Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

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sintzu
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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by sintzu » Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:15 pm

Kaiosama wrote:Who cares if he beat Toppo?
The 7+ billion people living on earth ? Just because you have some residency in U11 doesn't mean the rest of us can just go there once Zeno decides to erase U7. :lol:

Freeza and 17 couldn't do anything to Toppo so if our great prince Vegeta didn't take him out we wouldn't be having this conversation now and I'm assuming you'd be on a one way trip to U11 leaving all of us behind. :cry:
Vegeta's butt is sitting in the bleachers while 17 and Frieza are still helping Goku.
The only reason those 2's butts aren't next to him is because they got lucky and didn't fall out of the ring. While they were napping it was Vegeta who made sure Goku was kept in the ring. After everything he's done he deserves a break.
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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by jeffbr92 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:20 pm

8bitdee wrote:Uh, what? My argument was that more sales =/= better product. Your charts prove that as even though DB has more sales, that doesn't make it the better product. Also, when I was talking about One Piece being a better storyteller, I was referring to the manga. And if you've picked up a single chapter of One Piece and think that DB is better, well then I have nothing else to argue because that's your opinion that you're entitled to. But objectively, OP is just better in terms of story writing and character arcs.
Your past argument was "Super is a sucess because of its audience and the money made, no matter how bad the story is" then the same could be applied to say One Piece is inferior to Dragon Ball (which in fact is), not only on Japan, but overseas.
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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by 8bitdee » Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:28 pm

jeffbr92 wrote: Your past argument was "Super is a sucess because of its audience and the money made, no matter how bad the story is" then the same could be applied to say One Piece is inferior to Dragon Ball (which in fact is), not only on Japan, but overseas.
The same can be applied to any media product, yes. But what's your point? That OP is also bad because it's successful series? That would be a reasonable argument if OP was a bad series, but it's not.
One Piece is inferior to Dragon Ball (which in fact is)
In terms of anime sales? Sure. In terms of manga sales? Not in a million years. In terms of quality? Like I said, that's your opinion, not a fact. OP is vastly superior to DB when it comes to storytelling, and that's not an opinion.

Anyway, this is off topic and I don't understand the point of this argument so I'm ending my participation in it here.
Last edited by 8bitdee on Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:30 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Son Vegito » Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:29 pm

Okay at this point I'm happy the series will be continuing as movies from now on so that they can follow Toriyama's outline more closely.

Jiren went from all justice justice to attacking the spectators?? The Android 17 twist was horrible. So the Grand priest was lying..? What's next, the Tien on the bleachers is a bunshin?

On a postive note, kudos to the animators for arguably creating the best animated episode ever in a long running anime. Fight was good too.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Doctor. » Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:30 pm

8bitdee wrote: Like I said, that's your opinion, not a fact. OP is vastly superior to DB when it comes to storytelling, and that's not an opinion.
"Your opinion is subjective but mine is fact."

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by 8bitdee » Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:35 pm

Doctor. wrote:
8bitdee wrote: Like I said, that's your opinion, not a fact. OP is vastly superior to DB when it comes to storytelling, and that's not an opinion.
"Your opinion is subjective but mine is fact."
It's not my opinion, it's the fact of what makes a good story good. I don't think OP is better than DB because I like it better, but because when you analyze it you see that it just is. Just how The Lord of the Rings is a better film than The Hobbit. It's not my opinion, it's fact.

Like I said above, this is off topic so this argument should end.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by lord turbo » Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:38 pm

8bitdee wrote:Fans Pre-130: "Super hasn't given Goku any character development at all. He's still the same dickhead he's always been, it's sooooo annoying!"

Fans post-130: "WTF Toei,show some consistency for fuck's sake. Keep Goku the same he's always been!"
No, no, no...That is not what anyone is suggesting, this is the same meaningless defense people give to valid criticism when they have no counterpoiny such as "its a kids show/it was always this terrible/ flash > substance/etc.
Michsi wrote:I don't think it's that. I honestly think that the prospect of everyone dying just pushed him further, it's just relayed to us in a super poetic way because it needs to stand in contradiction to Jiren's world view. Not to mention that Toppo's reaction help drive home another point "Oh, so he does care about others." This, again, is to place him as Jiren's opposite. Jiren is a hero, but he doesn't care about others; Goku isn't a hero, but he does care about the people in his life.
That is a problem Toriyama has with DB in general, he doesn't know how to show without telling. Had this never been verbally said out loud Toppo would think no differently of Goku meaning his actions does not match the words being spoken when they should one and the same, but that requires Toriyama putting in actual talented effort amd that guy's whole MO is less work the better.
lancerman wrote:a lot of people would argue that the Cell arc was the out of character anomaly arc.

Goku only stormed the Red Ribbon Army base for his friend Upa so he could get all the Dragon Balls and ressurect Bora.

Goku's entire motivation in the King Piccolo arc was that Kuriren was killed and his friends were getting murdered and he was pissed.

Goku was fighting to save the Earth in the Saiyan arc and was rushing back to save his friends and he was legit terrified of the Saiyans power.
The Cell Saga was consistent to his character, RRA sags was the result of Goku being immature and being reactionary, when Android 8 tried to teach him humanity it went in one ear and out the way due to Toriyama not being able to stick to his themes so Goku learns nothing and Android 8 is shown as a hypocrite by reacting blindly in rage and effectively killing Silver in one punch just right after trying to teach Goku humanity.

Despite the Saiyan Saga Goku legit became excited and curious in facing the saiyans, he wanted Nappa to come at him full force to see what he could bring, same with Vegeta amd this is flat out mentioned in inmer dialogue and narration, in fact, this arc bluntly states how selfish Goku is.

When Kuririn was justified in trying to kill Vegeta Goku intervened not to show compassion or mercy like the English dub suggests, but so he could take another swing at Vegeta since letting a strong warrior die would be such a waste. This infuriated Kuririn as he was struggling greatly not to kill Vegeta right there and then crying and showing frusteation that theor allies are dead because of those prick, but Goku knows this is entirely wrong and selfish on his part, but begs for it anyway.

This is Goku's true colors, he's a blood knight that happens to be beneficial for Earth in the long run. Whether this makes Goku a terrible or great character is debatable, but it is who he us and the majority of the fanbase forget this consistent trait of his.
Kuriren's death in the Freeza arc was what prompted Goku to turn into a Super Saiyan and Kuriren was a soft spot for Goku that entire fight "are you talking about Kuriren".
Again, reactionary as Goku was in rage, yet maybe 5 minutes later he was more interested in facing Freeza at his best despite the clock ticking and King Kai urging Goku to hurry up and beat Freeza now.and get off the planet, even after Freeza cut himself in half and begged with Goki screaming out all the people he shamelessly killed without Mercy he still ended up giving the man that murdered Kuririn energy to flee and still doesn't finish this back stabbing bastard off and admits as such to Trunks on Earth when he meets him saying he was careless and was hoping against all odds on Freeza changing.
Gohan in the Cell arc was prompted into SSJ2 by 16's speech about fighting to preserve life.
That speech was 50/50 about protecting life and Gohan letting go to his anger since he was afraid of unleashing it. It actually makes Gohan look insulting as this should be painfully obvious without being verbally told, yet he is by a complete and perfect stranger in the form of a robot which is what sets him off, not the threat of the family, friends, and the world and beyond on the very of edge of annihilation itself. It doesn't help that Goku apologizes to Gohan and to tell him to tell Chi-chi he's sorry for doing whateber he wants and being a self centered selfish person as his "final" farewell.
The Cell saga by comparison is almost notable for how ridiculous Goku's stance in it was even by his standards. And by the Buu arc Goku was acting stupid at the beginning but he was the one begging Vegeta to fuse to end everything once and for all. Goku only overstepped his bounds when he was of the opinion that he could beat Boo on his own and that others could as well.
Its only ridiculous if you blatantly ignore Goku's consistent characterization. Goku only makes the right chouce as a last desparate resort or when he's guilted into it. Instead of thinking of the Earth first Goku lets his pride, ego, and selfishness kick start the events of the Buu Saga when he could instantly and easily avoid it by giving in to Vegeta's midlife crisis request, again BS with Fat Buu, and so on and so on, the entire Buu Saga is Goku bsing and letting the problem get worst and worst with each passing moment.

The same thing occurs in RoF arc, where Vegeta and Goku happily ignore character development in the form of brushing aside Whis suggestion in fighting togethet to eliminate threats before they can start. The same thing happens in the Goku Black arc, for all of this suppose talk about Goku thinking of others he consistently does the opposite and does his own selfish thing because that is who he is, he ain't ever going to change as that would destroy the core aspect and flaw that makes Goku unique.
It was never as heavy handed as it was in this episode, but it's mistake to say that Goku's friends weren't motivating factors in him pushing himself to become stronger and to defeat enemies. I think some people fell in love with the idea of the selfish fighter Goku and sometimes mistakenly over push that aspect.
How can you say that when unlike Toei Toriyama had been very consistent to that trait to the point its Goku biggest weakeness and flaw? You can't say he fight for his friends and such when literally in the previous episode the exact opposite is said and he literally becomes stronger because of it, lol, I mean which it, Toei is literally sending out mixed signals due to their horrible writing.

I have zero issues with Goku fighting for others and more than himself, even empowered by it which I think that would have been phenomenal character development, but that needs to be gradually earned over the course of the series, not something broughtt up literally at the last second. Showing a montage of previous scenes from the series with different context doesn't cut it, that's simply bad, cheap, and contrived writing.

This is my biggest gripe sith DBS, they literally have all the tools and ingredients for a great, not good, but great storytelling, but they refuse to use it and instead constantly drop the ball left and right and that's not cool.
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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:39 pm

8bitdee wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
8bitdee wrote: Like I said, that's your opinion, not a fact. OP is vastly superior to DB when it comes to storytelling, and that's not an opinion.
"Your opinion is subjective but mine is fact."
It's not my opinion, it's the fact of what makes a good story good. I don't think OP is better than DB because I like it better, but because when you analyze it you see that it just is. Just how The Lord of the Rings is a better film than The Hobbit. It's not my opinion, it's fact.

Like I said above, this is off topic so this argument should end.
But what even is "good"?

For example, plenty of folks think that Goku's "My Nakama!" stuff wasn't good, but I thought it was because it showed a great amount of resolve and determination that doesn't crop up often for the character.

One needs to clearly define what's "objective" first before claiming something is objective.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by jeffbr92 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:39 pm

8bitdee wrote: But what's your point? That OP is also bad because it's successful series? That would be a reasonable argument if OP was a bad series, but it's not.
Didn't said it's bad, but It's only that popular in Japan, in other countries it doesn't even come close to the popularity of Naruto, let alone Dragon Ball.
In terms of anime sales? Sure. In terms of manga sales? Not in a million years.
Who really cares about manga sales, when you can have anime, movies and other merchadising making the triple of the money than some comics?
Like I said, that's your opinion, not a fact. OP is vastly superior to DB when it comes to storytelling, and that's not an opinion.
Didn't expect you to be that contradictory. One Piece being vastly superior to DB storywise it is also an opinion, not a fact. I appreciate Star Trek more than Star Wars and I'm not silly to state as a fact that one has better storytelling than the other. It's all subjective.
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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Doctor. » Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:42 pm

8bitdee wrote:it's the fact of what makes a good story good
I'm 100% sure you don't have any idea what you mean by this or what to say if I asked you to elaborate.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by IM21 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:42 pm

8bitdee wrote:
jeffbr92 wrote:
One Piece is inferior to Dragon Ball (which in fact is)
In terms of anime sales? Sure. In terms of manga sales? Not in a million years. In terms of quality? Like I said, that's your opinion, not a fact. OP is vastly superior to DB when it comes to storytelling, and that's not an opinion.

Anyway, this is off topic and I don't understand the point of this argument so I'm ending my participation in it here.
In terms of manga sales? LOL, DB manga is gone for 20+ years, but if you wanna count Super manga then yea, One Piece is killing it. If Toriyama continued the manga it would still be ahead of One Piece. Oh, and as a fan of One piece I gotta say the last 3 years the show sucks just as much as DB Super.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Zephyr » Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:51 pm

Animation was top notch throughout. I liked that it was mostly action from start to finish. Agreed with others that Ultimate Battle is overplayed as all hell by this point.

The pacing for the tournament has been so horribly unnatural that it's difficult to tell what would and wouldn't work in something more properly paced, like everyone being distracted enough for a couple of minutes to not notice Freeza missing in action, as opposed to a couple of hours.

Saw 17 coming, since that magazine like last month let it slip (though it was dismissed as likely a typo, it was intrusive every episode for me nonetheless). Regardless, I'm fine enough with it, him going unnoticed, having no ki and all. Who knows, the Grand Priest could just be not making certain calls to keep Zeno entertained (not calling U11 out on obvious fouls, not letting slip that U7 still had more dudes, etc). Alternatively, the angels were never established to be omniscient.

I'm at least glad Freeza didn't betray everyone. Again. That's been so painfully over faked out already. And it would just cement Freeza as eternally boringly stagnant. Characters are more worth bringing back if they're going to change and develop, and a "Cell arc Vegeta" kind of spot is a pretty cool place for him to land.

I found the power of friendship stuff grating, but I think Goku's verbal dismissal of a "champion of justice" image helped to balance it. Goku considering giving Jiren ki also did.

I think him stopping to think about what to do with Jiren may have contributed to UI backfiring. That, and, fully acquiring a state and mitigating it's drawbacks are two different things. Super Saiyan's drawbacks weren't dealt with until the arc after its full acquisition. And it's fine for it to have drawbacks. An instant win button wouldn't be terribly interesting, hype exposition or not.

For UI itself, I think it's neat that both this and kaioken, techniques of the gods themselves, provide an enormous tradeoff if the user isn't careful.

Still don't know what to think of Jiren. He acts like a different character to me every time he talks. It's not being presented in a clear way so that each step gels coherently with the rest. I do like his aura though, it would seem to serve as a visual indication that his power is similar to that of Ultra Instinct. Between his effortless avoidance of debris at the beginning of the tournament and Belmod speaking of and to him like a mentor, I'd be comfortable assuming he's also using UI (though, were that the case, it's grating and puzzling for it to not be mentioned).

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Doctor. » Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:57 pm

Zephyr wrote:Goku considering giving Jiren ki also did.
I don't think that ever happened. He was clearly about to knock Jiren off before he powered-down.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Zephyr » Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:58 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Zephyr wrote:Goku considering giving Jiren ki also did.
I don't think that ever happened. He was clearly about to knock Jiren off before he powered-down.
Seemed more ambiguous than anything else, but I was definitely leaning toward the former.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Doctor. » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:03 pm

Zephyr wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Zephyr wrote:Goku considering giving Jiren ki also did.
I don't think that ever happened. He was clearly about to knock Jiren off before he powered-down.
Seemed more ambiguous than anything else, but I was definitely leaning toward the former.
Narratively, there wouldn't be much of a reason for UI to have its negative effect right before Goku gave Jiren energy, considering Jiren is back up already by the end of the episode and fighting in the NEP. It makes more sense that UI would start acting up when Goku's about to win and knock Jiren off.

He was definitely struggling as to whether he should knock Jiren off or not, but I don't think he ever got to the point of considering giving him his Ki.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by OverHeaven » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:05 pm

Greator wrote:I feel like saying this episode had bad writing is just used as an excuse to say anything negative from the episode lol.

The episode was very good in every aspect, the best part being few wtf moments like Jiren blasting the audience, Goku losing UI and 17 being alive.
And people have the right to say it, at least they admitted the episode was a spectacle animation and action wise
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
TheRed259 wrote:Jiren is trying to kill Krillin and the others and the Zenos do absolutely nothing...
Well, no outside help is the rule. Nobody ever said anything about killing the potential outside help :P
That's BS even if it was never stated, their universe had a great chance of SURVIVING, Jiren has no right to take that away from them.
Also, what is the point of the "no killing rule" if he can just eliminate them and kill them afterward immediately?

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by GamerSkull » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:11 pm

Enjoyed the episode. Actually very pleasantly surprised.

But 17 being revealed as alive seemed to not have any impact nor was it given more than just a couple of throwaway lines to explain why he's not dead. (although one can argue that the direction of his 'death' was also not impactful nor given enough emphasis in the first place)

Still, good job Toei. Let's just hope 131 doesn't feel too rushed.
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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Michsi » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:15 pm

lord turbo wrote:
Michsi wrote:I don't think it's that. I honestly think that the prospect of everyone dying just pushed him further, it's just relayed to us in a super poetic way because it needs to stand in contradiction to Jiren's world view. Not to mention that Toppo's reaction help drive home another point "Oh, so he does care about others." This, again, is to place him as Jiren's opposite. Jiren is a hero, but he doesn't care about others; Goku isn't a hero, but he does care about the people in his life.
That is a problem Toriyama has with DB in general, he doesn't know how to show without telling. Had this never been verbally said out loud Toppo would think no differently of Goku meaning his actions does not match the words being spoken when they should one and the same, but that requires Toriyama putting in actual talented effort amd that guy's whole MO is less work the better.
.
The problem here is that this isn't Toriyama's responsibility anymore. He only comes up with the major plot lines, but how those ideas are then delivered to the viewers is strictly up to the animation staff. DB has always been straightforward, but if this time they were going for a specific theme, then they should've been a little more careful with the arc's structure.
But in Toppo's and Belmond's case I'd say it makes sense that they'd need it spelled out for them. They don't know Goku, not like his friends do. To them he is just the selfish prick that started this whole mess, and Goku himself doesn't go out of his way to correct that opinion. It takes someone that knows him well to see there is more to him than just the battle-loving man child.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Okara » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:17 pm

It really should’ve been Goku and Frieza or Goku, Vegeta, and Frieza instead of squeezing 17 back in where he clearly doesn’t belong. What a disappointment. Can’t wait until this series is over.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Rhuagh » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:21 pm

Truly spectacular animation, dragged down by atrocious writing. Dragon Ball isn't Naruto, ins't One Piece, and shoudn't try to be.

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