Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[ahill1]

The kids were in the Mighty Mask costume and its contraints.

[ekrolo2]

The kids were in the Mighty Mask costume and its contraints.

Fair point. Though the only real statement we have to judge Base Saiyan's is Beerus' statement in BoG so I kind of go with that as the default one. I know there's some evidence that apparently puts Base Saiyans above Piccolo in the Boo Saga but unless Gohan & Goku already did so in the Cell Games, there's no way that can work with Vegeta touting SSJ2 Gohan from before as a benchmark for Goku's SSJ2 power.

[ahill1]

I have base Goten and base Chibi Trunks around #18's level and base Goku [Boo saga] almost at #16's level. But to each his own.

[ZombieVito]

Only Kibito's battle power, meaning "ki level," was specifically said to be similar to Gohan's. But not necessarily equal, just strong enough to be a challenge for him. Gohan's training with the Z-sword was revealed to have helped his "arm strength," so I'd guess that's what lifting it in the first place was about too. So Kibito's power level is somewhat less than Gohan's, who being part Saiyan probably also has an extra edge on him in physical strength. Maybe even a big one since Kibito's an older dude from a race that's more about mystic powers than brute strength. Hence Gohan can (barely) lift the sword while Kibito can't.

Gohan — PL: 10, Strength: 12
Kibito — PL: 8, Strength: 6

Ta-daaah~ Everything explained, everything fits together, no haughty "dumb silly guidebooks are dumb and wrong" spiels necessary.

Works for me! I like the idea that equal power levels don't necessarily translate to equal stats.

Agreed. Look at 17 and Piccolo, both were equal but 17 was faster and Piccolo hit harder.

[Hugo Boss]

It isn't so much as "the guidebooks are crappy and wrong!" more like what is the reason for that statement in the first place?
To me it just seems like they read, what Gohan thought to himself and deemed it good enough.
Looking at the statement critically, Gohan was only speculating, as ahill1 points out, so there's good reason for it to be ignored, when Kibito later on shows incapable of picking up the Z-sword unlike the father-son duo.

Also, while I agree that individuals can have varying levels in different departments of the body, I don't buy this should make Kibito incapable of picking up the sword at least. I can understand him dropping the sword, if his arms are weaker than Gohan's, but failing to pick up the sword should not be beyond him. If we look at it realistically it's basically a deadlift, where you use not just the arms, but pretty much every major muscle group, so Kibito has no excuse for failure.

I agree with you. There are some strength-related bits in guidebooks that seem to take some of characters own speculation at face value, like in that "Gohan-Goten same battle power" example. Contextualizing is also important.

[Khin]

Are you serious? when Gohan cannot even sense Kibito's chi and everyone is unsure at his power? And yes, Kibito being on base Gohan's level contradicts the manga, since the former can't even lift the Zeta sword, yet the latter can move it around with some difficulty.

Like i said before,lifting strength =/= Power Level.Just like how speed =/= power level.50% Final Form Freeza can carry an entire island whereas Boo Arc Base Goku can't even lift 40 tons without turning SSj.And where was it stated that Kibito's ki can't be sensed ? It was only Kaioshin that is confirmed.

Spoiler:

Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P10.2
Context: as Piccolo and Kaioshin's match begins
Vegeta: “We’ll finally know: just how much is his battle power, which we haven’t even been able to estimate?...”

[apex_pretador]

Are you serious? when Gohan cannot even sense Kibito's chi and everyone is unsure at his power? And yes, Kibito being on base Gohan's level contradicts the manga, since the former can't even lift the Zeta sword, yet the latter can move it around with some difficulty.

Like i said before,lifting strength =/= Power Level.Just like how speed =/= power level.50% Final Form Freeza can carry an entire island whereas Boo Arc Base Goku can't even lift 40 tons without turning SSj.And where was it stated that Kibito's ki can't be sensed ? It was only Kaioshin that is confirmed.

Spoiler:

Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P10.2
Context: as Piccolo and Kaioshin's match begins
Vegeta: “We’ll finally know: just how much is his battle power, which we haven’t even been able to estimate?...”

Agreed , and no kaioshin EVER could lift the Z sword

[ekrolo2]

Finally got around to doing a Boo Saga PL list and I've no doubt some are gonna take exception to what I do with Vegetto.

Spoiler:

PRE-25TH TENKAICHI BUDOKAI

Gohan - 56 000 000
Super Saiyan - 2 800 000 000
Super Saiyan 2 - 5 600 000 000

Goten - 45 000 000
Super Saiyan - 2 250 000 000

Trunks - 45 500 000
Super Saiyan - 2 275 000 000

Videl - 30
Post training - 60

25TH TENKAICHI BUDOKAI & BOO'S AWAKENING

Goku - 85 000 000
Super Saiyan - 4 250 000 000
Super Saiyan 2 - 8 500 000 000

Vegeta - 82 000 000
Super Saiyan - 4 100 000 000
Majin SSJ - 4 250 000 000
Majin SSJ2 - 8 500 000 000

Gohan - 58 000 000
Super Saiyan - 3 100 000 000
Super Saiyan 2 - 6 200 000 000
Vs Dabura - 2 700 000 000 (Note! I'm working under the assumption Gohan is only an SSJ during the fight due to a lack of sparks! As a workaround, I'm guessing Kibito's healing didn't restore Gohan to full fighting power.)

Goten - 47 000 000
Super Saiyan - 2 350 000 000

Trunks - 47 500 000
Super Saiyan - 2 375 000 000

Piccolo - 1 700 000 000

Kibito - 60 000 000

Supreme Kai - 2 300 000 000

Yamu - 80

Spopovich - 80

Dabura - 2 800 000 000

Pui Pui - Weaker than Vegeta

Yakon - 40 000 000

Initial Fat Boo - 5 000 000 000

BOO'S RAMPAGE & FUSION SAGA

Vegeta's Kamikaze Explosion - 12 000 000 000

Max Power Fat Boo - 32 000 000 000

Super Saiyan 3 Goku - 34 000 000 000

Post-Z-Sword Gohan - 15 000 000 000

Grey Boo - 50 000 000 000

Initial Super Boo - 50 000 000 000

Gotenks (Pre-ROSAT) - 945 000 000
Failed Fusions - Beneath Farmer With Shotgun
Super Saiyan (Pre-ROSAT) - 47 250 000 000
Base Form (Post-ROSAT) - 1 100 000 000 (Note! Piccolo didn't know that they can transform after fusing so him stating Gotenks improved from before is referring to his previous base form in this list.)
Super Saiyan (Post-ROSAT) - 55 000 000 000
Super Saiyan 3 - 440 000 000 000

Ultimate/Mystic/Fantastic Gohan - 650 000 000 000

Kibito Kai - 5 000 000 000

Max Power Super Boo - 430 000 000 000
Bootenks - 870 000 000 000
Booccolo - 431 800 000 000
Boohan - 1 081 800 000 000

Vegetto - 60 000 000 000 (Note! Base Vegetto never fought Boohan! He immediately transforms and later comments on that he's surprised by how easily he's beating Boohan. If his base was really close to Boohan's, he'd have no reason to be.)
Super Saiyan - 3 000 000 000 000

Buff Boo - 500 000 000 000

Initial Kid Boo - 4 000 000 000

THE FINAL BATTLE

Kid Boo - 36 000 000 000
No Fat Boo - 24 000 000 000

Fat Boo - 12 000 000 000

Vegeta - 82 000 000
Super Saiyan - 4 100 000 000
Super Saiyan 2 - 8 200 000 000

Goku - 85 000 000
Super Saiyan 3 - 32 000 000 000 (Note! Goku tries forcing his max SSJ3 power and it backfires on him, for this reason, I think he can access most of it but not all with a living body.)
Burned out - 500 000
Spirit Bomb - 24 000 500 000
Spirit Bomb + SSJ + Restored Power - 28 250 000 000

Mister Satan - Maximum

End of Z

Goku - 100 000 000
Vs Oob - 10 0000

Oob - 2/3
Vs Goku - 10 000

Vegeta - 97 000 000

Goten - 42 000 000

Trunks - 42 500 000

Gohan - 480 000 000

Piccolo - 1 900 000 000

[Doctor.]

I think the difference between Gohan and Gotenks/Boo should be a tad higher than that. Boo's strength will increase 2x when he absorbs Gotenks, you can fit Gohan in there nicely and make him like 1.5x stronger than Boo. After all, he was stomping him.

[ekrolo2]

I think the difference between Gohan and Gotenks/Boo should be a tad higher than that. Boo's strength will increase 2x when he absorbs Gotenks, you can fit Gohan in there nicely and make him like 1.5x stronger than Boo. After all, he was stomping him.

You're right. I've pumped Gohan up to 650 billion which, even with Super Boo's strength still puts him at about three times weaker than Vegetto.

[Lord Beerus]

Mister Satan - Maximum

Broly would like a word with you.

[ekrolo2]

Mister Satan - Maximum

Broly would like a word with you.

I don't much look like Goku so I don't think the one word he knows would come up

[Lord Beerus]

Mister Satan - Maximum

Broly would like a word with you.

I don't much look like Goku so I don't think the one word he knows would come up

Your avatar is good enough for him.

[LightBing]

How does Grey Boo gets such an increase just by eating/absorbing Fat Boo? When you seem to use the pure addition theory for Boo's absorption's?

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Has anyone ever bothered to make a Kiri list?

http://s15.zetaboards.com/Shinden_no_Fu ... 8103252/1/

[ekrolo2]

Your avatar is good enough for him.

Touche

How does Grey Boo gets such an increase just by eating/absorbing Fat Boo? When you seem to use the pure addition theory for Boo's a
absorption's?

Honestly, I don't really understand what's going on with Grey Boo so I kind of just half-assed this part. Is there any explanation for why Boo apparently has a gargantuan load of power just stashed away?

[ahill1]

Good list, Mike. If Goku at 3,000 kiris was his 100% at FPSSJ, I'd have:


Cell Games

Piccolo - 1,200

Super Saiyan Trunks - 1,320
Super Saiyan Vegeta - 1,350

Cell Juniors - 1,380

FPSSJ Goku - 2,025
- (Teleportation Kamehameha) - 4,000
- (post Kamehameha) - 1,720
- (post rapid chi blast) - 1,000

Cell (vs Goku) - 2,250
- (Kamehameha) - 3,750
- (post-regeneration) - 1,822
- (post barrier) - 1,620
- (senzu recovery) - 2,250
- (real speed) - 2,700
- (Full-power) - 3,600
- (post Zenkai) - 4,860

FPSSJ Gohan - 2,700
- (Super Saiyan 2) - 5,400



Boo saga


FPSSJ Goten - 1,910
FPSSJ Trunks - 1,940

Dabra - 4,050

FPSSJ Gohan - 2,025
- (Super Saiyan 2) - 4,050

FPSSJ Vegeta - 2,430
- (Super Saiyan 2) - 4,860

FPSSJ Goku - 3,000
- (Super Saiyan 2) - 6,000

Majin Vegeta - 6,000

[miguelnuva1]

Finally got around to doing a Boo Saga PL list and I've no doubt some are gonna take exception to what I do with Vegetto.

Spoiler:

PRE-25TH TENKAICHI BUDOKAI

Gohan - 56 000 000
Super Saiyan - 2 800 000 000
Super Saiyan 2 - 5 600 000 000

Goten - 45 000 000
Super Saiyan - 2 250 000 000

Trunks - 45 500 000
Super Saiyan - 2 275 000 000

Videl - 30
Post training - 60

25TH TENKAICHI BUDOKAI & BOO'S AWAKENING

Goku - 85 000 000
Super Saiyan - 4 250 000 000
Super Saiyan 2 - 8 500 000 000

Vegeta - 82 000 000
Super Saiyan - 4 100 000 000
Majin SSJ - 4 250 000 000
Majin SSJ2 - 8 500 000 000

Gohan - 58 000 000
Super Saiyan - 3 100 000 000
Super Saiyan 2 - 6 200 000 000
Vs Dabura - 2 700 000 000 (Note! I'm working under the assumption Gohan is only an SSJ during the fight due to a lack of sparks! As a workaround, I'm guessing Kibito's healing didn't restore Gohan to full fighting power.)

Goten - 47 000 000
Super Saiyan - 2 350 000 000

Trunks - 47 500 000
Super Saiyan - 2 375 000 000

Piccolo - 1 700 000 000

Kibito - 60 000 000

Supreme Kai - 2 300 000 000

Yamu - 80

Spopovich - 80

Dabura - 2 800 000 000

Pui Pui - Weaker than Vegeta

Yakon - 40 000 000

Initial Fat Boo - 5 000 000 000

BOO'S RAMPAGE & FUSION SAGA

Vegeta's Kamikaze Explosion - 12 000 000 000

Max Power Fat Boo - 32 000 000 000

Super Saiyan 3 Goku - 34 000 000 000

Post-Z-Sword Gohan - 15 000 000 000

Grey Boo - 50 000 000 000

Initial Super Boo - 50 000 000 000

Gotenks (Pre-ROSAT) - 945 000 000
Failed Fusions - Beneath Farmer With Shotgun
Super Saiyan (Pre-ROSAT) - 47 250 000 000
Base Form (Post-ROSAT) - 1 100 000 000 (Note! Piccolo didn't know that they can transform after fusing so him stating Gotenks improved from before is referring to his previous base form in this list.)
Super Saiyan (Post-ROSAT) - 55 000 000 000
Super Saiyan 3 - 440 000 000 000

Ultimate/Mystic/Fantastic Gohan - 650 000 000 000

Kibito Kai - 5 000 000 000

Max Power Super Boo - 430 000 000 000
Bootenks - 870 000 000 000
Booccolo - 431 800 000 000
Boohan - 1 081 800 000 000

Vegetto - 60 000 000 000 (Note! Base Vegetto never fought Boohan! He immediately transforms and later comments on that he's surprised by how easily he's beating Boohan. If his base was really close to Boohan's, he'd have no reason to be.)
Super Saiyan - 3 000 000 000 000

Buff Boo - 500 000 000 000

Initial Kid Boo - 4 000 000 000

THE FINAL BATTLE

Kid Boo - 36 000 000 000
No Fat Boo - 24 000 000 000

Fat Boo - 12 000 000 000

Vegeta - 82 000 000
Super Saiyan - 4 100 000 000
Super Saiyan 2 - 8 200 000 000

Goku - 85 000 000
Super Saiyan 3 - 32 000 000 000 (Note! Goku tries forcing his max SSJ3 power and it backfires on him, for this reason, I think he can access most of it but not all with a living body.)
Burned out - 500 000
Spirit Bomb - 24 000 500 000
Spirit Bomb + SSJ + Restored Power - 28 250 000 000

Mister Satan - Maximum

End of Z

Goku - 100 000 000
Vs Oob - 10 0000

Oob - 2/3
Vs Goku - 10 000

Vegeta - 97 000 000

Goten - 42 000 000

Trunks - 42 500 000

Gohan - 480 000 000

Piccolo - 1 900 000 000

I'd bump SSJ3 Goku up. Goku says he was trying to destroy Kid Buu from the start but the way Kid Buu fights and how Goku was acting in the fight leads me to believe Goku is superior.

Goku reacted to Frieza and Cell much worse than he did Buu and Vegeta even thought Buu was garbage to Super saiyan 3.

[DanielSSJ]

Your avatar is good enough for him.

Touche

How does Grey Boo gets such an increase just by eating/absorbing Fat Boo? When you seem to use the pure addition theory for Boo's a
absorption's?

Honestly, I don't really understand what's going on with Grey Boo so I kind of just half-assed this part. Is there any explanation for why Boo apparently has a gargantuan load of power just stashed away?

Sure. It all has to do with the Kaoshin that Pure Boo absorbed. I operate under the asumption that when Boo absorbs the Kaioshin, its more like a fusion than a simple absorbtion, if that makes any sense. Absorbing the burly and strong southern Kaioshin increases Boos power by a huge margin, whereas absorbing the plump and gentle Dai Kaioshin weakened him. The power that Boo lost didn't just dissappear. Rather, it was kinda sealed away by Dai Kaioshin's presence, unable to be used. When the fat and thin Boos recombine with evil in charge, Boo now has access to much more (but not all of) the power that the southern Kaioshin granted.

In numbers:
- Pure Boo: 10
- Boo + southern Kaioshin (buff Boo): 50
- Boo + Dai Kaioshin (fat Boo): 5
--- angered to the point of splitting: 10
--- minus evil: 4
- pure evil Boo: 6
- pure evil Boo + good Boo (evil Boo): 30
--- Gotenks absorbed: 65
--- Gohan absorbed: 75

Does this help?

[ZombieVito]

Can you guys post your numbers for Future Trunks [Before he travels to the past], Future Gohan and Future Vegeta?