Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Master Xar » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:17 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Master Xar wrote: 2.) both those fights have Goku literally crippled or critically injured, I’ve never understood the idea the stamina can’t come back, us humans can run a full sprint and run out of stamina and take a 30s-1:00m break and come back fine, this is GOKU we’re talking about here...
Finally someone with some sense! It is how people cope doing marathons etc. Besides the fact this a cartoon and Goku is an alien.
sangofe wrote:What are you guys complaining about? Goku's friends always have been very important to him , especially since the daimaoh arc and out.

Exactly. Tell me how did Goku go SS on Namek again? According to people here it can't have been because his best friend died must have been because Goku was frustrated the Spirit Bomb died kill Freeza.
Yeah I never understood that either, as much as people want to disconnect Z’s problems from Super’s it’s THERE, didn’t see people complain when Goku completely recovered from the Kaioken x20 tapping him out, and being good for the Spirit Bomb AND continuing to fight as SSJ. In fact there haven’t really been any situations in Z where they have had a really hard time recovering at all unless they were bleeding out or critically injured or having a friggin heart disease.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Master Xar » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:19 pm

kemuri07 wrote:Lol

I'll certainly will be one to tell you you're objectively wrong. :)
... is there a time when you’re NOT being absolutely condescending? Just asking.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by kemuri07 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:21 pm

foxfang4 wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
kemuri07 wrote:Dude. You're awesome


I know it's hard to believe, but DBZ was an well written anime. It wasnt trying to be Evangelion, but people seem to have forgotten that, during the height of DB, Toriyama was a master storyteller. Super comes nowhere near the heights of Z. It is a lesser entry in every way.


Let me add that the 20x Kaioken moment works because DBZ made it a point that Goku actually does give a shit about his friends.
I don't know, man......

I'm finding a lot more character and charm to the interactions between the cast we grew to love/hate in this series than in "Z", more in line with the original series. The martial arts focus and elements of mysticism have also been quite the boon. I think "Super" is more than a worthy successor, though I do understand I'm in the minority, especially around here, and that folks will try and tell me that I'm objectively wrong about this.
Don't worry about belittling your opinion for people on this forum. I've been all over the net (tons of forums, twitter, reaction vids), and believe me the few on this thread whining are in the vast minority. Not the other way around. The episodes is being lauded for being groundbreaking and fans loved it. You should have seen the kids at my school this morning. To them, this was what "SSJ2" was for my generation.
Please, tell us how It was "groundbreaking"

Because it had decent fight animation.

*mind blown*



Jeez some of you guys are easy please.

I don't have a problem with people liking this episode, again I totally get from a spectacle standpoint, it's fine. It's the constant shitting on DBZ just to prop up Super. That pisses me off.
Master Xar wrote:
kemuri07 wrote:Lol

I'll certainly will be one to tell you you're objectively wrong. :)
... is there a time when you’re NOT being absolutely condescending? Just asking.
Honestly? Probably not.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by CriticalThinker » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:55 pm

Went back and watched the episode again and I still think the art and animation was great but my stance on the writing of the episode didn't improve. Though like I said before outside of a couple of episodes, this arc has been poorly written. Don't think I really need to go over the problems with the writing of this episode since other users have explained it much better than I ever could. Guess what I wanted to add is that while this was easily the best animated fight in Super and had top notch art, I still don't care much for the fight. Fights like Hit vs Dyspo or Goku vs Caulifla and Kale/Kefla, Toppo vs Freeza and 17, Gohan vs Obuni, weren't nearly as well animated or had as great art and yet I enjoyed those fights far more. Hell this probably because of my bias but I even enjoyed 18 vs Ribrianne more than this fight. Mainly due to myself being far more interested and invested in those characters than I am with Jiren. It's just only last episode that I finally start to become a bit interested in him but at this point it's to late since the show ends next episode. Of the stoic bald badasses that were introduced in Super I still think Hit was handled far better than Jiren ever was.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Simere » Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:00 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:It was an offensive but needlessly saccharine and sentimental moment at worst and a heartwarming introspective to the significance of Goku's characterization in-universe at best. It's barely anything to bet stressed over or something that need close examination and dissection. It was a cute little moment that had no real bearing on the plot and that was all it really wanted to be.
It wasn't a moment; almost the entire second half was framed by the dueling philosophies, and that battle of ideology has become the centerpoint of Jiren's character. Knowing how much you engage in analyzing DB I don't see how you can call this ignorable.

The significance to Goku's characterization would be the "at worst" portion for me. Has a detrimental impact.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:13 pm

Simere wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:It was an offensive but needlessly saccharine and sentimental moment at worst and a heartwarming introspective to the significance of Goku's characterization in-universe at best. It's barely anything to bet stressed over or something that need close examination and dissection. It was a cute little moment that had no real bearing on the plot and that was all it really wanted to be.
It wasn't a moment; almost the entire second half was framed by the dueling philosophies, and that battle of ideology has become the centerpoint of Jiren's character. Knowing how much you engage in analyzing DB I don't see how you can call this ignorable.

The significance to Goku's characterization would be the "at worst" portion for me. Has a detrimental impact.
I'm still not seeing how, exactly.

In a critical period, Son Goku relies on the support of his friends and allies to keep him going despite constant battle, damage, and fatigue; Goku keeps going because of his allies. Jiren, however? He keeps going in spite of them, and ultimately is defeated when he tries to prove his point is superior; the presence of Goku's allies and friends spurs him into fighting with greater resolve than he otherwise could.

We can do this dance as often as anyone wants, but we're never gonna fully budge from our own positions because we're simply seeing and feeling different things.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by PsionicWarrior » Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:40 pm

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES

Given the unstable foundations of this arc, I think we couldn't get a better episode than this one.

Animation was excellent, maybe never seen in whole DB. We have had better fights in Z imo (Goku/Cell, Goku/Vegeta...) but here was another level.
It was pure epicness!! Goku sliding against Jiren with the small Kamehamehas... omg that was absolutely amazing. Both Jiren and Goku really went at each other, at the end of their lives, they were really savage, exactly what I want to see in this series. Their speed and punches were palpable. Goku giving the huge punch to Jiren will get remembered through time no doubt. Fantastic direction all around.

Story-telling was nothing exceptional and a bit heavy on the friendship but it worked wonders. It not only made sense in regard of the episode but also in regard of Dragon Ball. It was nice to formulate clearly what Goku was representing to his friends, as most his old foes. And the contrast with Jiren who at the opposite rejected others.
Jiren losing it was great imo. We could see his motivation to become stronger was weak in comparison of Goku's one growing stronger with the people he met through his life. Direction showed us Goku was dominating Jiren on ideological level and that was very strong. For sure all this is a bit cliché but the symbolic worked, the scene worked, nothing negative to say here. It's not about logic, but impact. Anyway there was no reason to eliminate Jiren since Goku saved them. Maybe crucial scene in the fight.

Now Freeza. We were all wondering where he was and bam! We see 17. Didn't see that one coming like at all. I was surprised in the good way. 17 really feels to me like the mvp of ToP.
And Goku with the UI breaking hohoho, I am sure EVERYONE thought it was Freeza, I certainly thought for sure it was Freeza, well no. :clap:

So yet again but not often enough, Toei showed they are PERFECTLY capable of doing some great Dragon Ball. Just why did they not make -well I know all would be impossible- but more episodes at least half as good as this one. Super would have been the best series of all universe (with better story ofc).

I'm still sad about all the bad episodes of this arc, nevertheless happy that I could really spend a wonderful time with this episode. Only problem of the episode were previous episodes to build up an even stronhger climax.
To me this episode was exactly what I would have like Super to be as a whole. Damn you, Toei!!

I'm much looking forward to see 131.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Simere » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:14 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Simere wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:It was an offensive but needlessly saccharine and sentimental moment at worst and a heartwarming introspective to the significance of Goku's characterization in-universe at best. It's barely anything to bet stressed over or something that need close examination and dissection. It was a cute little moment that had no real bearing on the plot and that was all it really wanted to be.
It wasn't a moment; almost the entire second half was framed by the dueling philosophies, and that battle of ideology has become the centerpoint of Jiren's character. Knowing how much you engage in analyzing DB I don't see how you can call this ignorable.

The significance to Goku's characterization would be the "at worst" portion for me. Has a detrimental impact.
I'm still not seeing how, exactly.

In a critical period, Son Goku relies on the support of his friends and allies to keep him going despite constant battle, damage, and fatigue; Goku keeps going because of his allies. Jiren, however? He keeps going in spite of them, and ultimately is defeated when he tries to prove his point is superior; the presence of Goku's allies and friends spurs him into fighting with greater resolve than he otherwise could.
Just what you said is how. When it's said that Goku is only continuing to fight because of his friends, what's simultaneously being said is that if he didn't have that motivation he would stop fighting. I don't think that's who Goku is; I don't think that's the "greater resolve" he possesses. Letting even extreme fatigue and damage keep him down when he still has something in him to give in a fight he wants to fight? That sounds completely wrong to me, and it's my favorite part of his character so it doesn't sit right.

It's an extension of my favorite part of his character, anyway. I think that resolve derives from his purity, which is on full display in his fight against Piccolo. Arms broken, legs broken, a gaping wound in his chest that was repeatedly stomped on — still stayed true to his own desire to not only keep fighting, but to fight on his own terms. That purity is what drew in his opponents. Not...whatever this episode was saying.

It's been several pages since I've said this, so I want to mention it again: I did like the episode by the end. It was just from the moment Goku struggled to stand, to saying "This is our power!" that had me bothered. Jiren attacking the stands was satisfying in many ways, and Goku's reaction was in keeping with what I expect out of him.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:27 pm

Simere wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Simere wrote: It wasn't a moment; almost the entire second half was framed by the dueling philosophies, and that battle of ideology has become the centerpoint of Jiren's character. Knowing how much you engage in analyzing DB I don't see how you can call this ignorable.

The significance to Goku's characterization would be the "at worst" portion for me. Has a detrimental impact.
I'm still not seeing how, exactly.

In a critical period, Son Goku relies on the support of his friends and allies to keep him going despite constant battle, damage, and fatigue; Goku keeps going because of his allies. Jiren, however? He keeps going in spite of them, and ultimately is defeated when he tries to prove his point is superior; the presence of Goku's allies and friends spurs him into fighting with greater resolve than he otherwise could.
Just what you said is how. When it's said that Goku is only continuing to fight because of his friends, what's simultaneously being said is that if he didn't have that motivation he would stop fighting. I don't think that's who Goku is; I don't think that's the "greater resolve" he possesses. Letting even extreme fatigue and damage keep him down when he still has something in him to give in a fight he wants to fight? That sounds completely wrong to me, and it's my favorite part of his character so it doesn't sit right.

It's an extension of my favorite part of his character, anyway. I think that resolve derives from his purity, which is on full display in his fight against Piccolo. Arms broken, legs broken, a gaping wound in his chest that was repeatedly stomped on — still stayed true to his own desire to not only keep fighting, but to fight on his own terms. That purity is what drew in his opponents. Not...whatever this episode was saying.

It's been several pages since I've said this, so I want to mention it again: I did like the episode by the end. It was just from the moment Goku struggled to stand, to saying "This is our power!" that had me bothered. Jiren attacking the stands was satisfying in many ways, and Goku's reaction was in keeping with what I expect out of him.
I never said "only". That's the key word people keep using that folks like myself are keen on avoiding using.

We don't think that Goku is "only" still going because of his friends, we think that Goku is simply still going "for" his friends. At the end of the day, he might be a fight junkie, but he definitely cares for the friends he's made and cannot stand the thought of innocents being hurt.

Plus, in a sense, it IS "their" power. Goku only unlocked the Ultra Instinct thanks to his own power AND that of his friends colliding in a struggle that allowed him to break the shell of his limits. In critical moments, Goku finds strength in his friends when he can't rely solely on his own power, and Jiren can't see this. He wonders how this is possible, and Goku shows him via words at first and then actions.

I personally like this highlighting, as it helps showcase Goku as a balanced individual who can focus on the fight at hand AND fight selflessly for those he cares about. I personally can't empathize with your interpretation, but I can see how you'd come to it. Really, that's the gist of everything in these discussions.

We can't see how others can possibly think [X] in [Y] manner. I do it, you do it, we all do it.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:39 pm

Simere wrote:It's been several pages since I've said this, so I want to mention it again: I did like the episode by the end. It was just from the moment Goku struggled to stand, to saying "This is our power!" that had me bothered. Jiren attacking the stands was satisfying in many ways, and Goku's reaction was in keeping with what I expect out of him.
I don't mind that line at all because context of it isn't entirely unfounded. The third wind Goku needed to attain Ultra Instinct was fueled by him thinking of his friends and family. And had he not unlocked Ultra Instinct when he did, Jiren would have beaten him. So as much as Goku initially attained Ultra Instinct through his own sheer willpower, the subconscious reminder of the people who rely on Goku to save their universe was the spark the ignited the flame for Goku regaining Ultra Instinct and it eventually leading to him mastering the form. So contextually speaking, Goku isn't necessarily in the wrong for declaring Ultra Instinct as "our power".

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Doctor. » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:51 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
Simere wrote:It's been several pages since I've said this, so I want to mention it again: I did like the episode by the end. It was just from the moment Goku struggled to stand, to saying "This is our power!" that had me bothered. Jiren attacking the stands was satisfying in many ways, and Goku's reaction was in keeping with what I expect out of him.
I don't mind that line at all because context of it isn't entirely unfounded. The third wind Goku needed to attain Ultra Instinct was fueled by him thinking of his friends and family. And had he not unlocked Ultra Instinct when he did, Jiren would have beaten him. So as much as Goku initially attained Ultra Instinct through his own sheer willpower, the subconscious reminder of the people who rely on Goku to save their universe was the spark the ignited the flame for Goku regaining Ultra Instinct and it eventually leading to him mastering the form. So contextually speaking, Goku isn't necessarily in the wrong for declaring Ultra Instinct as "our power".
Whether or not you think the scene was fine, you have to admit that it's completely dissonant in comparison to how Whis explained UI functioned last episode. A form that works because you've cleansed your mind of all thought can't be juxtaposed with a theme of Goku fighting harder because he's thinking about his friends.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Simere » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:56 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:I never said "only". That's the key word people keep using that folks like myself are keen on avoiding using.

We don't think that Goku is "only" still going because of his friends, we think that Goku is simply still going "for" his friends. At the end of the day, he might be a fight junkie, but he definitely cares for the friends he's made and cannot stand the thought of innocents being hurt.
Well, I didn't mean you said it — the episode said it. You have to imagine something else was meant other than what was said. Which I'm perfectly happy to do, and surely am, but I'd rather I didn't have to.
Plus, in a sense, it IS "their" power. Goku only unlocked the Ultra Instinct thanks to his own power AND that of his friends colliding in a struggle that allowed him to break the shell of his limits.
That gets into my issue on conflicting themes. Goku truly unlocked Ultra Instinct by forgetting about all of that, or rather, not focusing on it. Go look at Whis's speech again, it's exactly the purity I'm talking about. What happened to that?
In critical moments, Goku finds strength in his friends when he can't rely solely on his own power, and Jiren can't see this. He wonders how this is possible, and Goku shows him via words at first and then actions.
Hopefully later I can elaborate how even in the best possible light the message rings completely hollow. Jiren is right about this, and I hate that the show tries to pretend he's wrong. I'm a strong believer in the power of love, you know, but its power is not in fighting. Jiren's whole problem is that he's expecting love to do something it can't. The lesson the show is trying to teach will only lead to further disillusionment.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Asura » Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:00 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
Simere wrote:It's been several pages since I've said this, so I want to mention it again: I did like the episode by the end. It was just from the moment Goku struggled to stand, to saying "This is our power!" that had me bothered. Jiren attacking the stands was satisfying in many ways, and Goku's reaction was in keeping with what I expect out of him.
I don't mind that line at all because context of it isn't entirely unfounded. The third wind Goku needed to attain Ultra Instinct was fueled by him thinking of his friends and family. And had he not unlocked Ultra Instinct when he did, Jiren would have beaten him. So as much as Goku initially attained Ultra Instinct through his own sheer willpower, the subconscious reminder of the people who rely on Goku to save their universe was the spark the ignited the flame for Goku regaining Ultra Instinct and it eventually leading to him mastering the form. So contextually speaking, Goku isn't necessarily in the wrong for declaring Ultra Instinct as "our power".
Yes, agreed, but I'd also like to add that Goku would not be here today without the support of his friends and allies, and I think that's where Piccolo/Roshi was going with this. Goku will always keep getting back up to fight for his friends. Some people think that's new, groundbreaking stuff for his character, but I don't see how. He's a selfish dude who likes to fight but he cares about his friends and family and he's always fighting for them too. "This is our power" seems fine to me when coming right off of this monologue in which Roshi basically word for word says that Goku picks them up, and they pick up Goku.

As you also pointed out before, it's not like Goku dramatically gets much more powerful after his "friendship speech", it was just morale to help put him back in the fight and in turn it makes him slightly more powerful. Jiren gets all of his strength and power from himself, not anyone else. He lived his whole life and got as strong as he did mostly by himself. In contrast, Goku had the help of his friends to help get him to where he is now. If Jiren gets a powerup for thinking about his ideals and the reason for why he fights, then I don't see why Goku can't get the same thing. It's not the "power of friendship", it's just a reminder of what they're both fighting for.
Doctor. wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
Simere wrote:It's been several pages since I've said this, so I want to mention it again: I did like the episode by the end. It was just from the moment Goku struggled to stand, to saying "This is our power!" that had me bothered. Jiren attacking the stands was satisfying in many ways, and Goku's reaction was in keeping with what I expect out of him.
I don't mind that line at all because context of it isn't entirely unfounded. The third wind Goku needed to attain Ultra Instinct was fueled by him thinking of his friends and family. And had he not unlocked Ultra Instinct when he did, Jiren would have beaten him. So as much as Goku initially attained Ultra Instinct through his own sheer willpower, the subconscious reminder of the people who rely on Goku to save their universe was the spark the ignited the flame for Goku regaining Ultra Instinct and it eventually leading to him mastering the form. So contextually speaking, Goku isn't necessarily in the wrong for declaring Ultra Instinct as "our power".
Whether or not you think the scene was fine, you have to admit that it's completely dissonant in comparison to how Whis explained UI functioned last episode. A form that works because you've cleansed your mind of all thought can't be juxtaposed with a theme of Goku fighting harder because he's thinking about his friends.
It's a form that works because he's cleansed his mind of all thoughts of the battle, but not of everything completely. Goku transforms in 128 partly because of thinking about how much everyone is depending on him. Same thing happens here, only it results in a boost of power. There's nothing inconsistent about it.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Mister_Popo » Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:04 pm

And there are still places where the animation in this episode was seen like mediocore, inconsistent and the first part before break was 'off'.

Can you believe that with this level of animation, what are those guys expecting?

There is audience for whom Super always will be shit, no matter what they'll do to improve.
Last edited by Mister_Popo on Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Doctor. » Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:10 pm

Asura wrote:There's nothing inconsistent about it.
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

The implication is clear. Complete focus on the battle and disregard for outside factors (such as the 'erasure of the universe') is what allowed Goku to master Ultra Instinct to begin with. His friends are outside factors.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by prince212 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:20 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Asura wrote:There's nothing inconsistent about it.
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

The implication is clear. Complete focus on the battle and disregard for outside factors (such as the 'erasure of the universe') is what allowed Goku to master Ultra Instinct to begin with. His friends are outside factors.
So , is Goku fighting in ultra instinct and thinking about his friend at the same time or when he lost ultra instinct he thought about his friends and then concentrate to clean his mind ?
It was as if a whole lot of people ...were screaming in pain....

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by foxfang4 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:24 pm

It seems a lot of people here think they really know how Goku is. That Goku simply doesn't give up based on his own love for battle. When has this been the case? The biggest moment of Goku "giving up" was when he realized he couldn't beat Cell. But his "giving up" was actually part of his plan to bring in Gohan after he had studied Cell fighting. Goku's 2nd or 3rd winds due to friends/family/Saiyan pride have been a constant in all of Dragon Ball.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Master Xar » Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:25 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Asura wrote:There's nothing inconsistent about it.
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

The implication is clear. Complete focus on the battle and disregard for outside factors (such as the 'erasure of the universe') is what allowed Goku to master Ultra Instinct to begin with. His friends are outside factors.
That was the original UI, MUI Goku seems far more conscious and aware of his surroundings, Whis and the Angels have UI passively so MUI seems more conscious and aware.

Plus you can interpret that scene as that he physically or mentally is focused only on the fight not emotionally, because even earlier UI Goku seems to have some emotional attachment to things just not hesitation, fear, etc. like Whis said.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Bullza » Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:43 pm

Look at the swarm of people here watching it in the middle of the city. It says 10,000 people showed up.

https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/intere ... ca/.129206

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by TheOtherDude » Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:49 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Master Xar wrote: 2.) both those fights have Goku literally crippled or critically injured, I’ve never understood the idea the stamina can’t come back, us humans can run a full sprint and run out of stamina and take a 30s-1:00m break and come back fine, this is GOKU we’re talking about here...
Finally someone with some sense! It is how people cope doing marathons etc. Besides the fact this a cartoon and Goku is an alien.
sangofe wrote:What are you guys complaining about? Goku's friends always have been very important to him , especially since the daimaoh arc and out.

Exactly. Tell me how did Goku go SS on Namek again? According to people here it can't have been because his best friend died must have been because Goku was frustrated the Spirit Bomb died kill Freeza.
Marathons aren’t a good example. You essentially go at somewhat of a consistent pace. I think you meant something like High Intensity Cardio where you go hard for a certain amount of time and take breaks in between.

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