lord turbo wrote:8bitdee wrote:Fans Pre-130: "Super hasn't given Goku any character development at all. He's still the same dickhead he's always been, it's sooooo annoying!"
Fans post-130: "WTF Toei,show some consistency for fuck's sake. Keep Goku the same he's always been!"
No, no, no...That is not what anyone is suggesting, this is the same meaningless defense people give to valid criticism when they have no counterpoiny such as "its a kids show/it was always this terrible/ flash > substance/etc.
Michsi wrote:I don't think it's that. I honestly think that the prospect of everyone dying just pushed him further, it's just relayed to us in a super poetic way because it needs to stand in contradiction to Jiren's world view. Not to mention that Toppo's reaction help drive home another point "Oh, so he does care about others." This, again, is to place him as Jiren's opposite. Jiren is a hero, but he doesn't care about others; Goku isn't a hero, but he does care about the people in his life.
That is a problem Toriyama has with DB in general, he doesn't know how to show without telling. Had this never been verbally said out loud Toppo would think no differently of Goku meaning his actions does not match the words being spoken when they should one and the same, but that requires Toriyama putting in actual talented effort amd that guy's whole MO is less work the better.
lancerman wrote:a lot of people would argue that the Cell arc was the out of character anomaly arc.
Goku only stormed the Red Ribbon Army base for his friend Upa so he could get all the Dragon Balls and ressurect Bora.
Goku's entire motivation in the King Piccolo arc was that Kuriren was killed and his friends were getting murdered and he was pissed.
Goku was fighting to save the Earth in the Saiyan arc and was rushing back to save his friends and he was legit terrified of the Saiyans power.
The Cell Saga was consistent to his character, RRA sags was the result of Goku being immature and being reactionary, when Android 8 tried to teach him humanity it went in one ear and out the way due to Toriyama not being able to stick to his themes so Goku learns nothing and Android 8 is shown as a hypocrite by reacting blindly in rage and effectively killing Silver in one punch just right after trying to teach Goku humanity.
Despite the Saiyan Saga Goku legit became excited and curious in facing the saiyans, he wanted Nappa to come at him full force to see what he could bring, same with Vegeta amd this is flat out mentioned in inmer dialogue and narration, in fact, this arc bluntly states how selfish Goku is.
When Kuririn was justified in trying to kill Vegeta Goku intervened not to show compassion or mercy like the English dub suggests, but so he could take another swing at Vegeta since letting a strong warrior die would be such a waste. This infuriated Kuririn as he was struggling greatly not to kill Vegeta right there and then crying and showing frusteation that theor allies are dead because of those prick, but Goku knows this is entirely wrong and selfish on his part, but begs for it anyway.
This is Goku's true colors, he's a blood knight that happens to be beneficial for Earth in the long run. Whether this makes Goku a terrible or great character is debatable, but it is who he us and the majority of the fanbase forget this consistent trait of his.
Kuriren's death in the Freeza arc was what prompted Goku to turn into a Super Saiyan and Kuriren was a soft spot for Goku that entire fight "are you talking about Kuriren".
Again, reactionary as Goku was in rage, yet maybe 5 minutes later he was more interested in facing Freeza at his best despite the clock ticking and King Kai urging Goku to hurry up and beat Freeza now.and get off the planet, even after Freeza cut himself in half and begged with Goki screaming out all the people he shamelessly killed without Mercy he still ended up giving the man that murdered Kuririn energy to flee and still doesn't finish this back stabbing bastard off and admits as such to Trunks on Earth when he meets him saying he was careless and was hoping against all odds on Freeza changing.
Gohan in the Cell arc was prompted into SSJ2 by 16's speech about fighting to preserve life.
That speech was 50/50 about protecting life and Gohan letting go to his anger since he was afraid of unleashing it. It actually makes Gohan look insulting as this should be painfully obvious without being verbally told, yet he is by a complete and perfect stranger in the form of a robot which is what sets him off, not the threat of the family, friends, and the world and beyond on the very of edge of annihilation itself. It doesn't help that Goku apologizes to Gohan and to tell him to tell Chi-chi he's sorry for doing whateber he wants and being a self centered selfish person as his "final" farewell.
The Cell saga by comparison is almost notable for how ridiculous Goku's stance in it was even by his standards. And by the Buu arc Goku was acting stupid at the beginning but he was the one begging Vegeta to fuse to end everything once and for all. Goku only overstepped his bounds when he was of the opinion that he could beat Boo on his own and that others could as well.
Its only ridiculous if you blatantly ignore Goku's consistent characterization. Goku only makes the right chouce as a last desparate resort or when he's guilted into it. Instead of thinking of the Earth first Goku lets his pride, ego, and selfishness kick start the events of the Buu Saga when he could instantly and easily avoid it by giving in to Vegeta's midlife crisis request, again BS with Fat Buu, and so on and so on, the entire Buu Saga is Goku bsing and letting the problem get worst and worst with each passing moment.
The same thing occurs in RoF arc, where Vegeta and Goku happily ignore character development in the form of brushing aside Whis suggestion in fighting togethet to eliminate threats before they can start. The same thing happens in the Goku Black arc, for all of this suppose talk about Goku thinking of others he consistently does the opposite and does his own selfish thing because that is who he is, he ain't ever going to change as that would destroy the core aspect and flaw that makes Goku unique.
It was never as heavy handed as it was in this episode, but it's mistake to say that Goku's friends weren't motivating factors in him pushing himself to become stronger and to defeat enemies. I think some people fell in love with the idea of the selfish fighter Goku and sometimes mistakenly over push that aspect.
How can you say that when unlike Toei Toriyama had been very consistent to that trait to the point its Goku biggest weakeness and flaw? You can't say he fight for his friends and such when literally in the previous episode the exact opposite is said and he literally becomes stronger because of it, lol, I mean which it, Toei is literally sending out mixed signals due to their horrible writing.
I have zero issues with Goku fighting for others and more than himself, even empowered by it which I think that would have been phenomenal character development, but that needs to be gradually earned over the course of the series, not something broughtt up literally at the last second. Showing a montage of previous scenes from the series with different context doesn't cut it, that's simply bad, cheap, and contrived writing.
This is my biggest gripe sith DBS, they literally have all the tools and ingredients for a great, not good, but great storytelling, but they refuse to use it and instead constantly drop the ball left and right and that's not cool.
