Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

[Acetona]

I really beg to differ. While the episode was awesomely animated, it felt way too boring. The narrative didn't appeal me in the slightest.
Tbh, I feel REALLY offended by that friendship bullshit they're pulling. It's like Fairy Tail or Saint Seiya and other mediocre battle shounen. Goku trained alone for the majority of his life, only to become stronger. Ultra Instinct wasn't triggered by his friends, it isn't "our power" as Goku said. Talk about acting out of character.

[Master Xar]

It doesn't matter as to whether or not Jiren is evil. My point is that the fight, the conflict, the drama - all of it has no identity of their own. it all meshes into the same bag of generic Shounen tropes and lines that can apply to any situation. Any concept can be a good one with a proper execution, I'm not gonna say that the idea was doomed from the get-go because it wasn't. i'm saying they did nothing interesting with it; all they did was write something that could be applied to any other series as I proved above. You look at the script of any other major DB conflict, and you absolutely cannot mistake it for any other show. It has its own identity. It's original. It's a conflict that builds on what's inherent to the Dragon World itself. It stands on its own two feet without relying on tropes popularized by lesser series.

way to miss the entire context of my reply by cutting out the upper half and like I said earlier, dialogue doesn’t always make a scene, perspective or background can change the strength or force behind those words, that’s basic writing, “I hate the idea of teammates and friendship” can stem from many different backgrounds and motives for saying those words, and I personally find this one with Jiren more unique than you are making it out to be, it stood out because Jiren is like Goku had he taken a wrong step a foil, that’s what makes the scene it’s own, it’s Goku’s foil, Jiren, saying those words. That friendship doesn’t matter and the pursuit of strength for “himself” and he later admits during his breakdown that it’s not only for himself, but that he doesn’t want to lose what he has, like Goku pursuit of strength is for “himself” but he has friends he wants to keep rather than being afraid of losing them.

That’s why I think the scene stands on its own, I suggest you at least give it a rewatch to try to understand the dialogue then laying it down as “this lower shonen did it”

You keep talking about the concept behind the fight and I keep telling you the concept on its own is fine; it's the execution and the way it was presented that I have a problem with. It's bland, uninspired, generic and lacking in identity, with no dialogue to call its own, and I've given my reasons for it. The idea itself was fine, it was just poorly done. At this point, I'll agree to disagree or else we'll go in circles.

and you keep telling me the scene lacks identity without giving me an example Expy, just dialogue, ok then, one last question if it’s so generic and lacking identity, name 2 characters just like Goku and Jiren in background, motivation and opposites (in essence the same identity)

One is a self-proclaimed Super-Hero who is nothing, but a broken man bordering on being “ good” at all, one is a man who doesn’t consider himself a hero, but is more heroic than the former.

One strives for strength from fear of losing something and pursuit of repairing a damaged ego, the other does it for himself and for his friend/family without fear of losing them.

One is stoic and solemn, serious, and cynical, the other bubbling with spirit, happy, laidback, and optimistic

One has those cheering him on for his strength, the other has those cheering him on for him.

One can’t let go of the past, the other strives for the future.

One has no trust in others and only himself and his own strength, the other trusts others a bit too much, but can rely on others to guide his strength and theirs further

Name one expy counterpart duo that has 4/6 of these and I will gladly admit the scene is lacking identity.

[Doctor.]

One is a self-proclaimed Super-Hero who is nothing, but a broken man bordering on being “ good” at all, one is a man who doesn’t consider himself a hero, but is more heroic than the former.
One strives for strength from fear of losing something and pursuit of repairing a damaged ego, the other does it for himself and for his friend/family without fear of losing them.One is stoic and solemn, serious, and cynical, the other bubbling with spirit, happy, laidback, and optimistic
One has those cheering him on for his strength, the other has those cheering him on for him.
One can’t let go of the past, the other strives for the future.
One has no trust in others and only himself and his own strength, the other trusts others a bit too much, but can rely on others to guide his strength and theirs further

Name one expy counterpart duo that has 4/6 of these and I will gladly admit the scene is lacking identity.

Pain vs Naruto fulfills literally all of these requirements.

Most of the major villains in Naruto do, actually (which is why I said this conflict doesn't feel like Dragon Ball and lacks identity), but Naruto vs Pain is probably the best example. The Naruto antagonists may not be "superheroes," but they're morally ambiguous and consider themselves to be saviors, so it works about as well. They're all foils to Naruto and examples of what he'd end up becoming if he took the wrong path, too. So, there, I proved it to you. Is there anything about this conflict that makes it unique?

[Acetona]

Pain vs Naruto fulfills literally all of these requirements.

Most of the major villains in Naruto do, actually (which is why I said this conflict doesn't feel like Dragon Ball and lacks identity), but Naruto vs Pain is probably the best example. The Naruto antagonists may not be "superheroes," but they're morally ambiguous and consider themselves to be saviors, so it works about as well. They're all foils to Naruto and examples of what he'd end up becoming if he took the wrong path, too. So, there, I proved it to you. Is there anything about this conflict that makes it unique?

Thanks. I read some replies you did here, and I can't disagree with you. This didn't feel like Dragon Ball at all.
And, at least, I enjoyed Naruto better lol

[jeffbr92]

I never post over in the Super section, but, geez, this episode was just absolutely terrible. If there's one thing that amazes me about this series is how, every time I think it's hit rock bottom, it always, always, ALWAYS finds a new way to disappoint. The only thing this episode had going for it was good animation, but that just means it looks pretty while having no substance. For the first two-thirds of the episode, I was just bored, but that's nothing new for me. This tournament has just gone on for so long that it's impossible for me to stay invested in it. Well, I should add that there's very little emotion in this arc to get me invested in the first place. But even if it did, it has long overstayed its welcome to the point that I can barely remember anything that happens anymore. It all just runs together. Case in point: when the recap started up this time, I honestly had to check to make sure I didn't skip an episode because none of that was ringing a bell.

But then, lo and behold, the episode finally managed to get my attention. I did somewhat enjoy the flashbacks and speeches. Although they were slightly cringy in their shonen stereotype kind of way, at least they seemed like they were finally trying to make this about something. And I was very curious to see where it went. And then Jiren, the most boring antagonist in Dragon Ball's history... cracked. And he attacked the stands. And for the first time in months, this show had my full, undivided attention. What was going to happen now? Had Jiren gone maverick? After all, that was coming dangerously close to hitting his own gods. What were they going to do about this? Well, turns out, and I really shouldn't have been surprised, the answer is nothing. As always, this show continues to take an interesting idea and do absolutely nothing creative with it.

And yet I could still overlook it to a degree because at least it motivated Goku, so it wasn't a total waste. So I was all prepared to witness the endgame, and concede that at least it ended on a relatively high note. Granted, for a second it looked like Goku was going to do that stupid ki-sharing thing again since this arc can't do anything without aping the Freeza Arc. But it didn't. Instead, in a very cool-looking segment, Goku's back exploded, and he went down. I was on the edge of my seat. What could have happened? For a moment, it occurred to me that maybe Freeza finally betrayed the team. To what end, who knows, but I couldn't wait to find out. And then, in the clunkiest bit of exposition in a tournament filled to the brim with clunky exposition, Whis reveals that Goku's Ultra Instinct just crapped out. What?

Do these people just not know how to end a story? Because it was the same problem with the Trunks Arc too. They had what could have been a satisfying ending and couldn't follow through with it because throwing in a lame twist was more important. And they didn't manage to learn their lesson with that! They had to do it again! But I still held out a glimmer of hope that if Goku did get taken out, maybe, just maybe, they'd manage to come up with an unpredictable ending. Maybe. But, no, they couldn't even do that. They just had to keep Goku safe. Oh, and then #17 just casually wandered back in going, "Hey, guys. I was just hiding under a rock for no reason. Oh? You thought I was dead? What in that scene made you think I was dead? I don't see how anybody would have even assumed that in the first place. Honestly, I can't imagine how you could have had any idea what was going on at all. Oh? The Grand Priest told you I was dead, and since that was literally all you had to go on, you just assumed he knew what he was talking about? No, he's an idiot. I'm alive. I just decided to make you sweat it out for the past month thinking I was dead for... reasons."

And now what? The next episode wraps everything up, right? So now what? A whole episode to deal with the aftermath would have been the smart thing to do. Now we have to have the final final battle and deal with the erasure and the winning and the wishing and the ending all in less than half an hour? I don't see how that could possibly be anything but rushed and disappointing. And maybe I'll be wrong. And if so, I'll gladly admit it. But I'm sick of giving this garbage the benefit of the doubt. Every single time I try to give it credit, I end up, at best, furious, and, more likely, just looking at my watch hoping this snooze-fest ends soon. This is going to be manga Freeza Arc ending all over again. They'll just hold on an image of the dragon and have the narrator rush through exposition of what everybody did.

I tried. I really tried. I've tried to give this show credit for the small successes it has had. I came into this arc hyped as all get out. I want to like this. But it's finally broken me. This show is a disaster. An absolute disaster. I hope it ends and never comes back again.

Wow and I thought we couldn't get any other worthwhile contribution than Doctor.'s one, that was an excellent post Gaffer Tape!

It's a fact, mate. One Piece is better than DB = opinion, One Piece is more enjoyable than DB = opinion, but One Piece being vastly superior to DB storywise is a FACT.

It's not. That's just your inner fanboy talking through your shell. I read and watched a dozen of episodes of One Piece and I was not invested at all. It's shallow and has more annoying "nakama" tropes than Dragon Ball ever had. The only fact we have is that Dragon Ball is way bigger than One Piece will ever will be either in Japan or in overseas and that's something you can't deny. Being better at storytelling or not still subjective.

No, it's not all subjective. You can't listen to an MP3 and a FLAC and say, "well subjectively one sounds better than the other and there's no argument against that." No, there are technical factors about the FLAC version that makes it superior to an MP3. When it comes to a comic book series, it's composed of several factors; setting, story, character development, pacing, artwork, composition, dialogue, etc etc, and quality of all these factors can be measured objectively.
I'm not saying OP surpasses DB in those and all other factors. I just mean technically speaking, just how a FLAC sounds better than an MP3, OP is better in telling a story, and does a better job at progressing its cast and developing them.

You're kidding right? We're talking about two manga series and now you're trying to make an analogy with audio formats? That's just silly man, I didn't though anyone would go so far to prove a point. Like I said to OverHeaven saying One Piece is better storywise than Dragon Ball is subjective, there's no fact in something people enjoy more than others.

[Master Xar]

One is a self-proclaimed Super-Hero who is nothing, but a broken man bordering on being “ good” at all, one is a man who doesn’t consider himself a hero, but is more heroic than the former.
One strives for strength from fear of losing something and pursuit of repairing a damaged ego, the other does it for himself and for his friend/family without fear of losing them.One is stoic and solemn, serious, and cynical, the other bubbling with spirit, happy, laidback, and optimistic
One has those cheering him on for his strength, the other has those cheering him on for him.
One can’t let go of the past, the other strives for the future.
One has no trust in others and only himself and his own strength, the other trusts others a bit too much, but can rely on others to guide his strength and theirs further

Name one expy counterpart duo that has 4/6 of these and I will gladly admit the scene is lacking identity.

Pain vs Naruto fulfills literally all of these requirements.

Most of the major villains in Naruto do, actually (which is why I said this conflict doesn't feel like Dragon Ball and lacks identity), but Naruto vs Pain is probably the best example. The Naruto antagonists may not be "superheroes," but they're morally ambiguous and consider themselves to be saviors, so it works about as well. They're all foils to Naruto and examples of what he'd end up becoming if he took the wrong path, too. So, there, I proved it to you. Is there anything about this conflict that makes it unique?

-1 Pain isn’t a self-claimed hero under a false light for being broken underneath

-1 he doesn’t have people cheering him on only for his strength under the face of being his friend

-1 he doesn’t have that great of a fear of losing something to that point, he strives for peace because he already lost everything and doesn’t want it to happen again to anyone else, he himself is not afraid of personally losing something at that very moment



Will agree on the other 3/6

-0.5 because he is very low on the morality bar and crossed some moral event horizons

Gonna have to give me another one better than that.

[Doctor.]

-1 Pain isn’t a self-claimed hero under a false light for being broken underneath

-1 he doesn’t have people cheering him on only for his strength under the face of being his friend

-1 he doesn’t have that great of a fear of losing something to that point

Will agree on the other 3/6

Gonna have to give me another one better than that.

You're kidding, right? The guy started considering himself a God and a savior of mankind, forsaking all emotion, over the traumatic death of his best friend. Sure, he was also manipulated by Tobi meanwhile, but that just gave him some more depth that Jiren does not have.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that. Neither does Jiren? Toppo considers him his sworn friend, so Jiren does, in fact, have a friend that believes in him that he utterly neglects, much like Pain and Konan's relationship, actually.

Jiren doesn't want to accept that friendship and trust can be a source of strength because that could mean that he took the wrong path and he'd have to forsake everything he did and represented up to that point. That's literally the same conflict in the Pain and Naruto fight.

I think you're just trying to move the goalposts now by going into extreme specifics and details. Jiren isn't all that original, I'm not sure why you're so desperately trying to make him out to be.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Honestly, I just liked the whole conflict of ideologies.

I've hardly ever seen such a contrast highlighted so much in this franchise, and it's refreshing to see in action.

Original or not as a whole, it's certainly not something you see in this series that prominently, at least as far as I can recall, and I think it helps contrast the spectacle of the fights themselves. Goku has formed connections with many people, represented in how his body moved on its own in unison with his mind, whereas Jiren simply called upon more and more power from his own wells and lost control.

[Doctor.]

Honestly, I just liked the whole conflict of ideologies.

I've hardly ever seen such a contrast highlighted so much in this franchise, and it's refreshing to see in action.

Original or not as a whole, it's certainly not something you see in this series that prominently, at least as far as I can recall, and I think it helps contrast the spectacle of the fights themselves. Goku has formed connections with many people, represented in how his body moved on its own in unison with his mind, whereas Jiren simply called upon more and more power from his own wells and lost control.

You had a conflict of ideologies, executed in a better way (even if it was still bad), last arc with Zamasu and Trunks.

[Master Xar]

-1 Pain isn’t a self-claimed hero under a false light for being broken underneath

-1 he doesn’t have people cheering him on only for his strength under the face of being his friend

-1 he doesn’t have that great of a fear of losing something to that point

Will agree on the other 3/6

Gonna have to give me another one better than that.

You're kidding, right? The guy started considering himself a God and a savior of mankind, forsaking all emotion, over the traumatic death of his best friend. Sure, he was also manipulated by Tobi meanwhile, but that just gave him some more depth that Jiren does not have.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that. Neither does Jiren? Toppo considers him his sworn friend, so Jiren does, in fact, have a friend that believes in him that he utterly neglects, much like Pain and Konan's relationship, actually.

Jiren doesn't want to accept that friendship and trust can be a source of strength because that could mean that he took the wrong path and he'd have to forsake everything he did and represented up to that point. That's literally the same conflict in the Pain and Naruto fight.

I think you're just trying to move the goalposts now by going into extreme specifics and details. Jiren isn't all that original, I'm not sure why you're so desperately trying to make him out to be.

Self-proclaimed SUPER-Hero not a god/savior of mankind, nor is he alongside a team of other ones who are actually heroes, he is on a team of those that are also very questionable on morality. All the while Jiren is fighting for his existence and being forced into this situation unlike Pain’s who is optional and can quit anytime he wants, hell he can drop his flags literally through his whole fight with Naruto. I’m not going to argue who is more deep because their situations are too different.

Toppo claims it literally everytime away from Jiren, from Jiren’s perspective he likely thinks he is only liked for his strength.

Yes and also because he doesn’t want to lose what he already has and relive his past points in life never to be held in that same spot again.

Because subtle changes can make an identity work all the more, I could have named far more differences between Jiren and Goku

The fact that Goku came in notorious and painted as a target for his strength and came up clean as opposed to jiren who came in an unknown and underestimated and came out the biggest threat and dreaded. And a couple others.

Because I personally feel this scene has more identity than what people are saying.

[lord turbo]

You said a lot of things but Goku using his friends as motivation WAS reactionary. It was reactionary to get him back to Omen and it was reactionary to get him a second wind here. He still wanted to fight Jiren at his best, he never said he didn't.

I said a lot of truthful things you glossed over, Goku wasn't using them he was protecting them since they were weak innocent bystanders because Jiren forced him to make that choice.

And no the Cell arc is very out of character. People the make the mistake of going far to the extreme with Goku's characterization to justify the Cell arc. Goku isn't some cookie cutter hero, but he's not some freak who doesn't care about people and use protecting or helping them as motivation. He's used that as motivation many times throughout his entire life as early as the Red Ribbon Army arm, to King Piccolo, to the Saiyans, to Freeza.

I never said Goku was heartless, being self centered and selfish =/= void of empathy. Goku's characterization in the Android/Cell saga is consistent and not OoC. He paid a debt to Upa for the RRA and decised they needed to be wiped out, purely took out King Piccolo and his men due to pure hate and revenge (understandable and organic desire), was forced to face the Saiyans (but enjoyed the threat and even flat out admitted such to Kuririn at the end), and put himself in harms way on Namek due to his ego amd pride.

You're overselling one aspect to push a narrative that Goku can only ever act in a certain way, which clearly hasn't been true throughout the series.

I'm not overselling since the narrative bluntly spells this out.

In the Saiyan Arc, Goku fought to protect Earth and his friends and family. He was outright terrified of the Saiyans at different points and was racing against the clock to save his friends.

Yeah, after he made sure everyone was safe, then he decided to take on the saiyans by himselt and enjoyed the battle. Whether Vegeta was a threat or not doesn't change the fact he was overjoyed and had the time of his life fighting him and only kept him alive so he could have another shot at facing him, same deal with Piccolo before him.

Vegeta was going to return to Earth for revenge, even says as much before leaving, but focused on Namek first and then would have return to Earth late5 for revenge. Goku pulled the same nonsense with Freeza, he only regressed back to his old way post Freeza saga, at the end of the day Goku still was selfish and admitted such.

I wasn't talking about the Muscle Tower arc. I was talking about the end of the RRA arc. Goku only went after the Dragon Balls to get the 4 Star ball. Goku only gathered them all and went ham on the RRA because he wanted to help his friend Upa ressurect his father. That entire last part of the arc was Goku being motivated by his new friend.

You said RRA which Muscld Tower is apart of, he only helped Upa out of sense of debt otherwise if it wasn't for crossing paths with RRA he would have went on about his business. I didn't gloss over the King Piccolo saga, Goku was out for blood and blood only, he wanted to slaughtered King Piccolo and his men to avenge his fallen comrade. Goku made it clear either King Piccolodies or he does which is the only way their beef ends.

In the Freeza arc, yes Goku's transformation was reactionary (so was this, Goku used a reactionary motivation to spurn a second wind). He still reached in and got stronger because his best friend died and his other friend and his son were having their lives threatened. That was the motivation. Did Goku let Freeza reach 100%, yeah, by that point he was quite convinced that he could either beat Freeza or they'd both die on Namek so it didn't matter. And no, his friends were still a motivation throughout that battle. Goku freaked out at Freeza even mentioning saying a bad thing about Kuriren. It's a massive reach to suggest Goku didn't have that in mind fighting Freeza.

He didn't reach down deeper, what you are doing is revisionist history. Goku simply was blinded by rage and unintentionally unlocked SSJ from it, that's it. Goku now had the power to vent his rage on Freeza. Goku could have easily oneshot killed Freeza anytime he wanted, but he deliberately let Freeza go 100% and ignored King Kai's constant warning for his safety and survival just to prove his strength against Freeza to crush his pride and show him who'a top dog.

This is clear when they want to wish everyone to Earth, but Goku wants to be left behind so he can finish his beef man to.man without distractions, yet once Goku had his thrill he grew tired of Freeza like a used up toy and told him.to get lost and not cause any trouble ever again. Freeza, like Vegeta before him is still a threat, but Goku ledt him alive, anither foolish mistake that Futurs Trunks got on him about.

I'm pretty sure I'm not infatuated with that idea of Goku, just merely stating the obvious narrative that peolle neglect or brush off. Goku's motivated about pushing his limits and facing strong enemies, he doesn't need family or friends for that, Toriyama even mentions Goku's idea.of fakily and such is different than what we accustom it to.

The narrative of DB clearly supports my position, the Buu Saga is entirely the result of Goku's neglect and selfishness, same deal repeats itself during the Goku Black saga and RoF saga. Again, you miss my point, Goku has never so hamfisted and melodramatic used power of friendship to gain greater power than he current had before, never, until recently in super.

Power of rage and power of friendship are two different things with similar results.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Honestly, I just liked the whole conflict of ideologies.

I've hardly ever seen such a contrast highlighted so much in this franchise, and it's refreshing to see in action.

Original or not as a whole, it's certainly not something you see in this series that prominently, at least as far as I can recall, and I think it helps contrast the spectacle of the fights themselves. Goku has formed connections with many people, represented in how his body moved on its own in unison with his mind, whereas Jiren simply called upon more and more power from his own wells and lost control.

You had a conflict of ideologies, executed in a better way (even if it was still bad), last arc with Zamasu and Trunks.

I don't know why, but I like the way it was done for both instances better than other mediums with similar conflicts of ideology.

The contrast in the actual flow of events with the conflict just blends better for me personally.

[Doctor.]

Self-proclaimed SUPER-Hero not a god/savior of mankind, nor is he alongside a team of other ones who are actually heroes, he is on a team of those that are also very questionable on morality. All the while Jiren is fighting for his existence and being forced into this situation unlike Pain’s who is optional and can quit anytime he wants, hell he can drop his flags literally through his whole fight with Naruto. I’m not going to argue who is more deep because their situations are too different.

You're splitting hairs. Whether it's a Superhero or a God/Savior, they play the same role. It's a character with dubious morality proclaiming himself as something that he very clearly is not. The specifics of their circumstances would be important to distinguish them if DBS actually bothered to build on what makes Jiren unique. But they don't care. Jiren literally has NO interactions with anyone on his team, besides calling Toppo pathetic, so we don't know how Jiren actually fits into his team. Jiren is out-of-place, his position in the Pride Troopers feels about as important to his character arc as Yamcha feels important to the tournament. Again, they had some cool ideas and concepts, but they were either ignored or executed poorly. So it seems to me like you're just trying to push your headcanon on the conflict being shown rather than take in what they actually bothered to present.

And I won't bother replying with the rest because I don't really want to continue the discussion. I've said my piece.

[Omniboy]

Self-proclaimed SUPER-Hero not a god/savior of mankind

Dude, savior is the exact same thing as hero. They're synonyms. Are you trying to say since they are different words, that means that Jiren and Pain are different in this regard, even though both words mean the same thing?

[Master Xar]

Self-proclaimed SUPER-Hero not a god/savior of mankind, nor is he alongside a team of other ones who are actually heroes, he is on a team of those that are also very questionable on morality. All the while Jiren is fighting for his existence and being forced into this situation unlike Pain’s who is optional and can quit anytime he wants, hell he can drop his flags literally through his whole fight with Naruto. I’m not going to argue who is more deep because their situations are too different.

You're splitting hairs. Whether it's a Superhero or a God/Savior, they play the same role. It's a character with dubious morality proclaiming himself as something that he very clearly is not. The specifics of their circumstances would be important if the series actually bothered to build on what makes Jiren unique. But they don't care. Jiren literally has NO interactions with anyone on his team, besides calling Toppo pathetic, so we don't know how Jiren actually fits into his team. Jiren is out-of-place, his position in the Pride Troopers feels about as important to his character arc as Yamcha feels important to the tournament. Again, they had some cool ideas and concepts, but they were either ignored or executed poorly.

And I won't bother replying with the rest because I don't really want to continue the discussion. I've said my piece.

Zamasu is a self-proclaimed god/savior of mankind, not a Super-Hero,there’s a difference between a God Complex and a Savior Complex, one proclaims acts of justice as their RIGHT and DESTINY, the other proclaims it’s because it’s their DUTY and OATH/Code that simple fact changes their entire motivation and identity as a person, it’s why Zamasu and Jiren’s “justices” are different. The fact that he has no interaction with his team already speaks volumes, he is alienated from interactions with other people and his jadedness leads to shallow relationships.

Once again, perspective means everything.

But fine, agree to disagree.

[Master Xar]

Self-proclaimed SUPER-Hero not a god/savior of mankind

Dude, savior is the exact same thing as hero. They're synonyms. Are you trying to say since they are different words, that means that Jiren and Pain are different in this regard, even though both words mean the same thing?

That’s why I said God/Savior of Mankind, its God Complex vs. Savior Complex one believes it as a right or destiny (Zamasu), the other a duty and oath (Jiren)

[Nero<>Akira]

This episode is a 10/10. Perfect episode. I honestly was bothered by 17 at first. But, people don't seem to understand that just because he lived, it doesn't mean his sacrifice was worthless. 17 still took it upon himself to give up his wish and sacrifice his life to save Goku and Vegeta and prove to himself that he wasn't just a machine; that he was human. Whether he lives or dies does not negate that or rewind said events. That's just not how it works. And there was no other perfect way than to have FREEZA save Goku. FREEZA! Take a step back and appreciate this greatness and how far we have come. This is the stuff of dreams (please no snarky remarks about dreams don't make sense. way ahead of you on that.). That scene with 17 and Freeza speaking with each other and powering up together and the quality of the voice work just gives me a feeling I can't describe. It's monumental.

The difference between Fairy Tail and other shounens with DB is that DB is allowed to do this because it created said tropes or at least made them its own and has worked it in its DNA like no other. In Fairy Tail, there is no spirituality or anything deep about how characters fight. they just get a power up nearly every time when they never had the power before. In DB, it's been something that not only is part of being able to push beyond your limits and tap into more power and their essence (derived from real stuff), but also from genes. It's not even executed or handled the same way as other shounen. So when I hear complaints like "omg fjsdfkdjsd emotion bs", I just really feel... nothing for you and hope you just drop the series and do something else... or whatever. DB has had characters getting stronger due to emotion for a long, LONG time. Super Saiyan.. Super Saiyan 2... Gohan having a power level lower than Kid Goku to getting more powerful than Raditz at 4 fucking years old when he started crying over Goku and getting angry he was getting hurt. So... get out of my face with these complaints LOL The narrative in the episode was on point and Jiren raised himself even more as a character(i don't care if you say it's a concept done before.. many are and they can still be good. I sure as hell haven't seen it done how DB does it; very understated until this episode and it was necessary). The whole emotion of this was just executed really well. "Though you will cease to exist, you will live on in my memories." Fucking spectacular and beautiful. Just seeing Jiren's RAW conflict and emotion. AGH! it was so good. I've watched this episode 4 times and will definitely watch it again soon.

Special mention to when Vegeta gets up and shouts, "GO KAKAROT! DEFEAT HIM FOR US!". So. GREAT. Can't say it enough. Oh, and i don't need to say anything about the art or animation or fighting. I think enough have said it. Episode is a masterpiece.

[Omniboy]

Self-proclaimed SUPER-Hero not a god/savior of mankind

Dude, savior is the exact same thing as hero. They're synonyms. Are you trying to say since they are different words, that means that Jiren and Pain are different in this regard, even though both words mean the same thing?

That’s why I said God/Savior of Mankind, its God Complex vs. Savior Complex one believes it as a right or destiny (Zamasu), the other a duty and oath (Jiren)

And Zamasu dosen't view what he doing as a duty? He legit says that what he is doing is the duty of the gods

"Listen, Saiyan. Listen, Son Goku. You are a mortal, yet you have gained power that surpasses even gods. You are the personification of the failure of the gods who created this universe. As such, by becoming one with Son Goku, I have taken on the sins of mortals and the failure of gods in this body! This is truly the duty of a god."

[TajinRice]

Why could they just leave well enough alone? 17 coming back was random as hell. He wasnt even the one who saved Goku. Freeza we all knew was in. Then oh bam 17s back too! Roshi should have died and 17 should have stayed dead. Whats the point of eliminating Toppo with no eliminations then to have the final battle be a 3 on 1 with 10 seconds left that some how will end up taking 15 minutes?

[Master Xar]

Dude, savior is the exact same thing as hero. They're synonyms. Are you trying to say since they are different words, that means that Jiren and Pain are different in this regard, even though both words mean the same thing?

That’s why I said God/Savior of Mankind, its God Complex vs. Savior Complex one believes it as a right or destiny (Zamasu), the other a duty and oath (Jiren)

And Zamasu dosen't view what he doing as a duty? He legit says that what he is doing is the duty of the gods

"Listen, Saiyan. Listen, Son Goku. You are a mortal, yet you have gained power that surpasses even gods. You are the personification of the failure of the gods who created this universe. As such, by becoming one with Son Goku, I have taken on the sins of mortals and the failure of gods in this body! This is truly the duty of a god."

Zamasu is kind of a mixture of both since he sees himself as a Martyr god, suffering for the sake of others in his eyes, so he himself is more of a 50/50 he sees it as his right as well as a god to do some of the things that he does, that’s why he assaults other gods because he thinks it as HIS right and duty alone to dictate how mortals live and die.