Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Nov 30, 2020 7:44 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 7:28 pm
Nodeo-Franvier wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:32 am
How strong do you think Super perfect Cell is in comparison to SSJ2 Gohan? Personally I think Cell zenkai is similar to Vegeta early zenkai that give him30% powerboost.
About half as strong as a fully powered SSJ2 Gohan, given how Gohan could keep hiim at bay after losing over half of his power.
Koitsukai wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 7:19 pm
Quick question:
How do you guys think Trunks and Goten, by the end of the Buu arc, fare compared to their elders at the beginning of the Buu arc?

Could post-arc Goten take pre-arc Gohan? What about post-arc Trunks and pre-arc Vegeta? in similar forms, that is.
Going by other posts, do you mean right after Majin Boo's death? Then they're about the same as they've been throughout the arc, but I think Goten managed to close the gap between them. Their time at the Rosat was mostly focused on further perfecting fusion and improving as Gotenks rather than individually.
Yes, the difference between their introduction and after training in the ROSAT. It's safe to say that if Gotenks improved, then the fusees must've improved as well, even if little.
Also the zenkai boost after fighting Buu, and something I have never been sure about if exists: zenkai after being revived.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon Nov 30, 2020 10:07 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 7:44 pm
Yes, the difference between their introduction and after training in the ROSAT. It's safe to say that if Gotenks improved, then the fusees must've improved as well, even if little.
Also the zenkai boost after fighting Buu, and something I have never been sure about if exists: zenkai after being revived.
Well I don't think near death boosts can happen if you actually die (In fact, I don't think they happen at all after the Freeza Arc). I mean it doesn't make any sense: You didn't almost die, you flat you died, plain and simple. But as food for thought, Vegeta does suggest he got one after being revived on Namek:
Episode: 102
Context: Vegeta is reveling in the fact that Freeza and Goku are going to be destroyed in Planet Namek’s explosion.
Vegeta: “Now that I’ve died and returned to life, I should be that much stronger.”
But of course, there's a lot of stuff with this. It's anime only, Vegeta has never died to be sure (He only theorizes he should be stronger rather than actually checking his Ki) and he was revived from his existing wounded body, rather than having his spirit put in a new body like the boys or Vegeta's own Boo Arc self were.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Nov 30, 2020 10:38 pm

It seems it works only when they are on the brink of death, not when they actually die.

Chapter: 299 (DBZ 105), P13.1
Context: after Gohan is healed by Dende
Vegeta: “Heh…Just as you’d expect of someone with Saiyan blood, after reviving his battle power has greatly risen…A-alright! Luck is turning our way just a little bit…”

This one is odd, since Gohan didn’t actually die from fighting Freeza.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:15 pm

I've been working on a comprehensive battle power list that includes both Super (the manga) and GT. I think I'm more-or-less done. I've been making battle power lists for over ten years now, and in my younger days I loved the bloated numbers rising up to the quadrillions or higher. Nowadays, however, I take a much more conservative approach to battle power numbers. As such, expect many creative and interpretative liberties (read: headcanon, reaching, shoehorning, ec) to explain away some of the more egregious power gaps in the series, especially when it comes to Super and GT. As such, while many explanations I give may seem far-fetched, I don't think they ever explicitly contradict anything. In addition, I also pick and choose guidebook information taking into account what I think fits into the lore or themes of the series/arc.

Multipliers:


Part 1:


Part 2:


Dragon Ball GT:


Dragon Ball Super:

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sun Dec 06, 2020 11:32 pm

Yuji wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:15 pm
I've been working on a comprehensive battle power list that includes both Super (the manga) and GT. I think I'm more-or-less done. I've been making battle power lists for over ten years now, and in my younger days I loved the bloated numbers rising up to the quadrillions or higher. Nowadays, however, I take a much more conservative approach to battle power numbers. As such, expect many creative and interpretative liberties (read: headcanon, reaching, shoehorning, ec) to explain away some of the more egregious power gaps in the series, especially when it comes to Super and GT. As such, while many explanations I give may seem far-fetched, I don't think they ever explicitly contradict anything. In addition, I also pick and choose guidebook information taking into account what I think fits into the lore or themes of the series/arc.

Multipliers:


Part 1:


Part 2:


Dragon Ball GT:


Dragon Ball Super:
Interesting list, I agree with 19 and 20 being below Freeza, at least their initial "forms", before absorbing energy. It's still being discussed if Piccolo reached Freeza level, I think I agree with you, he trained for 3 years with Gohan and SS Goku. He had the right motivation and the right partners.

I like your Z numbers, while I feel the base saiyans are too low for my taste, your 100x MSS theory makes up for it and we end up having pretty much the same numbers.
Although I disagree with Yakon being stronger than Goku, he was dodging everything from him and even getting caught by surprise wasn't enough to do more than rip his gi. I know Gohan said that teamwork would do it, but I have not seen nothing from Yakon to be conviced he was stronger than base Goku.
I always felt Gohan stayed at the same level as he was back in the CG, I don't want to take Vegeta's comment like Gohan's gotten weaker, but that he has not gotten stronger.
All in all, I agree, although Mr Satan should seriously be stronger. He has won the Tenkaichi Budokai, so he should at least rival Pamput, Nam, and those guys. Besides, he did kill Cell.

GT
While I don't suscribe to having new multipliers for GT, I can see why this theory has come up. I think you are right on the money with Rildo and Boo, besides, he is talking to Trunks and Pan, he wouldn't mention someone they have never met like Buuhan.
The Vegito-SS4 debate is a handful. I always thought like you, but this forum has made understand that the comparison was with a hypotehtical GT Vegito, not Z Vegito, implying SS4 and SS fusion provide the same boost. But your numbers do work.
I disagree about Gohan becoming stronger, though, not only because how sad his SS form and his brother's looked against a hungry base Goku. There is an interview of one of the writers contradicting the Perfect Files, saying Gohan has moved on from the fighting life style and has become a regular person with a family and a steady job. Until the Super 17 arc when he was suppose to do an awesome comeback that was scrapped. Similar to Goten and Trunks, who were sent to space because they were slacking on their training, also having regular lives and all that.

GT is a mess, so I commend you for giving it a go, I think out of a 100 people, we won't find two GT power lists similar to each other, this show is that nuts.

DBS
I don't think there's a problem in having BoG God Goku > SS Vegito(or SS3), and also having FT fusion > SSG. The initial comparison was between Z fusion and a brand new god form. But in even grounds, that is with the fusion having access to the same forms, fusion should be stronger, not just because of the extra form, but because the fusees will be stronger, providing a stronger fusion. I mean, if Goku and Vegeta already had achieved SSG, BoG Vegito would've had a much stronger base form than the Vegito that Goku had thought about in the movie.
Besides, I don't think fusion is linear in that sense, the base form can be skipped like in Z or it can be OP like vs Zamasu.

Aside of that, I pretty much agree with everything, this is a good list, however I disagree with UI Goku and Gogeta Blue. Goku did much better against Moro than Gogeta vs a weaker dude like Broly, to the point he didn't even need to dodge him, Moro couldn't take more than 4 punches, while Gogeta used almost every move.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:47 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 11:32 pm
Interesting list, I agree with 19 and 20 being below Freeza, at least their initial "forms", before absorbing energy. It's still being discussed if Piccolo reached Freeza level, I think I agree with you, he trained for 3 years with Gohan and SS Goku. He had the right motivation and the right partners.

I like your Z numbers, while I feel the base saiyans are too low for my taste, your 100x MSS theory makes up for it and we end up having pretty much the same numbers.
Although I disagree with Yakon being stronger than Goku, he was dodging everything from him and even getting caught by surprise wasn't enough to do more than rip his gi. I know Gohan said that teamwork would do it, but I have not seen nothing from Yakon to be conviced he was stronger than base Goku.
I always felt Gohan stayed at the same level as he was back in the CG, I don't want to take Vegeta's comment like Gohan's gotten weaker, but that he has not gotten stronger.
All in all, I agree, although Mr Satan should seriously be stronger. He has won the Tenkaichi Budokai, so he should at least rival Pamput, Nam, and those guys. Besides, he did kill Cell.

GT
While I don't suscribe to having new multipliers for GT, I can see why this theory has come up. I think you are right on the money with Rildo and Boo, besides, he is talking to Trunks and Pan, he wouldn't mention someone they have never met like Buuhan.
The Vegito-SS4 debate is a handful. I always thought like you, but this forum has made understand that the comparison was with a hypotehtical GT Vegito, not Z Vegito, implying SS4 and SS fusion provide the same boost. But your numbers do work.
I disagree about Gohan becoming stronger, though, not only because how sad his SS form and his brother's looked against a hungry base Goku. There is an interview of one of the writers contradicting the Perfect Files, saying Gohan has moved on from the fighting life style and has become a regular person with a family and a steady job. Until the Super 17 arc when he was suppose to do an awesome comeback that was scrapped. Similar to Goten and Trunks, who were sent to space because they were slacking on their training, also having regular lives and all that.

GT is a mess, so I commend you for giving it a go, I think out of a 100 people, we won't find two GT power lists similar to each other, this show is that nuts.

DBS
I don't think there's a problem in having BoG God Goku > SS Vegito(or SS3), and also having FT fusion > SSG. The initial comparison was between Z fusion and a brand new god form. But in even grounds, that is with the fusion having access to the same forms, fusion should be stronger, not just because of the extra form, but because the fusees will be stronger, providing a stronger fusion. I mean, if Goku and Vegeta already had achieved SSG, BoG Vegito would've had a much stronger base form than the Vegito that Goku had thought about in the movie.
Besides, I don't think fusion is linear in that sense, the base form can be skipped like in Z or it can be OP like vs Zamasu.

Aside of that, I pretty much agree with everything, this is a good list, however I disagree with UI Goku and Gogeta Blue. Goku did much better against Moro than Gogeta vs a weaker dude like Broly, to the point he didn't even need to dodge him, Moro couldn't take more than 4 punches, while Gogeta used almost every move.
Thanks for the response!

I've never been a fan of how much Goku & Gohan increase their base strengths for the Cell Games, through a training regimen that was supposedly based on mastering the Super Saiyan form. My theory retroactively applies to explain the Cabbe situation too, but I've been using it for almost a decade now; it was quite common back in an older forum I frequented to think that Super Saiyan multipliers could be altered with training.

That's also the basis behind the idea of GT's reduced multipliers. The anime itself gives credence to the idea that Goku can somehow "access" part of SS's power in his base form: when he powers-up in the otherworld and before Vegeta transforms in the Broly movie. Toriyama himself said he drew the manga envisioning SS's multiplier as 10x, so it seems credible to me that GT writers wrote the series interpreting SS as a smaller boost. Even GT confirms it itself, when Rild implies Goku got a little over 2x stronger by transforming.To explain away many of GT's inconsistencies, such as base Trunks defeating Motchi who defeated SS Goku, Lood being stronger than Motchi but Goku never turned SS to fight him, SS/SS2 Goku fighting Rild on equal footing but then base Goku, Pan and Trunks one shot him, SS Goku performing well against Super 17, Oozaru Vegeta crushing SS4 Goku, etc; one must think that there's little difference between the Saiyan forms.

But like I said, I think it's perfectly possible to use the standard SS multipliers AND keep the following scale, SS Vegetto = SS4 Goku > SB 2 > SB 1 > Gohan Boo > Bebi Vegeta > SS3 Goku > Base Goku >= Mr. Boo. You could theoretically do something like this if you really want to:
Some fans like this sort of approach, and I don't see any inherent problem with it. You can still fit in all the characters in the same order you want within this scale. It's just far too bloated for my taste, considering how strong Super Yi Xing Long, SS4 Gogeta and the Super characters would become with this scale (I've done this sort of list before and it always ends up with far too many zeros), so I use a bit of headcanon to achieve the exact same result I want with lesser numbers.

As for Vegetto vs SS4, the image that the guide provides is that of Z Vegetto, but even if the guide is talking about the Potara boost vs the SS4 boost (which is a valid interpretation), the power of fusion is so ridiculously high that I don't have a problem believing that Super Vegetto may be equal to SS4.

As for DBS fusion, I see where you're coming from but I like to think of fusion as linear, rather than an absurd and convenient power boost that defies consistency. Also personally, since fusion is so overpowered, it breaks most people's scales. Mine ended up so high because of Gogeta Blue. So if I can find some sort of science to it, I'm glad.

As for UI vs Gogeta Blue, personally I can go either way. I just have Gogeta slightly higher because that's the numbers the multipliers gave. If there's definitive proof that MUI Goku is stronger than Gogeta, I'd have no problem altering the numbers.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:15 pm

Yuji wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:15 pm
snip
Well surely a comprehensive list requires a comprehensive review, doesn't it?

PART I
Shouldn't Tao be a bit higher than that? He had a quite even fight with Goku most of the time, even if Goku wasn't trying that much. 63 vs 40 just seems a bit too much. And if you'll rise Tao I think you might as well pull #8 up with him, since his feat punching White into the horizon places him close to Tao.

Nothing much to say here though, since Ki usage (And thus power levels) weren't really a thing back then and any list is fine as long as it adds up to the BoZ numbers.

PART II
Piccolo said Gohan can be stronger than him if he just focuses, and Gohan proves it by clobbering Nappa pretty badly with a kick. He's definitely lower than 3,500.
And nothing wrong with Raditz being a 1,350 per see, but this is going to bite you in the ass pretty soon.

And by soon I meant right now. If Raditz should be lowered to rival the Saibamen, why not raise Freeza? He's a proper rival to Goku, stalemating him on a beam struggle and exchanging blows with him even as his Ki starts to decrease. I suggest you raise him to 135 and bump Mecha Freeza to a 150, since he did think he could take on Goku here.

Vegeta said he was stronger than Trunks, and Trunks later exchanges blows evenly with Cell before fully powering up into Grade 3 (Though it's unclear how serious Cell was going on him). Trunks is either a tiny bit weaker or considerably stronger than Vegeta, they're not equals.
Vegeta and Trunks weren't using Grade 2 in the Cell Games. They look fairly slim and obviously would follow Goku's style to get stronger. Also, how strong is Perfect Cell at full power? 3 billion?

Babidi says his power up ritual is actually a potential unlock, and given how strong Kuririn got with one I think Spopovich ought to be far higher than that. He can easily shoot Ki blasts and fly at high speeds for prolongued times, when in comparison the Z Fighters could only do that a couple times without running out of gas in Part I.
I think Gohan and Piccolo should be stronger and weaker than you gave them credit for, respectively. Gohan got the best of Dabra in close quarters (Kicking him away at the start of the fight and not only catching but breaking his sword by the end) and shrugged off his blast with minimal damage. Dabra was mostly getting by thanks to Gohan's rusty fighting style and his own magic tricks.
As for Piccolo, he just doesn't really have the means or motivation to get twice as strong in these seven years, and keeping him closer to his Cell Games power works better to highlight his inferiority compared to Kaioshin and the kids. Talking about the kids, I think you should apply the 50x multiplier to them; there's no way they could have mastered Super Saiyan with the little experience they have.

The Gotenks nerfing his really unecessary. I don't think there's any wiggle room for his power. Goku guarantees everyone Gotenks can win, and even though he admits having doubts he says their power is what makes him sure. Piccolo gives the ok to SSJ Gotenks' power (Who suspiciously defuses when trying to fight Majin Boo) and lets them rest, even saying they're going to fight as soon as they wake up! And when Gotenks goes to the Rosat because Boo got stronger, both Piccolo and Trunks think he's got a shot without even transforming now. It's pretty simple.
Also, why are Base Gotenks and Base Vegetto weaker than their fusers? Daizenshuu 2 even makes it clear that Vegetto is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. Maybe it's a good

GT
I'll tell you, I keep going back and forth about GT. Sometimes I think it's Mr Boo, sometimes I think it's Gohan-Boo. Nowadays I've been thinking it's the Anime filler Pure Boo. I'll give you that it might be Mr Boo too. The way Goku omits the Majin and just says "Boo" always makes me think of Good Boo for some reason.
What? Gohan actually got stronger but he's weaker? That makes no sense man. Old Kaioshin just unlocked his potential, so Gohan is back at using SSJ to that into further potential he hasn't managed to use.

Also, I think there's more bloat than that. Trunks is far stronger than Goten, Baby admits as much when using Goten's body. Hell Trunks might be stronger than Base Rild since he could resist Kid Baby's absorption. Though this would mean Goku was holding back on Rild.

DBS
Why are Goku and Vegeta so weak in the beginning of the series? Goku's image training shows him killing Cell in one punch and ready to engage Pure Boo as a SSJ1. SSJ2 Vegeta could also hold his own against Beerus with his enraged power, when Gotenks and Gohan got one shot.

I don't understand your reason for Super Vegetto > SSJG. Because Gogeta, after the Saiyans powered up a lot is stronger than SSJG it means a weaker Vegetto must also be?

Is there any reason in particular for Hit to be a whooping 3x above Blue Vegeta, who in turn is 5x stronger than SSJ Goku? Goku did fight him evenly after figuring out Time Skip.

Goku Black clearly was no Super Saiyan 2. Look at his hair, Goku is the easiest saiyan to distinguish forms.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Dec 07, 2020 1:13 pm

Yuji wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:47 am
Koitsukai wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 11:32 pm
Interesting list, I agree with 19 and 20 being below Freeza, at least their initial "forms", before absorbing energy. It's still being discussed if Piccolo reached Freeza level, I think I agree with you, he trained for 3 years with Gohan and SS Goku. He had the right motivation and the right partners.

I like your Z numbers, while I feel the base saiyans are too low for my taste, your 100x MSS theory makes up for it and we end up having pretty much the same numbers.
Although I disagree with Yakon being stronger than Goku, he was dodging everything from him and even getting caught by surprise wasn't enough to do more than rip his gi. I know Gohan said that teamwork would do it, but I have not seen nothing from Yakon to be conviced he was stronger than base Goku.
I always felt Gohan stayed at the same level as he was back in the CG, I don't want to take Vegeta's comment like Gohan's gotten weaker, but that he has not gotten stronger.
All in all, I agree, although Mr Satan should seriously be stronger. He has won the Tenkaichi Budokai, so he should at least rival Pamput, Nam, and those guys. Besides, he did kill Cell.

GT
While I don't suscribe to having new multipliers for GT, I can see why this theory has come up. I think you are right on the money with Rildo and Boo, besides, he is talking to Trunks and Pan, he wouldn't mention someone they have never met like Buuhan.
The Vegito-SS4 debate is a handful. I always thought like you, but this forum has made understand that the comparison was with a hypotehtical GT Vegito, not Z Vegito, implying SS4 and SS fusion provide the same boost. But your numbers do work.
I disagree about Gohan becoming stronger, though, not only because how sad his SS form and his brother's looked against a hungry base Goku. There is an interview of one of the writers contradicting the Perfect Files, saying Gohan has moved on from the fighting life style and has become a regular person with a family and a steady job. Until the Super 17 arc when he was suppose to do an awesome comeback that was scrapped. Similar to Goten and Trunks, who were sent to space because they were slacking on their training, also having regular lives and all that.

GT is a mess, so I commend you for giving it a go, I think out of a 100 people, we won't find two GT power lists similar to each other, this show is that nuts.

DBS
I don't think there's a problem in having BoG God Goku > SS Vegito(or SS3), and also having FT fusion > SSG. The initial comparison was between Z fusion and a brand new god form. But in even grounds, that is with the fusion having access to the same forms, fusion should be stronger, not just because of the extra form, but because the fusees will be stronger, providing a stronger fusion. I mean, if Goku and Vegeta already had achieved SSG, BoG Vegito would've had a much stronger base form than the Vegito that Goku had thought about in the movie.
Besides, I don't think fusion is linear in that sense, the base form can be skipped like in Z or it can be OP like vs Zamasu.

Aside of that, I pretty much agree with everything, this is a good list, however I disagree with UI Goku and Gogeta Blue. Goku did much better against Moro than Gogeta vs a weaker dude like Broly, to the point he didn't even need to dodge him, Moro couldn't take more than 4 punches, while Gogeta used almost every move.
Thanks for the response!

I've never been a fan of how much Goku & Gohan increase their base strengths for the Cell Games, through a training regimen that was supposedly based on mastering the Super Saiyan form. My theory retroactively applies to explain the Cabbe situation too, but I've been using it for almost a decade now; it was quite common back in an older forum I frequented to think that Super Saiyan multipliers could be altered with training.

That's also the basis behind the idea of GT's reduced multipliers. The anime itself gives credence to the idea that Goku can somehow "access" part of SS's power in his base form: when he powers-up in the otherworld and before Vegeta transforms in the Broly movie. Toriyama himself said he drew the manga envisioning SS's multiplier as 10x, so it seems credible to me that GT writers wrote the series interpreting SS as a smaller boost. Even GT confirms it itself, when Rild implies Goku got a little over 2x stronger by transforming.To explain away many of GT's inconsistencies, such as base Trunks defeating Motchi who defeated SS Goku, Lood being stronger than Motchi but Goku never turned SS to fight him, SS/SS2 Goku fighting Rild on equal footing but then base Goku, Pan and Trunks one shot him, SS Goku performing well against Super 17, Oozaru Vegeta crushing SS4 Goku, etc; one must think that there's little difference between the Saiyan forms.

But like I said, I think it's perfectly possible to use the standard SS multipliers AND keep the following scale, SS Vegetto = SS4 Goku > SB 2 > SB 1 > Gohan Boo > Bebi Vegeta > SS3 Goku > Base Goku >= Mr. Boo. You could theoretically do something like this if you really want to:
Some fans like this sort of approach, and I don't see any inherent problem with it. You can still fit in all the characters in the same order you want within this scale. It's just far too bloated for my taste, considering how strong Super Yi Xing Long, SS4 Gogeta and the Super characters would become with this scale (I've done this sort of list before and it always ends up with far too many zeros), so I use a bit of headcanon to achieve the exact same result I want with lesser numbers.

As for Vegetto vs SS4, the image that the guide provides is that of Z Vegetto, but even if the guide is talking about the Potara boost vs the SS4 boost (which is a valid interpretation), the power of fusion is so ridiculously high that I don't have a problem believing that Super Vegetto may be equal to SS4.

As for DBS fusion, I see where you're coming from but I like to think of fusion as linear, rather than an absurd and convenient power boost that defies consistency. Also personally, since fusion is so overpowered, it breaks most people's scales. Mine ended up so high because of Gogeta Blue. So if I can find some sort of science to it, I'm glad.

As for UI vs Gogeta Blue, personally I can go either way. I just have Gogeta slightly higher because that's the numbers the multipliers gave. If there's definitive proof that MUI Goku is stronger than Gogeta, I'd have no problem altering the numbers.
Oh, you are right, GT can work either way, be it SS4 = GT Vegito/Z Vegito. You either place Super Vegito next to SS4 Goku, or next to Bebi's final form. If he is not in that tier, he is in the previous one.

About your Z numbers, I noticed they resemble the DBZ Kakarot power levels, although the game never went beyond 15M.

One more thing I forgot in my previous post: I would put Black Rosé somewhere in between SSG and SSB, considering the sheer speed of God was too much for Black but it lacked the punch to do any harm, unlike SSB, which was too much of a drag to use but with the switch it encountered the perfect balance. He is not weaker than God because then only that form would've been used, but he is not entirely blue level because then God's speed would've been a joke to him.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Mon Dec 07, 2020 1:27 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:15 pm
Shouldn't Tao be a bit higher than that? He had a quite even fight with Goku most of the time, even if Goku wasn't trying that much. 63 vs 40 just seems a bit too much. And if you'll rise Tao I think you might as well pull #8 up with him, since his feat punching White into the horizon places him close to Tao.
Fair point. I don't have a problem raising Tao up a bit, but Goku never goes all out in a fight (he confirms this himself in the 22nd Tenka'ichi Budokai). #8 is definitely weaker than Tao though, Goku states he's the strongest person he's found yet.
Piccolo said Gohan can be stronger than him if he just focuses, and Gohan proves it by clobbering Nappa pretty badly with a kick. He's definitely lower than 3,500.
And nothing wrong with Raditz being a 1,350 per see, but this is going to bite you in the ass pretty soon.

And by soon I meant right now. If Raditz should be lowered to rival the Saibamen, why not raise Freeza? He's a proper rival to Goku, stalemating him on a beam struggle and exchanging blows with him even as his Ki starts to decrease. I suggest you raise him to 135 and bump Mecha Freeza to a 150, since he did think he could take on Goku here.
Gohan's power fluctuates based on anger, so the 981 is merely his placeholder "base" state. Piccolo has to be relatively close to Nappa in order to burn his back with a Ki blast and even if he died to Nappa's blast, he wasn't torn apart.

Freeza in the manga wasn't very much of a match for Goku. Outside of the beam struggle stalemate (which Freeza wins merely by outsmarting Goku, and he didn't even cause any damage), Goku dominated the entire fight. As for Mecha Freeza, since his full power was never seen, we don't really know if we can give any credence to his assertion that he could defeat Goku. Future Goku took both of them down and knowing Goku, he probably let him power-up to max. Of course, Goku at this point was stronger than Trunks, but Gohan says Trunks' has a similar Ki to his dad on Namek (could just be referring to his Super Saiyan Ki, however) and Goku says that he only blocked Trunks' hits because Trunks held back.
Vegeta said he was stronger than Trunks, and Trunks later exchanges blows evenly with Cell before fully powering up into Grade 3 (Though it's unclear how serious Cell was going on him). Trunks is either a tiny bit weaker or considerably stronger than Vegeta, they're not equals.
Vegeta and Trunks weren't using Grade 2 in the Cell Games. They look fairly slim and obviously would follow Goku's style to get stronger. Also, how strong is Perfect Cell at full power? 3 billion?
Yes, Trunks is slightly weaker than Vegeta. I have them both even for convenience purposes, the difference between the two is likely negligible.

I think it's debatable which form they're using because they only appeared in a few panels, but to me Trunks' and Vegeta's spikier hairstyles give it away that it's Grade 2. Muscle mass isn't a good indicator considering they're not in the spotlight anymore and Toriyama is prone to overlooking details.

Yes, somewhere between 2.5 and 3 billion. I don't know if some consider SPC's power-up to be akin to SS2 but that would make SPC stronger than Gohan, assuming he didn't get an extra power boost during the Kamehameha.
Babidi says his power up ritual is actually a potential unlock, and given how strong Kuririn got with one I think Spopovich ought to be far higher than that. He can easily shoot Ki blasts and fly at high speeds for prolongued times, when in comparison the Z Fighters could only do that a couple times without running out of gas in Part I.
The problem with the humans in the Boo arc is that they're all comparable to each other. We know from the punching machine that Videl and Mr. Satan are comparable and we know that Spopovich is weak enough that he can get his neck snapped by Videl's kick. Then we know that Mr. Satan is weak enough to get severely wounded by a bullet, whereas Goku at the start of the series can tank one and Roshi in the Red Ribbon Army could catch a whole machine gun fire. You can chalk up the first instance to Goku's Saiyan physiology, but I don't see why tanking bullets should be exclusive to Goku's body when we've seen humans do the same shortly after. At the very least, Spopovich, Videl and Mr. Satan are all weaker than 21st TB Jackie Chun, who doesn't even compare to any of the fighters from the 22nd tournament, when flying was introduced.
I think Gohan and Piccolo should be stronger and weaker than you gave them credit for, respectively. Gohan got the best of Dabra in close quarters (Kicking him away at the start of the fight and not only catching but breaking his sword by the end) and shrugged off his blast with minimal damage. Dabra was mostly getting by thanks to Gohan's rusty fighting style and his own magic tricks.
As for Piccolo, he just doesn't really have the means or motivation to get twice as strong in these seven years, and keeping him closer to his Cell Games power works better to highlight his inferiority compared to Kaioshin and the kids. Talking about the kids, I think you should apply the 50x multiplier to them; there's no way they could have mastered Super Saiyan with the little experience they have.
Dabra wanted to gather energy for Boo's revival so he definitely wasn't going full power against Gohan. We know Dabra is stronger than Cell and that Gohan got weaker from the Cell Games, so even without any numbers, we know Dabra could have finished Gohan off at any point he wanted.

We know Piccolo is stronger than the kids because of Boo's appearance, and the kids on multiple occasions are compared to the adults. Trunks landed a blow on Vegeta and kept him on his toes and Goten was said by Gohan himself that he was close enough to his level to the point he could be surpassed if he slacked off even more, not to mention he served as Gohan's sparring partner for the tournament. They wouldn't be this praised if they were less than half as strong as the adults. And although I don't really like to bring up the sequels when talking about the original manga, we know from Super that Goten and Trunks can handle seven Cell Jrs at once, so they're relative to the Cell Games Saiyans. The kids for this reason must have mastered the SS transformation (and they even share the unique MSS aura, though by this point in the series I wonder if Toriyama even remembered that he gave unmastered and mastered SS different auras, or whether it was even intentional).
The Gotenks nerfing his really unecessary. I don't think there's any wiggle room for his power. Goku guarantees everyone Gotenks can win, and even though he admits having doubts he says their power is what makes him sure. Piccolo gives the ok to SSJ Gotenks' power (Who suspiciously defuses when trying to fight Majin Boo) and lets them rest, even saying they're going to fight as soon as they wake up! And when Gotenks goes to the Rosat because Boo got stronger, both Piccolo and Trunks think he's got a shot without even transforming now. It's pretty simple.
Also, why are Base Gotenks and Base Vegetto weaker than their fusers? Daizenshuu 2 even makes it clear that Vegetto is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. Maybe it's a good
I think there's good wiggle room for Gotenks' power for one reason alone: Goku was lying. Goku could have beaten Boo at any point and he lied and said he didn't. So he could have been overestimating Gotenks' power, being too hopeful, underestimating Boo or flat-out lying. When we know that in this instance he wasn't being entirely truthful, we cant take his word for granted, especially when we don't really have any feats for Gotenks regardless.

But to be honest with you, with the exception of this list where I wanted to be as conservative as possible, I usually agree that SS Gotenks is stronger than Fat Boo pre-RoSaT and around SS3 Goku post-RoSaT.

As for base fusions, that's mostly personal choice. I am honest that I cherrypick guidebook information, so don't expect consistency from me on that point, at least not when it comes to battle power lists (in an actual strength debate, I take them more seriously). With that being said, the Daizenshuu based base Gotenks' power on the anime filler where he fought Boo. We also know from the JSAT special that Gotenks fought a Freeza-tier opponent. Whether Abo and Cado were stronger than first form, or true form Freeza, or individually or fused, that's all vague and up to interpretation, but the fact that Gotenks turned SS at all against an opponent that had been compared to Freeza is very telling. Base Goku, of course, in BoG was also compared to Freeza as we know and Gotenks and Goku didn't have dissimilar performances against Beerus. Modern Dragon Ball, at least, seems not to think very highly of base Gotenks.

As for Vegetto, there's not much to work with in the manga proper. He went Super Saiyan and that's it. But as I said in the post above yours, a scale which puts base Vegetto closer to Gohan Boo much like the anime is a perfectly legitimate approach.
What? Gohan actually got stronger but he's weaker? That makes no sense man. Old Kaioshin just unlocked his potential, so Gohan is back at using SSJ to that into further potential he hasn't managed to use.

Also, I think there's more bloat than that. Trunks is far stronger than Goten, Baby admits as much when using Goten's body. Hell Trunks might be stronger than Base Rild since he could resist Kid Baby's absorption. Though this would mean Goku was holding back on Rild.
Gohan got stronger in his base form but can't access his ultimate state for whatever reason. Super did the same thing. For whatever reason, both GT and Super forgot ultimate Gohan existed. We know that "transforming" is simply thematically against elder Kaioshin's entire purpose for the ritual, so I was never a fan of the headcanon that Gohan can stack SS with ultimate, or that he uses SS to access his ultimate state.

Trunks may be stronger than I gave him credit for considering he one shots Motchi, who defeated SS Goku, and resists Bebi like you said, but at the same time Trunks says he hasn't been training and admits that Vegeta, who had trouble with Goten and Gohan, and especially Piccolo, who shouldn't have got much stronger from Z, were both stronger than him.
Why are Goku and Vegeta so weak in the beginning of the series? Goku's image training shows him killing Cell in one punch and ready to engage Pure Boo as a SSJ1. SSJ2 Vegeta could also hold his own against Beerus with his enraged power, when Gotenks and Gohan got one shot.
I don't think Goku's image training is meant to be taken as an indicator for much, but if you want an explanation, you can just assume he was imagining base Perfect Cell, and not Super Perfect Cell. As for Boo, that's typical Goku just testing himself. In regards to Vegeta, again another thing that doesn't really matter much. All we know is that he's stronger than SS3 Goku. He may held out better against Beerus than Gotenks and Gohan, but unless you want to claim that SS2 enraged Vegeta is relative to Beerus, then it's irrelevant at the end of the day, since they're all ants to Beerus. Beerus himself implies he only let Vegeta get a couple of hits in because he wanted to see if he was going to transform.
I don't understand your reason for Super Vegetto > SSJG. Because Gogeta, after the Saiyans powered up a lot is stronger than SSJG it means a weaker Vegetto must also be?

Is there any reason in particular for Hit to be a whooping 3x above Blue Vegeta, who in turn is 5x stronger than SSJ Goku? Goku did fight him evenly after figuring out Time Skip.

Goku Black clearly was no Super Saiyan 2. Look at his hair, Goku is the easiest saiyan to distinguish forms.
Again, this is just personal choice. I dislike that fusions are seemingly arbitrary in how they scale with each other so I wanted to find some logic and consistency. In an actual debate, I likely wouldn't argue that Z Vegetto and DBS Gogeta/Vegetto scale linearly with each other, but this is a battle power list based on (faulty) mathematics, not a debate or a strength tier list.

Hit is weird because Beerus states he's weaker physically than Goku yet we know that he is powerful enough to defeat 10% SSB Vegeta who should logically be much stronger than SS Goku and impervious to any attacks from a much weaker opponent, even one with time powers. Later Hit powers-up and is able to freeze SSG Goku and at full power even dodge SSB Goku's Kamehameha. In the ToP, we even see him arguably outdoing SSB Goku against Jiren. I concede I have no idea how to gauge his power so I just assume he's somewhere between 10% SSB Vegeta and SSG Goku and ignore the SS Goku vs Hit portion.

Goku Black has Goku's SS1 hair but has SS2 sparks. Much like Super Vegetto, you could argue he's just using SS1 and sparks are there to portray how ridiculously powerful he is. I would agree, but again, I took this interpretative liberty and made this headcanon so that numbers wouldn't bloat much more than they already do with that arc. A lot of headcanon! But what are battle powers if not headcanon? Super and GT are so inconsistent with the original series that I honestly can't take the scaling much to heart and just kinda bend it as long as it allows for it.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Kaboom » Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:26 am

Powar Levuls with Kaboom:
The "Super-Strong Base Fusions" Experimental List

Can't remember the last time I actually shared some power levels in a forum post, especially since I've just kept my main lists in my signature for so long now... but whatever. This is a little experiment I felt like putting out there. I've been thinking a lot lately about how Fusion works from an in-universe angle, along with ideas I've seen from others in the past, and decided to try combining those ideas and my own into some actual numbahs and see how well things fit together.

The three primary concepts at work are as follows:
  1. The process of Fusion takes into account ALL of the two fusees' power, including the maximum they can draw out from their transformations, resulting in a super-strong base form. Since Fusion is presumably more than just the sum of its parts, I'll assume different methods then boost this combined power by different degrees.
  2. Because most of the two individuals' underlying power has already been brought out by the Fusion process this way, the resulting Fusion itself doesn't get anywhere near as relatively large a power increase out of transforming. In a nutshell, higher drawn-out potential = lower transformation multipliers.
  3. The effectiveness and resulting strength of the Fusion Dance can vary a lot, and depends not just on the individuals' strength but how "in sync" they are and how precisely they perform the actual dance. The Potara is more effective by default and will usually be stronger than a "good enough" dance fusion, but a potential "perfect" dance Fusion can equal or even surpass a Potara-born one.
Alright, that's the main points: Fusions combine all underlying power, Fusions then get relatively tiny boosts from Super Saiyan as a result, and the Fusion Dance's power changes with the users' synchrony and performance just as much as with their own power. All clear enough?

Now let's talk math. Normally I don't bother coming up with "formulas" for Fusion because I believe it's mostly plot-based and there's a loooooot of potential other little factors that can go into it, and if two people are a really bad match then they might even become weaker by fusing. For the most part, that's still how I swing, and I plan to stick with that even if I adopt the "super-strong base Fusions" concept into my main lists. But for the sake of this experimental list, I worked some stuff out just as a proof of concept. So for now let's assume all these characters are emotionless robots with no individuality, and that this all applies to good and successful Fusions between ideal pairs and excludes weird potential mismatches like Gotan, Denderot, or Piririn.
  • FUSION DANCE: (Max A+B) x2 [Initial] / (Max A+B) x4 [Perfected]
  • POTARA FUSION: (Max A+B) x3
  • FUSION TRANSFORMATIONS: SS1: x3 / SS2: x1.5 / SS3: x2
Both Fusion methods take ALL the two individuals' power and combine it. Potara then increases it by a flat 3x, while a "good enough" Dance increases it by 2x and a "perfect" Dance increases it by 4x. Then we have the teeny-weeny Super Saiyan multipliers to keep these already ridiculously-powerful Fusions from getting too greedy.

Time at last for some actual POWAR LEVELS. I'm sticking to mainly just the Majin Boo arc, since that's when Fusion mattered most and I just say "no" to drugs so I'll never try to make serious power level numbers for GT or Super. I started with the numbers I already have for the non-Fusion characters in my list, and I knew I wanted to keep Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan's maximums in the same general range I already have them. So I used those starting and ending points to figure out the above formulas for the different Fusion methods, and it was surprisingly easy to come up with something simple that worked. I typed up some more in-depth notes, but they're kind of optional and the numbers themselves should all more or less show what I'm going for on their own.

First off, here's all the simple non-Fusion folks, the same as they are in my normal list:
  • GOKU: 90 / SS1: 4,500 / SS2: 9,000 / SS3: 36,000
  • VEGETA: 90 / SS1: 4,500 / SS2: 9,000
  • GOHAN: 68 / SS1: 3,400 / SS2: 6,000 / Ultimate: 150,000
  • TRUNKS: 32 / SS1: 1,600
  • GOTEN: 28 / SS1: 1,400
  • KAIOSHIN: 2,800
  • KIBITO: 50
(All these numbers are in units of millions, BTW.)

Now let's throw them into a super collider:
  • GOTENKS: 6,000 / SS1: 18,000 [Post-RoSaT: 12,000 / SS1: 36,000 / SS2: 55,000 / SS3: 110,000]
  • KIBITOSHIN: 8,500
  • VEGETTO: 130,000 / SS1: 400,000

Now for the different forms of Boo, for reference:
  • MAJIN BOO: 5,000 - 10,000 - 15,000
  • EVIL BOO: 50,000 - 100,000 / +Gotenks: 200,000 / +Gohan: 240,000
  • PURE BOO: 30,000

And finally... A BONUS ROUND!
  • GOGETA: 90,000 - 180,000 / SS1: 270,000 - 540,000 / SS2: 405,000 - 810,000
  • JANEMBA: 20,000 (Fat) / 200,000 (Super)
  • KUHAN: 560,000 / SS1: 1,680,000?! [Alternative: 560,000 / SS1 (x1.3): 728,000 / SS2 (x1.1): 800,000 / SS3 (x1.2): 960,000]
  • GTR GOKU (Shadow Dragons): 180 / SS3: 72,000 / SS4 (x4,000): 720,000
  • GTR VEGETA (Shadow Dragons): 140 / SS3: 56,000 / SS4 (x4,000): 560,000
  • GTR GOGETA: 256,000 / SS3: 2,300,000 / SS4: 23,000,000

So... that's about it. What do y'all think? if I made any major math goof-ups anywhere, let me know, but I'm more interested in thoughts on the general concept. Like I said at the start, this was really just something experimental done on a whim, but it's the type of "creative solution" I'm fond of and I'm really liking how it turned out. It certainly seems to leave more problems solved than unsolved. If I continue liking it, I may end up adopting it for my actual main lists, at least until something official, substantial, and worth caring about ends up blatantly contradicting it.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:37 pm

Kaboom wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:26 am
Powar Levuls with Kaboom: The "Super-Strong Base Fusions" Experimental List

<Snip>
I think you might be onto something with the massive base forms and the "tiny" boosts from SS. It helps understand that whole Gotenks bit that never made sense if you stuck to the non-fused multipliers.

It would definitely explain why, vs Zamasu, base Vegito was so OP even before the senzu, and why SSB on top of that could hit him several times without breaking him in half immediately, or the need to dodge his katchin blocks. Typical SSB multipliers -and I say typical even though we have none for the god forms- would place him so far away from Zamasu that he should've made that Goku-flexing-his-chest bit vs Moro look like a silly feat.

You also have on your favour Gogeta vs Broly, Gogeta's base and SS performance weren't thaaat different, considering Broly didn't power up until they were in that other dimension, and the fact that SS Gogeta could take blows from FPSS Broly without dying (and ending up in the defunct ogrish.com site) and after going Blue he did not one-shot him. Meaning/implying he didn't become as stronger as Goku would when going from SS to Blue.

And the cherry on top: SSG and Vegito from BoG.
With your theory, SSG doesn't need to have such a big multiplier to surpass SS3 Vegito, or SS Vegito. And later on, Vegito/Gogeta surpassing his fusee's God form in his base would have more to do with the fusion multipliers than a retcon of SSG. Although for it, I think I would have to disagree with you about god ki not being included by the fusion, or... god ki just grants some sort of symbolical boost on top of that (Max A+B) x3. Maybe it doubles it, I dunno.

Now, aside of the math and headcanon of ours, I do think what you propose is what the writers somehow have in mind when coming up with these characters. Something like "and now G and V fuse and end up with a huge base form, but that's not all, they can go SS/SS2/blue and become even stronger" I doubt they think "and now they become blue on top of blue", mainly because that would make the fight obsolete.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Kaboom » Wed Dec 09, 2020 3:33 pm

Thanks for the insightful and helpful reply (compared to the reactions I received in another community that's somewhat more... myopic). I was hoping that someone more familiar with the Fusion-involved fights from Super would comment on them, since I had a feeling this theory also lends itself well to them as a whole. But I don't care to remember much about any of them besides Gogeta vs Broli, and I'm certainly not crazy or masochistic enough to ever rewatch/reread Super just for the futile goal of trying to make power levels for them. Generally though, all the scenarios you described seem to make sense to me. Anyhoo...
Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 2:37 pm
Although for it, I think I would have to disagree with you about god ki not being included by the fusion, or... god ki just grants some sort of symbolical boost on top of that (Max A+B) x3. Maybe it doubles it, I dunno.
Well, I should reiterate that this notion only applies to my personal redefinition of god-ki for an eventual maybe-someday Super rewrite fanfic. In that still-forming version of things, god-ki would be an outside power source rather than something generated by the user's own body. So it'd make sense that it wouldn't be an ingredient for Fusion, and it'd simply be up to the new fused fighter to start channeling it themselves after the fact.

In the OG version(s) of Super, where god-ki is evidently just a more "refined" variation of normal ki... then yeah, if I applied this Fusion-power theory I suppose Super Saiyan God and Blue would simply have greatly-reduced relative power boosts than normal for Fusions, just like the other lower non-godly transformations do.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Wed Dec 09, 2020 6:46 pm

A couple of questions: what's a "perfected" fusion dance and what sets it apart from the imperfect version? Are you referring to the failed fusions of skinny/fat Gotenks/Gogeta, or are you referring to a specific difference in a successful fusion? If it's the former, I don't see any reason to think Veku, for example, would be that powerful; if it's the latter, then explain what I'm not grasping.

Secondly, what do you make of Gohan Boo's statement that if Goku and Gohan, and later Goku and Vegeta, fused (with the dance), they'd be no match for him? Boastful or not, Boo ought to know how much the fusion dance would increase his battle power, and the only on-screen appearance from Gogeta was rather underwhelming (he needed Super Saiyan to defeat a Janemba that had some trouble with SS3 Goku). Because of this, and elder Kaioshin's statement that the Potara is superior, before Super and GT I always assumed the fusion dance was inferior to the Potara in power output.

I agree with Koitsukai that far more than Gotenks and Z, the theory helps put into perspective Super's (and GT's) fusions. Many years ago I also toyed with the idea of a super-powerful base fusion with reduced SS multipliers but I never formulated an equation of my own. Glad to see someone else had the same thought and put it into practice with an actual scale.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:36 am

The way Kaboom describes, it seems his approach is that Fusion Dance formula depends on how balanced/compatible the performers are among themselves. Goten and Trunks had a little more time to work on their sync, so while not achieving noticeable gains individually, their fusion became far more powerful.

Gohan-Boo, despite having Piccolo’s knowledge, doesn’t have the whole picture of how fusion works. On several occasions, you can see Piccolo surprised from how amazing the result is. So, it was always unknown how powerful exactly they would be, no matter the method used.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Vertical » Fri Dec 11, 2020 3:55 am

Kaboom wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:26 am
The "Super-Strong Base Fusions" Experimental List
Ignoring your self-admitted Gotenks bias... though it is a major point that really should be addressed when talking about fusion... or giving yourself a pat on the back....

Fusion character transformations should function exactly as non-fusion character transformations do. Nothing is ever noted otherwise, despite multiple examples of post-fusion transformations. If you believe Super Saiyan is a fixed 50x multiplier, it should remain as such for fused Saiyans.

The closest thing to a counter argument for this point actually implies the ratio increasing, not decreasing, due to Vegetto’s surprise at his own power post-transformation… though most correlate this to the Potara Fusion’s overall results, not Super Saiyan specifically.

A bias against large numbers, or “bloat” as you describe it, should really be put aside in regard to a series that took the main character from 90,000 to 150,000,000 (according to official numbers) in less than a day.

Side note: Intentionally misspelling/capitalizing things like “powar levuls” and “numbahs” is disrespectful to the people you’re asking opinions of. If you’re mocking the subject matter, or think yourself above it, why should anyone engage with you seriously?

--
Yuji wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 6:46 pm
A couple of questions: what's a "perfected" fusion dance and what sets it apart from the imperfect version? Are you referring to the failed fusions of skinny/fat Gotenks/Gogeta, or are you referring to a specific difference in a successful fusion? If it's the former, I don't see any reason to think Veku, for example, would be that powerful; if it's the latter, then explain what I'm not grasping.
I introduced the idea of varying degrees of successful fusion to the community a few years back… so I can probably answer on Kaboom’s behalf for this.

A certain level of synchronicity is required for fusion to succeed… and the idea here is that the more in-sync you are beyond that minimum requirement, the better the result.

This is a simple explanation for Gotenks’ gains during the RoSaT training while Goten/Trunks are implied to have not improved much themselves. It can also explain why the implied gap between [Pre-RoSaT] Base Gotenks and [Pre-RoSaT] SSJ Gotenks is much smaller than most SSJ multipliers.

Related Notes:

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Kaboom » Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:12 am

Whoops, these additional replies somehow escaped my notice for a few days. Here we go...
Yuji wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 6:46 pm
A couple of questions: what's a "perfected" fusion dance and what sets it apart from the imperfect version? Are you referring to the failed fusions of skinny/fat Gotenks/Gogeta, or are you referring to a specific difference in a successful fusion?
Hugo Boss more or less has it right. The idea I'm proposing is that you can get even better at the Fusion Dance beyond just the bare minimum level for it to be successful. The two individuals getting even more naturally in-sync with each other and becoming even more precise with the dance itself will actually make the Fusion stronger.

It's something separate from just screwing up and failing the Dance outright, which resulted in the fat/skinny and weak versions of Gotenks and Gogeta. Also, for the sake of a nice orderly list I just made two distinct levels and formulas for "good enough" and "perfect" Fusion Dances, but in reality the results could vary a lot more than that.

Yuji wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 6:46 pm
Secondly, what do you make of Gohan Boo's statement that if Goku and Gohan, and later Goku and Vegeta, fused (with the dance), they'd be no match for him?
Hugo Boss beat me to it again. The only frame of reference for Boo, Piccolo, or anyone else up to this point is Gotenks, and Gotenks alone. So if Fusion works anything like the way I proposed in my first post, and takes ALL of the two individuals' underlying power into effect, it makes sense that a Fusion of Goku with either Gohan or Vegeta would be proportionately waaaay stronger than Gotenks was compared to Goten and Trunks.

The real reason of course is that Fusion is mostly plot-based, but where made-up numbers are concerned I think an approach like this helps explains just why a Goku/Vegeta Fusion ended up so much more ridiculously powerful than anyone expected.

Yuji wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 6:46 pm
Because of this, and elder Kaioshin's statement that the Potara is superior, before Super and GT I always assumed the fusion dance was inferior to the Potara in power output.
Me too, but like I mentioned in my notes (which were admittedly kinda long-winded so I'm not surprised if it was overlooked), there are some more recent official sources claiming that Gogeta is equal to Vegetto, or possibly even stronger. The "getting even better at the Fusion Dance makes the Fusion stronger" theory I'm working with here helps explain how that could feasibly happen, while also helping explain why Gotenks got so much stronger in the Time Room despite his short bursts of existence and no apparent improvement in Goten and Trunks individually.

Vertical wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 3:55 am
Side note: Intentionally misspelling/capitalizing things like “powar levuls” and “numbahs” is disrespectful to the people you’re asking opinions of. If you’re mocking the subject matter, or think yourself above it, why should anyone engage with you seriously?
You kind of inadvertently answered your own question with that last bit... I do stuff like that not to mock or degrade anyone, but as a reminder that this stuff shouldn't be taken too seriously. It's also the express reason why I put this thread in the "Fan-Created Works" sub-forum instead of "In-Universe Discussion." Because the art of creating fan-made power levels is... exactly that. An art. It's a subjective and creativity-based form of fanwork, not a science. This stuff should be fun.

I know from years upon years of painful first-hand experience that when fans take their number-crunching too seriously and fuss too much over who or what is "most correct," then egos inevitably fly out of control, topics become little more than dingus-swinging contests, and entire communities become downright toxic. Nobody with any influence at Kanzenshuu, myself included, wants to see that happen here. So on top of placing this thread soundly where it belongs, I also try to help remind everyone involved that none of this is srs bsns.

I mean, have you seen my Movies & Specials list? There's almost more joke entries than actual "serious" power levels in there.
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ZombieVito
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:44 am

As much as I would like for the fusions to have a smaller multiplier for transformations, not a single instance exists where that is implied. You would think Piccolo would have noticed way back at the Boo arc that Super Saiyan Gotenks didn't receive the full power of the transformation but he didn't.

Also, the Broly movie kinda confirms the transformation has the full effect since Ikari Broly was on par with SSB Goku and both SS Broly and SS Gogeta are on par as well so the transformation is using the same boost since Base Gogeta is shown to be on SSB Goku's level if not higher.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Kaboom » Thu Dec 17, 2020 1:39 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:44 am
As much as I would like for the fusions to have a smaller multiplier for transformations, not a single instance exists where that is implied.
Well there's no instance where it's definitively disproven either (no "wow, [Gotenks/Vegetto] is dozens of times stronger than before now that he's gone Super Saiyan" statement), so it's fair game for ultimately inconsequential things like fan-made power level lists, right? All things considered, I'm feeling more and more like this kind of take wraps everything together most comfortably, at least from a "feeling" perspective in lieu of anything more concrete.
ZombieVito wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 3:44 am
Also, the Broly movie kinda confirms the transformation has the full effect since Ikari Broly was on par with SSB Goku and both SS Broly and SS Gogeta are on par as well so the transformation is using the same boost since Base Gogeta is shown to be on SSB Goku's level if not higher.
I guess you and Koitsukai might want to compare notes on the Broli movie's fights, because he seems to think the way the fights escalated actually favors this combination of ideas.

Either way, I'm not too inclined to take the heroes' performance against nuBroli as reliable grounds for much, since A) my lists are almost entirely focused on the original story's run and I don't really count Super for anything in the first place, and B) nuBroli seemed to just keep growing stronger over the course of his fights, and eventually Gogeta going Super Saiyan Blue was the only power gap too big for him to overcome. So it's hard to try measuring transformation power boosts based on a fight with an enemy who doesn't have a static power level to measure against, you know?
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:25 pm

I believe it’s also debatable wether (DB Super) Broli’s Super Saiyan works the same as the regular Super Saiyan or not, given its special treatment. He clearly has no problem with dealing with 2 Super Saiyan Blue, but it’s odd that Golden Freeza (more or less on that level) can withstand that much pain from someone with 50-fold his strength for a hour. (!) :lol:

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Dec 17, 2020 4:57 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:25 pm
I believe it’s also debatable wether (DB Super) Broli’s Super Saiyan works the same as the regular Super Saiyan or not, given its special treatment. He clearly has no problem with dealing with 2 Super Saiyan Blue, but it’s odd that Golden Freeza (more or less on that level) can withstand that much pain from someone with 50-fold his strength for a hour. (!) :lol:
Freeza is very durable. The guy survived an exploding planet with barely any Ki, twice.

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