Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Pannaliciour » Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:26 am

My only complain about this episode is about no comments about mastering UI (zeno, grand priest Whis or Beerus) come on they all spoke when it wasn't needed and now a mortal reaches a state that a GoD can't reach that easily/are scared off, and they shut the fu.. up?!
But to be fair one thing Super is doing nice compare to Z is they have more fight WITHOUT constantly interrupting things. I know back in the days with Cell. Hercule had more screentime then anyone else. It can fu.. up a fight really good.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:42 am

Master Xar wrote: 2.) both those fights have Goku literally crippled or critically injured, I’ve never understood the idea the stamina can’t come back, us humans can run a full sprint and run out of stamina and take a 30s-1:00m break and come back fine, this is GOKU we’re talking about here...
Finally someone with some sense! It is how people cope doing marathons etc. Besides the fact this a cartoon and Goku is an alien.
sangofe wrote:What are you guys complaining about? Goku's friends always have been very important to him , especially since the daimaoh arc and out.

Exactly. Tell me how did Goku go SS on Namek again? According to people here it can't have been because his best friend died must have been because Goku was frustrated the Spirit Bomb died kill Freeza.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:05 am

So someone showed me some stills from the episode.

When Goku's running along Jiren's Ki blasts to punch him, HE PLACES KI BALLS ON HIS FEET TO USE AS FOOTING WHEN HE RUNS ON THE BEAMS!

Now THAT is some impressive attention to detail!

Here, I'll post them in spoilers for you guys:
[spoiler]Image
Image
Image
Image
Image[/spoiler]

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Super Saiyan Swagger » Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:12 am

Say what you will, but this will go down as one of the most memorable Dragon Ball episodes ever. Just look at these crowd reactions! I have never seen something like this before. People are losing their minds when they see Freeza and 17. It's such a great way to end the episode and it leaves people wanting more. I sure as hell cannot wait to see how #131 is going to unfold. The preview looks crazy.

A bunch of people went outside and watched this episode in the pouring rain on a 4:3 projector screen and still managed to get incredibly amped up by the stuff that happened in the episode. That is incredible.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by foxfang4 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:47 am

Super Saiyan Swagger wrote:Say what you will, but this will go down as one of the most memorable Dragon Ball episodes ever. Just look at these crowd reactions! I have never seen something like this before. People are losing their minds when they see Freeza and 17. It's such a great way to end the episode and it leaves people wanting more. I sure as hell cannot wait to see how #131 is going to unfold. The preview looks crazy.

A bunch of people went outside and watched this episode in the pouring rain on a 4:3 projector screen and still managed to get incredibly amped up by the stuff that happened in the episode. That is incredible.
I think the episode is generally getting universal praise. I also didn't like 1-2 things (generally, I find Jiren to be an uninspired antagonist). But overall, it was a spectacle the likes we've rarely seen.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Gig » Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:03 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:So someone showed me some stills from the episode.

When Goku's running along Jiren's Ki blasts to punch him, HE PLACES KI BALLS ON HIS FEET TO USE AS FOOTING WHEN HE RUNS ON THE BEAMS!

Now THAT is some impressive attention to detail!

Here, I'll post them in spoilers for you guys:
[spoiler]Image
Image
Image
Image
Image[/spoiler]
Yes, that's really cool! It's a shame that it's so fast be be almost unnoticeable...

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:05 am

Gig wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:So someone showed me some stills from the episode.

When Goku's running along Jiren's Ki blasts to punch him, HE PLACES KI BALLS ON HIS FEET TO USE AS FOOTING WHEN HE RUNS ON THE BEAMS!

Now THAT is some impressive attention to detail!

Here, I'll post them in spoilers for you guys:
[spoiler]Image
Image
Image
Image
Image[/spoiler]
Yes, that's really cool! It's a shame that it's so fast be be almost unnoticeable...
That's why we must watch it over and over again to catch everything! And also because it's just so damn good!

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Simere » Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:27 am

foxfang4 wrote:They complain because they interpreted the act as if that was the main reason why he defeated Jiren. Instead of just being his explanation for not giving up easily. Which is all it was. And my Japanese friend Yuzo told me that the subs were pretty off, especially during the Piccolo/Roshi/Krillin speech.
Even if that's all it was, Goku shouldn't be giving up in this fight. Especially not easily. Saying he's continuing to fight because people are hoping for him means that, if they weren't, he'd just lie down and die. You asked before what his motivations should be for getting up, and my answer is: that he can.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by jeffbr92 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:49 am

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:Exactly. Tell me how did Goku go SS on Namek again? According to people here it can't have been because his best friend died must have been because Goku was frustrated the Spirit Bomb died kill Freeza.
Don't know why people keep using this argument, Doctor. already explained:
Doctor. wrote:At this point, I'm not sure if you people are purposefully misreading what we're saying for the sake of starting an argument. That's not the point we're making. That's not the point anyone was making. We're talking about the way it was presented, in an over-the-top, melodramatic, kitsch way that has no place in Dragon Ball and is better suited to a series like Fairy Tail where these kinds of cheesy speeches give you nonsensical and arbitrary power-ups for the sake of the spectacle. Goku caring about his friends doesn't need to be verbalized and shoved down your throat because it was always very clear subtext.

And I can predict the response to be the "B-But Super Saiyan! Super Saiyan 2!" false equivalency and I, once again, respond that the difference is in subtlety and nuance.
Power levels are not just big numbers:

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Doctor. » Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:16 am

The Super Saiyan comparison is so ridiculous that I don't even know if some people are just desperate to defend Super that they'll throw the original series under the bus or if they legitimately can't remember what it was that made the original series so great to begin with.

Super Saiyan had been foreshadowed for half the arc by the point Goku transformed. Kuririn's death functioned as a trigger for a transformation, and the possibility of it happening had already been established way beforehand. Super Saiyan tells us two things: that the power-up wasn't arbitrary - it didn't happen just because Goku needed to win reaaaally badly; and that the transformation had negative consequences. Goku almost loses himself in rage and becomes an entirely different person. It wasn't an absurd, arbitrary power-up motivated by hope and trust and friendship that allowed Goku to turn the tables and win; it was a dangerous transformation that almost led to his death (and some will say "So did Ultra Instinct!" but I'm talking specifically about the power-up Goku received mid-fight after Kuririn motivated him, not the transformation itself). Going even further, compare the presentation of the two scenes. Kuririn's death was an emotional moment and you didn't get some melodramatic flashbacks reminiscing about their lives; you didn't have Gohan and Bulma narrating afterwards about how they're depositing all their hopes on Goku and how he's such a great guy and everyone loves him and trusts him and he didn't do nothing wrong ever in his life! The scene had an ominous tone, there was no dialogue outside of Goku's threats to Freeza, the atmosphere and music did the talking and the rest of the fight was permeated by a moral ambivalence in Goku's character. I guess some people don't get this, because they grew up with the Funimation dub which portrayed the scene as a more heroic turning point in the battle, rather than the dreadful and ominous turning point in Goku's character that it was.

In comparison, the power-up that Goku got whilst in Ultra Instinct was completely arbitrary. You will never see a power boost mid-transformation in the original series. Power boosts coming from emotion, in the original series, manifest themselves through a new transformation (literally only twice, and they had both been foreshadowed beforehand and their execution was phenomenal). Emotions don't manifest themselves in a power boost in the same form because that would be arbitrary and dumb. Comparing Super Saiyan to what happened here is a complete false equivalency. An apt comparison is the anime's version of the Kaioken x20 Kamehameha, which was likewise filled with a lot of flashbacks and a heroic speech fueled by emotions such as friendship, hope and trust. Guess what happened? It did jackshit to Freeza. It didn't allow him to turn the tables just for "MUH HYPE" or the spectacle. Freeza just flicked it away, as he rightfully should have. This is what I mean when people seemingly can't tell the difference in execution between the two series. Just because some things might be similar in Z and Super does not mean they were executed in the same fashion.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by kemuri07 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:56 am

Dude. You're awesome


I know it's hard to believe, but DBZ was an well written anime. It wasnt trying to be Evangelion, but people seem to have forgotten that, during the height of DB, Toriyama was a master storyteller. Super comes nowhere near the heights of Z. It is a lesser entry in every way.


Let me add that the 20x Kaioken moment works because DBZ made it a point that Goku actually does give a shit about his friends.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:02 am

kemuri07 wrote:Dude. You're awesome


I know it's hard to believe, but DBZ was an well written anime. It wasnt trying to be Evangelion, but people seem to have forgotten that, during the height of DB, Toriyama was a master storyteller. Super comes nowhere near the heights of Z. It is a lesser entry in every way.


Let me add that the 20x Kaioken moment works because DBZ made it a point that Goku actually does give a shit about his friends.
I don't know, man......

I'm finding a lot more character and charm to the interactions between the cast we grew to love/hate in this series than in "Z", more in line with the original series. The martial arts focus and elements of mysticism have also been quite the boon. I think "Super" is more than a worthy successor, though I do understand I'm in the minority, especially around here, and that folks will try and tell me that I'm objectively wrong about this.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by kemuri07 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:35 am

Lol

I'll certainly will be one to tell you you're objectively wrong. :)

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by foxfang4 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:48 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
kemuri07 wrote:Dude. You're awesome


I know it's hard to believe, but DBZ was an well written anime. It wasnt trying to be Evangelion, but people seem to have forgotten that, during the height of DB, Toriyama was a master storyteller. Super comes nowhere near the heights of Z. It is a lesser entry in every way.


Let me add that the 20x Kaioken moment works because DBZ made it a point that Goku actually does give a shit about his friends.
I don't know, man......

I'm finding a lot more character and charm to the interactions between the cast we grew to love/hate in this series than in "Z", more in line with the original series. The martial arts focus and elements of mysticism have also been quite the boon. I think "Super" is more than a worthy successor, though I do understand I'm in the minority, especially around here, and that folks will try and tell me that I'm objectively wrong about this.
Don't worry about belittling your opinion for people on this forum. I've been all over the net (tons of forums, twitter, reaction vids), and believe me the few on this thread whining are in the vast minority. Not the other way around. The episodes is being lauded for being groundbreaking and fans loved it. You should have seen the kids at my school this morning. To them, this was what "SSJ2" was for my generation.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)narr

Post by Cipher » Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:14 pm

Doctor. wrote:The Super Saiyan comparison is so ridiculous that I don't even know if some people are just desperate to defend Super that they'll throw the original series under the bus or if they legitimately can't remember what it was that made the original series so great to begin with.

Super Saiyan had been foreshadowed for half the arc by the point Goku transformed. Kuririn's death functioned as a trigger for a transformation, and the possibility of it happening had already been established way beforehand. Super Saiyan tells us two things: that the power-up wasn't arbitrary - it didn't happen just because Goku needed to win reaaaally badly; and that the transformation had negative consequences. Goku almost loses himself in rage and becomes an entirely different person. It wasn't an absurd, arbitrary power-up motivated by hope and trust and friendship that allowed Goku to turn the tables and win; it was a dangerous transformation that almost led to his death (and some will say "So did Ultra Instinct!" but I'm talking specifically about the power-up Goku received mid-fight after Kuririn motivated him, not the transformation itself). Going even further, compare the presentation of the two scenes. Kuririn's death was an emotional moment and you didn't get some melodramatic flashbacks reminiscing about their lives; you didn't have Gohan and Bulma narrating afterwards about how they're depositing all their hopes on Goku and how he's such a great guy and everyone loves him and trusts him and he didn't do nothing wrong ever in his life! The scene had an ominous tone, there was no dialogue outside of Goku's threats to Freeza, the atmosphere and music did the talking and the rest of the fight was permeated by a moral ambivalence in Goku's character. I guess some people don't get this, because they grew up with the Funimation dub which portrayed the scene as a more heroic turning point in the battle, rather than the dreadful and ominous turning point in Goku's character that it was.

In comparison, the power-up that Goku got whilst in Ultra Instinct was completely arbitrary. You will never see a power boost mid-transformation in the original series. Power boosts coming from emotion, in the original series, manifest themselves through a new transformation (literally only twice, and they had both been foreshadowed beforehand and their execution was phenomenal). Emotions don't manifest themselves in a power boost in the same form because that would be arbitrary and dumb. Comparing Super Saiyan to what happened here is a complete false equivalency. An apt comparison is the anime's version of the Kaioken x20 Kamehameha, which was likewise filled with a lot of flashbacks and a heroic speech fueled by emotions such as friendship, hope and trust. Guess what happened? It did jackshit to Freeza. It didn't allow him to turn the tables just for "MUH HYPE" or the spectacle. Freeza just flicked it away, as he rightfully should have. This is what I mean when people seemingly can't tell the difference in execution between the two series. Just because some things might be similar in Z and Super does not mean they were executed in the same fashion.
Incredible. On at least two accounts. One: I agree with Doctor.. Two: I expected I might be alone coming into this thread to voice dissatisfaction with this rather saccharine, subtext-into-text, One Piece-esque moment slipping into the climax, but here it is already given excellent and thorough voice.

On the one hand, yes, you can argue such a moment fits, as Toriyama's stories nearly always involve selfish weirdos who don't grow morally, but do gain new bonds. On the other, since he tends to keep his character-writing sincere regardless of how heightened, how comedic, bizarre, or over-the-top his narratives and worlds are, it's rarely if ever vocalized in such a way. In premise, companions marking the difference between Jiren's strength and Goku's is fine material for a finale. In execution, for all the reasons Doctor. mentioned, it speaks to the volume of the disconnect that still seems to exist between Toriyama and Toei's approach to the material on a scripting level. It's unsurprising, but minorly disappointing.

As for the rest of the episode, yeah, it looks amazing, and it's good flashy fun, but we're also robbed of Toriyama's penchant for really punctuating climactic fights with both memorable choreography and character beats (something I still think is most successfully captured in the Super anime by the entirety of the Goku-Kale-Caulifla-Kafla fight). With little to grab onto in terms of theme, characterization, or specific action beats, even something that looks this stellar has leaves me high and dry for a climax. I wouldn't look anyone in the eye and tell them this is a bad episode, but as a series climax and this being as good as it gets, it's emblematic of a lot of Super's flaws (nearly all that aren't animation or art-based).
Last edited by Cipher on Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:19 pm

Decided to rewatch the episode (again) to see what the big complaints about Goku beating Jiren using the "Power Of Friendship" was really all about and all I saw was (Mastered) Ultra Instinct Goku fighting a powered up Jiren evenly until he won in the end. Even if Goku became stronger from his realizing how much everyone was counting on him to win, you sure as hell wouldn't have been able to tell with how the fight progressed after the whole "This is who Goku is" montage.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Cipher » Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:21 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:Decided to rewatch the episode (again) to see what the big complaints about Goku beating Jiren using the "Power Of Friendship" was really all about and all I saw was (Mastered) Ultra Instinct Goku fighting a powered up Jiren evenly until he won in the end. Even if Goku became stronger from his realizing how much everyone was counting on him to win, you sure as hell wouldn't have been able to tell with how the fight progressed after the whole "This is who Goku is" montage.
I don't specifically connect the montage and the "I'm not a hero but don't hurt my friends!" moment to a power-up. I just dislike that they're in there, as written, at all.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:32 pm

For those complaining about the choreography, the images I posted a few posts ago should make it clear that there's some GREAT choreography, it's just that it happens SO GODDAMN FAST that we can't even catch it!

Shida is an absolute MONSTER.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by GreatSaiyaJeff » Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:10 pm

Loved this episode, the fight, the animation and the character development for both Goku and Jiren. It was great! Although I am mixed on 17, I mean it was great he survived but at the same time it kind of takes away his emotional sacrifice.
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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:22 pm

Cipher wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:Decided to rewatch the episode (again) to see what the big complaints about Goku beating Jiren using the "Power Of Friendship" was really all about and all I saw was (Mastered) Ultra Instinct Goku fighting a powered up Jiren evenly until he won in the end. Even if Goku became stronger from his realizing how much everyone was counting on him to win, you sure as hell wouldn't have been able to tell with how the fight progressed after the whole "This is who Goku is" montage.
I don't specifically connect the montage and the "I'm not a hero but don't hurt my friends!" moment to a power-up. I just dislike that they're in there, as written, at all.
I'm not making this comment to you Cipher, but I've seen people make the distinction that Goku only won the battle against Jiren how much he values the safety of his comrades, which I find a very disingenuous statement to make given the context of the battle between Goku and Jiren in the episode.

I also don't find anything particularly offensive with Goku expressing his resolve, especially in a battle that determines the fate of his universe, or the 20 second montage of how much Goku has had an effect on people. It's not something that happens in Dragon Ball a lot, but I don't find that inherently a bad thing just because of it being out of Dragon Ball's "comfort zone" when it comes to storytelling. It was an offensive but needlessly saccharine and sentimental moment at worst and a heartwarming introspective to the significance of Goku's characterization in-universe at best. It's barely anything to bet stressed over or something that need close examination and dissection. It was a cute little moment that had no real bearing on the plot and that was all it really wanted to be.

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