MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 7/19/21!)

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 4/26/21!)

Post by Mad Swami » Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:09 am

Lord Beerus wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:49 am
Super Saiyan 3 is one of the biggest narrative misfires Toriyama has ever come up with and really represents how Toriyama was creatively running on fumes in Majin Boo and was just introducing new transformations to pad out the plot.

I've gone into great detail about this in the past:
It's a great point that Goku could have defeated Majin Buu thus removing the notion that a better solution is required, but I think it could still work if you go under the idea that Goku was trying to help prepare everyone in methods outside of SSJ3 given how taxing it is, and how it isn't a guaranteed victory. However, I would concede that it might not be fully developed.

Another thing is Super Saiyan 3 doesn't ever finish the job, so it at least still handles the subversion of SSJ being the end all well. I also think part of the point is that Super Saiyan 3 barely affects the narrative. Gotenks is naive and immature so sees SSJ3 as all he needs. He doesn't get the job done and instead just fights with Buu for a while eventually adding fuel to the fire. It works as a literal moment where the next generation learns from the mistakes of the previous, in this case SSJ3, through first hand experience.

The Spirit Bomb being used to destroy Buu as opposed to just one blast from Gohan is used as the technique is a surefire way to destroy Buu completely. It also involves everyone as opposed to what a climax with just the young hybrids would amount to.

Those are at least my thoughts. SSJ3 isn't perfect, but I don't think it's one of the hinderences to the Buu saga IMO

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 4/26/21!)

Post by Mystic Buu » Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:13 am

I never thought too much about the reason why does SS3 shorten Goku's time on Earth before this video. I guess the only logical explanation is that it drains life energy like Kikoho, but I'm not sure if that was ever stated.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 4/26/21!)

Post by Mad Swami » Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:29 am

Video was good and I agree with a lot of the points made, but one thing I will say I always thought the reason Goku never used SSJ3 against Vegeta, aside from sparing his pride, is that transforming into it releases so much energy that it probably would have wakened Majin Buu by itself.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 4/26/21!)

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Mon Apr 26, 2021 3:31 pm

If someone is reading the manga for the first time with little or almost no knowledge about the series and subsequent events, that person would definitely not be able to predict a new form for Goku during the Boo arc. The fight against Vegeta establishes that he and Goku were equal, and this is reinforced when Goku later admits that he would not be able to beat Boo because even Vegeta didn't succeed. There is no hint that he could be hiding something (or some character noticing strange behavior), it really feels like a last minute power up and it doesn't help the fact that it does little in the plot, and in the eventual sequel (Super) there is no development left for it with the arrival of SSG (killing any possibility of Goku developing ways to overcome the weakness of this transformation or make it more relevant).
Lord Beerus wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:49 am
And the whole "The humans need the learn to fight for themselves" message is horribly shoehorned in when you take into consideration that either Gotenks or Gohan could have been brought to Kaioshin's planet to fighting and easily Kid Boo. And how their inclusion in the final battle would have better served the main narrative theme a good chunk of the Majin Boo arc had revolved around: the new generation fighting their own battles. I mean, don't you think getting another crack at the whip against Majin Boo could have served as a great avenue for the character development Gotenks desperately needed and the personal resolution Gohan seemingly never got?
I honestly think it would be better if the idea of ​​sending Gohan and Gotenks to Kaioshin's planet with the DBs was never recognized by the story. Goku mentions this and I feel like it's Toriyama saying "I didn't forget that possibility", but it ends up hurting the story because besides the fact that it is a much more risky method, since Genki Dama is not a completely reliable idea ( certainly less reliable than using beings that are reportedly much stronger than Boo), it almost fails in the end. If Goku didn't remember that then we could just imagine in-universe explanations for that, which despite not being much better, makes Goku and Vegeta look less dumb

Sure, while the new generation finishing the job would be much better for the central theme of the arc (and a decent payoff for all the build up that Gotenks and Gohan had throughout this story), it would certainly be very anti-climatic to see them one shotting Boo, so in terms of making the ending more exciting, Genki Dama was a better option. It's a corner anyway.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 4/26/21!)

Post by WittyUsername » Mon Apr 26, 2021 4:37 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 3:31 pm
If someone is reading the manga for the first time with little or almost no knowledge about the series and subsequent events, that person would definitely not be able to predict a new form for Goku during the Boo arc. The fight against Vegeta establishes that he and Goku were equal, and this is reinforced when Goku later admits that he would not be able to beat Boo because even Vegeta didn't succeed. There is no hint that he could be hiding something (or some character noticing strange behavior), it really feels like a last minute power up and it doesn't help the fact that it does little in the plot, and in the eventual sequel (Super) there is no development left for it with the arrival of SSG (killing any possibility of Goku developing ways to overcome the weakness of this transformation or make it more relevant).
Lord Beerus wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:49 am
And the whole "The humans need the learn to fight for themselves" message is horribly shoehorned in when you take into consideration that either Gotenks or Gohan could have been brought to Kaioshin's planet to fighting and easily Kid Boo. And how their inclusion in the final battle would have better served the main narrative theme a good chunk of the Majin Boo arc had revolved around: the new generation fighting their own battles. I mean, don't you think getting another crack at the whip against Majin Boo could have served as a great avenue for the character development Gotenks desperately needed and the personal resolution Gohan seemingly never got?
I honestly think it would be better if the idea of ​​sending Gohan and Gotenks to Kaioshin's planet with the DBs was never recognized by the story. Goku mentions this and I feel like it's Toriyama saying "I didn't forget that possibility", but it ends up hurting the story because besides the fact that it is a much more risky method, since Genki Dama is not a completely reliable idea ( certainly less reliable than using beings that are reportedly much stronger than Boo), it almost fails in the end. If Goku didn't remember that then we could just imagine in-universe explanations for that, which despite not being much better, makes Goku and Vegeta look less dumb

Sure, while the new generation finishing the job would be much better for the central theme of the arc (and a decent payoff for all the build up that Gotenks and Gohan had throughout this story), it would certainly be very anti-climatic to see them one shotting Boo, so in terms of making the ending more exciting, Genki Dama was a better option. It's a corner anyway.
I was going to say that Toriyama could’ve written in some rule that Porunga can’t teleport people to the planet of the Kaioshins, but that wouldn’t have worked either, because Goku simply could’ve teleported them to the planet himself. He really did write himself into a corner with the climax.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 4/26/21!)

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Apr 26, 2021 5:09 pm

SS3 really seems like it was thought up the very moment Toriyama sat down to draw that chapter. There's little thought put into to try to justify why he didn't use it vs Vegeta, because Buu was not even in his vicinity when he pulled it out. He literally sought out to him to show him the new toy Vegeta didn't deserve to play with... and did nothing with it.
It could've been some new form he is FAAAR from mastering(like why Goku doesn't use Blue KK vs Black), or can't even access it at will(why he doesn't use UI vs Broly), maybe the energy drain could make him disappear forever because of being dead so better not waste it on a fight with Geets... and these are probably bad ideas I just came up with.

About SS3 awakening Buu just by existing, I'm not so sure. If I'm not mistaken, the one that is dealt the damage is who provides the energy for Buu. Goku says he doesn't want to take damage and wake up Buu. By that logic, SS3 would've been the perfect move to prevent the revival.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 4/26/21!)

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:06 pm

That Super Saiyan tangent really put into perspective how quickly the Super Saiyan transformation loss its importance. Escalation worked fine when power was aquired through training or weird magic stuff. But when power became linked to transformations, to keep up with his old pace, Toriyama had to introduce new forms just to invalidate him a few chapters later. With Super only having three (SSG, SSB, and Ultra Instinct) I wonder if Toriyama doesn't sometimes wish he'd limited himself to just Super Saiyan after the Freeza Arc.

Anyway, thanks for the video!
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 5/24/21!)

Post by Gaffer Tape » Mon May 24, 2021 9:26 am

Broli the Saddest Blob - Dragon Ball Dissection: Super Warriors Crushed!! I Will Be the One Who Wins

Well, I've finally reached "that" movie. You know, the one everyone hates. Broli is back, and he's a clone and a blob and a blob clone. Wacky antics with the kids. #18 is there. So what's up with this one? Is it really as bad as everyone thinks? It may come as no surprise to find out that, no, I don't think so.
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MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection Series Discussion Thread! (Updated 7/19/21!)
Current Episode: Dragon Ball's Greatest Friendship - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Majin Boo Arc Part 19!

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 5/24/21!)

Post by Cipher » Mon May 24, 2021 10:07 am

I agree with just about everything the review lays out, and it almost makes me want to watch it again, but it's always one I feel like I come away having less fun with than the sum of its parts implies I should.

I want to like it more than I do because of its cast and goofy B-movie premise, but I just don't think much of it is very entertaining in execution--either on the humor or action side. Oh well! You highlight its good points well, even if I don't feel they really rise above being potential.

Not the worst of the lot though, which 7 takes any day of the week.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 5/24/21!)

Post by Yuji » Mon May 24, 2021 11:08 am

Cipher wrote:
Mon May 24, 2021 10:07 am
I agree with just about everything the review lays out, and it almost makes me want to watch it again, but it's always one I feel like I come away having less fun with than the sum of its parts implies I should.

I want to like it more than I do because of its cast and goofy B-movie premise, but I just don't think much of it is very entertaining in execution--either on the humor or action side. Oh well! You highlight its good points well, even if I don't feel they really rise above being potential.

Not the worst of the lot though, which 7 takes any day of the week.
Personally 4 is the biggest pain to get through.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 5/24/21!)

Post by Gaffer Tape » Tue May 25, 2021 10:32 pm

Cipher wrote:
Mon May 24, 2021 10:07 am
I agree with just about everything the review lays out, and it almost makes me want to watch it again, but it's always one I feel like I come away having less fun with than the sum of its parts implies I should.

I want to like it more than I do because of its cast and goofy B-movie premise, but I just don't think much of it is very entertaining in execution--either on the humor or action side. Oh well! You highlight its good points well, even if I don't feel they really rise above being potential.

Not the worst of the lot though, which 7 takes any day of the week.
I mean, I can't even really disagree with you on any of that either. Sometimes it does almost feel like I have to give things credit because the overall quality of the movies as a whole are so low. I can't even say I really recall that much of the fighting, but there's still more to the movie that I do enjoy and find memorable than a lot of the other ones.

Still, though, if I had to choose one of the Broli trilogy, it would be movie 10.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 5/24/21!)

Post by Cipher » Wed May 26, 2021 6:22 am

Gaffer Tape wrote:
Tue May 25, 2021 10:32 pm
Still, though, if I had to choose one of the Broli trilogy, it would be movie 10.
I think I have to give it to 8 by a sliver, but 10 is definitely in my top few picks for original-run Z movies. The visuals are fantastic, and both the cast and action are well-handled.

Excited to see your thoughts on 12 whenever you get to it. At least personally, that's one where I wind up parting ways with (seemingly) most of the fandom. Though I imagine a good chunk of the episode will have to be dedicated to the novelty of what it beats the manga to.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 5/24/21!)

Post by Kid Buu » Fri May 28, 2021 2:09 am

I really wish we got more movies that weren't centered around Goku. For example, a movie set in the 1 year between Raditz and Vegeta featuring the humans as lead. Or a Vegeta in space solo movie. Always appreciated how this film attempted that.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 6/21/21!)

Post by Gaffer Tape » Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:43 am

How Humor Saved Dragon Ball - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Majin Boo Arc Part 18!

So a little detour to talk about all the comments I got regarding whether or not Goku turning Super Saiyan 3 would have awakened Boo (it wouldn't). After that, I continue the story after Goku returns to the afterlife. Here Toriyama's gags are really on fire. Not only is he as funny as he ever was, he really begins to lampoon his own series.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 6/21/21!)

Post by The Iron Fjord » Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:52 pm

The humor of the Boo Arc was always top-tier Dragon Ball humor, especially the Mr. Satan stuff.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 6/21/21!)

Post by Gaffer Tape » Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:45 am

The Iron Fjord wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:52 pm
The humor of the Boo Arc was always top-tier Dragon Ball humor, especially the Mr. Satan stuff.
Not that this is remotely related, but your avatar is so cute!
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 6/21/21!)

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:06 am

I've never found DBZ particularly funny until the Buu arc. GURETO SAIYAMAN, Buu, Rou Kaioshin, fusion antics, Gotenks&Piccolo, and Mr. Satan.

Also, I can't believe people argue SS3 would've awakened Buu. Like, how? Even if Babidi had it fix so Vegeta suffering injuries provided energy for Buu as well, then a chop to the neck from SS3 Goku would've put him to sleep immediately with minimum energy taken for the awakening.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 6/21/21!)

Post by Kid Buu » Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:04 pm

I really enjoyed Gotenks. His attacks are creative and his intereactions with Piccolo and Super Buu are gold.
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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 6/21/21!)

Post by Majin Buu » Sun Jul 04, 2021 12:42 am

Agreed. The Buu arc is at its best when it's lampooning Dragon Ball in some way. Even when it's at its most "stereotypically Dragon Ball", Toriyama still goes for the irreverent gag when he can.

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Re: MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 6/21/21!)

Post by lancerman » Sat Jul 17, 2021 5:36 pm

Just to piggyback on the SSJ3 discussion, it's worth noting that Toriyama never really had SSJ3 in mind for being the decisive coup de grace for the big bad. When he first introduced it, he was still considering having the younger generation of characters finish off Boo. When it comes up again in the final battle, Toriyama takes it off the table immediatly.

It may make more sense to consider SSJ3 to be along the lines of the flawed transformations in the Cell arc where Toriyama hyper exaggerated those forms to make them look really cool and undermine them later.

I think part of what makes it different is because in this case Toriyama gives it the SSJ3 name and thus puts it in line with the arc ending transformations and that creates the expectation that this needs to be important. But before their was SSJ and then the weird SSJ form that Gohan hit when he unlocked his hidden power. In fact, for all we knew at the time there was only the optimal SSJ form for all the Saiyan characters and then Gohan had this one exceptional form associated with his hidden power that had been teased for several arcs. Once Toriyama named it SSJ2, it was only to establish SSJ3 has the next phase. Which in itself has it's own kind of absudity because now it's this goofy numbered thing and this the third phase of it.

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