspiring and a broken stage? The problem isn't Dragonball super it's that this community is filled so called experts who are probably younger than 20 and lack maturity, experience, and age to make valid judgements, statements, or opinions.

When people look at heroes and clearly can't see it showed frieza, goku, and jiren as the last ones and say that it didn't predict super (not that it predicted the developers most likely knew the whole story of Top in advance), and pick small details such as no broken stage and believe that instead of seeing what's clearly in front, there's a community problem.

User avatar
Firebolt
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 117
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:40 am

Re: Super Episode 128 (18 February 2018)

Post by Firebolt » Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:20 pm

supersaiyanZero wrote:
Quite a bit of variety? Vegeta and Jiren exchanged the same lackluster punches in using almost the same boring composition the entire time, with a judo chop thrown in there. Even Vegeta's big moment during the Takahashi episode was "I can see through your...flurry of punches." I don't know what show you're watching because it was definitely no martial arts spectacle. I had to watch the whole fight after this post just to make sure I wasn't crazy or for some reason didn't see something. When I say the choreography is stiff (the animation is as well but that's another issue), it's because it seems very contained and there is nothing dynamic about it. It feels like it's set on the same 2D plane virtually in every episode. An example of nice choreography and direction is Toppo VS Frieza.

Composition is not all about special effects. It's an image, even though it's a moving image. Composing scenes for films follow similar rules in photography even though they themselves aren't still. There is a way to lead the viewers eye in exciting and creative ways that leave an impact on the viewer. Colors also play into this. There is almost none of that in Super and definitely none of that in in this fight. Vegeta vs Kid Buu was 1000% more creative and dynamic. Vegeta vs Zarbon didn't look as pretty as the other examples but it was executed better than this. I didn't even mention Frieza vs Goku, but even though it dragged on for too long I can guarantee you that I can pull scenes from there that make this one look like a joke.
Taken from wikipedia.
"Choreography is the art or practice of designing sequences of movements of physical bodies in which motion, form, or both are specified."

There was a nice variety of kicks, punches, and parries in this episode. The fights from Z you mentioned mostly rely on looped frames.

I think that you're referring to the storyboard when you say the choreography was weak. The camera angles and framing of the fights in this episode were very mediocre, flat and boring. It made the fights a little less enjoyable.

ZenkaiBoosts
Banned
Posts: 534
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:18 pm

Re: Super Episode 128 (18 February 2018)

Post by ZenkaiBoosts » Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:25 pm

I last read up to page 8 (begining of 9). I still need to read the last 2 and half pages or so.

But just wanted to stop in and share this vid with you all: )

Everyone should give it a watch

https://youtu.be/XnWwc2oHV_Q

Amazing review/actual intelligent discussion about the themes of this episode (not just "here's a tiny nitpick I managed to find therefore that proves the episode sucked")


Watching Goku's emotional scene here again. I'm really appreciating it even more, for just how great it was

(Man, no matter how many times I watch it, it's still so emotional every time. That music. )


As Goku is recalling everyone who is counting on him

Notice how it's all the universe 7 fighters shown one by one.

It's to show how universe 7 is counting on Goku.

Then it all culilminates with Vegeta "I leave it up to you Kakarot" as Vegeta gives his final energy to Goku

Most won't pick up on the genius of that

It's like all of the hope of Universe 7 was condensed into that energy ball....

Vegeta respresented all their hope - the final hope, and Vegeta sends it off like a shooting star of hope across the night sky toward Goku as the beautiful music is playing.

"Make a wish as you see a shooting star"

All the final hope of Universe 7 being passed and entrusted to the legendary Son Goku

And not only that, it was Vegeta passing off all of his promises to Goku, and trusting in Goku to complete Vegeta's promises for him


Such a powerful deep emotional scene. SON GOKU!

That Goku scene will go on to be one of the most iconic scenes in Dragon Ball IMO...the scene that lead to re-awakening Omen and which will lead to the chain of events that cause Goku to hit his legendary mastered UI transformation


People are so concerned with nit picks and complaints, that the greater points and deep powerful moments get ignored. When its all just negativity that's not real healthy discussion

Interesting discussion would have been discussing these themes that were at play... but some people can never give Super any credit no matter what, so it just gets ignored in favor of what we got in this thread instead. It's disheartening

If you look at the Reddit DBZ which was overwhelmingly more positive, there was lots of actual great discussion that took place there; about the themes of the episodes, about people relating to the themes and struggles on a personal level, about people talking about motivation, people bringing up cool tidbits about the episode etc

ZenkaiBoosts
Banned
Posts: 534
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:18 pm

Re: Super Episode 128 (18 February 2018)

Post by ZenkaiBoosts » Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:30 pm

Toshio deserves major love

Toshio also wrote 116 (another one of my fav Super episodes that was also very emotional)

Also 121 (another one of my favorite episodes)

Toshio is amazing at writing emotional episodes

I hope Toshio is promoted higher, and that most of the emotional episodes are given to him

Dave2770
Newbie
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:28 pm

Re: Super Episode 128 (18 February 2018)

Post by Dave2770 » Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:37 pm

All you guys do is complain and compare to z. This show is good man. It's good in its own modern way. Stop complaining you guys think you could do better turn off the internet go close your eyes and imagine an episode of Dragonball super exactly how you wish it would play out.

Watching characters get eliminated it's no different than a Dragonball budokai tenkaichi tournament. It's the same shit.

The only complaint to have is goku getting more transformations or winning again. I think he should lose. Then jiren would somehow make a wish and goku and beerus would never meet and they'd never know about ssj God and the ending of z would be perfect. Super would retcon itself. This may be possible. Otherwise I've yet to see people enjoy an episode. Even episode 110 you had 30% of people complaining. People who complain and cry just aren't happy with anything and I'd like to see how they get by in the world.

User avatar
Artorias
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 439
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:54 pm

Re: Super Episode 128 (18 February 2018)

Post by Artorias » Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:48 pm

supersaiyanZero wrote:
Amir wrote:
supersaiyanZero wrote:
The choreography in this episode was awful. Compare this to, Vegeta's last stand against Kid Buu, Super Buu, Fat Buu, Frieza, Zarbon, Recoome, etc. It's very stiff, one dimensional, there is little to no impact or creativity in composition - just an overall mess. Creatively the show has just continued to fail in creating atmosphere, displaying emotions or the character's convictions, or displaying these fighting bouts in any interesting way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW49MyMtdU4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LliGkyoEdwY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_xowoA8aDs

Compared to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh4oT0-S4a0

it's just laughable.
No it is not. Those fights you mentioned barely had any creative choreography of martial arts, mostly repeated frames, and Super has many fights with much better choreographies. This episode had some actual martial arts moves, cool dodging, blocking and flashy moves, something Z didn't often have. It's not even close to the best Super has. Also, how can you call this episode an overall mess and then mention the Goku vs Frieza fight, which is mostly contained of Rough looped frames and an actual mess.

Saiyng it was one dimensional and stiff is super vague, what do you even mean by one dimensional? It wasn't just looped frames of punching, there was quite a bit of variety in the fighting department so it's definitely not one dimensional. As for this being stiff, I don't even know what you mean by that, the way you describe it is missing context. How can a choreography even be stiff, you may not like the animation itself and how the movements looked, but it has nothing to do with actual fighting choreography. Everything else you said about creativity in composition has nothing to do with chroeography so it's irrelevant and also subjective. I strongly disagree about the fighting lacking impact and emotion, I thought the impact was rather strong when Jiren knocked the Blue out of Goku and the rest of the hits, and how both Goku and Vegeta looked desperate with their futile assaults. I have no idea what you mean by creativity in composition, composiotion in animated films is all about the special effects, the colors, matching backgrounds to the animation and the way everything is put together basically, it's vague like I already said.
Quite a bit of variety? Vegeta and Jiren exchanged the same lackluster punches in using almost the same boring composition the entire time, with a judo chop thrown in there. Even Vegeta's big moment during the Takahashi episode was "I can see through your...flurry of punches." I don't know what show you're watching because it was definitely no martial arts spectacle. I had to watch the whole fight after this post just to make sure I wasn't crazy or for some reason didn't see something. When I say the choreography is stiff (the animation is as well but that's another issue), it's because it seems very contained and there is nothing dynamic about it. It feels like it's set on the same 2D plane virtually in every episode. An example of nice choreography and direction is Toppo VS Frieza.

Composition is not all about special effects. It's an image, even though it's a moving image. Composing scenes for films follow similar rules in photography even though they themselves aren't still. There is a way to lead the viewers eye in exciting and creative ways that leave an impact on the viewer. Colors also play into this. There is almost none of that in Super and definitely none of that in in this fight. Vegeta vs Kid Buu was 1000% more creative and dynamic. Vegeta vs Zarbon didn't look as pretty as the other examples but it was executed better than this. I didn't even mention Frieza vs Goku, but even though it dragged on for too long I can guarantee you that I can pull scenes from there that make this one look like a joke.
"The choreography in this episode was awful."

That is an opinion so utterly insane to me that I don't even know where to begin responding. So I guess I won't. It's fine if you think that I guess, but I don't. So...yea.
I've provided examples of dynamic choreography in Z. Can you please show me examples in this fight? I don't think you can because there isn't any. Even Vegeta's attempt to break Jirens arm was boring and stiff.
I'm mainly referring to the Goku vs. Jiren section. And I'm not saying it's some incredible dynamic spectacle. I just thought it was solid and better than usual.

ZenkaiBoosts
Banned
Posts: 534
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:18 pm

Re: Super Episode 128 (18 February 2018)

Post by ZenkaiBoosts » Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:12 pm

"" You know I think after that episode Goku has to win. Not because its "predictable" but because after what Vegeta did Goku has to do it. Vegeta fought to the very last even if he knew there was no chance of winning. And when it was over he gave the last of his energy to Goku and trusted everything to Goku. Goku knows everyone is counting on him he has to do it. To still lose to Jiren after all that would be even worse then then ending of the Future Trunks arc. ""

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 2533
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Super Episode 128 (18 February 2018)

Post by Miracles » Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:26 pm

Well, I didn't like the episode. Vegeta's pride allowing him to stand against Jiren was forced and unbelievable. Did TOEI really expect me to buy Jiren couldn't knock this dude out with a punch? Let alone needing to block or dodge ANY of fatigue base Vegeta's Superman level punches? A few episodes back, Jiren was letting a full powered Blue Vegeta punch him everywhere and couldn't even hurt him without blocking or moving.
Vegeta repeating his pride speech was expected. However I didn't think they would drag it out this long. We did see Vegeta talk about protecting family and call Jiren an emotionless monster. Something new I think. All This was just a call back to Vegeta stalling with Buu. If you noticed all Vegeta's big moments were call backs, Final Flash, The sacrifice explosion, and now this stall for Goku again. I did not like how they handled Vegeta this TOP.

As for Goku vs Jiren. I couldn't buy it either. Goku turns Blue on little stamina and Jiren pwns him out of it and someone comments in the stands; "Not even Blue is a match against Jiren?!!" No, you think, Blue wasn't a match for Jiren before and all of a sudden a powered up Jiren is gonna get handled by Blue? Goku just got another friendship boost. Now TOEI is using the theme of trust as a catalyst to defeat Jiren. I really do hope Jiren beats Goku due to Freeza still being in the TOP. Freeza has to aid Goku or strike the finishing blow on Jiren like Yajirobe did Vegeta, lololol.
Last edited by Miracles on Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."~Psalm 14:1

ZenkaiBoosts
Banned
Posts: 534
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:18 pm

Re: Super Episode 128 (18 February 2018)

Post by ZenkaiBoosts » Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:30 pm

lord turbo wrote:
Vegeta_Sama wrote:
SsjCookie wrote: Now I'm actually hoping Goku loses against Jiren to make this arc at least a bit more interesting story wise.
There's absolutely nothing interesting about Goku losing AGAIN in Super. We saw that a billion times already, I'm getting sick of it by now: Beerus, Golden Frieza, Frost, Hit, Zamasu etc. Goku has just been a punching bag for everyone in this series. The only characters he managed to defeat are Botamo, and Copy Vegeta. Jiren winning would be the most anticlimactic thing that could ever happened after all of this buildup for Ultra Instinct.
To be fair, Goku losing to Jiren would fit in line with Toriyama being contrarian and would be a safe route to go since Jiren is not an evil-doer and add any form of character development by having Jiren beat Goku winning the battle, but losing the war internally as "something" about Goku changes him where he uses the Super DBs to wish everyone back.

It would also serve as a great clash that even with all of Goku's massive nakama/friendship power he fails not only himself, but everyone and serves as a learning lesson for Goku to change for the better and take up Whis suggestion about fighting as a team rather than separately due to warrior arrogance and pride as not everything works out for him by his own choices and actions in the end, sometimes, sometimes he's at the whim of others.

That would be better than Goku beating Jiren or Jiren losing through a contrived forced technicality through Freeza because everyone "forgot" about him still existing in.my honest opinion.
ZenkaiBoosts wrote:
DiegoBrando wrote:
I think you need to stop watching anime and go read a book. More importantly, I think you need to stop spamming this topic with constantly repeating the same shit and telling everyone how epic and deep this episode was..
You have no right to tell me what to do. You have no right to tell me what I should think or what my opinions should be. Understand that people have differing opinions to you
I think what he may be trying to say is that your praise is too over the top, like a person who laughs way harder than everyone else at a mildly funny joke or you're giving a 4/10 meal a 9/10. You come off somewhat as an overly excited and easily amused small child that doesn't know how to convey their thoughts accordingly, basically dial it back some so that you're not seen as an exaggerated CinemaWins/Ned Flanders type poster. I guess what I'm trying to say is don't be so far off in the opposite extreme of negativity. This is not a personal attack on you, just an observation.
SsjCookie wrote:
DiegoBrando wrote: Vegeta gets beaten, even when he gives it everything he's got and Goku gets a powerup yet again, and now has the upper hand. Wow we've certainly never seen this one before zzz...
I was thinking the exact same thing, where have I seen this scene before?
It would have been more original if Vegeta would have been the last man standing.
Now I'm actually hoping Goku loses against Jiren to make this arc at least a bit more interesting story wise.
DiegoBrando wrote:Jiren looks less intimidating by the day, and the animation is still god awful. I hope Dragon Ball ends forever after this. Leave new stories to non-cannon videogames.
Sadly I agree.
I honestly feel sorry for Vegeta, his moment in the light feels incredibly main character/protaganist like, this is probably how Goku should be acting and demonstrating those qualities, not Vegeta, but no, Goku is a generic 1 dimensional card board cut out that can only think of food and fighting, his conversation with Ribrianne about what he wants illustrate this problem.

Even worst is that all his efforts feel largely unearned and just handed to him because "main character" yo. I'm talking about emotional weight and not the asspull power ups, basically the scene with Goku thinking about everyone and all that trust placed on him falls flat to me because Goku himself has been very distant and absent in his own little world not thinking about much until a light is shine on him forcing him to be the reluctant hero when all he wants to do is kick ass and chew bubble gum.

Case in point, I can't help but feel what is suppose to be an epic shining moment when UI kicks in becomes somewhat dishearting due to Goku's cold, dead, stern, and empty expressions, like he's not really there, just going through the motions. Goku was far more expressive when he turned SS against Freeza on Namek, here Goku slides to close to tranquil fury when he has zero reasons to be angry with Jiren, if anything, be angry at Zeno and Grand Priest for setting up this tournament that forces everyone to fight for their survival all for some thoughtless kids amusement.

All the ingredients for semi-thought provoking, engaging, and emotional investment is right there, but no one is capitalizing on it, well I take that back, someone is but the writing and direction is so mediocre that when ultilized it comes off comical and heavy handed/ham fisted like Vegeta's resolve this entire episode, laughable

Again, not a fault on the VA, he did solid, its the lousy script and directing that squandered it all.
Wow. What an immature thing to say. Show some class and respect. No need to name call me and tear down my opinions just because you don't like them. Such toxic behavior. You insult me as a "small child" just because I'm overly positive about an episode I LOVED watching. You need to calm down, dial it down, and realise that people love things you don't like. Maybe you don't have the capacity to get excited or show emotion because of things going on in your life, BUT I'm a positive happy person who will show emotion - especially about things I enjoyed. This is what I mean when I say that positive opinions are attacked, but when negative opinions are actually challenged all hell breaks loose

Also your reasons for why you personally think it would be better for Goku to lose don't make narrative sense

It was forshadowed that it would come down to a Goku vs Jiren rematch 1 vs 1

To have Goku lose, just to prove something minor Whis said hundreds of episodes ago, ruins the narrative that has been building currently. Your scenario sounds more like just fan fiction

This whole arc has clearly been foreshadowing Goku breaking his shell and surpassing his limits

Every time Goku awakened Omen, Goku got stronger

Toppo himself even warned Jiren "Son Goku continues to grow stronger"

Toppo warning Jiren about Goku was ominous foreshadowing

Jiren should not be able to keep dominating the way he has, against Goku's new mastered UI form. I don't see how Jiren should logically be able to stand a chance against UI mastered Goku.

Lastly, for Vegeta and all of Universe 7 to put all their trust into Goku only for Goku to still lose, would ruin all that growth/developement/narrative building

Not only is Goku winning the most logical and perfect ending, it would be the most satisfying ending that ends Super on the highest note possible

At the end of the day people have a hard time remembering that Goku is the main charcater. Despite Goku being the main charcater, he hasn't had 1 big legit win yet in Super. That's terrible and needs to change, especially to close out Super.

Goku beating Jiren and winning IS the most unpredictable ending because Goku hasn't won in Super yet. And everyone is already expecting Jiren to just keep beating Goku up like he has been doing the past 10 episodes. Thats whats predictable ans more of the same. It's time for a change. It's time for Son Goku to rise up and over come !!! Let's go Goku baby !
Last edited by ZenkaiBoosts on Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

ZenkaiBoosts
Banned
Posts: 534
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:18 pm

Re: Super Episode 128 (18 February 2018)

Post by ZenkaiBoosts » Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:44 pm

Vegeta_Sama wrote:Come on guys, don't be so harsh on ZenkaiBoosts, he just liked the episode and he is very passionate about it, there's nothing wrong with that. Our lives are already full of conflict, many come on this forum to relax and talk about what they enjoy, with people who share the same passion, he doesn't need to be made fun of like that.
Thank you my brother. I really appreciate that. You are a tremendous poster, so that means even more to me. Much love.

Those people are literally proving everything I said. I don't need to say any more. Their actions proved my points

ZenkaiBoosts
Banned
Posts: 534
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:18 pm

Re: Super Episode 128 (18 February 2018)

Post by ZenkaiBoosts » Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:47 pm

Asura wrote:Every week we hear both Vegeta AND ZenkaiBoosts giving the same speech over and over again. :lol:
Haha
Asura wrote:And people thought I was joking when I said there are people on this forum who think the Super 17 arc is better than the ToP.

Delusional, if you ask me.
You are just as over-opinionated and emotional: )

I'm sure if you started reading my posts you would start liking me! Btw, did you catch my response. You quoted me.

ZenkaiBoosts
Banned
Posts: 534
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:18 pm

Re: Super Episode 128 (18 February 2018)

Post by ZenkaiBoosts » Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:54 pm

Zagacious wrote:
Vegeta_Sama wrote:Come on guys, don't be so harsh on ZenkaiBoosts, he just liked the episode and he is very passionate about it, there's nothing wrong with that. Our lives are already full of conflict, many come on this forum to relax and talk about what they enjoy, with people who share the same passion, he doesn't need to be made fun of like that.
He is the one creating the conflict.
Completely false

How come it's only been you and Diccolo?

I've agreed with others who didn't like the episode

There have been others shitting on the episode and I haven't responded to them at all.

Exlain those things

The fact is it's simply just been you and Diccolo. I already told you to relax. You need to realize that people are allowed to love things you hate.

I've had many positive interactions with others in this thread.

There's a reason why it's just you and that Diccolo persona

And you continue to try and drag this out. You are creating the conflict. If you want to keep going on with your personal issues, then PM me. Dont continue to drag this thread down when this should've ended yesterday. It's done now.

Dave2770
Newbie
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:28 pm

Re: Super Episode 128 (18 February 2018)

Post by Dave2770 » Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:02 pm

Miracles wrote:Well, I didn't like the episode. Vegeta's pride allowing him to stand against Jiren was forced and unbelievable. Did TOEI really expect me to buy Jiren couldn't knock this dude out with a punch? Let alone needing to block or dodge ANY of fatigue base Vegeta's Superman level punches? A few episodes back, Jiren was letting a full powered Blue Vegeta punch him everywhere and couldn't even hurt him without blocking or moving.
Vegeta repeating his pride speech was expected. However I didn't think they would drag it out this long. We did see Vegeta talk about protecting family and call Jiren an emotionless monster. Something new I think. All This was just a call back to Vegeta stalling with Buu. If you noticed all Vegeta's big moments were call backs, Final Flash, The sacrifice explosion, and now this stall for Goku again. I did not like how they handled Vegeta this TOP.

As for Goku vs Jiren. I couldn't buy it either. Goku turns Blue on little stamina and Jiren pwns him out of it and someone comments in the stands; "Not even Blue is a match against Jiren?!!" No, you think, Blue wasn't a match for Jiren before and all of a sudden a powered up Jiren is gonna get handled by Blue? Goku just got another friendship boost. Now TOEI is using the theme of trust as a catalyst to defeat Jiren. I really do hope Jiren beats Goku due to Freeza still being in the TOP. Freeza has to aid Goku or strike the finishing blow on Jiren like Yajirobe did Vegeta, lololol.

You understand jiren blocking a punch isn't necessary. It's just to show that Vegetas effort is all being stopped. Jiren isn't even serious there. Next episode preview has him beating non mastered UI so when jiren is serious he can take everyone out but likes to play around and destroy everyone's hope bit by bit like he did with vegeta. If he just knocked him out all of a sudden vegeta wouldn't be as destroyed mentally as him getting back up over and over just to get knocked down

Nevertheless I absolutely don't want jiren to lose. I don't want goku to lose either. I want frieza to be there to tie it with goku defeated. We need jiren to remain stronger when the season ends. Enough of goku winning against someone that's been so hyped. Jiren actually has a backstory and I think his power should remain and not be disrespectes by having him defeated. With a tie, both universes stay alive and jiren and everyone shake hands

User avatar
Miracles
I Live Here
Posts: 2533
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Re: Super Episode 128 (18 February 2018)

Post by Miracles » Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:09 pm

Dave2770 wrote:You understand jiren blocking a punch isn't necessary. It's just to show that Vegetas effort is all being stopped. Jiren isn't even serious there. Next episode preview has him beating non mastered UI so when jiren is serious he can take everyone out but likes to play around and destroy everyone's hope bit by bit like he did with vegeta. If he just knocked him out all of a sudden vegeta wouldn't be as destroyed mentally as him getting back up over and over just to get knocked down

Nevertheless I absolutely don't want jiren to lose. I don't want goku to lose either. I want frieza to be there to tie it with goku defeated. We need jiren to remain stronger when the season ends. Enough of goku winning against someone that's been so hyped. Jiren actually has a backstory and I think his power should remain and not be disrespectes by having him defeated. With a tie, both universes stay alive and jiren and everyone shake hands
I agree with Jiren not losing. However, I know Jiren was holding back against Vegeta. I'm saying all he could of done was knock Vegeta out in one blow. That would have caused mental breakdown, as you say, than letting him get back up thinking he actually is doing something and giving energy to Goku.
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."~Psalm 14:1

ZenkaiBoosts
Banned
Posts: 534
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:18 pm

Re: Super Episode 128 (18 February 2018)

Post by ZenkaiBoosts » Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:10 pm

Dave2770 wrote:
Miracles wrote:Well, I didn't like the episode. Vegeta's pride allowing him to stand against Jiren was forced and unbelievable. Did TOEI really expect me to buy Jiren couldn't knock this dude out with a punch? Let alone needing to block or dodge ANY of fatigue base Vegeta's Superman level punches? A few episodes back, Jiren was letting a full powered Blue Vegeta punch him everywhere and couldn't even hurt him without blocking or moving.
Vegeta repeating his pride speech was expected. However I didn't think they would drag it out this long. We did see Vegeta talk about protecting family and call Jiren an emotionless monster. Something new I think. All This was just a call back to Vegeta stalling with Buu. If you noticed all Vegeta's big moments were call backs, Final Flash, The sacrifice explosion, and now this stall for Goku again. I did not like how they handled Vegeta this TOP.

As for Goku vs Jiren. I couldn't buy it either. Goku turns Blue on little stamina and Jiren pwns him out of it and someone comments in the stands; "Not even Blue is a match against Jiren?!!" No, you think, Blue wasn't a match for Jiren before and all of a sudden a powered up Jiren is gonna get handled by Blue? Goku just got another friendship boost. Now TOEI is using the theme of trust as a catalyst to defeat Jiren. I really do hope Jiren beats Goku due to Freeza still being in the TOP. Freeza has to aid Goku or strike the finishing blow on Jiren like Yajirobe did Vegeta, lololol.

You understand jiren blocking a punch isn't necessary. It's just to show that Vegetas effort is all being stopped. Jiren isn't even serious there. Next episode preview has him beating non mastered UI so when jiren is serious he can take everyone out but likes to play around and destroy everyone's hope bit by bit like he did with vegeta. If he just knocked him out all of a sudden vegeta wouldn't be as destroyed mentally as him getting back up over and over just to get knocked down
People domt realize how much of an under rated savage Jiren is lol

Jiren is a good guy, but it will be satisfying when Mastered UI Goku humbles him from his pedastool

If you watch reaction vids people were losing their minds when Omen Goku hit that counter hook to the body and had Jiren doubling over in pain

People loved watching Goku hurt Jiren and making Jiren pay

It would be awesome if after the tournament Jiren grew another level of respect for Goku and either decided to train with Goku or team up

Imagine an arc where team Goku and Jiren team up against the evil doer of universe 11

What if the evil doer is one of the 5 strongest fighters in the multi verse

User avatar
Asura
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1919
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:53 pm

Re: Super Episode 128 (18 February 2018)

Post by Asura » Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:11 pm

ZenkaiBoosts wrote:
You are just as over-opinionated and emotional: )
I don't think so. While I've definitely had passionate arguments about Super in the past (whether I was the one calling an episode garbage, or someone else was calling an episode garbage that I thought was great) at the end of the day, it's just a children's cartoon show. I've probably ever only gotten emotionally annoyed once, when I made a thread dedicated to discussing the positive aspects of the arc (since there's so many threads, or at least were, that were constantly shitting on the arc) and some people came in and derailed it and made it into yet another negative thread about the show which had me rather peeved.

Otherwise though, I enjoy arguing with people. It's fun trying to see the other person's side and where they're coming from. The important thing to realize though is that at the end of the day everyone has their opinions. Sure, it's annoying to see so much negativity compared to positivity in this arc sometimes, to the point where I've also argued that other communities view the arc positively and here on Kanzenshuu most people view it negatively, but the truth is that negative voices simply speak the loudest, but don't always represent reality. In a poll I did here asking for people's ratings on this arc a few weeks ago, the #1, #2, and #3 responses were 7/10, 6/10, and 8/10 respectively, although 4/10 was very much up there too, it wasn't close to first place, more closer to 3rd. Someone manipulated the poll like 2 or 3 days later into having 1/10 in like, 2nd place, and it was very obvious given it went from 1 vote to 20 votes overnight. Pretty sad, but it's fine since I got the legit results before that happened.

What I'd say differs between us however is that sometimes you get a little too passionate about the show, and you go way overboard with trying to get people to like an episode, that's pretty evident simply by the amount of posts you make. I don't dislike you and I hope I didn't give off that impression, I just think you need to chill a little and take your own advice about accepting the opinions of others. Challenging other people's opinions is fine, but getting so passionate about trying to make people view things your way just isn't going to work. I've had so many arguments end where the other person just says "We're not going to see eye to eye on this issue" and yeah, it's basically true. I can tell you an episode is shit, you can tell me it's the most amazing episode in the entirety of the franchise. With two complete polar opposite viewpoints like that, we could argue all day but probably won't ever find middle ground. Argue enough to get the other person to explain the rationale behind their opinion, and counter it with your opinions, but just know that you probably won't be changing their mind.

You're fine though, just tone it down a notch. Being passionate about something is good, but sometimes when someone is overly passionate about something and constantly expressing it, it might get on other people's nerves. Also, please fix your post structure, it's very hard to read sometimes when you stretch out a few sentences that have the same length as a post like this and I have way more content in my post just in terms of word count, yet the size of our posts wind up being the same.

Oh, and no I don't think I saw your reply, or at least I'm not sure what you're referring to.

ZenkaiBoosts
Banned
Posts: 534
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:18 pm

Re: Super Episode 128 (18 February 2018)

Post by ZenkaiBoosts » Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:14 pm

"Enough of goku winning against someone that's been so hyped."

Tp be fair, Goku hasn't had 1 win in Super yet, despite the fact Goku is the main charcater. That's a pretty awful stat if you ask me. That needs to change. We need to see Goku get that big to close out Super in the greatest biggest way possible.

I can't wait. I'm insanely hyped for Goku's new UI mastered form. I don't see any way how Jiren can stand up to that. Jiren may surpass a god, but thats some angle level stuff right there. Son Goku about to be approaching the angles now!!!

Post Reply