Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Android350 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:19 am

Should Jiren have been eliminated for attacking the spectators/eliminated warriors?

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Hawk9211 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:23 am

Artorias wrote:
precita wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
The worst part of the episode, however, was the over-the-top melodrama. Characters getting stronger by reminiscing over their past or their loved ones. What is this, Fairy Tail? Dragon Ball had done of good job of avoiding this kind of kitsch shit. It's just so incredibly awful, melodrama like this has no place in Dragon Ball. Jiren gets mad and thinks of his past. Makes a big speech about it. Gets massively stronger. Goku gets mad and thinks of his friends. Makes a big speech about it. Gets massively stronger. You know what those kinds of emotions got you in the original series (minus some very scarce exceptions, and ignoring the fact that melodramatic speeches weren't present in the original series to begin with)? An ass-kicking.
This is the same thing Dragonball has always done, what the Spirit Bomb scenes are about, what characters giving Goku energy is about, and what Goku always does. He'll always save and believe in his friends and fight for them. This is what Dragonball is about.
That really isn't what DB is about though, save for a few specific scenes here and there. Goku never actively used his friends as a direct motivator, in the sense that we the audience never saw it, and the show didn't choose to dwell on it like this. We could ASSUME that Goku was fighting for his friends against Cell, for instance, of course, but they didn't need to have some big melodramatic speech about it.

It's actually one of those things that people take for granted, in that DB spawned the shonen craze, and a lot of those shows that were inspired by DB went on to rely a lot on this "the power of friendship" trope. But if you actually go back and pay attention, DB itself never really placed much weight on this trick. The show never really fell back on this cliche, and those rare times it did, it amounted to jack shit, like when Goku thinks of his family and fires a KKx20 at Freeza.
The only instance spirit bomb worked would not be possible without a magical dragon.
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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by JazzMazz » Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:24 am

Android350 wrote:Should Jiren have been eliminated for attacking the spectators/eliminated warriors?
I don't think that was ever really a stated rule?
I mean, I know spectating attacking people in the arena was a problem, but never vice versa.
Last edited by JazzMazz on Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Kantico » Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:37 am

a lot of photos, videos, reactions, etc:

https://regeneracion.mx/asi-se-proyecto ... -el-mundo/

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Android350 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:41 am

JazzMazz wrote:
Android350 wrote:Should Jiren have been eliminated for attacking the spectators/eliminated warriors?
I don't think that was ever really a stated real?
I mean, I know spectating attacking people in the arena was a problem, but never vice versa.
hmmm now I'm not sure which way it was announced...

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Michsi » Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:00 am

Simere wrote:
Michsi wrote:I haven't read the whole thread, but it seems there is some discussion refarding the "power of friendship".

Personally, I thought it was handled well and that it isn't contradicting anything we know about Goku. Yes, he fights for himself and his desire to surpass his own limits, but it's ludicrous to assume that in a situation such as this, with everyone's lives on the line, that he would not be thinking of them and fight for them as well. Goku's selfishness is childlike, but it never crossed into heartlessness. And it's not the first time he did this; BOG has a very similar scene.

Also, it's very clearly meant to contradict Jiren's stance on the matter, which I think was nice.
A few episodes ago when Vegeta was receiving nakama power, so many people were going on about how Vegeta has more motivation to win than anyone and that he should win because of that. As if he's the only one in the tournament who has a family. Why didn't it save Krillin? Obuni? Selectively rewarding love with tangible power sends the message that only that character's love matters. I mean, that's not what they're trying to say, but that's how it comes across to me. And what's it say when nothing comes of it? Did Jiren not love his family and his master? Did they not love him? Did Goku falter at the end of this episode because he didn't love strongly enough?

That's my typical gripe with nakama power, plus the feeling that it cheapens actual effort. For Goku in this arc particularly, though, the theme that resonated mostly strongly was that the fight itself is what matters. It's the message of the Ultimate Battle song, and Ultra Instinct is the embodiment of it. Whis's speech last episode about Goku expelling all other distractions from his focus besides the fight was perfect. For Goku the next episode to say, "This is our power!"...I'm going to pretend it didn't happen.

Goku's purity is the most unique part of his character. That's the contrast I'd keep in focus: their differing attitudes towards strength. I will say, though, that I found it hilarious when Jiren tried to kill them. That saved the episode for me. Made Goku start acting in a way that didn't rub me wrong again.
I agree, the writing has been all over the place and thematic direction suffers quite a because of that. We have Piccolo telling Gohan to not think of his family and just focus on the fight, we have Goku zipping left and right to fight as many people as he can, we have many U& characters forgo team work to fight alone,'cuz that's how they roll, we have Goku straight up saying that all he practically cares about is fighting strong opponents. Despite that, I still believe Goku thinking of the others is not that strange or out of place. Circumstances help with selling it. Same as in BOG, when the danger of his friends getting hurt is immediate, his protectiveness and affection for them becomes apparent. As it should. No matter how much DB tries to avoid sentimentality, to have Goku not be concerned about his family and friends in that moment would be beyond cold. People take "Goku is pure, fights just for fighting" to the extreme.

And it just might be that hearing Jiren's story and his views regarding bonds and friends prompted Goku's feelings on the matter to rise to the surface. See, Jiren did love his family and friends, but he chose to throw them away. Goku doesn't. He very much believes he came as far as he did as a warrior thanks to the people in his life, Roshi narrates that for us.

Granted, more consistent writing from the beginning could've helped with episodes building up to this moment, but I think it was confirmed that episode writers aren't really plugged-in as far each individual contribution is concerned.
I'd say it's so heavily prominent in shonen, though, that even if DB as a whole hasn't it used it that much it's going to feel trite. Plus it had a big role in the last arc too.
It is used a lot in other shows,

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Legion » Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:05 am

Jiren acted like a coward in this episode.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by t0ffe3m4n » Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:06 am

I think I'm gonna wait for a little while before I put my thoughts together, I'm still unbelievably hyped after watching that.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Husig » Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:23 am

Did toppo final realized that goku is a good guy after the speech of roshi?

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by JazzMazz » Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:26 am

Husig wrote:Did toppo final realized that goku is a good guy after the speech of roshi?
Well, that's kind of what is implied at least.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Super Saiyan Swagger » Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:45 am

These reactions are the equivalent of seeing your home country score a goal in the World Cup. I love watching people get so excited over Dragon Ball. I wish I could've witnessed the episode in that kind of environment. Would've been the best thing ever.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by JazzMazz » Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:00 am

Re-watching the episode, I think outside of the fighting, I think the episode does a good job of providing some insight and retrospective into Goku's character, and how he feels towards his friends and those who have trust in him.

That doesn't necessarily mean you need to like it, but I think it at the very least does a very good job at presenting exactly what kind of character Goku is(at least to the writers and directors of Super).

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:00 am

I was hoping for a one two punch of really good animation and writing as was the case with the special but only really the spectacle delivered, and how at that. Everyone from Tate to Shida kicked all kinds of ass and it looks like 131 won't collapse in on itself as 67 did after 66 brought everyone in similar to this week.

The writing remains thoroughly shit for me. I get what they want to do: Jiren's the guy entirely out for himself and Goku, in a twist, is supposed to be the guy not being selfish for once. On paper, that's pretty great, execution wise I don't really feel anything. Jiren's motivations for how and why he is the way he is does nothing for me, it doesn't make him interesting or even sympathetic and their way of having Goku convey how unselfish he is for once is literally every trite, Shonen protagonist "FOR MUH NAKAMA!" spiel ever delivered.

Now, if Jiren had a thing similar to Toppo where he believed in something but then gave it all up to power himself up while Goku does the opposite, that would've worked spectacularly well with the two starting at different points then concluding at their pollar opposites by the end of their struggle.

It's also teeth grindly annoying how they also backpeddle on last episode where Goku delibarately not caring about anything but the battle itself is what helps him further master UI but now he's getting powerful by doing the opposite? I don't give a fuck what excuse you want to throw at this show, that's an insult to everyone who's paying even one iota of attention to what people are doing and saying.

As it stands, the only compliment I can give any of this stuff is that Jiren's voice actor is REALLY good at sounding like someone is kicking his shit in whenever Jiren screams in pain.
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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by LightBing » Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:21 am

Goodish episode, don't know how else to put it. The animation and fight was great, some of the best we ever had in Dragon Ball. The rest I personally didn't like it at all, the various problems with the anime were sum up here.

Giving Jiren a power up so that they could give Goku a "nakama" power up was bad. What was the point of that besides being cheesy? It was over the top to cheaply bring some emotions out of the viewers, common trend in the anime. This wrapped in Jiren attempted murder which is bad from several perspectives.

#17 is still alive, it completely nullifies the episode where he did it. Only because that episode by itself was already ridiculous(you know with characters having infinite stamina). Seriously disappointed.

Oh look is that Goku in preview being fine once again?! :o Yeah...

"Impossible! You shouldn't have any stamina left!"
I wonder if this line from Jiren is self-awareness of the writers or delusion thinking such sentence carries any meaning at this point.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by lord turbo » Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:25 am

Artorias wrote:
precita wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
The worst part of the episode, however, was the over-the-top melodrama. Characters getting stronger by reminiscing over their past or their loved ones. What is this, Fairy Tail? Dragon Ball had done of good job of avoiding this kind of kitsch shit. It's just so incredibly awful, melodrama like this has no place in Dragon Ball. Jiren gets mad and thinks of his past. Makes a big speech about it. Gets massively stronger. Goku gets mad and thinks of his friends. Makes a big speech about it. Gets massively stronger. You know what those kinds of emotions got you in the original series (minus some very scarce exceptions, and ignoring the fact that melodramatic speeches weren't present in the original series to begin with)? An ass-kicking.
This is the same thing Dragonball has always done, what the Spirit Bomb scenes are about, what characters giving Goku energy is about, and what Goku always does. He'll always save and believe in his friends and fight for them. This is what Dragonball is about.
That really isn't what DB is about though, save for a few specific scenes here and there. Goku never actively used his friends as a direct motivator, in the sense that we the audience never saw it, and the show didn't choose to dwell on it like this. We could ASSUME that Goku was fighting for his friends against Cell, for instance, of course, but they didn't need to have some big melodramatic speech about it.

It's actually one of those things that people take for granted, in that DB spawned the shonen craze, and a lot of those shows that were inspired by DB went on to rely a lot on this "the power of friendship" trope. But if you actually go back and pay attention, DB itself never really placed much weight on this trick. The show never really fell back on this cliche, and those rare times it did, it amounted to jack shit, like when Goku thinks of his family and fires a KKx20 at Freeza.
The problem here is that some people want to do revisionist history and either twist or stretch certain sems to mean something completely else. The Cell Saga is a good example as it is explicitly mentioned Goku is not fighting for the Earth or his friends, the same thing happens during the Buu Saga where the fate of the universe is on the line and all Goku can focus on is the momdnt of the fight and nothing else with Vegeta's inner dialogue stating he's fighting for himself and not for anything like love, peace, family, or friends where his attitude allows him to push his own limits and so on.

This consistent character trait exist through out db/z and most of DBS, hell, Whis in the previous episode mentioned this very thing abouy Goku's nature, but of course since it conflicts with the current episode people want to try and bend history and say deep down Goku was a hero with a heart od gold that fought against oppression and for the little guy and etc.

Yeah, no, don't twist Goku into something he's not is all I'm saying.
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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by JazzMazz » Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:30 am

lord turbo wrote:
Artorias wrote:
precita wrote:
This is the same thing Dragonball has always done, what the Spirit Bomb scenes are about, what characters giving Goku energy is about, and what Goku always does. He'll always save and believe in his friends and fight for them. This is what Dragonball is about.
That really isn't what DB is about though, save for a few specific scenes here and there. Goku never actively used his friends as a direct motivator, in the sense that we the audience never saw it, and the show didn't choose to dwell on it like this. We could ASSUME that Goku was fighting for his friends against Cell, for instance, of course, but they didn't need to have some big melodramatic speech about it.

It's actually one of those things that people take for granted, in that DB spawned the shonen craze, and a lot of those shows that were inspired by DB went on to rely a lot on this "the power of friendship" trope. But if you actually go back and pay attention, DB itself never really placed much weight on this trick. The show never really fell back on this cliche, and those rare times it did, it amounted to jack shit, like when Goku thinks of his family and fires a KKx20 at Freeza.
The problem here is that some people want to do revisionist history and either twist or stretch certain sems to mean something completely else. The Cell Saga is a good example as it is explicitly mentioned Goku is not fighting for the Earth or his friends, the same thing happens during the Buu Saga where the fate of the universe is on the line and all Goku can focus on is the momdnt of the fight and nothing else with Vegeta's inner dialogue stating he's fighting for himself and not for anything like love, peace, family, or friends where his attitude allows him to push his own limits and so on.

This consistent character trait exist through out db/z and most of DBS, hell, Whis in the previous episode mentioned this very thing abouy Goku's nature, but of course since it conflicts with the current episode people want to try and bend history and say deep down Goku was a hero with a heart od gold that fought against oppression and for the little guy and etc.

Yeah, no, don't twist Goku into something he's not is all I'm saying.
Why is no one treating Goku's obvious change of motivation, which is in stark contrast to 122, as a progression or development of his mentality during this arc? Since its pretty obvious that's what they were going for.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:47 am

WHAT AN EPISODE!

Great spectacle, and I know I'm likely in the minority around here, but I felt there was great substance, too!

Jiren's empathetic emptiness is taken full advantage of to contrast him with Goku. When things get bad, Jiren falls back on power beyond power and can't accept that this approach won't get him anywhere. Goku, meanwhile, ends up relying on his friends and allies to provide their support for him, to give him the motivation he needs to push past his limits.

The shock of Ultra Instinct dissipating the way it did was definitely one of the highlights for me, as was Jiren attempting to wipe out Goku's friends.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Vegeta_Sama » Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:54 am

LightBing wrote:
Oh look is that Goku in preview being fine once again?! :o Yeah...

"Impossible! You shouldn't have any stamina left!"
I wonder if this line from Jiren is self-awareness of the writers or delusion thinking such sentence carries any meaning at this point.
Well, what do you expect him to do while the universe itself is on the line? There's only 30 seconds left, it's 100% belivable that he would push himself to his absolute limit to resist. Besides, he's in his base form, there's no indication of him beign in peak condition.
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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Exline » Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:01 am

This episode was gorgeously animated. A huge step up from 129.

I was glad my mothe rand sis were not home because for the first time in a while watching Super, I literally Fangirled. Started screaming in sheer excitement with Goku overpowering Jiren at first. I think I lost my voice the moment when 17 arrived. I passed out from screaming at the top of my lungs.

The direction. storyboarding, the choreography, the cinematography, ALL OF IT WAS GREAT. However, others like Doctor are right about the writing in this episode. It's not that impressive.

*The dialogue for the most part was awfully boring. It was the same things we keep hearing.. (It's over) (IMPOSSIBLE! YOU SHOULD BE OUT OF STAMINA). However I did enjoy Goku's speech about not recognizing himself as a hero and how he fights out of loyalty instead.
* The peanut gallery once again states the obvious every time when they should have had more debates like they were having in 129, especially that time Vegeta roasted the Gods of Destruction and his speech about Saiyans surpassing their limits throughout the tournament. They should serve to wrap things up that have been occurring throughout the tournament.
* I feel that Jiren was acting a bit OOC (However I'm willing to believe that he's gone mad from losing and is now acting like an enraged toddler flailing angrily at Goku)

Some things I can't understand that most people here dislike
* 17 being alive: His "sacrifice" was the dumbest move pulled that I had ever seen. It's so OOC and I cannot believe people were actually touched by it. He self destructs to stop a NON LETHAL Blast and you guys eat that up? And also he would've been revived anyways by the Dragon Balls. I felt nothing from his episode. People are also forgetting 17's bomb was removed. If android 16 couldn't blow himself up without it, how come 17 can? It was also obvious he could've been hiding because of his untraceable ki.

The only person who should've died (or lost) during their Self-Destruction should've been Vegeta. If his sacrifice was executed well, he would've most definitely have the most impact on everyone during this ToP. Had GoD Toppo stayed unstoppable as he was shown to be in Episode 125, his Final Atonement against Toppo would have been much more impactful.

I'll give this episode an 8.5/10 for the gorgeous animation, but it could have definitely had better writing (-1.5)

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by LightBing » Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:03 am

Vegeta_Sama wrote:
LightBing wrote:
Oh look is that Goku in preview being fine once again?! :o Yeah...

"Impossible! You shouldn't have any stamina left!"
I wonder if this line from Jiren is self-awareness of the writers or delusion thinking such sentence carries any meaning at this point.
Well, what do you expect him to do while the universe itself is on the line? There's only 30 seconds left, it's 100% belivable that he would push himself to his absolute limit to resist. Besides, he's in his base form, there's no indication of him beign in peak condition.
To stay on the ground because he's supposed to be broken. Like against Vegeta or against the Cell Jr's. With this said, I could believe him having a little of gas in the tank through sheer willpower. Except they did this numerous times throughout this arc with Goku and others, reason why I'm mocking the Jiren line.

When the writing doesn't give you limits you stop caring.

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