Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Doctor. » Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:42 pm

Master Xar wrote:...So? What’s the problem in Goku announcing it? They weren’t even being melodramatic about it, it’s two conflicting ideals being brought out in the open, melodramatic would be Goku giving a whole minute speech, Jiren breaking down to crying like a baby or talking about killing everyone then himself or some crap, but instead he is reasonably upset that he is losing again due to being too weak to win over somebody who has all the power he has, has the happiness that he doesn’t, and has people cheering him on because they actually like him for being him unlike Jiren who is cheered on for his power, not himself. He is a traumatized man and shows signs of PTSD. You don’t call a vietnam veteran having flashbacks and having a breakdown being “melodramatic”

Goku never gave a “cheesy speech” he said one line, that he is not a hero and he will not forgive those that bring harm to his friends, he also announced earlier that he would show Jiren than having allies and trust is a good thing. The power-ups were negligible and adrenaline fueled at best as well
There's no problem with Goku announcing it if that's all that happened - if Goku's "I won't forgive you if you hurt my friends" line was all that was there. But unfortunately it wasn't, there's two extra things that happened as well. You had an entire segment of the episode dedicated to a flashback of Goku's past enemies and a speech by Piccolo/Roshi/Kuririn about how Goku's fighting with everyone's help, and Goku himself also verbalizes this through a very hammy speech about the others counting on him culminating in a very cheesy line ("This is our power!"); and the other thing that happened was that he got an arbitrary, nonsensical power boost from it, like something you'd see in lesser Shounen. Was it negligible? No, not really. He was losing and then he was winning. He turned the tables, so it wasn't negligible (just like Jiren's arbitrary power-up did with him).

Taken in isolation, these things aren't bad by themselves. It's when they're all a part of the same sequence that it's grating. And you're all seemingly ignoring context and acting like none of these happened at the same time. It's like looking at a cake recipe and saying there's no problem, but then tasting it and seeing the ingredients just don't mix.

And you're example of what would constitute as melodramatic actually isn't quite off the mark. Goku and his friends give a whole minute speech about the value of friendship, accompanied by flashbacks, and Jiren breaks down screaming and thinking about his tragic backstory and attempts to murder Goku's friends. This is indeed melodramatic - at the very least, when compared to most, if not all, of the other fights in the series.

I said it before to exemplify how much of a joke this was, you can replace the names with characters from another series and the fight, due to how generic the conflict was, reads like literally any other Shounen:

[spoiler]Usopp: It's not over yet, is it? No matter what, no matter the peril, you've always sprung back! You'll definitely be able to defeat Lucci! I believe in you! So get up, Luffy!
Lucci: Impossible! You shouldn't have any more stamina!
Luffy: Lucci, it ain't over yet!
Lucci: How? How can you stand after being beaten so many times, Monkey D. Luffy?!
Luffy: Robin and Sogeking, and everyone else are trustin' me. I swear on that faith I can never back down now![/spoiler]

Alternatively,

[spoiler]Sakura: Naruto isn't fighting only for himself. It's because he's bearing our hopes too.
Kakashi: Sakura's right. Naruto has people who help raise each other up. Not only do we all treasure each other greatly, but our existence also gives Naruto strength. I'm sure he doesn't believe, even for a moment, that he came this far by himself.
Gaara: It's all because of Naruto that we're here right now. When we first met, some of us fought or were enemies, but here we all are, trusting Naruto.
[...]
Sasuke: Who cares about friendship? Who cares about trust? To accept that would be to deny everything that I've ever been. I won't believe in such power. Such a thing is easily erased![/spoiler]

The drama has no identity of its own. In comparison to Majin Vegeta vs Goku, an example I used previously, which was also a inner conflict that was unusually verbalized for DB, you really can't mistake the dialogue for anything other than Dragon Ball.
Master Xar wrote:Cheesy/cliché =/= objectively bad.
Art is almost always never "objectively" anything; I didn't claim it was. I'm giving my thoughts as to how it was extremely poorly executed. I don't think I should preface my posts with "In my opinion," just like the people posting "OMG BEST EPISODE EVER" don't preface theirs.
Last edited by Doctor. on Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Master Xar » Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:42 pm

The Patrolman wrote:While I know for a fact that Goku has cared about his loved one more than a fight, the way this episode portrays this is very weak and generic. Like Doctor said this felt like Naruto or Fairy Tail. This is what I was talking about Super it tries to be a modern shounen when it just doesn't work. The loved ones and Power of Friendship as some sort of secret power does not work in a series like Dragon Ball.
...that’s like 90% of the power-ups in the show “rage” is more negligible at best because it still shows you care about your loved ones in the end, Fairy Tail and Naruto give you a long ass speech about it, Goku said a couple reasonable lines as a man who has friends and family and is willing to protect them, it’s more than the common “YOU MADE ME MAD” or “NOW I'm PISSED” one liner we’re used to, Dragonball Super never tried to be “modern” if anything it’s been sticking to it’s former strengths.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Vegeta_Sama » Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:44 pm

OverHeaven wrote:
Vegeta_Sama wrote:
OverHeaven wrote:
1-Can you calm the fuck down? For fuck's sake, I wasn't bitching and it didn't even bother me, I was just saying what I think is going on. Jeez. Nowhere in my post, it shows that I'm pissed off at it, the last part was just talking about the 48 minutes in general. I already said how much I enjoyed this episode, and it's my favorite DBSuper episode of all time. but apparently, we are not even allowed to express our few "not so positive" thoughts now.

2-What you're saying makes no sense at all. Base form or not, doing his best or whatever, he can move freely, spin and fly around as he like. The after effects of MUI are clearly gone, except he may not be able to transform or something. Similar to Vegeta in 128.
1)No, I won't calm down. Bite me.
2)Yes, it does make sense. What you wrote on the other hand... You're talking like you experienced Ultra Instinct yourself :lol: How do you know that the toll of UI makes you unable to spin, fly and kick? Did you unlock it? Lol, I don't think so.
1-ok

2-Please tell me you are not trolling? By that childlish logic of yours, with all respect but let's be honest, there is no point in discussing anything regarding shonen cartoons as we haven't experienced anything ourselves. I can also use your own logic against you, but nah.

I said that because Goku clearly was completely unable to move at the end of this episode, take a look at his shaking arm for a bonus.
Even 17 and Frieza talked as though Goku should be complete useless right now (in that condition = MUI aftereffect)
1) good
2) i think you meant "Please tell me you'RE trolling". The answer is Yes. Somewhat. I still think that it's no big deal, but the exaggerated way in which I presented my point was clearly just for trolling purposes. "No, I won't calm down. Bite me." was a good example of that :lol: .
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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by TheShadowEmperor8055 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:46 pm

Doctor. wrote: I said it before to exemplify how much of a joke this was, you can replace the names with characters from another series and the fight, due to how generic the conflict was, reads like literally any other Shounen:

[spoiler]Usopp: It's not over yet, is it? No matter what, no matter the peril, you've always sprung back! You'll definitely be able to defeat Lucci! I believe in you! So get up, Luffy!
Lucci: Impossible! You shouldn't have any more stamina!
Luffy: Lucci, it ain't over yet!
Lucci: How? How can you stand after being beaten so many times, Monkey D. Luffy?!
Luffy: Robin and Sogeking, and everyone else are trustin' me. I swear on that faith I can never back down now![/spoiler]

Alternatively,

[spoiler]Sakura: Naruto isn't fighting only for himself. It's because he's bearing our hopes too.
Kakashi: Sakura's right. Naruto has people who help raise each other up. Not only do we all treasure each other greatly, but our existence also gives Naruto strength. I'm sure he doesn't believe, even for a moment, that he came this far by himself.
Gaara: It's all because of Naruto that we're here right now. When we first met, some of us fought or were enemies, but here we all are, trusting Naruto.
[...]
Sasuke: Who cares about friendship? Who cares about trust? To accept that would be to deny everything that I've ever been. I won't believe in such power. Such a thing is easily erased![/spoiler]
LMAO, it's actually hilarious how accurate this is. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Though OP's writing is superior to that of Naruto and DB in my opinion by a margin.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by majinwarman » Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:48 pm

After looking at what people has said about the emotional speeches in this episode, there is a fair point about it being too melodramatic. But, I enjoyed the speech and really tried to understand what the episode was trying to tell us. They wanted to show the differences between Goku and Jiren and how their pasts affected them. But, I can understand why people dislikes this beat in the episode.
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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by foxfang4 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:52 pm

From what I'm reading, the main criticism on this episode seems to be based around the "friendship revival" moment. From what I gather, it annoyed people that the tables were turned through such a cheap narrative tool, while also being uncharacteristic of Goku at this point of the battle.

My question is: What should Goku's motivation have been for getting up at this point?

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Doctor. » Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:00 pm

foxfang4 wrote:From what I'm reading, the main criticism on this episode seems to be based around the "friendship revival" moment. From what I gather, it annoyed people that the tables were turned through such a cheap narrative tool, while also being uncharacteristic of Goku at this point of the battle.

My question is: What should Goku's motivation have been for getting up at this point?
Why do you assume Goku had to turn the tables (he wouldn't need to if Jiren didn't also get an arbitrary power-up beforehand)? Why can't he just be motivated and still be weaker and get his ass kicked? That's, more often than not, what happened in the original series; look at the KKx20 Kamehameha in the anime, look at Majin Vegeta's sacrifice, look at Vegeta's attack on Cell after Trunks' death, look at Goku attacking Tao after Bora's death. With the exception of Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2, in which rage and emotion triggered an entirely new transformation, and not an arbitrary power-up in the same transformation, not to mention the execution was much better and the melodrama was almost nonexistent or at least more nuanced, that's how the original series did things.
Last edited by Doctor. on Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Master Xar » Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:00 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Master Xar wrote:...So? What’s the problem in Goku announcing it? They weren’t even being melodramatic about it, it’s two conflicting ideals being brought out in the open, melodramatic would be Goku giving a whole minute speech, Jiren breaking down to crying like a baby or talking about killing everyone then himself or some crap, but instead he is reasonably upset that he is losing again due to being too weak to win over somebody who has all the power he has, has the happiness that he doesn’t, and has people cheering him on because they actually like him for being him unlike Jiren who is cheered on for his power, not himself. He is a traumatized man and shows signs of PTSD. You don’t call a vietnam veteran having flashbacks and having a breakdown being “melodramatic”

Goku never gave a “cheesy speech” he said one line, that he is not a hero and he will not forgive those that bring harm to his friends, he also announced earlier that he would show Jiren than having allies and trust is a good thing. The power-ups were negligible and adrenaline fueled at best as well
There's no problem with Goku announcing it if that's all that happened - if Goku's "I won't forgive you if you hurt my friends" line was all that was there. But unfortunately it wasn't there's two extra things that happened as well. You had an entire segment of the episode dedicated to a flashback of Goku's past enemies and a speech by Piccolo/Roshi/Kuririn about how Goku's fighting with everyone's help, and Goku himself also verbalizes this through a very hammy speech about the others counting on him culminating in a very cheesy line ("This is our power!"); and the other thing that happened was that he got an arbitrary, nonsensical power boost from it, like something you'd see in lesser Shounen. Was it negligible? No, not really. He was losing and then he was winning. He turned the tables, so it wasn't negligible (just like Jiren's arbitrary power-up did with him).

Taken in isolation, these things aren't bad by themselves. It's when they're all a part of the same sequence that it's grating. And you're all seemingly ignoring context and acting like none of these happened at the same time. It's like looking at a cake recipe and saying there's no problem, but then tasting it and seeing the ingredients just don't mix.

And you're example of what would constitute as melodramatic actually isn't quite off the mark. Goku and his friends give a whole minute speech about the value of friendship, accompanied by flashbacks, and Jiren breaks down screaming and thinking about his tragic backstory and attempts to murder Goku's friends. This is indeed melodramatic - at the very least, when compared to most, if not all, of the other fights in the series.

I said it before to exemplify how much of a joke this was, you can replace the names with characters from another series and the fight, due to how generic the conflict was, reads like literally any other Shounen:

[spoiler]Usopp: It's not over yet, is it? No matter what, no matter the peril, you've always sprung back! You'll definitely be able to defeat Lucci! I believe in you! So get up, Luffy!
Lucci: Impossible! You shouldn't have any more stamina!
Luffy: Lucci, it ain't over yet!
Lucci: How? How can you stand after being beaten so many times, Monkey D. Luffy?!
Luffy: Robin and Sogeking, and everyone else are trustin' me. I swear on that faith I can never back down now![/spoiler]

Alternatively,

[spoiler]Sakura: Naruto isn't fighting only for himself. It's because he's bearing our hopes too.
Kakashi: Sakura's right. Naruto has people who help raise each other up. Not only do we all treasure each other greatly, but our existence also gives Naruto strength. I'm sure he doesn't believe, even for a moment, that he came this far by himself.
Gaara: It's all because of Naruto that we're here right now. When we first met, some of us fought or were enemies, but here we all are, trusting Naruto.
[...]
Sasuke: Who cares about friendship? Who cares about trust? To accept that would be to deny everything that I've ever been. I won't believe in such power. Such a thing is easily erased![/spoiler]
Master Xar wrote:Cheesy/cliché =/= objectively bad.
Art is almost always never "objectively" anything; I didn't claim it was. I'm giving my thoughts as to how it was extremely poorly executed. I don't think I should preface my posts with "In my opinion," just like the people posting "OMG BEST EPISODE EVER" don't preface theirs.
... and it has, had Goku not used the Spirit Bomb (from his friends...) he likely would have never triggered UI in the first place, the speech his friends are speaking of him still isn’t Goku himself giving the speech as opposed to Fairy Tail or Naruto where their mains give the whole speech, perspective is everything, they gave their stories about how Goku was once a rival and enemy and after meeting them had changed them, not Goku himself blindly saying friends are everything.

Screaming can be forgiven on that, it’s not something out of the ordinary for a breakdown. Him shooting at the stands is arguable yes, but you are implying the whole episode was filled with Melodrama.

Your example is faulted [spoiler]Lucci is undoubtedly evil as opposed to Jiren who is a misguided broken man[/spoiler] perspective and character opposition makes a story all the more better, in a sense Jiren is Goku had he taken a wrong step, a foil to him, that’s what can make something “generic” mean more, that’s what makes stories like Persona so great despite the “generic” lesson in bonds, in Persona 5 [spoiler]Akechi’s[/spoiler]background and perspective makes him different to Sasuke despite the words and dialogue that are said and that makes him a VASTLY different character

And I’m giving my perspective and opinion on it, and I respectfully disagree, you can’t throw out a character under a generic light just because of dialogue.
Last edited by Master Xar on Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:06 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by The Patrolman » Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:02 pm

Asura wrote:
The Patrolman wrote:The loved ones and Power of Friendship as some sort of secret power does not work in a series like Dragon Ball.
Can you actually explain why not?
Funny, I don't remember anyone bitching about this when Goku got a power boost after hearing what happened to Chi-Chi and Goten.
Well to be fair Black and Zamasu aren't that strong. Black is a masochist and purposely gets himself hurt just to get stronger. Zamasu is just immortal. Immortal =/= super powerful. Trunks was able to give Zamasu those hands as a SSJ2.
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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by OverHeaven » Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:02 pm

Asura wrote:Funny, I don't remember anyone bitching about this when Goku got a power boost after hearing what happened to Chi-Chi and Goten.
Okay, I didn't bitch about either of those myself. But I can think of potential reasons why some people are bitching about this one and not the other scenes are for the following reasons:

1-Although Goku got a power boost, it was kind of temporary and didn't affect the overall result of the fight immediately. Now if Goku had completely defeated Zamasu and Goku Black at that point, I'm sure people would've been as mad as they are now. Same for SS and SS2. The fight took several episodes after the transformation, they didn't defeat the opponent as soon as they got the power boost.

On the other hand, Spirit Sword SS Trunks was heavely criticized as it affect the final battles results.


2-Although they got a similar power boost, it happened kind of silently. There weren't many dialogues regarding the topic of friendship itself to the point it could became annoying. And it wasn't heavely focused on plot wise as this one.


I understand if you disagree with these reasons, but this is what I can think of anyway.
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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by The Patrolman » Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:03 pm

Master Xar wrote:
The Patrolman wrote:While I know for a fact that Goku has cared about his loved one more than a fight, the way this episode portrays this is very weak and generic. Like Doctor said this felt like Naruto or Fairy Tail. This is what I was talking about Super it tries to be a modern shounen when it just doesn't work. The loved ones and Power of Friendship as some sort of secret power does not work in a series like Dragon Ball.
...that’s like 90% of the power-ups in the show “rage” is more negligible at best because it still shows you care about your loved ones in the end, Fairy Tail and Naruto give you a long ass speech about it, Goku said a couple reasonable lines as a man who has friends and family and is willing to protect them, it’s more than the common “YOU MADE ME MAD” or “NOW I'm PISSED” one liner we’re used to, Dragonball Super never tried to be “modern” if anything it’s been sticking to it’s former strengths.
I think you forgot what I just said. "While I know for a fact that Goku has cared about his loved one more than a fight, the way this episode portrays this is very weak and generic."
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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by fadeddreams5 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:04 pm

Doctor. wrote:
I said it before to exemplify how much of a joke this was, you can replace the names with characters from another series and the fight, due to how generic the conflict was, reads like literally any other Shounen:

[spoiler]Usopp: It's not over yet, is it? No matter what, no matter the peril, you've always sprung back! You'll definitely be able to defeat Lucci! I believe in you! So get up, Luffy!
Lucci: Impossible! You shouldn't have any more stamina!
Luffy: Lucci, it ain't over yet!
Lucci: How? How can you stand after being beaten so many times, Monkey D. Luffy?!
Luffy: Robin and Sogeking, and everyone else are trustin' me. I swear on that faith I can never back down now![/spoiler]

Alternatively,

[spoiler]Sakura: Naruto isn't fighting only for himself. It's because he's bearing our hopes too.
Kakashi: Sakura's right. Naruto has people who help raise each other up. Not only do we all treasure each other greatly, but our existence also gives Naruto strength. I'm sure he doesn't believe, even for a moment, that he came this far by himself.
Gaara: It's all because of Naruto that we're here right now. When we first met, some of us fought or were enemies, but here we all are, trusting Naruto.
[...]
Sasuke: Who cares about friendship? Who cares about trust? To accept that would be to deny everything that I've ever been. I won't believe in such power. Such a thing is easily erased![/spoiler]
That made me genuinely laugh. lol.

I agree that the writing was terrible, but saying or typing this feels like beating a dead horse at this point. The writing in all of Super has been godawful. I can think of dozens of ways these arcs--especially the last two--could have been infinitely better.

Goku fighting for his friends, and Jiren becoming stronger because of his inner resolve, stemming from past trauma, isn't bad at all. But the way it was all crammed into a 26- minute episode made it come off as hammy and contrived. The flashbacks added unnecessary melodrama. In DBZ, these power-ups were so organic, given the context and progression of the events leading to them, whereas in Super, someone can say something that pisses someone off and, in a matter of seconds, a random transformation occurs (e.g. Cabba, Trunks, and Jiren).

With that said, I loved the episode because I have long since shut down my brain while watching this show. I couldn't bare a single episode of previous arcs because their animation were as terrible as their writing, but this episode here had a little of everything I like to see, from a serious Goku, to an amazing fight, to great music to go along with it. The series is a visual medium, and as long as there is some form of story and consistency, along with all of this, I'll enjoy it. As a long time fan, it feels like a guilty pleasure because I know it could be much better.
Last edited by fadeddreams5 on Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Bebi Hatchiyack » Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:05 pm

I saw everyone bitch about the power of friendship or anything else here, but it's not so new in anime history

Because before Fairy there was Saint Seiya the OG Anime of power of Friendship, and more in the manga it's the power of brothership. :wave:

And Saint Seiya is the anime Rival of Dragon Ball since 1986. :D
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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Master Xar » Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:11 pm

And yes, I still don’t see how Goku’s power-ups this episode were anything huge, even after Jiren’s power-up they were pretty evenly matched, the first one was a speed boost because he had something to protect, and the second one was completely reasonable considering it was him getting angry his friends nearly died.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Doctor. » Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:13 pm

Master Xar wrote:Your example is faulted [spoiler]Lucci is undoubtedly evil as opposed to Jiren who is a misguided broken man[/spoiler] perspective and character opposition makes a story all the more better, in a sense Jiren is Goku had he taken a wrong step, a foil to him, that’s what can make something “generic” mean more, that’s what makes stories like Persona so great despite the “generic” lesson in bonds, in Persona 5 [spoiler]Akechi’s[/spoiler]background and perspective makes him different to Sasuke despite the words and dialogue that are said and that makes him a VASTLY different character
It doesn't matter as to whether or not Jiren is evil. My point is that the fight, the conflict, the drama - all of it has no identity of their own. it all meshes into the same bag of generic Shounen tropes and lines that can apply to any situation. Any concept can be a good one with a proper execution, I'm not gonna say that the idea was doomed from the get-go because it wasn't. i'm saying they did nothing interesting with it; all they did was write something that could be applied to any other series as I proved above. You look at the script of any other major DB conflict, and you absolutely cannot mistake it for any other show. It has its own identity. It's original. It's a conflict that builds on what's inherent to the Dragon World itself. It stands on its own two feet without relying on tropes popularized by lesser series.
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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Olympian » Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:15 pm

They probably did, internet connections were just much slower back then. If you had it. At home.

What I am trying to say is, Is a pretty Shonen staple to be upset at unless you`re fed up with the clichés and wanted instead Goku to be the villain of the arc.
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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by AromaticPond » Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:18 pm

Best episode of Super (but that is not saying much).
17's appearance was surprising kinda figured Frieza would appear, I thought he had turned when UI ran out. Good to see some fresh blood though.
After the movies I can not see super continuing - Goku, Jiren, Vegeta? and nearly everybody who sneezed in super have surpassed the GoDs at this stage
so who/ what will be the next big opponent Beerus? Okay, what next? Next opponent after that is going to be
something stronger than a GoD - plus Beerus is obsolete now, I'm going to destroy Earth, oh wait here is Goku/
Vegeta. Or Goku ascends or becomes some kind of God type figure? Equals goku leaving or it goes back to the last
point, somebody stronger than a God so what becomes of the rest of the characters? They'll become even more
useless than they are now.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by foxfang4 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:31 pm

I'm relieved to be honest. Sure Goku's last wind was cliche and safe, but it wasn't disrespectful to the series like say something the Last Jedi was to Star Wars. I'd love it for Dragon Ball to be 10/10 perfection. But I think what we got was a spectacle for the ages and I'm very glad to have this as part of DB lore. It hit an impressive amount of emotional beats perfectly. Some may have been missed but I was on the edge of my seat until the very last shot. And that's something very few shows can do for me.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Master Xar » Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:31 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Master Xar wrote:Your example is faulted [spoiler]Lucci is undoubtedly evil as opposed to Jiren who is a misguided broken man[/spoiler] perspective and character opposition makes a story all the more better, in a sense Jiren is Goku had he taken a wrong step, a foil to him, that’s what can make something “generic” mean more, that’s what makes stories like Persona so great despite the “generic” lesson in bonds, in Persona 5 [spoiler]Akechi’s[/spoiler]background and perspective makes him different to Sasuke despite the words and dialogue that are said and that makes him a VASTLY different character
It doesn't matter as to whether or not Jiren is evil. My point is that the fight, the conflict, the drama - all of it has no identity of their own. it all meshes into the same bag of generic Shounen tropes and lines that can apply to any situation. Any concept can be a good one with a proper execution, I'm not gonna say that the idea was doomed from the get-go because it wasn't. i'm saying they did nothing interesting with it; all they did was write something that could be applied to any other series as I proved above. You look at the script of any other major DB conflict, and you absolutely cannot mistake it for any other show. It has its own identity. It's original. It's a conflict that builds on what's inherent to the Dragon World itself. It stands on its own two feet without relying on tropes popularized by lesser series.
way to miss the entire context of my reply by cutting out the upper half and like I said earlier, dialogue doesn’t always make a scene, perspective or background can change the strength or force behind those words, that’s basic writing, “I hate the idea of teammates and friendship” can stem from many different backgrounds and motives for saying those words, and I personally find this one with Jiren more unique than you are making it out to be, it stood out because Jiren is like Goku had he taken a wrong step a foil, that’s what makes the scene it’s own, it’s Goku’s foil, Jiren, saying those words. That friendship doesn’t matter and the pursuit of strength for “himself” and he later admits during his breakdown that it’s not only for himself, but that he doesn’t want to lose what he has, like Goku pursuit of strength is for “himself” but he has friends he wants to keep rather than being afraid of losing them.

That’s why I think the scene stands on its own, I suggest you at least give it a rewatch to try to understand the dialogue then laying it down as “this lower shonen did it”

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Doctor. » Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:45 pm

Master Xar wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Master Xar wrote:Your example is faulted [spoiler]Lucci is undoubtedly evil as opposed to Jiren who is a misguided broken man[/spoiler] perspective and character opposition makes a story all the more better, in a sense Jiren is Goku had he taken a wrong step, a foil to him, that’s what can make something “generic” mean more, that’s what makes stories like Persona so great despite the “generic” lesson in bonds, in Persona 5 [spoiler]Akechi’s[/spoiler]background and perspective makes him different to Sasuke despite the words and dialogue that are said and that makes him a VASTLY different character
It doesn't matter as to whether or not Jiren is evil. My point is that the fight, the conflict, the drama - all of it has no identity of their own. it all meshes into the same bag of generic Shounen tropes and lines that can apply to any situation. Any concept can be a good one with a proper execution, I'm not gonna say that the idea was doomed from the get-go because it wasn't. i'm saying they did nothing interesting with it; all they did was write something that could be applied to any other series as I proved above. You look at the script of any other major DB conflict, and you absolutely cannot mistake it for any other show. It has its own identity. It's original. It's a conflict that builds on what's inherent to the Dragon World itself. It stands on its own two feet without relying on tropes popularized by lesser series.
way to miss the entire context of my reply by cutting out the upper half and like I said earlier, dialogue doesn’t always make a scene, perspective or background can change the strength or force behind those words, that’s basic writing, “I hate the idea of teammates and friendship” can stem from many different backgrounds and motives for saying those words, and I personally find this one with Jiren more unique than you are making it out to be, it stood out because Jiren is like Goku had he taken a wrong step a foil, that’s what makes the scene it’s own, it’s Goku’s foil, Jiren, saying those words. That friendship doesn’t matter and the pursuit of strength for “himself” and he later admits during his breakdown that it’s not only for himself, but that he doesn’t want to lose what he has, like Goku pursuit of strength is for “himself” but he has friends he wants to keep rather than being afraid of losing them.

That’s why I think the scene stands on its own, I suggest you at least give it a rewatch to try to understand the dialogue then laying it down as “this lower shonen did it”
You keep talking about the concept behind the fight and I keep telling you the concept on its own is fine; it's the execution and the way it was presented that I have a problem with. It's bland, uninspired, generic and lacking in identity, with no dialogue to call its own, and I've given my reasons for it. The idea itself was fine, it was just poorly done. At this point, I'll agree to disagree or else we'll go in circles.

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