Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

ekrolo2 · Post by **ekrolo2** » Mon Nov 14, 2016 1:14 pm

Blackstripe wrote:Hasn't anyone attempted the Future Trunks Arc yet? What's wrong? You guys are acting like it's difficult to powerscale or something!

I did but for the manga only.

LightBing · Post by **LightBing** » Mon Nov 14, 2016 1:14 pm

Blackstripe wrote:Hasn't anyone attempted the Future Trunks Arc yet? What's wrong? You guys are acting like it's difficult to powerscale or something!

I'll try to do it when the manga concludes the arc. That is if the manga maintains it's standards regarding power levels, which I trust it will.
Never touching the anime, I honestly don't know how people even try to make sense of it. At least to me it's clear, there's no effort to give consistency and apply the minimal logic Dragon Ball always had.

ekrolo2 · Post by **ekrolo2** » Mon Nov 14, 2016 1:21 pm

LightBing wrote:
Blackstripe wrote:Hasn't anyone attempted the Future Trunks Arc yet? What's wrong? You guys are acting like it's difficult to powerscale or something!
I'll try to do it when the manga concludes the arc. That is if the manga maintains it's standards regarding power levels, which I trust it will.
Never touching the anime, I honestly don't know how people even try to make sense of it. At least to me it's clear, there's no effort to give consistency and apply the minimal logic Dragon Ball always had.

I actually want to try and do a list of the Black arc episode by episode and just basing things on what's on-screen, no BS headcannons allowed. It'll be funny as hell.

LightBing · Post by **LightBing** » Mon Nov 14, 2016 1:36 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
LightBing wrote:
Blackstripe wrote:Hasn't anyone attempted the Future Trunks Arc yet? What's wrong? You guys are acting like it's difficult to powerscale or something!
I'll try to do it when the manga concludes the arc. That is if the manga maintains it's standards regarding power levels, which I trust it will.
Never touching the anime, I honestly don't know how people even try to make sense of it. At least to me it's clear, there's no effort to give consistency and apply the minimal logic Dragon Ball always had.
I actually want to try and do a list of the Black arc episode by episode and just basing things on what's on-screen, no BS headcannons allowed. It'll be funny as hell.

Do it!

Can't wait to see your justifications. I predict twenty two power of friendship power ups. I just hope you don't lose your sanity and start discussing the difference between the power of love vs the power of rage and it's effects on the characters...

Alruneia · Post by **Alruneia** » Mon Nov 14, 2016 1:50 pm

Attempting to put power levels on the Zamasu arc, at least the anime version, is a mess. I mean, take a look at the power level discussion thread in the Super section. It's not exactly pretty. The list would also be filled with different Trunks levels as he continually lets the voice of love take him higher and becomes able to fight even Big Bio-Zamasu. The multiplier must be all over the place. Not only that, we also have to consider Beerus' power and whether Vegito and Zamasu surpass him or not, and we have no evidence either way here.
I believe that the manga will show a more consistent story power-wise, so until then, I'll refrain from making power levels for this arc.

ekrolo2 · Post by **ekrolo2** » Mon Nov 14, 2016 3:42 pm

Well, I haven't done that anime list yet (I need some serious booze for that one) but I did make a new one for the anime that now includes Black based on manga info and the anime's comment on SSRose:

Goku - 28 (Base)
- 1,400 (Super Saiyan)
- 2,800 (Super Saiyan 2)
- 11,200 (Super Saiyan 3)
-2,800,000 (Super Saiyan God, 2.8 on the God Scale, x100,00 Base)
-5,600,000 (Super Saiyan Blue, 5.6 on the God Scale, x2 SSGod)

Vegeta - 27,8 (Base)
- 13,90 (Super Saiyan)
- 27,80 (Super Saiyan 2)
- 5,560,00 (Super Saiyan Blue)

Future Trunks - 28.2 mil (Base)
- 14,10 bill (Super Saiyan)
- 28,20 bill (Super Saiyan 2)
- 9,870 bill (Full-Power Super Saiyan 2, x3.5 SS2)

Goku Black - 130,000 (Base)
- 6,500,000 (SSRose, x50 Base)

ZombieVito · Post by **ZombieVito** » Mon Nov 14, 2016 8:18 pm

Blackstripe wrote:Hasn't anyone attempted the Future Trunks Arc yet? What's wrong? You guys are acting like it's difficult to powerscale or something!

I'll post them later but you're right.

There's no problem with the powerscale in the anime at all apart from the two base theory but even that just bloats the list a bit. There's nothing awful like Yamcha beating Olibu.

GreatSaiyaman123 · Post by **GreatSaiyaman123** » Tue Nov 15, 2016 3:38 pm

Blackstripe wrote:Hasn't anyone attempted the Future Trunks Arc yet? What's wrong? You guys are acting like it's difficult to powerscale or something!

ahill1 wrote:Okay. Thanks dbgtFO and Kaboom.

What power levels given in the guidebooks do you disagree with? How would you re-write them? That's the power levels given, as far as I'm aware:

Goku (beginning of DB) : 10
Tsuru-sennin : 120
Chi-Chi (23rd Budokai) : 130
Roshi (22nd Budokai) : 139
Tenshinhan (22nd Budokai) : 180
Goku (22nd Budokai) : 180
Karin-sama : 190
Cyborg Tao Pai Pai : 210
Kami-sama : 220
Piccolo Daimao (youth restored) : 260
Chaozu (Saiyan saga) : 610
Goku (23rd Budokai) : 910
Yajirobe (Saiyan saga) : 970
Mr. Popo : 1,030
Yamcha (Saiyan saga) : 1,480
Kuririn (Saiyan saga) : 1,770
Tenshinhan (Saiyan saga) : 1,830
Piccolo (Saiyan saga) : 3,500
Nappa : 4,000
Goku (post Kaio training) : 8,000
Kuririn (vs Ginyus) : 13,000
Gohan (vs Ginyus) : 14,000
Dodoria : 22,000
Zarbon : 23,000
Vegeta (vs Ginyus) : 30,000
Kuririn (Freeza saga) : 75,000
Gohan (Freeza saga) : 200,000
Vegeta (Freeza saga) : 250,000
Goku (vs Freeza) : 3,000,000
Freeza (100%) : 120,000,000
Goku SSJ : 150,000,000

If there weren't these numbers, what'd be yours?

I disagree with a lot of them. Kid Goku is only twice stronger than a human? King Piccolo > BoZ Tien > Kami? That's all bullshit. I don't know if Goku and Tien at the 22nd Budokai is accurate. Roshi was equal to Tien, and his PL is 139, but maybe this is him suppressed. Tao at 210 can be his Super Dodonwave, and 23th Budokai Goku at 910 can be his Super Kamehameha. About Z, Raditz in 1500 can be a unseen full power, and Nappa at 4000 is his base. Krillin is very close to Tenshinhan. He should be closer to Yamcha, they always almost equal before Z. And Piccolo should be around 2500, Vegeta and Nappa were impressed with Gohan at 2800. Goku is more than 8000. Dodoria and Zarbon are too close to Vegeta. I can see Krillin at 75000 and Gohan at 200k if this is him after his Zenkai from 2nd form Freeza, and Vegeta should be at 400k-500k against Freeza.

My (new, i updated my power levels, and if you want to see the olds it's on the page 425) numbers are:
Goku (beginning of DB) : 50
Tsuru-sennin : 120
Chi-Chi (23rd Budokai) : 130
Roshi (22nd Budokai) : 175
Tenshinhan (22nd Budokai) : 175
Goku (22nd Budokai) : 180
Karin-sama : 190
Cyborg Tao Pai Pai : 190
Kami-sama : 320
Piccolo Daimao (youth restored) : 240
Chaozu (Saiyan saga) : 900
Goku (23rd Budokai) : 364 (But his Super Kamehameha is 910)
Yajirobe (Saiyan saga) : 1,000
Mr. Popo : 1,030 (After the Z Warriors train)
Yamcha (Saiyan saga) : 1,350
Kuririn (Saiyan saga) : 1,500
Tenshinhan (Saiyan saga) : 1,800
Piccolo (Saiyan saga) : 2,500
Nappa : 4,000 (base, his fullpower is 7,000)
Goku (post Kaio training) : 8,250
Kuririn (vs Ginyus) : 16,000
Gohan (vs Ginyus) : 18,000
Dodoria : 20,000
Zarbon : 22,500
Vegeta (vs Ginyus) : 30,000
Kuririn (Freeza saga) : 75,000
Gohan (Freeza saga) : 200,000
Vegeta (Freeza saga) : 450,000
Goku (vs Freeza) : 3,000,000
Freeza (100%) : 120,000,000 (Injured by the Spirit Bomb, not injured is 150,000,000)
Goku SSJ : 125,000,000 (Exhausted by the Kaioken x20)

Blackstripe wrote:Hasn't anyone attempted the Future Trunks Arc yet? What's wrong? You guys are acting like it's difficult to powerscale or something!

I want to do a power scale, maybe power levels. But just after the end of the saga. I have a power scale of DBS, DBGT and some strong characters of DBZ. Do you guys want to see?

Blackstripe · Post by **Blackstripe** » Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:48 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:I want to do a power scale, maybe power levels. But just after the end of the saga. I have a power scale of DBS, DBGT and some strong characters of DBZ. Do you guys want to see?

Go for it.

GreatSaiyaman123 · Post by **GreatSaiyaman123** » Wed Nov 16, 2016 6:39 pm

Blackstripe wrote:
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:I want to do a power scale, maybe power levels. But just after the end of the saga. I have a power scale of DBS, DBGT and some strong characters of DBZ. Do you guys want to see?
Go for it.

Here is:
(OBS: Multipliers don't work here)

Spoiler:

ekrolo2 · Post by **ekrolo2** » Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:15 pm

LightBing wrote:Do it!
Can't wait to see your justifications. I predict twenty two power of friendship power ups. I just hope you don't lose your sanity and start discussing the difference between the power of love vs the power of rage and it's effects on the characters...

Okay, here's (some) of that list I promised!

Episode 47!

[spoiler]Not much happens, we don't really get a sense for Trunks' Base strength now or his SS form(s) as we don't see them here, all we know is Black is freakishly powerful... And probably dicking around with him. The only questionable thing you could say is Trunks not using his SS form(s) but he was shown to be pretty tired when he meets Mai so.... exhaustion?

Base Black > Base (possibly tired) Trunks[/spoiler]

Episode 48!

[spoiler]Trunks transforms into a Super Saiyan! Or maybe a Super Saiyan 2? Who the fuck knows with Toei, they were always bad with the lightning. Black shows off his penchant for dicking around with his opponents and thoroughly trounces Trunks here no problemo.

Base Black > Super Saiyan 1 (or is it 2) Future Trunks[/spoiler]

Episode 49!

[spoiler]The flashback further establishes that Black can in fact beat up Future Trunks as a Super Saiyan 1 (I assume it IS just 1 since they show the lightning for 2 here during his sparring match with Goku. Why doesn't he have lightning in the flashback? Erm.... Rage boost? Wait.... I don't think it works like that....

But anyway, Future Trunks is as strong as Post-God Absorption Goku in SS1 and SS2! Yes, really, like, really, actually a match for him! Don't give me that two Base theory crap people, he's taking on a Goku who is, by my conservative estimates, 500,000 times stronger than his Boo Arc self who was already much, much stronger than Trunks was at the Cell Games. So, Trunks is borderline God Tier thanks to.... nothing!

Post God, SS3 Goku > SS2 Future Trunks = Post God, SS2 Goku[/spoiler]

Episode 50!

[spoiler]The infamous Goku Black invades the past and takes on SS2 Goku but both are noted to be holding back, this is reaffirmed by Trunks and Goku's conversation after Black leaves where Black is closer to Goku's SS3 power.

Base Black => Post God, SS3 Goku > SS2 Future Trunks[/spoiler]

That's all for now! Gonna need more booze and time for the next batch!

ZombieVito · Post by **ZombieVito** » Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:20 pm

I will never understand why people still think SSJ Goku after BoG is equal to SSG.

He's obviously not based on Kaio's wording on episode 24, among other examples.

DanielSSJ · Post by **DanielSSJ** » Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:11 am

ZombieVito wrote:I will never understand why people still think SSJ Goku after BoG is equal to SSG.

He's obviously not based on Kaio's wording on episode 24, among other examples.

What wording is that? My watching of Super has been sporadic at best, especially the Battle of Gods and Resurrection F retelling stuff.

apex_pretador · Post by **apex_pretador** » Thu Nov 17, 2016 7:25 am

DanielSSJ wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:I will never understand why people still think SSJ Goku after BoG is equal to SSG.

He's obviously not based on Kaio's wording on episode 24, among other examples.
What wording is that? My watching of Super has been sporadic at best, especially the Battle of Gods and Resurrection F retelling stuff.

I think he said something like goku reached the power of SSG again (when he turned blue) without help.

brett wheeler · Post by **brett wheeler** » Fri Nov 18, 2016 1:23 am

I have a general idea for the power lvls of the last episode but thats it

[spoiler]ssj vegito buu sega ( trust me its important to my list )= 12,000,000,000,000
base goku (last fight of the trunks arc )= 13,000,000,000,000
base trunks ( last fight )=15,000,000,000,000
base vegeta ( last fight )=22,000,000,000,000
ssb goku ( last fight )=1,250,000,000,000,000,000,000
pseudo ssb trunks ( last fight )=1,350,000,000,000,000,000,000
ssb vegeta ( last fight )=2,120,000,000,000,000,000,000
merged zamasu=30,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
ssb goku limits broken kamehameha=30,000,000,000,000,000,100,000,000
merged zamasu disoriented from goku kamehameha=1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
goku ssb arms broke=1,100,000,000,000,000,000,000
merged zamasu less disoriented=2,100,000,000,000,000,000,000
ssbkk*2 goku arms broke=2,200,000,000,000,000,000,000
merged zamasu enraged and mutating/improving=50,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
base vegito ( trunks arc ) 7,200,000,000,000,000
ssb vegito=70,500,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
giant merged zamasu=65,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
super trunks ki sword=1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
supr trunks spirit sword=67,100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000[/spoiler]

not perfect but best I could come up with what do you guys think

ekrolo2 · Post by **ekrolo2** » Sat Nov 19, 2016 11:27 am

In what'll probably be a hole-ridden, vain attempt at making something in the anime work, I've decided to look back at the various facts we know from the Super anime and determine just how much of a boost Super Saiyan Blue, and by extension, Super Saiyan God give to Goku.

Firstly, we know Base Saiyans are inferior to Max Power Freeza, you can try to argue this and there's some evidence for it but for the sake of not complicating this convoluted shit heap, let's just take Beerus' word for it, okay? Okay. We also know that fusion, regardless if its Potara or the dance, can't beat Beerus, meaning Goku HAS to be quite a big chunk of power stronger than a hypothetical SS3 Vegetto.

My formula for the Potara fusion is A + B x 250. I have both Goku & Vegeta at a hundred million a piece when the Boo arc happens and I don't think they increased much at all, if anything, they're probably taped out by now so I won't give them any increase by the time BoG happens. This means that Vegetto has a Base power of about 50 billion (or just above SS1 Gotenks) and a Super Saiyan form equalling 2.5 trillion, with SS2 it's 5 trillion and with SS3 it's 20 trillion. This is relevant as I believe Post-Absorption Goku equals SS Vegetto in strength.

To reach just that level, Goku would need to double his power (that's where Vegeta comes in being his equal according to my formula) multiply that 250 then multiply that by 50, making for an increase of x25,000 Base power to just reach SS Vegetto but we still have one more factor to consider: SSG = SS.

We know that Goku's power as a Super Saiyan roughly equals to his SSGod strength, meaning that when he powers down, using the SEG multipliers, Goku becomes 50 times weaker in Base but still fairly powerful. He breaks Beerus' death ball in Base which... Makes no fucking sense but let's ignore that too so I don't lobotomize myself with the end of my desk, okay? Okay.

Lastly, this brings us to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan Blue. We know fuck all with a side of fuck yourself about this form besides the fact it's a SSGod turning on his version of a Super Saiyan, so, I'm gonna assume SSBlue is 50 times stronger than SSGod.

Using some of Gohan & Freeza's later feats as a way to roughly calculate Goku's Base strength, here are the numbers I've come to:

Pre-God Absorption Goku
[spoiler]Base - 100
Super Saiyan 1 - 5000
Super Saiyan 2 - 10,000
Super Saiyan 3 - 40,000[/spoiler]

Post-God Absorption Goku
[spoiler]Base = SS Vegetto - 2,500,000
Super Saiyan 1 = Super Saiyan God - 125,000,000 (Pre-Absorption Base x1,250,000, obviously. Once absorption is complete, SS is x50 again)
Super Saiyan 2 - 250,000,000
Super Saiyan 3 - 1,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue (SSGSS) - 6,250,000,000 (SSGod/SS1 x50)[/spoiler]
Here's where shit gets tricky: Goku Black. His high Base form for a while made me question how can Blue be x2500 Post-God Base if Black's Base form is, at least, SS3 tier, Post-God. The only way I can really rationalize it is to basically GT Black's Rose Multiplier. I subscribe to the idea that Black isn't getting Zenkai but that he's unlocking Goku's power through battle, meaning he's just getting access to power that's already there but unavailable to him. Upon fighting Goku, he gains access to his own version of Super Saiyan, allowing him to unlock this remaining power but shrinking his multiplier in the process for Rose.

We also know that Zamasu likely had to wait a while before enacting his plans, meaning that the Goku who's body he stole is likely stronger than the Goku we have in the main timeline. So here's how I deal with his power when episode 57 happens:

[spoiler]Black - 1,400,000,000
SSRose - 7,000,000,000 (X5 Base Multiplier or the height of his stolen Goku body).[/spoiler]

So, what do you think? I'm sure there's plenty of bullshit that keeps this list from making any sense whatsoever but I had to try

ZombieVito · Post by **ZombieVito** » Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:16 pm

So Goku grew over 50 times stronger than Super Saiyan God from BoG to RoF without anyone, not even Whis or Beerus saying a word?

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

Regular Super Saiyan is not equal to Super Saiyan God after the battle with Beerus.

ekrolo2 · Post by **ekrolo2** » Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:20 pm

ZombieVito wrote:So Goku grew over 50 times stronger than Super Saiyan God from BoG to RoF without anyone, not even Whis or Beerus saying a word?

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Regular Super Saiyan is not equal to Super Saiyan God after the battle with Beerus.

How is it not? Beerus even says Goku hasn't lost any power in episode 13 when Goku reverts to SS, is there something I'm missing here?

ZombieVito · Post by **ZombieVito** » Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:36 pm

Why is Kaio surprised Goku reached god level without the ritual?

Why didn't a single character say he got dozens of times stronger?

Why was it said that Goku surpassed Super Saiyan God with Blue if Goku already did that with Super Saiyan 2/3?

Once the fight ended Goku couldn't access the full power of Super Saiyan God without training with Wish. It's the only explanation that makes sense.

Post by **Kaboom** » Sat Nov 19, 2016 3:04 pm

The way I've figured it for ages now is that when Goku went Super Saiyan near the end of his fight with Beerus, all he managed to do at the time was use the form to temporarily prolong his grip on the fading god-power. That power was absorbed into Goku's being and is still under there somewhere, but it's not actually integrated with and channeled by Super Saiyan form at will until after Goku's trained under Whis, and that's what Super Saiyan Blue is.

Kanzenshuu

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