Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Koitsukai]

Is Tien maybe about as strong as Frieza on Namek in the Cell saga? 120,000,00? Or around that at least?

He rushes to fight A17 and 18 despite Vegeta, Piccolo, and Trunks rushing the androids. Sure it could just be his character, not wanting to sit on the sidelines and not contribute, but he is treated as bad as the others. Not worse or anything. I am not saying he is their equal, but could Toriyama think Tien and Piccolo (Before Kami fusion) are relative in power?

I can't recall him being blown away by Piccolo's power or mentioning feeling dwarfed. That only happens later, when Piccolo refuses with Kami.

I don't know, could an Earthling like Tien reach that power in base without the use of the kikoho or the Shin Kikoho?

I would love Tien to be stronger than base Goku and Vegeta, but is that possible?

I don't think so, no. I'm not even sure Piccolo was as strong, but Tenshinhan I would definitely say he was not.
He was in awe at SS Goku vs the fat android, even when Goku was already suffering from his illness he couldn't tell a healthy SS from one that was having a heart attack, so I assume that he is like a guy on the street staring at a skyscraper not being able to tell the 120th floor from the 150th. Boy that was a weird analogy.
IIRC, he was quite "respectful" of 20's power, something a Namek-SS tier fella would not do, nor the crew would be intimidated while having "Freeza" by their side. He never considers himself at all on par with any of the SS, I think it was he who said something along the lines of "not even SS Trunks could do a thing, the sword that killed Freeza bla bla".

Could an earthling reach that power without outside help? mmm I don't think so. It hasn't happened so far, so for post-Namek guys I'd say it was out of their league. I'm not sure if pre-ToP Gohan was as strong as FF Freeza just in his base, let alone Tenshinhan.

I think Ten's ship has sailed a long time ago. By that arc, I think he started to be seriously outclassed, and right now he is just lumped together with Yamcha. Literally. When Goku came to fight Moro, first he saved Krilin, then went to save Yamcha and Tenshinhan from some guy.

[Mad Swami]

Is Tien maybe about as strong as Frieza on Namek in the Cell saga? 120,000,00? Or around that at least?

He rushes to fight A17 and 18 despite Vegeta, Piccolo, and Trunks rushing the androids. Sure it could just be his character, not wanting to sit on the sidelines and not contribute, but he is treated as bad as the others. Not worse or anything. I am not saying he is their equal, but could Toriyama think Tien and Piccolo (Before Kami fusion) are relative in power?

I can't recall him being blown away by Piccolo's power or mentioning feeling dwarfed. That only happens later, when Piccolo refuses with Kami.

I don't know, could an Earthling like Tien reach that power in base without the use of the kikoho or the Shin Kikoho?

I would love Tien to be stronger than base Goku and Vegeta, but is that possible?

I don't think so, no. I'm not even sure Piccolo was as strong, but Tenshinhan I would definitely say he was not.
He was in awe at SS Goku vs the fat android, even when Goku was already suffering from his illness he couldn't tell a healthy SS from one that was having a heart attack, so I assume that he is like a guy on the street staring at a skyscraper not being able to tell the 120th floor from the 150th. Boy that was a weird analogy.
IIRC, he was quite "respectful" of 20's power, something a Namek-SS tier fella would not do, nor the crew would be intimidated while having "Freeza" by their side. He never considers himself at all on par with any of the SS, I think it was he who said something along the lines of "not even SS Trunks could do a thing, the sword that killed Freeza bla bla".

Could an earthling reach that power without outside help? mmm I don't think so. It hasn't happened so far, so for post-Namek guys I'd say it was out of their league. I'm not sure if pre-ToP Gohan was as strong as FF Freeza just in his base, let alone Tenshinhan.

I think Ten's ship has sailed a long time ago. By that arc, I think he started to be seriously outclassed, and right now he is just lumped together with Yamcha. Literally. When Goku came to fight Moro, first he saved Krilin, then went to save Yamcha and Tenshinhan from some guy.

Thats fair. I think however Goku and Trunks were much stronger than Frieza by that point. Roughly 2X him imo maybe less. So honestly it would still be fair for him to be fairly amazed and what not. you're probably correct but I would certainly say there's the slimest chance

[Koitsukai]

Is Tien maybe about as strong as Frieza on Namek in the Cell saga? 120,000,00? Or around that at least?

He rushes to fight A17 and 18 despite Vegeta, Piccolo, and Trunks rushing the androids. Sure it could just be his character, not wanting to sit on the sidelines and not contribute, but he is treated as bad as the others. Not worse or anything. I am not saying he is their equal, but could Toriyama think Tien and Piccolo (Before Kami fusion) are relative in power?

I can't recall him being blown away by Piccolo's power or mentioning feeling dwarfed. That only happens later, when Piccolo refuses with Kami.

I don't know, could an Earthling like Tien reach that power in base without the use of the kikoho or the Shin Kikoho?

I would love Tien to be stronger than base Goku and Vegeta, but is that possible?

I don't think so, no. I'm not even sure Piccolo was as strong, but Tenshinhan I would definitely say he was not.
He was in awe at SS Goku vs the fat android, even when Goku was already suffering from his illness he couldn't tell a healthy SS from one that was having a heart attack, so I assume that he is like a guy on the street staring at a skyscraper not being able to tell the 120th floor from the 150th. Boy that was a weird analogy.
IIRC, he was quite "respectful" of 20's power, something a Namek-SS tier fella would not do, nor the crew would be intimidated while having "Freeza" by their side. He never considers himself at all on par with any of the SS, I think it was he who said something along the lines of "not even SS Trunks could do a thing, the sword that killed Freeza bla bla".

Could an earthling reach that power without outside help? mmm I don't think so. It hasn't happened so far, so for post-Namek guys I'd say it was out of their league. I'm not sure if pre-ToP Gohan was as strong as FF Freeza just in his base, let alone Tenshinhan.

I think Ten's ship has sailed a long time ago. By that arc, I think he started to be seriously outclassed, and right now he is just lumped together with Yamcha. Literally. When Goku came to fight Moro, first he saved Krilin, then went to save Yamcha and Tenshinhan from some guy.

Thats fair. I think however Goku and Trunks were much stronger than Frieza by that point. Roughly 2X him imo maybe less. So honestly it would still be fair for him to be fairly amazed and what not. you're probably correct but I would certainly say there's the slimest chance

To be fair with Tenshinhan, he does have the capacity through kikoho to hit way above Namek SS. Cell was only stalled but I imagine somebody around the power level of the androids suffering some kind of damage.
Remove Cell and the ROSAT, and he probably could've been a great help for Goku, Piccolo and Gohan vs 16, 17 and 18.

[Noah]

Considering that Beerus confirmed early BoG Goku would not defeat Freeza in his base, so the Saiyans only have surpassed Namek Freeza after Whis training?

What about others like Gohan, Cabba, Caulifla and Kale?

[Koitsukai]

Considering that Beerus confirmed early BoG Goku would not defeat Freeza in his base, so the Saiyans only have surpassed Namek Freeza after Whis training?

What about others like Gohan, Cabba, Caulifla and Kale?

It's hard to tell because RoF really fucked everything up, the manga retconned it, the anime didn't although it did when the official arcs landed.

The U6 saiyans fought ToP Freeza, Caulifla took a beating from FF Freeza(SS Gohan pretty much died vs 1st form Freeza), so she should be at least close to Namek Freeza. Namek SS Goku is said to not even come close to SS Caulifla by Freeza.
Kale in her base is stronger than U6 SS, so she sure is stronger than Namek Freeza and maybe current Freeza too.
Cabba was close to Vegeta in the U6 arc, so I can see him putting up a decent fight at the very least vs Namek Freeza.


Gohan currently should be stronger, he wasn't that far from his father(who wasn't that far from Freeza) before DBS, so after the ToP and training to defend Earth he should confortably be above Namek SS level.

[p-hyvo]

Is it Cell Games SSJ2 Gohan > SSJ2 Vegeta (Pre Majin)?

Same tier, but basing on what vegeta says I'd say ssj2 vegeta>=ssj2 gohan

[p-hyvo]

OFFICIAL UNITS & SOURCES FOR POWER LEVELS:


<MASSIVE, needlessly-quoted post snipped>

(X) hardly doubt

That's too overthought to be something from toriyama. He doesn't think by logarithmic calculation, I'm sure he doesn't even know what a logarithm is. That 6-10-15 was to take for what it was at the times of bog, and now is completely invalid. Simplify, not everything in daizenshuu et similia Is true too. Everyone can make wrong statements

[Mad Swami]

I think Piccolo was at best in between SSJ1 tier and SSJ2 tier in the Buu saga
So if Goku and Vegeta as SSJ 2's are like 6,000,000,000+

Piccolo would be like 4,300,000,000 or something. Everyone has different numbers but thats my thought. He's more likely high SSJ 1 tier.

[p-hyvo]

I think Piccolo was at best in between SSJ1 tier and SSJ2 tier in the Buu saga
So if Goku and Vegeta as SSJ 2's are like 6,000,000,000+

Piccolo would be like 4,300,000,000 or something. Everyone has different numbers but thats my thought. He's more likely high SSJ 1 tier.

Piccolo Is implied to be weaker than base form saiyans 2 times in buu saga

Vegeta says he'll win the tournament in base even if 18 and piccolo are there

Dabura describes the 3 saiyan as "incredibile energies" and spits on piccolo, implying he's weaker than them

[Mad Swami]

I think Piccolo was at best in between SSJ1 tier and SSJ2 tier in the Buu saga
So if Goku and Vegeta as SSJ 2's are like 6,000,000,000+

Piccolo would be like 4,300,000,000 or something. Everyone has different numbers but that's my thought. He's more likely high SSJ 1 tier.

Piccolo Is implied to be weaker than base form Saiyans 2 times in Buu saga

Vegeta says he'll win the tournament in base even if 18 and piccolo are there

Dabura describes the 3 Saiyan as "incredible energies" and spits on piccolo, implying he's weaker than them

I highly doubt that. Apparently Majin Piccolo was supposed to happen meaning he has to be fairly strong. I also take Vegeta's comment as more just hyperbolic speech probably critiquing how soft others have gotten. Not to mention there is no need for them to be that strong

[p-hyvo]

I think Piccolo was at best in between SSJ1 tier and SSJ2 tier in the Buu saga
So if Goku and Vegeta as SSJ 2's are like 6,000,000,000+

Piccolo would be like 4,300,000,000 or something. Everyone has different numbers but that's my thought. He's more likely high SSJ 1 tier.

Piccolo Is implied to be weaker than base form Saiyans 2 times in Buu saga

Vegeta says he'll win the tournament in base even if 18 and piccolo are there

Dabura describes the 3 Saiyan as "incredible energies" and spits on piccolo, implying he's weaker than them

I highly doubt that. Apparently Majin Piccolo was supposed to happen meaning he has to be fairly strong. I also take Vegeta's comment as more just hyperbolic speech probably critiquing how soft others have gotten. Not to mention there is no need for them to be that strong

Doubt what you want, but the manga implies that.

Yes, vegeta is arrogant, but piccolo and 18 are too and none of them said nothing.

And no, majin piccolo wasn't supposed to appear. It is just a videogame what if story or something.

Buu saga has an exaggerated scaling, I acknowledge that.
we see goten and trunks facing 18 in base and scaring the hell out of her by shooting as suppressed ki blast as ssjs, vegeta implies to be stronger than her and Dabura implies that base Saiyans are stronger than piccolo, so it is all coherent

Base Adult Saiyans>piccolo>>18>base kids

Stop using headcanon and start using actual feats and dialogues for scaling

If piccolo is stronger than base Saiyans during buu saga, then why Dabura """kills"" him by spitting on him to bait Saiyans and doesn't spit on one of the Saiyans to bait the other 2+ piccolo?

I remind you that Dabura didn't know anything about super Saiyan and such, and still he thought that base Saiyans>piccolo by a considerable amount.

Plus, the base Saiyans really do seem even stronger than shin, considering how the diety reacted to them beating babidi's henchmen. And shin is stronger than piccolo.

And listen, I am talking as a piccolo fan. He's literally my favorite character, but there is no escape from buu saga

[Mad Swami]

Piccolo Is implied to be weaker than base form Saiyans 2 times in Buu saga

Vegeta says he'll win the tournament in base even if 18 and piccolo are there

Dabura describes the 3 Saiyan as "incredible energies" and spits on piccolo, implying he's weaker than them

I highly doubt that. Apparently Majin Piccolo was supposed to happen meaning he has to be fairly strong. I also take Vegeta's comment as more just hyperbolic speech probably critiquing how soft others have gotten. Not to mention there is no need for them to be that strong

Doubt what you want, but the manga implies that.

Yes, vegeta is arrogant, but piccolo and 18 are too and none of them said nothing.

And no, majin piccolo wasn't supposed to appear. It is just a videogame what if story or something.

Buu saga has an exaggerated scaling, I acknowledge that.
we see goten and trunks facing 18 in base and scaring the hell out of her by shooting as suppressed ki blast as ssjs, vegeta implies to be stronger than her and Dabura implies that base Saiyans are stronger than piccolo, so it is all coherent

Base Adult Saiyans>piccolo>>18>base kids

Stop using headcanon and start using actual feats and dialogues for scaling

I heard that it(Majin Piccolo) was supposed appear but its hearsay not fact. What about Piccolo challenging Dabura aware of his power? What about BoG Goku base being stated as weaker than Frieza. We only saw base Goku capable of beating Yakon who has a PL of 40,000,000

[p-hyvo]

I highly doubt that. Apparently Majin Piccolo was supposed to happen meaning he has to be fairly strong. I also take Vegeta's comment as more just hyperbolic speech probably critiquing how soft others have gotten. Not to mention there is no need for them to be that strong

Doubt what you want, but the manga implies that.

Yes, vegeta is arrogant, but piccolo and 18 are too and none of them said nothing.

And no, majin piccolo wasn't supposed to appear. It is just a videogame what if story or something.

Buu saga has an exaggerated scaling, I acknowledge that.
we see goten and trunks facing 18 in base and scaring the hell out of her by shooting as suppressed ki blast as ssjs, vegeta implies to be stronger than her and Dabura implies that base Saiyans are stronger than piccolo, so it is all coherent

Base Adult Saiyans>piccolo>>18>base kids

Stop using headcanon and start using actual feats and dialogues for scaling

I heard that it(Majin Piccolo) was supposed appear but its hearsay not fact. What about Piccolo challenging Dabura aware of his power? What about BoG Goku base being stated as weaker than Frieza. We only saw base Goku capable of beating Yakon who has a PL of 40,000,000

Wow, yakon. Imagine taking v-jump power levels as something serious.

Literally, v-jump gets everything wrong when talking about power levels.is nothing to really consider.

As for bog, all you need is to contextualize that line :
Beerus never saw fullpower freezer infront of him and had no idea of his power, we know he has seen only first form freezer.

Goku was training and chilling, not fighting. The logic is pretty much the same as the scene with tarble in the 2008 special. Goku wasn't fullpower, he was weak

Not to consider that that statement contraddicts buu and cell Saga's scaling as a whole. It's too messy and made with ignorance by beerus to consider it.
Don't take everything at face value as it is disconnected from everything else, try to think in universe and contextualize scenes .
We can kinda take as a proof of that not really being the case the fact that that particular line of dialogue between beerus and goku just isn't that in the manga, toriyama/ toyotaro erased it in their version of bog.

Piccolo challenging Dabura was an anime thing, no trace of that in the manga, and still the story went in the same way, piccolo petrified to bait Saiyans. Nothing really changed

[Mad Swami]

Doubt what you want, but the manga implies that.

Yes, vegeta is arrogant, but piccolo and 18 are too and none of them said nothing.

And no, majin piccolo wasn't supposed to appear. It is just a videogame what if story or something.

Buu saga has an exaggerated scaling, I acknowledge that.
we see goten and trunks facing 18 in base and scaring the hell out of her by shooting as suppressed ki blast as ssjs, vegeta implies to be stronger than her and Dabura implies that base Saiyans are stronger than piccolo, so it is all coherent

Base Adult Saiyans>piccolo>>18>base kids

Stop using headcanon and start using actual feats and dialogues for scaling

I heard that it(Majin Piccolo) was supposed appear but its hearsay not fact. What about Piccolo challenging Dabura aware of his power? What about BoG Goku base being stated as weaker than Frieza. We only saw base Goku capable of beating Yakon who has a PL of 40,000,000

Wow, yakon. Imagine taking v-jump power levels as something serious.

Literally, v-jump gets everything wrong when talking about power levels.is nothing to really consider.

As for bog, all you need is to contextualize that line :
Beerus never saw fullpower freezer infront of him and had no idea of his power, we know he has seen only first form freezer.

Goku was training and chilling, not fighting. The logic is pretty much the same as the scene with tarble in the 2008 special. Goku wasn't fullpower, he was weak

Not to consider that that statement contraddicts buu and cell Saga's scaling as a whole. It's too messy and made with ignorance by beerus to consider it.
Don't take everything at face value as it is disconnected from everything else, try to think in universe and contextualize scenes .
We can kinda take as a proof of that not really being the case the fact that that particular line of dialogue between beerus and goku just isn't that in the manga, toriyama/ toyotaro erased it in their version of bog.

Piccolo challenging Dabura was an anime thing, no trace of that in the manga, and still the story went in the same way, piccolo petrified to bait Saiyans. Nothing really changed

I don't see how V Jump's statment is that wrong, aren't they the ones who stated the most widly accepted things. Like the times 50 multiplier or Goku's power level on Namek.

Beerus probably knew Frieza's full power. He wasn't suprised seeing Frieza's final form in that video Whis shows him. It indicates he has some knoweledge of it. Not to mention I doubt Goku was holding back as much as he was with Tarble. Not to mention its specifically conveyed he was holding back in Yo son Goku, nothing really feeds that in BoG. Piccolo was SSJ1 tier by the end of the Cell games. He held out against a Cell Jr. who has as much power as Cell maybe a tad less. There is no concrete evidence to suggest such wild gaps. Also in a meta note, Piccolo is Toriyama's favourite, I doubt he'd make him so weak in comparison.

[Koitsukai]

Piccolo Is implied to be weaker than base form Saiyans 2 times in Buu saga

Vegeta says he'll win the tournament in base even if 18 and piccolo are there

Dabura describes the 3 Saiyan as "incredible energies" and spits on piccolo, implying he's weaker than them

I highly doubt that. Apparently Majin Piccolo was supposed to happen meaning he has to be fairly strong. I also take Vegeta's comment as more just hyperbolic speech probably critiquing how soft others have gotten. Not to mention there is no need for them to be that strong

Doubt what you want, but the manga implies that.

Yes, vegeta is arrogant, but piccolo and 18 are too and none of them said nothing.

And no, majin piccolo wasn't supposed to appear. It is just a videogame what if story or something.

Buu saga has an exaggerated scaling, I acknowledge that.
we see goten and trunks facing 18 in base and scaring the hell out of her by shooting as suppressed ki blast as ssjs, vegeta implies to be stronger than her and Dabura implies that base Saiyans are stronger than piccolo, so it is all coherent

Base Adult Saiyans>piccolo>>18>base kids

Stop using headcanon and start using actual feats and dialogues for scaling

I think the headcanon is from your part. Also you should review that attitude because it is NOT how people debate in Kanzenshuu.

The saiyans were hiding their ki, so Dabura couldn't possibly feel their actual power. Whatever Dabura "felt" had nothing to do with their base strenght, which were at least 50x weaker than Dabura -hardly remarkable to comment on-, so he must've meant their SS forms.
Also we know BoG implied the base forms weren't Freeza level, so I'll take Toriyama's word over somebody's interpretation of an inconsistency.

Piccolo wasn't in the plane at the time Vegeta blew smoke up his own ass, and even if he was, not engaging him wouldn't be new either. When was the last time Piccolo started yelling at him "No, you can't beat me, I'm stronger and my dad can beat yours too? or 18 for that matter? she isn't someone to participate in those silly arguments either, or any argument to be fair. Her silence means nothing.

[p-hyvo]

I heard that it(Majin Piccolo) was supposed appear but its hearsay not fact. What about Piccolo challenging Dabura aware of his power? What about BoG Goku base being stated as weaker than Frieza. We only saw base Goku capable of beating Yakon who has a PL of 40,000,000

Wow, yakon. Imagine taking v-jump power levels as something serious.

Literally, v-jump gets everything wrong when talking about power levels.is nothing to really consider.

As for bog, all you need is to contextualize that line :
Beerus never saw fullpower freezer infront of him and had no idea of his power, we know he has seen only first form freezer.

Goku was training and chilling, not fighting. The logic is pretty much the same as the scene with tarble in the 2008 special. Goku wasn't fullpower, he was weak

Not to consider that that statement contraddicts buu and cell Saga's scaling as a whole. It's too messy and made with ignorance by beerus to consider it.
Don't take everything at face value as it is disconnected from everything else, try to think in universe and contextualize scenes .
We can kinda take as a proof of that not really being the case the fact that that particular line of dialogue between beerus and goku just isn't that in the manga, toriyama/ toyotaro erased it in their version of bog.

Piccolo challenging Dabura was an anime thing, no trace of that in the manga, and still the story went in the same way, piccolo petrified to bait Saiyans. Nothing really changed

I don't see how V Jump's statment is that wrong, aren't they the ones who stated the most widly accepted things. Like the times 50 multiplier or Goku's power level on Namek.

Beerus probably knew Frieza's full power. He wasn't suprised seeing Frieza's final form in that video Whis shows him. It indicates he has some knoweledge of it. Not to mention I doubt Goku was holding back as much as he was with Tarble. Not to mention its specifically conveyed he was holding back in Yo son Goku, nothing really feeds that in BoG. Piccolo was SSJ1 tier by the end of the Cell games. He held out against a Cell Jr. who has as much power as Cell maybe a tad less. There is no concrete evidence to suggest such wild gaps. Also in a meta note, Piccolo is Toriyama's favourite, I doubt he'd make him so weak in comparison.

Just literally, everything else stated in vjump about power levels is wrong, so why consider that ?

I remember you that v-jump is the same place in Wich is told that ssj3 buu saga Goku is 1'200'000'000 and broly is 1'400'000'000, doesn't seem to right to me lmao. It is contraddictory.

That was a video, you can't tell someone's power level by a video. You can't feel it, and still base Goku wasn't fullpower, again, and that line isn't there in the manga as well, again.

Damn, I sound like a broken record now. Just stop replying, you're going by headcanon while I use facts.

This discussion seems useless considering you aren't going to take my advices anyway

[Mad Swami]

Wow, yakon. Imagine taking v-jump power levels as something serious.

Literally, v-jump gets everything wrong when talking about power levels.is nothing to really consider.

As for bog, all you need is to contextualize that line :
Beerus never saw fullpower freezer infront of him and had no idea of his power, we know he has seen only first form freezer.

Goku was training and chilling, not fighting. The logic is pretty much the same as the scene with tarble in the 2008 special. Goku wasn't fullpower, he was weak

Not to consider that that statement contraddicts buu and cell Saga's scaling as a whole. It's too messy and made with ignorance by beerus to consider it.
Don't take everything at face value as it is disconnected from everything else, try to think in universe and contextualize scenes .
We can kinda take as a proof of that not really being the case the fact that that particular line of dialogue between beerus and goku just isn't that in the manga, toriyama/ toyotaro erased it in their version of bog.

Piccolo challenging Dabura was an anime thing, no trace of that in the manga, and still the story went in the same way, piccolo petrified to bait Saiyans. Nothing really changed

I don't see how V Jump's statment is that wrong, aren't they the ones who stated the most widly accepted things. Like the times 50 multiplier or Goku's power level on Namek.

Beerus probably knew Frieza's full power. He wasn't suprised seeing Frieza's final form in that video Whis shows him. It indicates he has some knoweledge of it. Not to mention I doubt Goku was holding back as much as he was with Tarble. Not to mention its specifically conveyed he was holding back in Yo son Goku, nothing really feeds that in BoG. Piccolo was SSJ1 tier by the end of the Cell games. He held out against a Cell Jr. who has as much power as Cell maybe a tad less. There is no concrete evidence to suggest such wild gaps. Also in a meta note, Piccolo is Toriyama's favourite, I doubt he'd make him so weak in comparison.

Just literally, everything else stated in vjump about power levels is wrong, so why consider that ?

I remember you that v-jump is the same place in Wich is told that ssj3 buu saga Goku is 1'200'000'000 and broly is 1'400'000'000, doesn't seem to right to me lmao. It is contraddictory.

That was a video, you can't tell someone's power level by a video. You can't feel it, and still base Goku wasn't fullpower, again, and that line isn't there in the manga as well, again.

Damn, I sound like a broken record now. Just stop replying, you're going by headcanon while I use facts.

This discussion seems useless considering you aren't going to take my advices anyway

Come down guy I'm not using headcannon. No SSJ3 Goku is not just 1 billion. But look at a bunch of aspects. Piccolo in this Moro arc has been stated as Buu saga SSj3 level. Its a common consensus. How could he get that strong if only like 7 years prior he was only at their base level. Not to mention, my point was Beerus was not suprised by him having that form. Beerus must have known about his transformations. He never goes "Oh that's Frieza? Bit different then I remember." He just goes "Yep thats Frieza"

[p-hyvo]

I highly doubt that. Apparently Majin Piccolo was supposed to happen meaning he has to be fairly strong. I also take Vegeta's comment as more just hyperbolic speech probably critiquing how soft others have gotten. Not to mention there is no need for them to be that strong

Doubt what you want, but the manga implies that.

Yes, vegeta is arrogant, but piccolo and 18 are too and none of them said nothing.

And no, majin piccolo wasn't supposed to appear. It is just a videogame what if story or something.

Buu saga has an exaggerated scaling, I acknowledge that.
we see goten and trunks facing 18 in base and scaring the hell out of her by shooting as suppressed ki blast as ssjs, vegeta implies to be stronger than her and Dabura implies that base Saiyans are stronger than piccolo, so it is all coherent

Base Adult Saiyans>piccolo>>18>base kids

Stop using headcanon and start using actual feats and dialogues for scaling

I think the headcanon is from your part. Also you should review that attitude because it is NOT how people debate in Kanzenshuu.

The saiyans were hiding their ki, so Dabura couldn't possibly feel their actual power. Whatever Dabura "felt" had nothing to do with their base strenght, which were at least 50x weaker than Dabura -hardly remarkable to comment on-, so he must've meant their SS forms.
Also we know BoG implied the base forms weren't Freeza level, so I'll take Toriyama's word over somebody's interpretation of an inconsistency.

Piccolo wasn't in the plane at the time Vegeta blew smoke up his own ass, and even if he was, not engaging him wouldn't be new either. When was the last time Piccolo started yelling at him "No, you can't beat me, I'm stronger and my dad can beat yours too? or 18 for that matter? she isn't someone to participate in those silly arguments either, or any argument to be fair. Her silence means nothing.

Nah man, I'm no headcanon.

I've already explained why the bog thing isn't to take at face value, and literally every power scaler I know and respect thinks the same for what matters.

Well yes, saiyans and piccolo were both suppressed but still them>piccolo considerably

Seeing the kids compete with 18 should prevent anyone from thinking that the adults can in anyway, shape or form be weaker than freezer.

Toriyama is a simple minded man, his scaling is clear. He obviously meant base Saiyans to be stronger than piccolo in buu saga. Dialogues and facts speak for that.

Stop taking a lone at face value isolating it from any sort of context, really.

I'm into db scaling from a a lot of time, and I can guarantee that if you follow both dialogues and facts only talking about cell saga, it is impossibile to obtain that base Cell games Saiyans are weaker than freezer.

It is just impossible if you don't bend something to your will to obtain it, meaning to do it or not.

Literally, base future trunks makes cell fly away at the end of the saga, that should speak for it. No way someone way weaker than freezer could do such thing. I know, he then turns ssj to finish him, but anyway he can perfectly be just a little stronger than him in base but not enough to finish him easily. All fits, that's what toriyama drew so no mistake.

[p-hyvo]

I don't see how V Jump's statment is that wrong, aren't they the ones who stated the most widly accepted things. Like the times 50 multiplier or Goku's power level on Namek.

Beerus probably knew Frieza's full power. He wasn't suprised seeing Frieza's final form in that video Whis shows him. It indicates he has some knoweledge of it. Not to mention I doubt Goku was holding back as much as he was with Tarble. Not to mention its specifically conveyed he was holding back in Yo son Goku, nothing really feeds that in BoG. Piccolo was SSJ1 tier by the end of the Cell games. He held out against a Cell Jr. who has as much power as Cell maybe a tad less. There is no concrete evidence to suggest such wild gaps. Also in a meta note, Piccolo is Toriyama's favourite, I doubt he'd make him so weak in comparison.

Just literally, everything else stated in vjump about power levels is wrong, so why consider that ?

I remember you that v-jump is the same place in Wich is told that ssj3 buu saga Goku is 1'200'000'000 and broly is 1'400'000'000, doesn't seem to right to me lmao. It is contraddictory.

That was a video, you can't tell someone's power level by a video. You can't feel it, and still base Goku wasn't fullpower, again, and that line isn't there in the manga as well, again.

Damn, I sound like a broken record now. Just stop replying, you're going by headcanon while I use facts.

This discussion seems useless considering you aren't going to take my advices anyway

Come down guy I'm not using headcannon. No SSJ3 Goku is not just 1 billion. But look at a bunch of aspects. Piccolo in this Moro arc has been stated as Buu saga SSj3 level. Its a common consensus. How could he get that strong if only like 7 years prior he was only at their base level. Not to mention, my point was Beerus was not suprised by him having that form. Beerus must have known about his transformations. He never goes "Oh that's Frieza? Bit different then I remember." He just goes "Yep thats Frieza"

"Common consensus" between whom?

Literally, I've never heard that thing. To be honest, thinking that moro arc piccolo is still a buu saga tier character sounds ridiculous. His feats aren't to distant from gohan's, and he's stronger than 17 who was well over ssj3 top goku in power.

Wake up, dragon ball usa shonen manga. One written by a simpleton, moreover.
Even not considering how much toyotaro and present day toriyama sucks at scaling, the logic between dragon ball has always been that every character is as strong as the plot demands in a certain moment, no matter if it makes sense or not with the previously displayed power from that character

[Mad Swami]

Just literally, everything else stated in vjump about power levels is wrong, so why consider that ?

I remember you that v-jump is the same place in Wich is told that ssj3 buu saga Goku is 1'200'000'000 and broly is 1'400'000'000, doesn't seem to right to me lmao. It is contraddictory.

That was a video, you can't tell someone's power level by a video. You can't feel it, and still base Goku wasn't fullpower, again, and that line isn't there in the manga as well, again.

Damn, I sound like a broken record now. Just stop replying, you're going by headcanon while I use facts.

This discussion seems useless considering you aren't going to take my advices anyway

Come down guy I'm not using headcannon. No SSJ3 Goku is not just 1 billion. But look at a bunch of aspects. Piccolo in this Moro arc has been stated as Buu saga SSj3 level. Its a common consensus. How could he get that strong if only like 7 years prior he was only at their base level. Not to mention, my point was Beerus was not suprised by him having that form. Beerus must have known about his transformations. He never goes "Oh that's Frieza? Bit different then I remember." He just goes "Yep thats Frieza"

"Common consensus" between whom?

Literally, I've never heard that thing. To be honest, thinking that moro arc piccolo is still a buu saga tier character sounds ridiculous. His feats aren't to distant from gohan's, and he's stronger than 17 who was well over ssj3 top goku in power.

Wake up, dragon ball usa shonen manga. One written by a simpleton, moreover.
Even not considering how much toyotaro and present day toriyama sucks at scaling, the logic between dragon ball has always been that every character is as strong as the plot demands in a certain moment, no matter if it makes sense or not with the previously displayed power from that character

Sure but you don't need Piccolo to be that weak in the Buu saga. You don't need A18 to be so much weaker than the SSJ kids. She can be scared because their age, she can be worried about underestimating them, she could actually be an even match for Trunks as an SSJ if not stronger. That doesn't change anything. It makes things make more sense. Dabura also thought Buu was weak only to be eaten by him. Dabura is beyond base Saiyans yet talked them up. Dabura says silly things. Or, more likley is they are aware of SSJ level power due to feeling Gohan's display at the tournament.