Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Yasai9001 » Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:46 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:48 am
So what's the deal with the kaioken?
We know Goku was around 8,000 and that kaioken doubles that, so regular kaioken = 16,000... and then KKx2 = 16,000 also???
So are kaioken and kaiokenx2 the same?? what's the difference? what's the benefit in not augmenting your power but putting more strain on your body?

Or is it that the first time Goku used regular kaioken, he actually wasn't getting a 2x boost? and more like a 1.5x or so? meaning Goku broke Nappa's back at 12,000? and with KKx2, at 16,000 was still below Vegeta's 18,000?

Could it be that kaioken1 is like an entry door to the actual technique, sort of like Sign is to UI or SS to SS2?? and Goku in his firsts experiences with it, was taking small steps, listening to Kaiosama's warnings, and not going "full" kaioken (as in not doubling his power from the get go) and calling the actual full extent of the technique kaiokenx2, maybe because at the time it was the second stage of the full technique?? because later on, Goku only uses KK, and KKx10 or x20, and it's implied he is getting double the power when using regular KK.

Clearly, Toriyama dropped the ball here and we have to do mental gymnastics to make sense to this.

Thoughts?
Good question. I was looking over this part of the Manga the other day. Having completely forgotten about it, I was like wtf. I don't know what the explanation here could be; I'd just chalk it up to Toriyama dropping the ball tbh.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:02 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:48 am
So what's the deal with the kaioken?
We know Goku was around 8,000 and that kaioken doubles that, so regular kaioken = 16,000... and then KKx2 = 16,000 also???
So are kaioken and kaiokenx2 the same?? what's the difference? what's the benefit in not augmenting your power but putting more strain on your body?

Or is it that the first time Goku used regular kaioken, he actually wasn't getting a 2x boost? and more like a 1.5x or so? meaning Goku broke Nappa's back at 12,000? and with KKx2, at 16,000 was still below Vegeta's 18,000?

Could it be that kaioken1 is like an entry door to the actual technique, sort of like Sign is to UI or SS to SS2?? and Goku in his firsts experiences with it, was taking small steps, listening to Kaiosama's warnings, and not going "full" kaioken (as in not doubling his power from the get go) and calling the actual full extent of the technique kaiokenx2, maybe because at the time it was the second stage of the full technique?? because later on, Goku only uses KK, and KKx10 or x20, and it's implied he is getting double the power when using regular KK.

Clearly, Toriyama dropped the ball here and we have to do mental gymnastics to make sense to this.

Thoughts?
For me KK equals KK with a times 2 multiplier. Unless if I am missing something and Goku yelled in some dub "KK, KK times 2 and KK times 3" in the Vegeta fight or a movie.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Kaboom » Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:21 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:48 am
So what's the deal with the kaioken?
We know Goku was around 8,000 and that kaioken doubles that, so regular kaioken = 16,000... and then KKx2 = 16,000 also???
So are kaioken and kaiokenx2 the same?? what's the difference? what's the benefit in not augmenting your power but putting more strain on your body
The solution I've long settled on is that Kaio-Ken and "Kaio-Ken x2" are the same thing. After Goku uses the KK for the first time, the narrator plainly states that it doubled his power, so there's no doubt about that. I figure the "x2" was only added onto its next use for some extra clarification, to help set up Goku using the x3 next.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Desassina » Wed Mar 24, 2021 7:03 pm

Goku doesn't need to shout the multiplier of its Kaioken at all times and he uses the latest one unless we're specifically told what it is. In the Saiyan arc's case, since he needed to unlock Kaioken x3, the narrator mentioned that he had been using a 2 fold one. The reason why Oozaru was made to be 10 times Vegeta's power was so that Goku could not reach him through Kaioken and that only makes sense in case he can use the 4 fold one once more. Kaio-sama said that he was using Kaioken x10 against Freeza.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:03 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:46 pm
Twenty-First Tenka'ichi Budoukai:

Son Gokuu (9): Had the Muten Roushi not been exhausted by the Oozaru incident I think we would have seen a more decisive decision in his favor.
Kuririn (8): Decisively below Gokuu by a notch but still impressive compared to the old Gokuu.
Yamcha (8): he's probably on the same level as Kuririn, you think?
Muten Roushi (10): I don't think he did any training for this tournament?
I think it's painfully obvious that Kuririn and Yamcha aren't even comparable. Kuririn fought toe to toe with Jackie Chun, Yamcha got taken out by a wave of his hand. I think you should do it like this:

Goku/Roshi: 10 (Equals. 9/10 is a huge difference, see how Zarbon and Dodoria fared vs Vegeta)
Kuririn: 9
Yamcha: 7 or 7.5 (Much be stronger than BoS Goku)

But honesly this kind of nerfing doesn't even matter. Master Roshi still needs to be a 139 by the 22nd Budokai either way.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:58 pm

Cooked up a new list for the Pre Z power levels, and I think it's looking pretty good. I know in the post above I say Roshi needs to be 139 by the 22nd Budokai, but it's much easier for everybody to just take the DBS route and believe Roshi has been training in secret. It can even be argued he temporarily surpassed Chaozu and Yajirobe by that time because their powers weren't picked up by the scouters.

As a guide for the power gaps, here's Lightbing's analysis of power gaps according to the power levels shown in the series.
And here's my list:
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:44 pm

What are you guys multipliers to:

SSJ2
SSJ3
Golden Oozaru
SSJ4
God
Blue
Ultra Instinct (?)
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:33 pm

Noah wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:44 pm
What are you guys multipliers to:

SSJ2
SSJ3
Golden Oozaru
SSJ4
God
Blue
Ultra Instinct (?)
I like to give relatively small multipliers. And even those are rather big. I also don't like giving them in relation to the Base form. First cause the numbers look ridiculous and secondly because some forms may react differently than others (SSB perfect ki control allowing it to drop as far down as normal SS levels if Goku wants it to, something that can't, or hasn't, happened with SS3, SS2 etc).

So:
SS2 - 2xSS
SS3 - 4xSS2 or 8xSS
GGA - 10xSS/20xSS
SS4 - 10xSS3 or 80xSS
God - 250xSS or roughy 3xSS4
Blue - ranges from SS to 5xSSG
UI - Omen around 50xBlue, the third Omen is the exception cause it was nearing completion so the multiplier there is higher, MUI around 150xBlue to 200xBlue (always relative to current Blue levels)
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Kaboom » Sun Apr 18, 2021 11:05 pm

Noah wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:44 pm
What are you guys multipliers to...
Super Saiyan 2 and 3 already have official multipliers which work fine, so that's covered.

For GT in its original form, Golden Ape probably multiplies something by 10 (likely your maximum SS 1-3 power), while Super Saiyan 4 is at least several times stronger than that. With how inconsistent GT's power-scaling it, it's probably some sort of variable potential unlock deal, rather than a fixed multiplier. For my own gradual GT rewrite, I'm still undecided between the two sets of multipliers I talked about on the last page. But I'm starting to favor the option of a flat 1,000x for Golden Ape and 5,000x for Super Saiyan 4, just for its simplicity compared to the "sliding scale up to 4,000x" approach I'd previously considered.

Much like GT, both versions of Super are also pretty inconsistent with their power-scaling, and I couldn't really give a damn anyway, so if "multipliers" for God, Blue, and UI exist then they could be anything. Even in my still-in-the-rough-ideas-stage rewrite of Super, the power boost they grant wouldn't be fixed, but instead variable based on the user's proficiency in channeling godly ki.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:10 am

Noah wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:44 pm
What are you guys multipliers to:

SSJ2
SSJ3
Golden Oozaru
SSJ4
God
Blue
Ultra Instinct (?)
SS2: 100 times base.
SS3: 400 times base.
Golden Oozaru: 500 times base? He's supposed to be an Oozaru turned Super Saiyan no?
SS4: I have no idea. Has to be bigger than Golden Oozaru right?
God: 1,000 times base.
Blue: 50,000 times base.
UI: Waiting to see how Toei adapts Moro. It has to be at least more than 20 times over Blue thanks to Kaioken.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:30 am

Noah wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:44 pm
SSJ2 - x100 (2x SS)
SSJ3 - x400 (4xSS2)

Golden Oozaru - x500 or more (10x SS)
SSJ4 - x5000 (10x ohzaru, not immediately because Baby wasn't going nuts when SS4 appeared so it probably had the same power as the ohzaru, but gradually because he managed to fight a 10x stronger Vegeta Baby)

God - x6,000 (more than SS4 because of the comparisons with super saiyan fusion)
Blue - x60,000 (x10 SSG)
Perfect Blue - x120,000 (2x SSB) - Goku went on to evenly fight Merged Zamasu


ToP 1st Sign seemed to be at least x50 SSB considering it closed the gap with a Jiren that toyed with SSBKKx20
2nd Sign was stronger, so maybe x60? x75?
3rd Sign perhaps was already x100 SSB
MUI twice that I guess.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:53 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:58 pm
Cooked up a new list for the Pre Z power levels, and I think it's looking pretty good. I know in the post above I say Roshi needs to be 139 by the 22nd Budokai, but it's much easier for everybody to just take the DBS route and believe Roshi has been training in secret. It can even be argued he temporarily surpassed Chaozu and Yajirobe by that time because their powers weren't picked up by the scouters.
Really cool that you made a list Pre-Raditz. I'm still working on mine(Uranai tournament currently) but found a previous list I made and it's going pretty similar.

At first sight seems like our Piccolo Daimao numbers and beyond are crazy similar. I guess it's product from the Raditz scouter confirmations.

Until the Urunai Baba's arc the only numbers that stand out are Tao Pai Pai and the Orin Temple Bully. The first was largely dominated against Goku, not a complete beatdown but Goku was quite ahead even allowing a full blown flurry from the assassin just to evaluate him.

The second we don't see fight and I'm going by instinct that Kuririn's fear was completely unjustified and a product of trauma.
I believe Kuririn probably could beat them down even before Muten Roshi's training, he dodged a surprise attack from a tiger and one shot him.
I just don't see a normal martial artist being remotely close to first arc Goku.

On this note what do you think about a clear difference between "humans" and beyond? Muten Roshi establishes this this during his training.

For the 21st TB I would argue The Turtle School and Namu are clearly above and Giran is a maybe. I want to give a value to this since I feel it's relevant. What do you think?

Regarding Muten Roshi, I got that he's recuperating his body to his old power throughout the manga. I actually give him his Raditz power level during his kamehameha's.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:16 am

LightBing wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:53 pm
At first sight seems like our Piccolo Daimao numbers and beyond are crazy similar. I guess it's product from the Raditz scouter confirmations.

Until the Urunai Baba's arc the only numbers that stand out are Tao Pai Pai and the Orin Temple Bully. The first was largely dominated against Goku, not a complete beatdown but Goku was quite ahead even allowing a full blown flurry from the assassin just to evaluate him.

The second we don't see fight and I'm going by instinct that Kuririn's fear was completely unjustified and a product of trauma.
I believe Kuririn probably could beat them down even before Muten Roshi's training, he dodged a surprise attack from a tiger and one shot him.
I just don't see a normal martial artist being remotely close to first arc Goku.

On this note what do you think about a clear difference between "humans" and beyond? Muten Roshi establishes this this during his training.

For the 21st TB I would argue The Turtle School and Namu are clearly above and Giran is a maybe. I want to give a value to this since I feel it's relevant. What do you think?

Regarding Muten Roshi, I got that he's recuperating his body to his old power throughout the manga. I actually give him his Raditz power level during his kamehameha's.
Yeah, there's not much room here. I had to ignore the "many times"/"less than half" statements, but I guess it's okay. Technically Piccolo is millions of times stronger between BoZ and the 23rd Budokai anyway since he went from Continent Level to Moon Level.

I think the gap I have translated into that just fine. That fight was a lot like Kaio-Ken x2 Goku and Vegeta's brief scuffle, or Goku vs Cell which a lot of people associate with a 1.1x gap.

Well this is Dragon Ball, martial artists are much stronger than in real life. This guy is like, the strongest in his class. I think at least he can be stronger than Kuririn. Plus they were picking on him until he left, weren't they?
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Roshi says this and proceeds to show his own speed, so I'd say they are on human level. I'd say Yamcha or Bacteria (I tend to swap on who's stronger, but they should be on the same level) are on the top of the human chain, slightly better than the Goku on the beginning of the series.

However this might also mean that Pamputto, whose wall breaking feat often places him on pair with Goku after training with Roshi, is probably much weaker than even Roshi from the beginning of the series.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:50 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:16 am
I think the gap I have translated into that just fine. That fight was a lot like Kaio-Ken x2 Goku and Vegeta's brief scuffle, or Goku vs Cell which a lot of people associate with a 1.1x gap.
Is this in reference to Tao Pai Pai? You put no gap, Goku and the assassin have the same power in your list.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:16 am
Well this is Dragon Ball, martial artists are much stronger than in real life. This guy is like, the strongest in his class. I think at least he can be stronger than Kuririn. Plus they were picking on him until he left, weren't they?
There's not many feats like one-shot a tiger from normal martial artists in the manga. 21st TB Bacterian and Ranfan only made past the preliminary because of a gimmick. Giran clearly super-strong, give ups when Goku destroys a wall.
Most of them are chumps.

Kuririn consistently doubts himself. He was trained by the famous Muten Roshi, jumped like 30 meters in the air and move a huge boulder, yet still doubted himself against the bully.
Anyway, it's just my assertion, we can't actually prove his level since Kuririn was that much stronger than him.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:16 am
Roshi says this and proceeds to show his own speed, so I'd say they are on human level. I'd say Yamcha or Bacteria (I tend to swap on who's stronger, but they should be on the same level) are on the top of the human chain, slightly better than the Goku on the beginning of the series.

However this might also mean that Pamputto, whose wall breaking feat often places him on pair with Goku after training with Roshi, is probably much weaker than even Roshi from the beginning of the series.
I think Bacterian is not even close to Yamcha, I have him weaker than First arc Goku.
Not really sure about Pamput, my old list has him close to 21st TB Kuririn. But I remember a Muten Roshi quote giving him some importance.

I still have to finish my re-reading. Haven't really got the time.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:59 pm

LightBing wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:50 pm
Is this in reference to Tao Pai Pai? You put no gap, Goku and the assassin have the same power in your list.
Oops… Tao was supposed to be a 40… Guess I’m too late to change that now… :crazy:
There's not many feats like one-shot a tiger from normal martial artists in the manga. 21st TB Bacterian and Ranfan only made past the preliminary because of a gimmick. Giran clearly super-strong, give ups when Goku destroys a wall.
Most of them are chumps.

Kuririn consistently doubts himself. He was trained by the famous Muten Roshi, jumped like 30 meters in the air and move a huge boulder, yet still doubted himself against the bully.
Anyway, it's just my assertion, we can't actually prove his level since Kuririn was that much stronger than him.
I don’t think it’s stated anywhere, but I don’t think Goku and Kuririn would’ve gone very far in the Budokai without Roshi’s training. That’s part of the reason they went after him in the first place…

Ranfan relied mostly on gimmicks, but she’s probably the weakest in this Budokai. Yamcha actually said Bacteria had fearsome strength though.
I think Bacterian is not even close to Yamcha, I have him weaker than First arc Goku.
Not really sure about Pamput, my old list has him close to 21st TB Kuririn. But I remember a Muten Roshi quote giving him some importance.

I still have to finish my re-reading. Haven't really got the time.
Bacteria should at least be up there with Yamcha from the start of the series imo.

Roshi gives Pamputto importance saying he’s fairly strong, but only by human standards and he shows how far Goku and co. are from that level now. In comparison, Roshi also said Goku and Kuririn are close to the “human wall” and then showed himself as an example of someone above that wall.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Mad Swami » Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:35 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:10 am
Noah wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:44 pm
What are you guys multipliers to:

SSJ2
SSJ3
Golden Oozaru
SSJ4
God
Blue
Ultra Instinct (?)
SS2: 100 times base.
SS3: 400 times base.
Golden Oozaru: 500 times base? He's supposed to be an Oozaru turned Super Saiyan no?
SS4: I have no idea. Has to be bigger than Golden Oozaru right?
God: 1,000 times base.
Blue: 50,000 times base.
UI: Waiting to see how Toei adapts Moro. It has to be at least more than 20 times over Blue thanks to Kaioken.
Your god multipliers are for the manga, right? I see those ones spread around a lot.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:17 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:35 am
ZombieVito wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:10 am
Noah wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:44 pm
What are you guys multipliers to:

SSJ2
SSJ3
Golden Oozaru
SSJ4
God
Blue
Ultra Instinct (?)
SS2: 100 times base.
SS3: 400 times base.
Golden Oozaru: 500 times base? He's supposed to be an Oozaru turned Super Saiyan no?
SS4: I have no idea. Has to be bigger than Golden Oozaru right?
God: 1,000 times base.
Blue: 50,000 times base.
UI: Waiting to see how Toei adapts Moro. It has to be at least more than 20 times over Blue thanks to Kaioken.
Your god multipliers are for the manga, right? I see those ones spread around a lot.
I don't do manga power levels for Super.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Mad Swami » Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:49 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 12:17 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:35 am
ZombieVito wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:10 am

SS2: 100 times base.
SS3: 400 times base.
Golden Oozaru: 500 times base? He's supposed to be an Oozaru turned Super Saiyan no?
SS4: I have no idea. Has to be bigger than Golden Oozaru right?
God: 1,000 times base.
Blue: 50,000 times base.
UI: Waiting to see how Toei adapts Moro. It has to be at least more than 20 times over Blue thanks to Kaioken.
Your god multipliers are for the manga, right? I see those ones spread around a lot.
I don't do manga power levels for Super.
wow those numbers are low for the super anime then. At least given the popular consensus and my own opinion

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:16 pm

Noah wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:44 pm
What are you guys multipliers to:

SSJ2
SSJ3
Golden Oozaru
SSJ4
God
Blue
Ultra Instinct (?)
SSJ2 and 3 have official multipliers, so no need to state

Golden oozaru : given dbgt's scaling, it has to be x10 ssj3 or else it wouldn't made any sense for super baby 2 to be scared of it

Ssj4 : roughly equal to oozaru baby, who's 10X super baby 2. This makes ssj4 a x40'000 In goku's/vegeta's case. I'm not considering gohan xeno here because dbh made his ssj4 an absolute conster, comparable to ssj4 gogeta xeno

God : x8'000'000'000
I use the same multiplier everywhere because it makes sense and this is the one I came up for trunks xeno for the way i scale dbh

Ssb
Anime : baseline = God x50, Fullpower = God x75, Fullpower from merged zamasu on = x150

Ssb is explained as the ssj for a god from Goku immediately after the transformation, but then he powers up going Fullpower in his own words.

Also, against merged Zamasu Goku tells to Vegeta to go Fullpower, implying by logic that they broke their limit and unlocked a new Fullpower version.
This is also backed in by the fact that base kefla was>>god goku, but by going blue goku could hold his own perfectly against ssj kefla for a while.

Manga :
Ssb = God x5
10% ssb Vegeta was weaker than god Goku, so seems about right

Ssb Fullpower = God x50
It is a big power up due to ssbfp being on par with merged Zamasu, who previously stomped both ssbs with absolutely no diff.

Movies :
God
Due to the movie's lack of feats, god is weaker there. Due to this, i now use a x16'000'000 multiplier for ssj god in the battle of gods movie

Ssb
There, ssb is just described as " have learned to use the god's power without any ritual needed" , so i do :
SSB= God peak when goku stopped beerus' last attack>god 100%/ssj post God.
Doing this, ssb has a x24'000'000 multiplier in the movies for me

Ultra instinct :

Damn, i can't see my scaling now and I don't precisely remember. Anyway, I'm pretty ti have omen 1 at ssb x10'000 and omen 2 at ssb x20'000 in the anime.
Omen 3 is much stronger due to it forcing jiren to 100% and Mui is 10x that imo

I don't remember what set of multipliers i use in the manga , but i remember that I have Mui at omen x2,5 at the ToP and at omen x10 in the moro arc

I hope to had been exhaustive.
I feel like if i Say here where do i get numerically with dbgt/dbs Power levels, someone will get a stroke.
Better to not talk about dragon ball heroes ones, i swear
Lol

Also i don't wanna be rude, even if i know i can seem It sometimes. I'm Just too harsh in some occasions, that's It. I can't control that. Is not that i want to be and asshole or mean to you, i Simply don't know how to Say what i think i other ways .Just clarifying

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ZombieVito
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:33 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:35 am
wow those numbers are low for the super anime then. At least given the popular consensus and my own opinion
What's the popular consensus for SSG or Blue?

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