Super Episode 131 (25 March 2018)

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Re: Super Episode 131 (25 March 2018)

Post by TheMikado » Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:44 am

Michsi wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
bleed0range wrote:
The universe is very huge and those were very localized threats to someone like Zeno. They don’t seem to literally watch every little thing... but perhaps Zamasu’s interference gave the Zeno pause about not only the mortals but the Gods of their universe and they wanted to prove they were and would be righteous in the end.
The point is Zeno is claiming to care about their development but none of his previous actions reflect this. Even the ones on the multiverse level. Zeno didn’t care that Beerus hasn’t been doing his job for millions of years at a time.

He wasn’t involved enough to stop Zamasu before he ruined the multi universe but cared enough and wise and mature enough to make an elaborate tournament to test them or any of the other various occurrences. But still hands on enough to give Goku a button to call him whenever he wanted. Again the characterization is uneven and doesn’t fit in all the context. The man-child Zeno made sense right up until the last episode and I never complained about it beyond not personally liking him being a man-child but that was personal preference not a critique of actual writing consistency.
For a while I thought they were going for a subtle hint that the Omni King and the Angels were a little on the cruel side. The King's child-like glee at the general mayhem and the idea that he was seeking entertainment from mortals fighting for their lives seemed to suggest he and his kind were pretty messed up.
Them trying to correct it by having it appear like it was all part of a righteous godly plan was a little silly, and reminded me of them trying to mitigate Goku's responsibility in causing the TOP in the first place by teliing us "oh, he was planning on erasing them anyway. Goku just gave them a fighting change"-which by the way, also contradicts how the Omni King is shown in the last episode.
Exactly, I just don’t understand what they were going for. It feels like they keep shifting direction on characters and it makes this bizzare uneven tone shift. It’s why I don’t think it’s the original ending because none of the build up leads to this conclusion.

Like I said they could have easily just had Zeno enjoy it so much that he brings the universes back for the sole purpose of more tournaments and his own entertainment and it would have fit. Better yet they could have had 17 actually wish for his boat and Zeno bring back the universes anyway.

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Re: Super Episode 131 (25 March 2018)

Post by percula » Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:55 am

Wow, what a gorgeous looking final episode! So glad that a lot of work was put into it, because it clearly shows.
That being said, it really didn't feel like a series ending, but just the end of an arc. That is very appropriate, since we have new stuff coming up, and it really feels like a 'brief parting', as the narrator said. I really liked that it was not overly sentimental. Also, though it may have been obvious and expected with the upcoming film that's supposed to be a direct continuation of Super, it was still a little surprising not to see anything EoZ related, since Uub has been foreshadowed a couple of times both in the anime and manga. But I didn't mind too much. It seems Toriyama really wants to stay in the 10 year gap as long as possible.
I absolutely loved that we got another surprise with 17 being the last survivor - we always get something unexpected from Toriyama and I'm so grateful for that. Not only has 17 been unbelievably impressive this whole arc, but to have both of the last two episodes involve these unexpected twists with him... it's amazing :clap: And U7 did get their clean victory, and it involved teamwork!
The wish was obvious, but the fact that Zenos foresaw it was not, so even that was nice. And it was so heart-warming to see U6 revived! I had really missed those Saiyans and Champa. And I'm happy that Frost is back too :D
The only downside was that the episode did feel a little rushed. Some more time to breathe would have been nice. However, with how gorgeous these last two episodes have been, and with a sweet wrap-up, I can't complain much about that, either.
Best part of the ending was seeing 17 with his well-deserved boat and Vegeta with his family. The entire gang was there, even Tights and Jaco - those two had not appeared for a while.
We've seen Bulma hold many parties over the last few years, but it does always make for an appropriate end after an adventure, or in this case, an overly long tournament :D
Also, cannot wait to see what Freeza will be up to next. It feels both surreal and natural that he is just here to stay.
Anyway, it's been a blast to watch the series and read everybody's thoughts here! Let's hope that the time left until the movie will fly by and that a weekly DB series will return, whether it's Super or something new, in the near future!
Last edited by percula on Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Super Episode 131 (25 March 2018)

Post by obiwan23s » Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:57 am

Xehanort wrote:I just think they should've made a more "risky" ending, with everlasting consequences. This was just way too safe to leave an impact, and i'm of the opinion that wishing all universes back made the entire plot completely superfluous. Frieza getting revived was a cool touch, but the way they did it was stupid.
I thought the ending was a nice foil to the Zamasu arc, which had a god completely disillusioned on humanity to the point he wanted to wipe them all out, overlooking the good parts of humanity and focusing only on the bad. This arc sees Zeno pit all of the universes against each other on the hunch that the winner would do everyone a solid and make an unselfish wish to restore everything, focusing only on the good part of humanity and overlooking the bad. I'm trying really hard to have an issue with Freeza being revived. After all his arc in Dragon Ball Z is arguably the best, and if not the best is undeniably filled with many strong moments that make it classic. It could just be my nostalgia for the old series but I felt like Freeza staying dead after wiping out all of the Saiyans except for the one that ended up being the Super Saiyan was a very natural place for that arc to end. Having Freeza be alive again, with a new form allowing him to compete against Goku and building up his evil army again is great for nostalgia and all, but I don't think any of us really want a Freeza Saga 2.0 do we?

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Re: Super Episode 131 (25 March 2018)

Post by Michsi » Sun Mar 25, 2018 10:59 am

TheMikado wrote:
Michsi wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
The point is Zeno is claiming to care about their development but none of his previous actions reflect this. Even the ones on the multiverse level. Zeno didn’t care that Beerus hasn’t been doing his job for millions of years at a time.

He wasn’t involved enough to stop Zamasu before he ruined the multi universe but cared enough and wise and mature enough to make an elaborate tournament to test them or any of the other various occurrences. But still hands on enough to give Goku a button to call him whenever he wanted. Again the characterization is uneven and doesn’t fit in all the context. The man-child Zeno made sense right up until the last episode and I never complained about it beyond not personally liking him being a man-child but that was personal preference not a critique of actual writing consistency.
For a while I thought they were going for a subtle hint that the Omni King and the Angels were a little on the cruel side. The King's child-like glee at the general mayhem and the idea that he was seeking entertainment from mortals fighting for their lives seemed to suggest he and his kind were pretty messed up.
Them trying to correct it by having it appear like it was all part of a righteous godly plan was a little silly, and reminded me of them trying to mitigate Goku's responsibility in causing the TOP in the first place by teliing us "oh, he was planning on erasing them anyway. Goku just gave them a fighting change"-which by the way, also contradicts how the Omni King is shown in the last episode.
Exactly, I just don’t understand what they were going for. It feels like they keep shifting direction on characters and it makes this bizzare uneven tone shift. It’s why I don’t think it’s the original ending because none of the build up leads to this conclusion.

Like I said they could have easily just had Zeno enjoy it so much that he brings the universes back for the sole purpose of more tournaments and his own entertainment and it would have fit. Better yet they could have had 17 actually wish for his boat and Zeno bring back the universes anyway.
I think it's obvious why they did it - tension (the not well executed kind). 'OMG, whatever will U7 wish for.' Same as this ominous tone surrounding the Omni King and the angels that ended up going nowhere.
I've said this before, direction and themes were all over the place.

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Re: Super Episode 131 (25 March 2018)

Post by Amir » Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:05 am

TheMikado wrote:
Amir wrote:Opinions are fine and all, but can people please at least watch the episode and what was said about Zeno's predictions with the wish and the purpose behind the tournament before calling this entire TOP meaningless?
That little interesting detail was a very good reason to make the tournament and it gave it a proper meaning.
Even after watching it makes less sense because of the context of everything else in the universe.

Where was Zeno and him caring about he universe during Buus rampage, or Beerus sleeping why Frieza ruled the universe and and slaughtered mortals?
Where was he when Zamasu was hopping though universe and timelines killing mortals and kaioshin and GoDs?
How about when he erased Trunks timeline or the 6 universes?

If Zeno cares so much to concoct this whole ToP he hasn’t acted like it. That’s the point. It’s from complete left field given the context of the entire franchise.

It makes me so mad because it feels like the writers are treating us like we are stupid and won’t remember any of he build up or events leading to this point. It makes me mad because the ending feels insulting.

The major problem with this is that they could have just said Zeno has decided to bring all the universes back so that we can have a tournament again in the future and I would have bought it. He’s a child so him changing his mind would make sense when his reason to erase them was so dumb in the first place.

They didn’t need this elaborate good guy Zeno that doesn’t fit with his previous characterization.
But it does fit.

Your point about Zeno not caring because he didn't do anything about the events you listed is simply invalid for 2 reasons:

1) Zeno is usually unaware of things, that's why he doesn't do much, but When Zeno does hear about bad things that happen, he responds proprerly. It was stated a couple of times that Zeno does care, he cared when he saw 2 GoDs playing around instead of doing their job, hence the reason he came to the U6 tournament, he cared when he saw Zamasu taking over the multiverse, and Beerus stated that hearing about Black and the time machine would upset him, and this TOP is no exception. Zeno does care.

2) Zeno is the supreme ruler of the entire multiverse and also a child, he isn't a pride trooper who searches to solve crimes EVERY DAY, or a God of destruction who destroys things on a regular basis to keep balance in the universe, that's not his job, his job lies on a bigger scale which invloves the entire multiverse, His methods mostly include erasure with usage of absolute power, so it even makes more sense that he resorts to extremes only every now and then, and lets the lower Gods do their job on a more frequent rate and on a lower scale.

So with all that said, saying Zeno caring about the mortals's levels in the entire multiverse doesn't fit his characterization is wrong.

You think the writers treat you like an idiot as if you forgot any of the build up or previous events? Well, you obviously did forget how Zeno and the entire devine system works, judging from your claims.

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Re: Super Episode 131 (25 March 2018)

Post by lord turbo » Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:10 am

TheMikado wrote:Thank god I'm not the only one trying to reconcile what Zeno is suppose to be with all the characterization we’ve been given of him up to the point. This does not seem like how this was originally supposed to end given our setup of Zeno even back in the Champa arc and feels incredibly lazy and half assed.
That's Toriyama's middle name, seriously, that's par of the course for DBS on a whole, a lot of us have validly criticized this series so much we've bevome to numb to it.
"Before one may reach Heaven, they must endure Hell first. Only then will you be able to attain serenity beyond a sea of strife." & "Fear is not a sign of cowardice but the recognition of danger. Those who ignore this basic emotion do so out of vanity and are thus quelled before victory." - Roy Teal Jr.

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Re: Super Episode 131 (25 March 2018)

Post by TheMikado » Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:11 am

Amir wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
Amir wrote:Opinions are fine and all, but can people please at least watch the episode and what was said about Zeno's predictions with the wish and the purpose behind the tournament before calling this entire TOP meaningless?
That little interesting detail was a very good reason to make the tournament and it gave it a proper meaning.
Even after watching it makes less sense because of the context of everything else in the universe.

Where was Zeno and him caring about he universe during Buus rampage, or Beerus sleeping why Frieza ruled the universe and and slaughtered mortals?
Where was he when Zamasu was hopping though universe and timelines killing mortals and kaioshin and GoDs?
How about when he erased Trunks timeline or the 6 universes?

If Zeno cares so much to concoct this whole ToP he hasn’t acted like it. That’s the point. It’s from complete left field given the context of the entire franchise.

It makes me so mad because it feels like the writers are treating us like we are stupid and won’t remember any of he build up or events leading to this point. It makes me mad because the ending feels insulting.

The major problem with this is that they could have just said Zeno has decided to bring all the universes back so that we can have a tournament again in the future and I would have bought it. He’s a child so him changing his mind would make sense when his reason to erase them was so dumb in the first place.

They didn’t need this elaborate good guy Zeno that doesn’t fit with his previous characterization.
But it does fit.

Your point about Zeno not caring because he didn't do anything about the events you listed is simply invalid for 2 reasons:

1) Zeno is usually unaware of things, that's why he doesn't do much, but When Zeno does hear about bad things that happen, he responds proprerly. It was stated a couple of times that Zeno does care, he cared when he saw 2 GoDs playing around instead of doing their job, hence the reason he came to the U6 tournament, he cared when he saw Zamasu taking over the multiverse, and Beerus stated that hearing about Black and the time machine would upset him, and this TOP is no exception. Zeno does care.

2) Zeno is the supreme ruler of the entire multiverse and also a child, he isn't a pride trooper who searches to solve crimes EVERY DAY, or a God of destruction who destroys things on a regular basis to keep balance in the universe, that's not his job, his job lies on a bigger scale which invloves the entire multiverse, His methods mostly include erasure with usage of absolute power, so it even makes more sense that he resorts to extremes only every now and then, and lets the lower Gods do their job on a more frequent rate and on a lower scale.

So with all that said, saying Zeno caring about the mortals's levels in the entire multiverse doesn't fit his characterization is wrong.

You think the writers treat you like an idiot as if you forgot any of the build up or previous events? Well, you obviously did forget how Zeno and the entire devine system works, judging from your claims.
Absolutely nothing was forgotten and this is why his is bad and why it’s idiotic. You are re-envisioning Zeno as some responsible diety yet convenient every single instance in the show of him goofing off and playing around.

You are post episode propping up Zenos work and efforts as if he’s depicted out working hard to balance the universes when most instances show him shirking his perceived duties. That’s the problem and it’s quite obvious you either have forgotten Zenos characterizations for fell for the writers half assed ploy hook line and sinker.

Here’s the problem I showing. Taking his scene and re-envisioning it as them conducting some sort of official Zeno business when from what we understand they are destroying planets and have played over 200 rounds of it so far.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i42NUWMdA7E
Last edited by TheMikado on Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Super Episode 131 (25 March 2018)

Post by Vegeta_Sama » Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:17 am

Have you guys seen how Caulifla immediately ran to Cabba to ask him to go and train? The dude's totally getting laid :wink:
Vegeta! We can get even stronger!
Of course! A Saiyan's strenght has no limits!


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Re: Super Episode 131 (25 March 2018)

Post by Doctor. » Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:19 am

ekrolo2 wrote:Much like how 17s arc" of becoming more human rings very hollow since I do not get where he's coming from at the start or buy where he ends up.
To be fair to Super, interest in inherently human things was always one of #17's traits even back in Z. Guess they decided to expand it into an arc about him taking back his humanity.

[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

I like it. It's subtle and nuanced development and fits in well with the way Toriyama would develop his characters back in the day. Certainly much better than throwing a sob story at your face and screaming your beliefs at the top of your lungs like the way they handled Jiren.
Last edited by Doctor. on Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Super Episode 131 (25 March 2018)

Post by Drellz26 » Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:20 am

I HATED the last few episodes but after this I still have a huge smile on my face. Everything I expected but still so unexpected if that makes sense. I have to get my thoughts all the way together but that was beautiful.

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Re: Super Episode 131 (25 March 2018)

Post by dbs fanboy » Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:21 am

TheMikado wrote:
Michsi wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
The point is Zeno is claiming to care about their development but none of his previous actions reflect this. Even the ones on the multiverse level. Zeno didn’t care that Beerus hasn’t been doing his job for millions of years at a time.

He wasn’t involved enough to stop Zamasu before he ruined the multi universe but cared enough and wise and mature enough to make an elaborate tournament to test them or any of the other various occurrences. But still hands on enough to give Goku a button to call him whenever he wanted. Again the characterization is uneven and doesn’t fit in all the context. The man-child Zeno made sense right up until the last episode and I never complained about it beyond not personally liking him being a man-child but that was personal preference not a critique of actual writing consistency.
For a while I thought they were going for a subtle hint that the Omni King and the Angels were a little on the cruel side. The King's child-like glee at the general mayhem and the idea that he was seeking entertainment from mortals fighting for their lives seemed to suggest he and his kind were pretty messed up.
Them trying to correct it by having it appear like it was all part of a righteous godly plan was a little silly, and reminded me of them trying to mitigate Goku's responsibility in causing the TOP in the first place by teliing us "oh, he was planning on erasing them anyway. Goku just gave them a fighting change"-which by the way, also contradicts how the Omni King is shown in the last episode.
Exactly, I just don’t understand what they were going for. It feels like they keep shifting direction on characters and it makes this bizzare uneven tone shift. It’s why I don’t think it’s the original ending because none of the build up leads to this conclusion.

Like I said they could have easily just had Zeno enjoy it so much that he brings the universes back for the sole purpose of more tournaments and his own entertainment and it would have fit. Better yet they could have had 17 actually wish for his boat and Zeno bring back the universes anyway.

To give my two cents on the matter (thought it won't change anyone's opinion), the way i see it is that this does not make Zeno good or change the way his written. The thing about this guy is that he's freaking chaotic and you can never know what's up with him, that's why the gods fear him so much. He can erase you for "doing bad your job" even when for the most part he doesn't usually show any care , he can also erase you over something silly or if he just doesn't like you.

Like seriously, the only reason everyone's alive now it's because of that wish that 17 made; had it been Freeza, Jiren or Ribrianne and everyone would have been screwed.

Just Imagine it, U7 wins and Lapis wishes for a boat like he intended to do and boom Zeno destroys them all just right when they were relieved cause danger was over.Without any kind of warning.

This little shit is a wild card , that's why it's better not To mess with him, hell i remember back then on #55 when he almost erases a guard when the poor guy was just doing his job when he didn't do the same with the gods that weren't doing shit.

Oh well, that's the way i see it.
I really miss ma boy, Black :( :cry:


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Re: Super Episode 131 (25 March 2018)

Post by TheMikado » Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:28 am

dbs fanboy wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
Michsi wrote:
For a while I thought they were going for a subtle hint that the Omni King and the Angels were a little on the cruel side. The King's child-like glee at the general mayhem and the idea that he was seeking entertainment from mortals fighting for their lives seemed to suggest he and his kind were pretty messed up.
Them trying to correct it by having it appear like it was all part of a righteous godly plan was a little silly, and reminded me of them trying to mitigate Goku's responsibility in causing the TOP in the first place by teliing us "oh, he was planning on erasing them anyway. Goku just gave them a fighting change"-which by the way, also contradicts how the Omni King is shown in the last episode.
Exactly, I just don’t understand what they were going for. It feels like they keep shifting direction on characters and it makes this bizzare uneven tone shift. It’s why I don’t think it’s the original ending because none of the build up leads to this conclusion.

Like I said they could have easily just had Zeno enjoy it so much that he brings the universes back for the sole purpose of more tournaments and his own entertainment and it would have fit. Better yet they could have had 17 actually wish for his boat and Zeno bring back the universes anyway.

To give my two cents on the matter (thought it won't change anyone's opinion), the way i see it is that this does not make Zeno good or change the way his written. The thing about this guy is that he's freaking chaotic and you can never know what's up with him, that's why the gods fear him so much. He can erase you for "doing bad your job" even when for the most part he doesn't usually show any care , he can also erase you over something silly or if he just doesn't like you.

Like seriously, the only reason everyone's alive now it's because of that wish that 17 made; had it been Freeza, Jiren or Ribrianne and everyone would have been screwed.

Just Imagine it, U7 wins and Lapis wishes for a boat like he intended to do and boom Zeno destroys them all just right when they were relieved cause danger was over.Without any kind of warning.

This little shit is a wild card , that's why it's better not To mess with him, hell i remember back then on #55 when he almost erases a guard when the poor guy was just doing his job when he didn't do the same with the gods that weren't doing shit.

Oh well, that's the way i see it.
I agree with the wildcard part so I wouldn’t be surprised if he spared the universes or brought them back for selfish reasons. Him making an elaborate plot to test them with the tournament doesn’t fit the kind of Zeno we are introduced to. The issue isn’t that he wants them back it’s that he’s suddenly this sudden wise mature and thoughtful entity who foresaw this outcome rather than the chaotic entity we were introduced to and saw.

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Re: Super Episode 131 (25 March 2018)

Post by OverHeaven » Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:36 am

Do you think they intentionally made Jiren such a shitty character so we can see him as pretty cool and well-developed character when he becomes relevant again later on? possibly in the new movie.

I wouldn't mind seeing a Goku, Hit and Jiren trio action... sorry Vegeta lol

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Re: Super Episode 131 (25 March 2018)

Post by Doctor. » Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:38 am

OverHeaven wrote:Do you think they intentionally made Jiren such a shitty character so we can see him as pretty cool and well-developed character when he becomes relevant again later on? possibly in the new movie.

I wouldn't mind seeing a Goku, Hit and Jiren trio action... sorry Vegeta lol
They made him intentionally hammy and shoved his terrible development down our throat to pull in the One Piece and Naruto viewers.

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Re: Super Episode 131 (25 March 2018)

Post by Amir » Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:45 am

TheMikado wrote:
Amir wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
Even after watching it makes less sense because of the context of everything else in the universe.

Where was Zeno and him caring about he universe during Buus rampage, or Beerus sleeping why Frieza ruled the universe and and slaughtered mortals?
Where was he when Zamasu was hopping though universe and timelines killing mortals and kaioshin and GoDs?
How about when he erased Trunks timeline or the 6 universes?

If Zeno cares so much to concoct this whole ToP he hasn’t acted like it. That’s the point. It’s from complete left field given the context of the entire franchise.

It makes me so mad because it feels like the writers are treating us like we are stupid and won’t remember any of he build up or events leading to this point. It makes me mad because the ending feels insulting.

The major problem with this is that they could have just said Zeno has decided to bring all the universes back so that we can have a tournament again in the future and I would have bought it. He’s a child so him changing his mind would make sense when his reason to erase them was so dumb in the first place.

They didn’t need this elaborate good guy Zeno that doesn’t fit with his previous characterization.
But it does fit.

Your point about Zeno not caring because he didn't do anything about the events you listed is simply invalid for 2 reasons:

1) Zeno is usually unaware of things, that's why he doesn't do much, but When Zeno does hear about bad things that happen, he responds proprerly. It was stated a couple of times that Zeno does care, he cared when he saw 2 GoDs playing around instead of doing their job, hence the reason he came to the U6 tournament, he cared when he saw Zamasu taking over the multiverse, and Beerus stated that hearing about Black and the time machine would upset him, and this TOP is no exception. Zeno does care.

2) Zeno is the supreme ruler of the entire multiverse and also a child, he isn't a pride trooper who searches to solve crimes EVERY DAY, or a God of destruction who destroys things on a regular basis to keep balance in the universe, that's not his job, his job lies on a bigger scale which invloves the entire multiverse, His methods mostly include erasure with usage of absolute power, so it even makes more sense that he resorts to extremes only every now and then, and lets the lower Gods do their job on a more frequent rate and on a lower scale.

So with all that said, saying Zeno caring about the mortals's levels in the entire multiverse doesn't fit his characterization is wrong.

You think the writers treat you like an idiot as if you forgot any of the build up or previous events? Well, you obviously did forget how Zeno and the entire devine system works, judging from your claims.
Absolutely nothing was forgotten and this is why his is bad and why it’s idiotic. You are re-envisioning Zeno as some responsible diety yet convenient every single instance in the show of him goofing off and playing around.

You are post episode propping up Zenos work and efforts as if he’s depicted out working hard to balance the universes when most instances show him shirking his perceived duties. That’s the problem and it’s quite obvious you either have forgotten Zenos characterizations for fell for the writers half assed ploy hook line and sinker.

Here’s the problem I showing. Taking his scene and re-envisioning it as them conducting some sort of official Zeno business when from what we understand they are destroying planets and have played over 200 rounds of it so far.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i42NUWMdA7E
I never said Zeno was actually good at his job, the fact that he is constantly unaware of things confirms it. My point is that when he is aware of things, he does take actions, that's why it made sense for him to do what he did in the TOP, since he was aware.

His characterization is a naive child who lacks awareness with the responsibility and power to control all, and when he is aware of bad problems, he does take actions.
Where is the problem?
Doctor. wrote: They made him intentionally hammy and shoved his terrible development down our throat to pull in the One Piece and Naruto viewers.
I can agree with the fact that it was a bad chioce to address what made him so emotionless so later in the arc, but why was his development terrible?

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Re: Super Episode 131 (25 March 2018)

Post by Doctor. » Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:52 am

Amir wrote:I can agree with the fact that it was a bad chioce to address what made him so emotionless so later in the arc, but why was his development terrible?
Compared to someone like Hit, who also changed due to Goku's influence, it was overly dramatic and exaggerated. Perhaps it wouldn't have been so bad if they didn't address it 3 or 4 episodes before the end, but that way it just felt shallow.

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Re: Super Episode 131 (25 March 2018)

Post by Raphael_Z » Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:59 am

Hit never got a backstory other than "he's a hit-man". Buu never got a backstory other than "he's a force of destruction". Frieza never got a backstory other than "he's a space tyrant".

I don't see why Toriyama had to give a backstory to Jiren. A really cliched backstory that adds little to his non-existent depth. I don't think Toriyama is good at all when it comes to giving backstories to his villains/antagonists. The ret-con story of why King Piccolo was evil was REALLY bad too.

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TheMikado
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Re: Super Episode 131 (25 March 2018)

Post by TheMikado » Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:00 pm

Amir wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
Amir wrote: But it does fit.

Your point about Zeno not caring because he didn't do anything about the events you listed is simply invalid for 2 reasons:

1) Zeno is usually unaware of things, that's why he doesn't do much, but When Zeno does hear about bad things that happen, he responds proprerly. It was stated a couple of times that Zeno does care, he cared when he saw 2 GoDs playing around instead of doing their job, hence the reason he came to the U6 tournament, he cared when he saw Zamasu taking over the multiverse, and Beerus stated that hearing about Black and the time machine would upset him, and this TOP is no exception. Zeno does care.

2) Zeno is the supreme ruler of the entire multiverse and also a child, he isn't a pride trooper who searches to solve crimes EVERY DAY, or a God of destruction who destroys things on a regular basis to keep balance in the universe, that's not his job, his job lies on a bigger scale which invloves the entire multiverse, His methods mostly include erasure with usage of absolute power, so it even makes more sense that he resorts to extremes only every now and then, and lets the lower Gods do their job on a more frequent rate and on a lower scale.

So with all that said, saying Zeno caring about the mortals's levels in the entire multiverse doesn't fit his characterization is wrong.

You think the writers treat you like an idiot as if you forgot any of the build up or previous events? Well, you obviously did forget how Zeno and the entire devine system works, judging from your claims.
Absolutely nothing was forgotten and this is why his is bad and why it’s idiotic. You are re-envisioning Zeno as some responsible diety yet convenient every single instance in the show of him goofing off and playing around.

You are post episode propping up Zenos work and efforts as if he’s depicted out working hard to balance the universes when most instances show him shirking his perceived duties. That’s the problem and it’s quite obvious you either have forgotten Zenos characterizations for fell for the writers half assed ploy hook line and sinker.

Here’s the problem I showing. Taking his scene and re-envisioning it as them conducting some sort of official Zeno business when from what we understand they are destroying planets and have played over 200 rounds of it so far.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i42NUWMdA7E
I never said Zeno was actually good at his job, the fact that he is constantly unaware of things confirms it. My point is that when he is aware of things, he does take actions, that's why it made sense for him to do what he did in the TOP, since he was aware.

His characterization is a naive child who lacks awareness with the responsibility and power to control all, and when he is aware of bad problems, he does take actions.
Where is the problem?
Because the resolution was that he made this elaborate scenario to test mortals yet incredibly naive, immature, and impulsive. I’ve already said what would have made sense. Zeno says he’s so entertained by it that be brings the universes back so he can have Future tournaments. It’s simple, it’s easy, it’s in line with his character.

The resolution given wasn’t well thought out in he context of everything presented. It was dumb, it was unnecessary, and it doesn’t seem to have a real point.
They could have left it as I said and they would still be in constant worry of Zeno getting randomly mad. No they are trying to portray him as thoughtful and planning ahead in the last episode. It just doesn’t make sense and was poorly written for this sudden reveal in the very last episode. But considering we had the Toriyama not knowing how he wanted to end the series this definitely feels slapped on.

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Re: Super Episode 131 (25 March 2018)

Post by Nevaeh » Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:03 pm

Frieza back but King Kai still dead :lol:

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Re: Super Episode 131 (25 March 2018)

Post by LightBing » Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:05 pm

What are the odds the anime added the "Ultra Instinct is gone" bit just to have Goku and Vegeta be equals at the end?

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