Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

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TheUltimateNinja
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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:18 pm

Nero<>Akira wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:What I'm most upset about is that this episode turned UI into a joke. """""""Mastered""""""" UI Goku wasn't dodging shit for most of the fight. I knew UI would get devalued eventually but I wasn't expecting it to happen so soon.
Because Jiren is that powerful LOL Goku was dodging damn near every single shot Jiren tried to give him after Jiren tried to kill everyone in the bench.
That's just because he was overwhelming Jiren thanks to Nakama power.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Android350 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:19 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
TheRed259 wrote:Jiren is trying to kill Krillin and the others and the Zenos do absolutely nothing...
Well, no outside help is the rule. Nobody ever said anything about killing the potential outside help :P
well killing is forbidden...

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Nero<>Akira » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:51 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:
Nero<>Akira wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:What I'm most upset about is that this episode turned UI into a joke. """""""Mastered""""""" UI Goku wasn't dodging shit for most of the fight. I knew UI would get devalued eventually but I wasn't expecting it to happen so soon.
Because Jiren is that powerful LOL Goku was dodging damn near every single shot Jiren tried to give him after Jiren tried to kill everyone in the bench.
That's just because he was overwhelming Jiren thanks to Nakama power.
No. LOL Goku was dodging nearly every single shot Jiren ever gave him. Ultra Instinct works. But let me ask you.... you think Freeza would lose to a farmer with a shotgun at ultra instinct? I bet the answer is no. Ultra Instinct is not a magical power up that cannot be defeated. If you are strong enough, you will win. You think The Grand Priest would lose to mastered ultra instinct Goku? lol please.
Zamasu is the best DB villain besides Freeza (and this is only the case because the current Super arc elevated Freeza to be that good).

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Asura » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:54 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:What I'm most upset about is that this episode turned UI into a joke. """""""Mastered""""""" UI Goku wasn't dodging shit for most of the fight. I knew UI would get devalued eventually but I wasn't expecting it to happen so soon.
I've seen this complaint a few times and it's baffling to me. Goku gets hit a grand total of three times by non-ki blasts in the entirety of the fight. The vast, vast, vast majority of time he is dodging. You really need to go back and watch the fight again if you think he "wasn't dodging shit for most of the fight" because that's so ridiculously far from true.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Nero<>Akira » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:57 pm

Asura wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:What I'm most upset about is that this episode turned UI into a joke. """""""Mastered""""""" UI Goku wasn't dodging shit for most of the fight. I knew UI would get devalued eventually but I wasn't expecting it to happen so soon.
I've seen this complaint a few times and it's baffling to me. Goku gets hit a grand total of three times by non-ki blasts in the entirety of the fight. The vast, vast, vast majority of time he is dodging. You really need to go back and watch the fight again if you think he "wasn't dodging shit for most of the fight" because that's so ridiculously far from true.
LOL exactly.
Zamasu is the best DB villain besides Freeza (and this is only the case because the current Super arc elevated Freeza to be that good).

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Draconic » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:58 pm

Asura wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:What I'm most upset about is that this episode turned UI into a joke. """""""Mastered""""""" UI Goku wasn't dodging shit for most of the fight. I knew UI would get devalued eventually but I wasn't expecting it to happen so soon.
I've seen this complaint a few times and it's baffling to me. Goku gets hit a grand total of three times by non-ki blasts in the entirety of the fight. The vast, vast, vast majority of time he is dodging. You really need to go back and watch the fight again if you think he "wasn't dodging shit for most of the fight" because that's so ridiculously far from true.
Only the Ki blast sliding between Jiren's blasts should be enough to prove UI is the real deal. I don't see Goku, even with his battle smarts and talent, being able to do that prior to this. And that's one scene!
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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:42 pm

Draconic wrote:
Asura wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:What I'm most upset about is that this episode turned UI into a joke. """""""Mastered""""""" UI Goku wasn't dodging shit for most of the fight. I knew UI would get devalued eventually but I wasn't expecting it to happen so soon.
I've seen this complaint a few times and it's baffling to me. Goku gets hit a grand total of three times by non-ki blasts in the entirety of the fight. The vast, vast, vast majority of time he is dodging. You really need to go back and watch the fight again if you think he "wasn't dodging shit for most of the fight" because that's so ridiculously far from true.
Only the Ki blast sliding between Jiren's blasts should be enough to prove UI is the real deal. I don't see Goku, even with his battle smarts and talent, being able to do that prior to this. And that's one scene!
And it happened so goddamn fast that even we the audience didn't catch it!

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by SuperCyan2 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:43 pm

So, I watched episode 130 or tried to (it was really dull so I didn't bother to watch till the end).

[130]

The Good:

- Its animation looked freaking fantastic and the motion blur made it look even better, when Jiren became "Super Kid Boo" that was kinda cool, the 2nd DB Super opening sounds really good and Masako still has what it takes to voice the Son family. :)

The Mediocrity:

- Sumitomo's score in this episode reminded me of his tunes from DRAGON BALL KAI THE FINAL CHAPTERS and that's not exactly a good thing, it sounded okay and serviceable but not great. It sounded fitting for a video game rather than an anime series, that's the point I'm making on this.

The Bad:

- The constant "power, power, power!" complaining of Jiren really bored me the hell out and the fight itself wasn't very interesting, plus the character Jiren just looks dreadful to me which has always made me wonder what the f!ck people see on Jiren. Besides his "OMG POWER!".

[/130]

I guess Super is more suitable for newbie fans because whenever I think and compare Super to Z, it always pales in comparison.
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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Son Gara » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:35 pm

Animation-wise: The best I've seen from a Super episode and definitely in the top tier of the whole series.

Other thoughts: Was surprised to see that 17 was still there, but glad he was. He is definitely the MVP of this tournament, and while I never really cared for him before, he has become one of my favorite characters. Will be interesting to see how him and Freeza fare against a full-powered Jiren. Also from the last clip from the NEP, it looks like Goku is back up. Wonder if that has something to do with that "ace in the hole" he mentioned?
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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Asura » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:45 pm

SuperCyan2 wrote:So, I watched episode 130 or tried to (it was really dull so I didn't bother to watch till the end).
I almost have a hard time believing there are people out there like yourself who actually found the episode so dull that they couldn't finish it, that's just bizarre. I don't see how even the most diehard Super haters can call this episode dull.

It quite literally is the best animated episode in the entire franchise. It's even better than the RoF movie, how can you consider it dull? I can understand not liking the narrative context of the episode, but from a purely "shut your brain off and watch" point of view it should make everyone excited to watch.

I'd venture to bet even the most vocal complainers in this thread found the episode to be anything but dull.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by SuperCyan2 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:53 pm

Asura wrote:I almost have a hard time believing there are people out there like yourself who actually found the episode so dull that they couldn't finish it, that's just bizarre. I don't see how even the most diehard Super haters can call this episode dull.

It quite literally is the best animated episode in the entire franchise. It's even better than the RoF movie, how can you consider it dull? I can understand not liking the narrative context of the episode, but from a purely "shut your brain off and watch" point of view it should make everyone excited to watch.

I'd venture to bet even the most vocal complainers in this thread found the episode to be anything but dull.
The animation of the entire episode was spectacular and that we can all agree but I didn't really enjoy the battle of Goku vs Jiren, that just kept on dragging and dragging and dragging. And then Jiren went on and on about his power this and that which made it even less interesting for me. You know, Super just isn't for me, I prefer Classic Dragon Ball instead (DB/Z/GT).

Grandpa Goku did look pretty awesome. :thumbup:
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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Asura » Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:09 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Asura wrote:There's nothing inconsistent about it.
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

The implication is clear. Complete focus on the battle and disregard for outside factors (such as the 'erasure of the universe') is what allowed Goku to master Ultra Instinct to begin with. His friends are outside factors.
I see, I didn’t remember those lines. Yeah, a definite writing inconsistency, no doubt about it. Things happen in Super because they look cool. Things are said in Super because they sound cool, there’s no real consistency or logic.

But at least they bothered trying to explain a lot about the transformation, that’s more than I can say about any of these other transformations from Super.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by mAcChaos » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:17 am

foxfang4 wrote:It seems a lot of people here think they really know how Goku is. That Goku simply doesn't give up based on his own love for battle. When has this been the case? The biggest moment of Goku "giving up" was when he realized he couldn't beat Cell. But his "giving up" was actually part of his plan to bring in Gohan after he had studied Cell fighting. Goku's 2nd or 3rd winds due to friends/family/Saiyan pride have been a constant in all of Dragon Ball.
Don't forget when he gave up against Vegeta in the Saiyan Saga. He admit he lost and that it was over after Oozaru Vegeta crushed him.

It was only because all of his friends and Gohan came back that they managed to carry Goku over the finish line.
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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Simere » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:04 am

mAcChaos wrote:Don't forget when he gave up against Vegeta in the Saiyan Saga. He admit he lost and that it was over after Oozaru Vegeta crushed him.
Yeah, after he went down fighting, putting the last of his little energy remaining into blasting Vegeta's face, said there was nothing in him left, then couldn't move for the rest of the fight—and even after. And the page before talked about how satisfied he was about it.

I keep asking this question but no one will answer. I wish someone would, because it's the crux of my main issue:

"You guys who aren't bothered believe he will succumb to his fatigue without nakama motivation? Again, if it's just motivation that means it's only drawing on what's already there, so you're saying you think Goku would lie down and die otherwise against Jiren? Really?"

I think no one's answering because the answer is obviously that he would keep fighting if he had it in him, and to admit that would be to admit that the latter half of this episode focused on a load of crock rather than a more interesting, and accurate, dichotomy between Jiren and Goku.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:43 am

Simere wrote:
mAcChaos wrote:Don't forget when he gave up against Vegeta in the Saiyan Saga. He admit he lost and that it was over after Oozaru Vegeta crushed him.
Yeah, after he went down fighting, putting the last of his little energy remaining into blasting Vegeta's face, said there was nothing in him left, then couldn't move for the rest of the fight—and even after. And the page before talked about how satisfied he was about it.

I keep asking this question but no one will answer. I wish someone would, because it's the crux of my main issue:

"You guys who aren't bothered believe he will succumb to his fatigue without nakama motivation? Again, if it's just motivation that means it's only drawing on what's already there, so you're saying you think Goku would lie down and die otherwise against Jiren? Really?"

I think no one's answering because the answer is obviously that he would keep fighting if he had it in him, and to admit that would be to admit that the latter half of this episode focused on a load of crock rather than a more interesting, and accurate, dichotomy between Jiren and Goku.
Well, I already answered this beforehand, and I think I speak for at least some of the others when I say that we never thought this was the sole motivating factor.

But the latter part is inaccurate, at least in my opinion. Yeah, he'd continue fighting, but the so-called "nakama BS" is a means of focus and extra strength/resolve. His friends alone aren't enough, but neither is Goku alone. He probably could've won against Jiren on his own, but the focus brought on by fighting against Jiren's philosophy itself to prove that the connections he's formed are indeed powerful was instrumental in making it as clear of a victory as possible. Alone, Goku is strong and CAN win. But with the support of his loved ones? He's even stronger and will DEFINITELY win.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by jeffbr92 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:57 pm

Nero<>Akira wrote:It's still heroic and iconic despite surviving. he still did it and it was still great. what, is he not heroic because he survived lol? is it not an iconic moment cause he survived? ofc it still is.
It's not. Makes the audience looks dumb for getting all emotional for a character despite him just playing dead. I didn't like it how Vegeta survived a suicidal technique, but at least it was something for just a episode: "Hey, Vegeta didn't died!" #17 was presumably dead for a couple of episodes and his come back was pointless, we could still have Freeza to be the only able to fight Jiren.
Asura wrote:
SuperCyan2 wrote:So, I watched episode 130 or tried to (it was really dull so I didn't bother to watch till the end).
I almost have a hard time believing there are people out there like yourself who actually found the episode so dull that they couldn't finish it, that's just bizarre. I don't see how even the most diehard Super haters can call this episode dull.

It quite literally is the best animated episode in the entire franchise
. It's even better than the RoF movie, how can you consider it dull?
Guess what people has different opinions than you and though I agree this episode was not that bad for someone say it couldn't finish it, but superb animation doesn't make it for the whole thing to be flawess, sorry.
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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:10 pm

If Goku stuck to last episode's philosophy of losing perception of everything but the fight itself, he probably wouldn't have been taking those hits.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Asura » Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:20 am

jeffbr92 wrote:
Nero<>Akira wrote:It's still heroic and iconic despite surviving. he still did it and it was still great. what, is he not heroic because he survived lol? is it not an iconic moment cause he survived? ofc it still is.
It's not. Makes the audience looks dumb for getting all emotional for a character despite him just playing dead. I didn't like it how Vegeta survived a suicidal technique, but at least it was something for just a episode: "Hey, Vegeta didn't died!" #17 was presumably dead for a couple of episodes and his come back was pointless, we could still have Freeza to be the only able to fight Jiren.
Asura wrote:
SuperCyan2 wrote:So, I watched episode 130 or tried to (it was really dull so I didn't bother to watch till the end).
I almost have a hard time believing there are people out there like yourself who actually found the episode so dull that they couldn't finish it, that's just bizarre. I don't see how even the most diehard Super haters can call this episode dull.

It quite literally is the best animated episode in the entire franchise
. It's even better than the RoF movie, how can you consider it dull?
Guess what people has different opinions than you and though I agree this episode was not that bad for someone say it couldn't finish it, but superb animation doesn't make it for the whole thing to be flawess, sorry.
I never claimed that animation makes the episode flawless, all I was saying was that with animation that good and that exciting, I don't see how you could find the episode to be dull. Not even talking about whether you liked the episode or not, just about how you feel while watching it, that's what I was saying.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Simere » Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:46 am

I just saw a reviewer I like speak of how Goku's driving motivation to fight and the pursuit of power is to protect his friends, and now I'm bothered all over again. This was more of a mistake than I thought.

Michsi, I agreed with what you said earlier about how it seemed like overcompensation on DBS's part to correct missteps in characterization they made in the past, and that this too is trying to compensate for that overcompensation. But, from my perspective, it's a whole lot easier to correct the perception that Goku doesn't care about his friends than it is to correct that he mainly fights for them.
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:Well, I already answered this beforehand, and I think I speak for at least some of the others when I say that we never thought this was the sole motivating factor.
When I told you before that you have to imagine something else was meant other than what was said, did you disagree with that? Because it seems straight-forward to me:

Jiren: How?! How can you still stand after being beaten so many times, Son Goku?!
Son Goku: No. 17 and Vegeta and everyone else are trustin' me. I swear on that faith I can never back down now.

Nakama motivation is what he voiced, and nakama motivation is what the episode spent the next several minutes focusing on. Even If I were to imagine he didn't mean that this was his singular motivation for still standing, how could I possibly imagine those other unstated motivations are as important—let alone more important, which is what they are?

But the latter part is inaccurate, at least in my opinion. Yeah, he'd continue fighting, but the so-called "nakama BS" is a means of focus and extra strength/resolve. His friends alone aren't enough, but neither is Goku alone. He probably could've won against Jiren on his own, but the focus brought on by fighting against Jiren's philosophy itself to prove that the connections he's formed are indeed powerful was instrumental in making it as clear of a victory as possible. Alone, Goku is strong and CAN win. But with the support of his loved ones? He's even stronger and will DEFINITELY win.
This is probably the intended message they were trying to send. I just don't think they effectively delivered it, and that even perfectly delivered it's not the most compelling thing they could have done with Goku's character. And what message is sent when Goku doesn't win in the end, anyway?

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Post by Michsi » Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:00 am

Simere wrote:I just saw a reviewer I like speak of how Goku's driving motivation in life/the pursuit of power is to protect his friends, and now I'm bothered all over again. This was more of a mistake than I thought.

Michsi, I agreed with what you said earlier about how it seemed like overcompensation on DBS's part to correct missteps in characterization they made in the past, and that this too is trying to compensate for that overcompensation. But, from my perspective, it's a whole lot easier to correct the perception that Goku doesn't care about his friends than it is to correct that he mainly fights for them.

Maybe I've missed something and need to rewatch the episode, but I'm pretty sure this wasn't mentioned or even implied. It's all about each of them evolving/getting stronger/becoming better people thanks to meeting one another. They acknowledge profiting from knowing each other, no one more so than Goku. In that sense, you could still say it's a individualistic/self-centered view of interpersonal relationships, and that fits Goku. He is just being fair by admitting it and appreciating them for that.

And yes, it's also because he doesn't want them to die. Obviously.

But fighting for his friends and family? No, I think that's missing the point of his character. He will do it when they are in immediate danger, but as I said, that's not his main drive in life.

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