Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

[dbgtFO]

I find it funny there were no reactions from the Zeno and Grand Priest this episode, when this was the most hype episode ever.

[kemuri07]

That really isn't what DB is about though, save for a few specific scenes here and there. Goku never actively used his friends as a direct motivator, in the sense that we the audience never saw it, and the show didn't choose to dwell on it like this. We could ASSUME that Goku was fighting for his friends against Cell, for instance, of course, but they didn't need to have some big melodramatic speech about it.

It's actually one of those things that people take for granted, in that DB spawned the shonen craze, and a lot of those shows that were inspired by DB went on to rely a lot on this "the power of friendship" trope. But if you actually go back and pay attention, DB itself never really placed much weight on this trick. The show never really fell back on this cliche, and those rare times it did, it amounted to jack shit, like when Goku thinks of his family and fires a KKx20 at Freeza.

The problem here is that some people want to do revisionist history and either twist or stretch certain sems to mean something completely else. The Cell Saga is a good example as it is explicitly mentioned Goku is not fighting for the Earth or his friends, the same thing happens during the Buu Saga where the fate of the universe is on the line and all Goku can focus on is the momdnt of the fight and nothing else with Vegeta's inner dialogue stating he's fighting for himself and not for anything like love, peace, family, or friends where his attitude allows him to push his own limits and so on.

This consistent character trait exist through out db/z and most of DBS, hell, Whis in the previous episode mentioned this very thing abouy Goku's nature, but of course since it conflicts with the current episode people want to try and bend history and say deep down Goku was a hero with a heart od gold that fought against oppression and for the little guy and etc.

Yeah, no, don't twist Goku into something he's not is all I'm saying.

Why is no one treating Goku's obvious change of motivation, which is in stark contrast to 122, as a progression or development of his mentality during this arc? Since its pretty obvious that's what they were going for.

Because Super doesn't do it well, like, at all.

On paper, that is an interesring arc for Goku. Goku has never had to concede his pride the way people like Tien, Piccolo, and Vegeta has had to. And they are arguably better people because of it.

Not Goku.

Everything goes his way. Even when the dude dies, he still somehow wins because of course he does. What once made him charismatic has made him arrogant. He just naturally assumes that everything will work out for him.

Now imagine of the arc focused on Goku's negative tendencies; imagine if, when fighting Jiren he's forced to realize he's going to lose. And for the first time, hes scared. He knows there's no coming back from--and he has no one to blame for himself. And he suddenly realizes that he fights not for himself, not because he's bored, but he does for his friends and family. *bam* mother fucker realizes the power of friendship, turns into Ultra instinct, and I just made a better character arc than what a bunch of paid writers did.

Super being Super naturally fucks this up because God forbid they admit their cash cow actually has some damning flaws.

[SsjCookie]

The writing remains thoroughly shit for me. I get what they want to do: Jiren's the guy entirely out for himself and Goku, in a twist, is supposed to be the guy not being selfish for once. On paper, that's pretty great, execution wise I don't really feel anything. Jiren's motivations for how and why he is the way he is does nothing for me, it doesn't make him interesting or even sympathetic and their way of having Goku convey how unselfish he is for once is literally every trite, Shonen protagonist "FOR MUH NAKAMA!" spiel ever delivered.

Goku suddenly gaining the power of friendship and family after being so initially selfish all the time, really doesn't do much for me in the "feels" department.
By that account why didn't that trope work for Ribrianne or Heck... Vegeta if that were the case?

It's also teeth grindly annoying how they also backpeddle on last episode where Goku delibarately not caring about anything but the battle itself is what helps him further master UI but now he's getting powerful by doing the opposite? I don't give a fuck what excuse you want to throw at this show, that's an insult to everyone who's paying even one iota of attention to what people are doing and saying.

Wasn't the fact that Goku not caring about anything but the battle itself supposed to be a strength?
Because thinking about ones family and friends was supposed to distract too much in the battle?
That theory really went nowhere now.
The Power of family and friendship only works with Goku it seems.

[ekrolo2]

Giving Jiren a power up so that they could give Goku a "nakama" power up was bad. What was the point of that besides being cheesy? It was over the top to cheaply bring some emotions out of the viewers, common trend in the anime. This wrapped in Jiren attempted murder which is bad from several perspectives.

The attempted murder needs no further elaboration for its suckage than the show (actually) expecting us to think that Goku's friends and allies are in danger when several GoDs and Angels are all there to bitch slap Jiren's attack away.

[Doctor.]

I can't believe how hard some of you are missing the point. It doesn't matter whether Goku has always fought for his friends or not. The point is that it was never verbalized to this extent because Dragon Ball avoids this kind of kitsch storytelling and unorganic drama. These melodramatic, over-the-top "MY NAKAMA" (or "MY PAST" in Jiren's case) speeches that culminate in nonsensical power boosts are something that the series has never done before and you'd pardon someone if you took the script of this episode, changed the names around, and they'd mistake it for an episode of One Piece or Fairy Tail.

[Simere]

I agree, the writing has been all over the place and thematic direction suffers quite a because of that. We have Piccolo telling Gohan to not think of his family and just focus on the fight, we have Goku zipping left and right to fight as many people as he can, we have many U& characters forgo team work to fight alone,'cuz that's how they roll, we have Goku straight up saying that all he practically cares about is fighting strong opponents. Despite that, I still believe Goku thinking of the others is not that strange or out of place. Circumstances help with selling it. Same as in BOG, when the danger of his friends getting hurt is immediate, his protectiveness and affection for them becomes apparent. As it should. No matter how much DB tries to avoid sentimentality, to have Goku not be concerned about his family and friends in that moment would be beyond cold. People take "Goku is pure, fights just for fighting" to the extreme.

I agree with you about those people who have no room in their minds for nuance about Goku's motivations. I get the feeling many of them used to buy into the false idea he was a superhero, and now they have a sort of convert's zeal in the opposite. Just so you know, that's not what I meant when I referenced purity.

I wonder if anyone has classified nakama power into different types? I feel like there's different kinds; some of it I'm fine with, and some I think cross the line. I think there were three different kinds shown this episode:

1. Motivational: Thinking of your loved ones helps you to persevere through the challenge, to keep striving. Willpower and endurance that normally wouldn't be accessible to you. 110%. The easiest variant to accept, but I actually do have a problem with Goku using it. I think those extra reserves are something Goku does normally have access to thanks to his purity; in a fight like this Goku is putting everything his body and spirit have into it. He shouldn't need prompting by outside motivation to keep going. There should be nothing for this nakama power to tap into if it tried because he'd already have spent it all.

I know it happened in BoG too, and I didn't like it then, either. But back then it didn't feel played out, and I wasn't invested in this "fighting for fighting" idea.

2. Triggered: Your friends get put in danger, or die, and the character loses it. Classic Goku. I have no problem with this. It makes sense to me that increased aggressiveness through anger would have good results in a fight. This isn't the same thing as a "rage boost", to be clear.

3. Endowed Power: Actually receiving a tangible power boost from hope and love. The ultimate cheapening effect. I admit I might be being too sensitive about this; it might not have actually happened this episode. But when Goku's speed improves and Piccolo says "It's because of our hope"...my frustration thinking about how absurd an idea that is kills it for me. I become Jiren in these moments. Meaningless! Ridiculous!

My extreme bias against this type is the main reason I was happy with the Black arc's ending. Plus, like I said in my previous post, it raises a bunch of questions that can't be answered.

And it just might be that hearing Jiren's story and his views regarding bonds and friends prompted Goku's feelings on the matter to rise to the surface. See, Jiren did love his family and friends, but he chose to throw them away. Goku doesn't. He very much believes he came as far as he did as a warrior thanks to the people in his life, Roshi narrates that for us.

Coming as far as he has in life because of his friends and enemies is one thing, and I feel it goes without saying. When Goku says stuff like, "This is our power" — if he means that without Freeza, Vegeta, 17 and everyone else assisting him throughout the tournament he wouldn't be in a position to be standing there fighting Jiren, then okay. Feel like that's making too big a deal out of it*, but okay. But if he's talking about being type 3 nakama powered after getting back up from that ki blast to the back? Well, I already said what I think about that.

*Another problem I have with nakama power is that it often feels patronizing to the nakama characters. Sometimes it makes it feel like their only purpose is to be a nakama battery. And maybe it is, but to have them acknowledge and accept that while smiling and nodding along?

[RedHeat]

I can't believe how hard some of you are missing the point. It doesn't matter whether Goku has always fought for his friends or not. The point is that it was never verbalized to this extent because Dragon Ball avoids this kind of kitsch storytelling and unorganic drama. These melodramatic, over-the-top "MY NAKAMA" (or "MY PAST" in Jiren's case) speeches that culminate in nonsensical power boosts are something that the series has never done before and you'd pardon someone if you took the script of this episode, changed the names around, and they'd mistake it for an episode of One Piece or Fairy Tail.

Maybe some people just prefer that, it's not that deep dude.

[foxfang4]

Question: Is there any way to confirm if Goku was really trying to give Jiren his energy at the end? Or was he trying to eliminate him? I've been reading around the internet, and it seems a lot of people are split on it. However I did notice that the light of his ki was the same colour from a few scenes earlier when Goku is launching a ki blast.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Question: Is there any way to confirm if Goku was really trying to give Jiren his energy at the end? Or was he trying to eliminate him? I've been reading around the internet, and it seems a lot of people are split on it. However I did notice that the light of his ki was the same colour from a few scenes earlier when Goku is launching a ki blast.

Well, unless they tell us next episode, we'll never know

[Doctor.]

I can't believe how hard some of you are missing the point. It doesn't matter whether Goku has always fought for his friends or not. The point is that it was never verbalized to this extent because Dragon Ball avoids this kind of kitsch storytelling and unorganic drama. These melodramatic, over-the-top "MY NAKAMA" (or "MY PAST" in Jiren's case) speeches that culminate in nonsensical power boosts are something that the series has never done before and you'd pardon someone if you took the script of this episode, changed the names around, and they'd mistake it for an episode of One Piece or Fairy Tail.

Maybe some people just prefer that, it's not that deep dude.

I don't have a problem with people preferring it. They can like garbage all they want. I have a problem with people throwing the original series under the bus and saying "D-Dragon Ball has always been like this!" No, no it hasn't and you severely need to understand subtlety and nuance if you think it has.

Not exactly sure what "it's not that deep" is meant to mean but seeing a once-good series that shaped the genre ruined by tropes and clichés that its lesser successors popularized is depressing and infuriating. And seeing everyone praise this kind of garbage shit and acting like it was always commonplace is the first step in killing critical thinking and telling Toei Animation "You can shit out whatever you want that we'll eat it anyway!" It's not that deep? Yes, fuck artistic integrity, who cares about any of that.

[Deathbeam]

I was actually hoping for Frieza to have been the one to incapacitate Goku at the end, if only to firmly cement his place as a villain. I really, really, REALLY don't like the direction they're heading with that character.

Quote from Goku to Frieza: If you weren't rotten to the core, you would be the perfect sparring partner.

I strongly hope that Frieza will become the anti-hero: belonging to Z fighters but somehow not entirely.

That would be awesome without spoiling his past as space tyrant.

[ekrolo2]

I can't believe how hard some of you are missing the point. It doesn't matter whether Goku has always fought for his friends or not. The point is that it was never verbalized to this extent because Dragon Ball avoids this kind of kitsch storytelling and unorganic drama. These melodramatic, over-the-top "MY NAKAMA" (or "MY PAST" in Jiren's case) speeches that culminate in nonsensical power boosts are something that the series has never done before and you'd pardon someone if you took the script of this episode, changed the names around, and they'd mistake it for an episode of One Piece or Fairy Tail.

Maybe some people just prefer that, it's not that deep dude.

I don't have a problem with people preferring it. They can like garbage all they want. I have a problem with people throwing the original series under the bus and saying "D-Dragon Ball has always been like this!" No, no it hasn't and you severely need to understand subtlety and nuance if you think it has.

Not exactly sure what "it's not that deep" is meant to mean but seeing a once-good series that shaped the genre ruined by tropes and clichés that its lesser successors popularized is depressing and infuriating. And seeing everyone praise this kind of garbage shit and acting like it was always commonplace is the first step in killing critical thinking and telling Toei Animation "You can shit out whatever you want that we'll eat it anyway!" It's not that deep? Yes, fuck artistic integrity, who cares about any of that.

You're living in the 2010s, the decade built on the destruction of artistic integrity and people soaking it up because its "fun" in the most vague, often superficial way possible. All that's left is the "Lord of Rings is getting a sequel trilogy!" announcement and we've officially hit rock bottom. It's a sad but true state of affairs.

[Simere]

Artistic integrity hasn't sounded right to me since ME3.

[ekrolo2]

Artistic integrity hasn't sounded right to me since ME3.

Where do you think it started from

[Vegeta_Sama]

Question: Is there any way to confirm if Goku was really trying to give Jiren his energy at the end? Or was he trying to eliminate him? I've been reading around the internet, and it seems a lot of people are split on it. However I did notice that the light of his ki was the same colour from a few scenes earlier when Goku is launching a ki blast.

He was obviously about to blast him out of bounds. Just look at the position of his arc, it's more of an attack stance rather than a "lend energy" one.

[goku the krump dancer]

Right before UI gave out I thought Goku was about to give Jiren some Energy and tell him to jump off lol. The fight was pretty cool though, the writing like most have said is all over the place. I hope that Toyble handle's this better.

[Spencer_23]

Loved the episode! One of the best fights we’ve ever gotten from the franchise

[RedHeat]

I was actually hoping for Frieza to have been the one to incapacitate Goku at the end, if only to firmly cement his place as a villain. I really, really, REALLY don't like the direction they're heading with that character.

Quote from Goku to Frieza: If you weren't rotten to the core, you would be the perfect sparring partner.

I strongly hope that Frieza will become the anti-hero: belonging to Z fighters but somehow not entirely.

That would be awesome without spoiling his past as space tyrant.

How would you feel if he became a GoD?

Loved the episode! One of the best fights we’ve ever gotten from the franchise

I agree. This episode will go down is history.

[Mercenary]

I find it funny there were no reactions from the Zeno and Grand Priest this episode, when this was the most hype episode ever.

And that was probably one of the best aspects of that episode. Not even a single scene with those annoying brats.

[Husig]

Question: Is there any way to confirm if Goku was really trying to give Jiren his energy at the end? Or was he trying to eliminate him? I've been reading around the internet, and it seems a lot of people are split on it. However I did notice that the light of his ki was the same colour from a few scenes earlier when Goku is launching a ki blast.

I also think he wanted to give him some energy. This would also explain why he run out of power and went into base. He needed all the remaining power he got to keep mui, but the moment were he extracted some energy from his body was the moment were mui collapsed.