Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

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OverHeaven
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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by OverHeaven » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:23 pm

jeffbr92 wrote:
8bitdee wrote: But what's your point? That OP is also bad because it's successful series? That would be a reasonable argument if OP was a bad series, but it's not.
Didn't said it's bad, but It's only that popular in Japan, in other countries it doesn't even come close to the popularity of Naruto, let alone Dragon Ball.
In terms of anime sales? Sure. In terms of manga sales? Not in a million years.
Who really cares about manga sales, when you can have anime, movies and other merchadising making the triple of the money than some comics?
Like I said, that's your opinion, not a fact. OP is vastly superior to DB when it comes to storytelling, and that's not an opinion.
Didn't expect you to be that contradictory. One Piece being vastly superior to DB storywise it is also an opinion, not a fact. I appreciate Star Trek more than Star Wars and I'm not silly to state as a fact that one has better storytelling than the other. It's all subjective.


It's a fact, mate. One Piece is better than DB = opinion, One Piece is more enjoyable than DB = opinion, but One Piece being vastly superior to DB storywise is a FACT. I'm not even a One Piece fan and I don't watch it at the moment, I kind of hate it post time-skip tbh. But I can admit this one to say the least.
Do you even know how many hours Oda sleep per day because of his work, how many books he has just for future arcs information and to make sure no contradiction is present, and make proper foreshadowing that has meaning
Image
Image

This is old btw.

Not to mention he already knows how One Piece is going to end, unlike Toriyama who keep changing story mid-arc based on what his editors tell him to do. Or just because someone at Toei said Broly is popular, he's like ok let's do it.

Nothing personal against Toriyama, but it always annoy me when people praise someone like him over people who need years to write their complex story, just because DB is more popular. While those may have little attention and many who don't even know about them. kind of sad. Ok this last part is not directed to you, just something I thought of
Last edited by OverHeaven on Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by RedHeat » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:24 pm

Okara wrote:It really should’ve been Goku and Frieza or Goku, Vegeta, and Frieza instead of squeezing 17 back in where he clearly doesn’t belong. What a disappointment. Can’t wait until this series is over.
Unfortunately for you, there's a Super movie coming and probable return in in 2019. Ouchie.
Feels over Reals.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by 8bitdee » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:26 pm

jeffbr92 wrote: It's all subjective.
No, it's not all subjective. You can't listen to an MP3 and a FLAC and say, "well subjectively one sounds better than the other and there's no argument against that." No, there are technical factors about the FLAC version that makes it superior to an MP3. When it comes to a comic book series, it's composed of several factors; setting, story, character development, pacing, artwork, composition, dialogue, etc etc, and quality of all these factors can be measured objectively.
I'm not saying OP surpasses DB in those and all other factors. I just mean technically speaking, just how a FLAC sounds better than an MP3, OP is better in telling a story, and does a better job at progressing its cast and developing them.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by lancerman » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:38 pm

lord turbo wrote:
8bitdee wrote:Fans Pre-130: "Super hasn't given Goku any character development at all. He's still the same dickhead he's always been, it's sooooo annoying!"

Fans post-130: "WTF Toei,show some consistency for fuck's sake. Keep Goku the same he's always been!"
No, no, no...That is not what anyone is suggesting, this is the same meaningless defense people give to valid criticism when they have no counterpoiny such as "its a kids show/it was always this terrible/ flash > substance/etc.
Michsi wrote:I don't think it's that. I honestly think that the prospect of everyone dying just pushed him further, it's just relayed to us in a super poetic way because it needs to stand in contradiction to Jiren's world view. Not to mention that Toppo's reaction help drive home another point "Oh, so he does care about others." This, again, is to place him as Jiren's opposite. Jiren is a hero, but he doesn't care about others; Goku isn't a hero, but he does care about the people in his life.
That is a problem Toriyama has with DB in general, he doesn't know how to show without telling. Had this never been verbally said out loud Toppo would think no differently of Goku meaning his actions does not match the words being spoken when they should one and the same, but that requires Toriyama putting in actual talented effort amd that guy's whole MO is less work the better.
lancerman wrote:a lot of people would argue that the Cell arc was the out of character anomaly arc.

Goku only stormed the Red Ribbon Army base for his friend Upa so he could get all the Dragon Balls and ressurect Bora.

Goku's entire motivation in the King Piccolo arc was that Kuriren was killed and his friends were getting murdered and he was pissed.

Goku was fighting to save the Earth in the Saiyan arc and was rushing back to save his friends and he was legit terrified of the Saiyans power.
The Cell Saga was consistent to his character, RRA sags was the result of Goku being immature and being reactionary, when Android 8 tried to teach him humanity it went in one ear and out the way due to Toriyama not being able to stick to his themes so Goku learns nothing and Android 8 is shown as a hypocrite by reacting blindly in rage and effectively killing Silver in one punch just right after trying to teach Goku humanity.

Despite the Saiyan Saga Goku legit became excited and curious in facing the saiyans, he wanted Nappa to come at him full force to see what he could bring, same with Vegeta amd this is flat out mentioned in inmer dialogue and narration, in fact, this arc bluntly states how selfish Goku is.

When Kuririn was justified in trying to kill Vegeta Goku intervened not to show compassion or mercy like the English dub suggests, but so he could take another swing at Vegeta since letting a strong warrior die would be such a waste. This infuriated Kuririn as he was struggling greatly not to kill Vegeta right there and then crying and showing frusteation that theor allies are dead because of those prick, but Goku knows this is entirely wrong and selfish on his part, but begs for it anyway.

This is Goku's true colors, he's a blood knight that happens to be beneficial for Earth in the long run. Whether this makes Goku a terrible or great character is debatable, but it is who he us and the majority of the fanbase forget this consistent trait of his.
Kuriren's death in the Freeza arc was what prompted Goku to turn into a Super Saiyan and Kuriren was a soft spot for Goku that entire fight "are you talking about Kuriren".
Again, reactionary as Goku was in rage, yet maybe 5 minutes later he was more interested in facing Freeza at his best despite the clock ticking and King Kai urging Goku to hurry up and beat Freeza now.and get off the planet, even after Freeza cut himself in half and begged with Goki screaming out all the people he shamelessly killed without Mercy he still ended up giving the man that murdered Kuririn energy to flee and still doesn't finish this back stabbing bastard off and admits as such to Trunks on Earth when he meets him saying he was careless and was hoping against all odds on Freeza changing.
Gohan in the Cell arc was prompted into SSJ2 by 16's speech about fighting to preserve life.
That speech was 50/50 about protecting life and Gohan letting go to his anger since he was afraid of unleashing it. It actually makes Gohan look insulting as this should be painfully obvious without being verbally told, yet he is by a complete and perfect stranger in the form of a robot which is what sets him off, not the threat of the family, friends, and the world and beyond on the very of edge of annihilation itself. It doesn't help that Goku apologizes to Gohan and to tell him to tell Chi-chi he's sorry for doing whateber he wants and being a self centered selfish person as his "final" farewell.
The Cell saga by comparison is almost notable for how ridiculous Goku's stance in it was even by his standards. And by the Buu arc Goku was acting stupid at the beginning but he was the one begging Vegeta to fuse to end everything once and for all. Goku only overstepped his bounds when he was of the opinion that he could beat Boo on his own and that others could as well.
Its only ridiculous if you blatantly ignore Goku's consistent characterization. Goku only makes the right chouce as a last desparate resort or when he's guilted into it. Instead of thinking of the Earth first Goku lets his pride, ego, and selfishness kick start the events of the Buu Saga when he could instantly and easily avoid it by giving in to Vegeta's midlife crisis request, again BS with Fat Buu, and so on and so on, the entire Buu Saga is Goku bsing and letting the problem get worst and worst with each passing moment.

The same thing occurs in RoF arc, where Vegeta and Goku happily ignore character development in the form of brushing aside Whis suggestion in fighting togethet to eliminate threats before they can start. The same thing happens in the Goku Black arc, for all of this suppose talk about Goku thinking of others he consistently does the opposite and does his own selfish thing because that is who he is, he ain't ever going to change as that would destroy the core aspect and flaw that makes Goku unique.
It was never as heavy handed as it was in this episode, but it's mistake to say that Goku's friends weren't motivating factors in him pushing himself to become stronger and to defeat enemies. I think some people fell in love with the idea of the selfish fighter Goku and sometimes mistakenly over push that aspect.
How can you say that when unlike Toei Toriyama had been very consistent to that trait to the point its Goku biggest weakeness and flaw? You can't say he fight for his friends and such when literally in the previous episode the exact opposite is said and he literally becomes stronger because of it, lol, I mean which it, Toei is literally sending out mixed signals due to their horrible writing.

I have zero issues with Goku fighting for others and more than himself, even empowered by it which I think that would have been phenomenal character development, but that needs to be gradually earned over the course of the series, not something broughtt up literally at the last second. Showing a montage of previous scenes from the series with different context doesn't cut it, that's simply bad, cheap, and contrived writing.

This is my biggest gripe sith DBS, they literally have all the tools and ingredients for a great, not good, but great storytelling, but they refuse to use it and instead constantly drop the ball left and right and that's not cool.
You said a lot of things but Goku using his friends as motivation WAS reactionary. It was reactionary to get him back to Omen and it was reactionary to get him a second wind here. He still wanted to fight Jiren at his best, he never said he didn't.

And no the Cell arc is very out of character. People the make the mistake of going far to the extreme with Goku's characterization to justify the Cell arc. Goku isn't some cookie cutter hero, but he's not some freak who doesn't care about people and use protecting or helping them as motivation. He's used that as motivation many times throughout his entire life as early as the Red Ribbon Army arm, to King Piccolo, to the Saiyans, to Freeza.

You're overselling one aspect to push a narrative that Goku can only ever act in a certain way, which clearly hasn't been true throughout the series.

In the Saiyan Arc, Goku fought to protect Earth and his friends and family. He was outright terrified of the Saiyans at different points and was racing against the clock to save his friends. YES after Vegeta no longer poses a threat, Goku said he wanted him alive to fight him again. Key was, Vegeta was no longer a threat. Goku didn't need to protect anyone from Vegeta anymore. Vegeta could no longer turn into an Oozaru, which was the deciding factor in the battle anyways and Vegeta had no reason to return to Earth without the Dragon Balls. It's the same as the Piccolo situation. They were already bested and no longer threats and Goku was confident he'd beat them if they fought them. If it came right down to it, Goku would have killed Vegeta if it meant protecting the Earth. Goku thought the spirit bomb would kill Vegeta, that was his attack and his idea. The situation changed from "Vegeta is a threat" to "Vegeta isn't a threat". Goku was still fighting and was still prepared to kill Vegeta to protect the Earth. When the battle was done, the Earth was saved and killing didn't matter. Goku has consistently shown that if there are no longer high stakes and the battle is done, he'll let the enemy go.

I wasn't talking about the Muscle Tower arc. I was talking about the end of the RRA arc. Goku only went after the Dragon Balls to get the 4 Star ball. Goku only gathered them all and went ham on the RRA because he wanted to help his friend Upa ressurect his father. That entire last part of the arc was Goku being motivated by his new friend.

You completely glossed over the King Piccolo arc where Goku specifically was fighting to save the world and as a result of his best friend being killed and his other friends being killed. There was nothing about that arc where Goku had any interest at all in fighting Piccolo just for the sake of it.


In the Freeza arc, yes Goku's transformation was reactionary (so was this, Goku used a reactionary motivation to spurn a second wind). He still reached in and got stronger because his best friend died and his other friend and his son were having their lives threatened. That was the motivation. Did Goku let Freeza reach 100%, yeah, by that point he was quite convinced that he could either beat Freeza or they'd both die on Namek so it didn't matter. And no, his friends were still a motivation throughout that battle. Goku freaked out at Freeza even mentioning saying a bad thing about Kuriren. It's a massive reach to suggest Goku didn't have that in mind fighting Freeza.

Again you're doing this thing a lot of people do where they are infatuated with this idea of Goku as mindless fight zombie who only cares about fighting and can't be motivated by protecting people he cares about, when that's NEVER been the case. You're pushing it too far in one direction.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Jackalope89 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:51 pm

Its like people forget why Goku even turned Super Saiyan in the first place. Because Freeza murdered Krillin and tried to kill Gohan and Piccolo as well. So Goku,infuriated beyond anything he had been since, probably ever, reached deep despite going Kaio-ken times 20, the spirit bomb, and still getting his butt handed to him, turned Super Saiyan and gained a new form of power that allowed him to overwhelm Freeza.

And let's not forget Goku's reaction to finding out what Zamasu did to Chichi and Goten.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMWPCqIci8o&t=10s

Goku has had his selfish moments, no doubt, but he obviously does care for his friends and family. And when someone harms them or kills/attempts to kill them, he gets angry.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Nickolaidas » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:53 pm

Nicely written, Lancerman.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by OverHeaven » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:58 pm

Did anyone talk about the fact that Beerus never compared MUI to his own strength in this episode? There wasn't even "might" be stronger.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Zephyr » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:58 pm

OverHeaven wrote:It's a fact, mate. One Piece is better than DB = opinion, One Piece is more enjoyable than DB = opinion, but One Piece being vastly superior to DB storywise is a FACT. I'm not even a One Piece fan and I don't watch it at the moment, I kind of hate it post time-skip tbh. But I can admit this one to say the least.
Do you even know how many hours Oda sleep per day because of his work, how many books he has just for future arcs information and to make sure no contradiction is present, and make proper foreshadowing that has meaning
Superiority and inferiority are relative, and thus subjective, ideas. Asserting the superiority of anything is inherently subjective.

Oda clearly and objectively takes his story more seriously and plans ahead more, but that's neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition for a good story. Meaning, you can plan all you want and still tell a worse story than someone who planned much less.

Which isn't even to take a side in the debate over who/what is better, but rather simply to point out that your observations aren't enough to entail your conclusion.

I could put a lot of careful thought and planning into my recipe and the cooking method, but my dish could still be utterly inferior to that of a master chef just throwing things together as he goes. We don't live in Batman's world, where prep time is magically sufficient to trump skill as some law of physics.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Pannaliciour » Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:02 pm


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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by TheShadowEmperor8055 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:14 pm

Upon giving it a second watch, even if I believe the writing is not so good, I feel it did live up to the phrases "The Greatest Showdown of All Time" and "The Ultimate Survival Battle" in terms of art and animation. Definitely something worth rewatching and talking about over and over.

Even if I did have gripes about how Jiren landed hits on UI Goku, he had very little clean hits in comparison to the vast array of clean hits Goku landed on him.
Pannaliciour wrote:https://imgur.com/a/cYtok
OMG, he DID do that upon closer review! But it happened SO FAST.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by prince212 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:16 pm

Pannaliciour wrote:https://imgur.com/a/cYtok
That’s awesome , I didn’t notice ...
Later I’ll rewatch the chapter
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by sintzu » Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:38 pm

Rhuagh wrote:Dragon Ball isn't Naruto, ins't One Piece, and shoudn't try to be.
No, but using some elements from them can improve things like better world building and character usage.
Son Vegito wrote:Okay at this point I'm happy the series will be continuing as movies from now on so that they can follow Toriyama's outline more closely.
It's just the next story that'll be a movie, Toriyama even said the anime was just ending for now, not for good.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Brettjr25 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:48 pm

So given that there was like 1 minute left in the tournament, does that mean UI form when at full power only last about 15 seconds? Seems like its nothing more than another kaioken.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by foxfang4 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:51 pm

Are people complaining that Goku's "carrying hopes of everyone" is uncharacteristic of Goku? I'm a bit torn on this part of the episode. The rest of it I loved.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by sintzu » Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:55 pm

Brettjr25 wrote:So given that there was like 1 minute left in the tournament, does that mean UI form when at full power only last about 15 seconds? Seems like its nothing more than another kaioken.
It seems like time works differently in the world of void so it's a lot more than a minute.
foxfang4 wrote:Are people complaining that Goku's "carrying hopes of everyone" is uncharacteristic of Goku? I'm a bit torn on this part of the episode. The rest of it I loved.
I personally don't have a problem with it as Goku has always cared about his loved ones so it's nothing new.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by TheShadowEmperor8055 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:56 pm

Miracles wrote:
Doctor. wrote:...Thirdly, Goku is being hit and damaged in Ultra Instinct... how, exactly? Theoretically, just because your body reacts on its own doesn't mean it has time to react, I get that. That's a solid enough excuse. Shame the series didn't bother to provide it. UI was always portrayed as this unstoppable force before this point, and its only downsides were the time limit and the need to focus to attack (which are now obsolete), but here it is, getting hit... just because...
TheShadowEmperor8055 wrote:Though Super is still... "meh" from a narrative standpoint. You simply need sheer strength and speed to temporarily overcome an ability that's supposed to "avoid any danger no matter how severe". Seriously, what happened to that concept regarding UI? Everytime Goku got hit in UI I was like "ughhh...." (but it would have been too one-sided if Goku dodged everything, which I get)...
Did you two miss in the special [109-110] that UI still needed a power boost to even "match" Jiren; Confirmed by Whis and Tien?
Nope. But yeah, just like it always has been in Dragon Ball, raw power and speed can overcome anything (such as an opponent using Hakai or being able to dodge instinctively). :lol:

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by OverHeaven » Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:57 pm

Brettjr25 wrote:So given that there was like 1 minute left in the tournament, does that mean UI form when at full power only last about 15 seconds? Seems like its nothing more than another kaioken.
Apparently, the great toll of the limit-breaking power of gods only last even loss, cuz Goku is already fine and fighting next episode.
Not to mention Vegeta getting unconscious by Jiren and looking almost dead with no pupils also lasted few seconds lol. and many other examples.
Probably it's better to not think about it, really. I doubt they even bother to think of logic, time-wise when writing these episodes

Sometimes I wonder why the hell did they even choose to make the tournament 48 minutes? What was the fucking point of that? Literally, nothing would've been different or affect the story wise had they tripled the time at the very least. Even Vegeta's speech about surpassing their power in a limited time would still be valid, except make more sense.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by precita » Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:07 pm

The amount of people saying the writing is atrocious because Goku cares for his friends is mind blowing to me, do we all watch the same series? Goku can't fight for his friends?

What series have you guys been following for the last 20 years? Goku has always fought to protect his friends and gotten angry when they were hurt/killed.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by JazzMazz » Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:08 pm

lord turbo wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:Why is no one treating Goku's obvious change of motivation, which is in stark contrast to 122, as a progression or development of his mentality during this arc? Since its pretty obvious that's what they were going for.
Terrible writing, its the same reason something established in a previous episode is immediately ignored in the following episode. The writing is atrocious and all over the place, very little to no internal consistency within the show what so ever.
True, however, this episodes idea of Goku not simply fighting for himself has been pretty consistent with a lot of other episodes in this final showdown, this is kind of spiritual continuation of episodes like 123 and 128.
I will say that 129 did kind of go awry from this idea, but I think that could be argued as being the focus of battle that allowed Goku to attain UI, while his family and trust shiz are what allows him to constantly get up after being beaten down.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Deathbeam » Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:10 pm

precita wrote:The amount of people saying the writing is atrocious because Goku cares for his friends is mind blowing to me, do we all watch the same series? Goku can't fight for his friends?

What series have you guys been following for the last 20 years? Goku has always fought to protect his friends and gotten angry when they were hurt/killed.
yep.
But to me, more simply Goku followed his nature and fought to ne the strongest from the beginning.
But then, when he was about to lose, he felt the support of his friends, who would also be erased if he lost. This gave him the final boost in power and motivation. Thus, supporting and not contrasting his will to be the strongest.

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