GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: ↑
Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:15 pm
Shouldn't Tao be a bit higher than that? He had a quite even fight with Goku most of the time, even if Goku wasn't trying that much. 63 vs 40 just seems a bit too much. And if you'll rise Tao I think you might as well pull #8 up with him, since his feat punching White into the horizon places him close to Tao.
Fair point. I don't have a problem raising Tao up a bit, but Goku never goes all out in a fight (he confirms this himself in the 22nd Tenka'ichi Budokai). #8 is definitely weaker than Tao though, Goku states he's the strongest person he's found yet.
Piccolo said Gohan can be stronger than him if he just focuses, and Gohan proves it by clobbering Nappa pretty badly with a kick. He's definitely lower than 3,500.
And nothing wrong with Raditz being a 1,350 per see, but this is going to bite you in the ass pretty soon.
And by soon I meant right now. If Raditz should be lowered to rival the Saibamen, why not raise Freeza? He's a proper rival to Goku, stalemating him on a beam struggle and exchanging blows with him even as his Ki starts to decrease. I suggest you raise him to 135 and bump Mecha Freeza to a 150, since he did think he could take on Goku here.
Gohan's power fluctuates based on anger, so the 981 is merely his placeholder "base" state. Piccolo has to be relatively close to Nappa in order to burn his back with a Ki blast and even if he died to Nappa's blast, he wasn't torn apart.
Freeza in the manga wasn't very much of a match for Goku. Outside of the beam struggle stalemate (which Freeza wins merely by outsmarting Goku, and he didn't even cause any damage), Goku dominated the entire fight. As for Mecha Freeza, since his full power was never seen, we don't really know if we can give any credence to his assertion that he could defeat Goku. Future Goku took both of them down and knowing Goku, he probably let him power-up to max. Of course, Goku at this point was stronger than Trunks, but Gohan says Trunks' has a similar Ki to his dad on Namek (could just be referring to his Super Saiyan Ki, however) and Goku says that he only blocked Trunks' hits because Trunks held back.
Vegeta said he was stronger than Trunks, and Trunks later exchanges blows evenly with Cell before fully powering up into Grade 3 (Though it's unclear how serious Cell was going on him). Trunks is either a tiny bit weaker or considerably stronger than Vegeta, they're not equals.
Vegeta and Trunks weren't using Grade 2 in the Cell Games. They look fairly slim and obviously would follow Goku's style to get stronger. Also, how strong is Perfect Cell at full power? 3 billion?
Yes, Trunks is slightly weaker than Vegeta. I have them both even for convenience purposes, the difference between the two is likely negligible.
I think it's debatable which form they're using because they only appeared in a few panels, but to me Trunks' and Vegeta's spikier hairstyles
give it away that it's Grade 2
. Muscle mass isn't a good indicator considering they're not in the spotlight anymore and Toriyama is prone to overlooking details.
Yes, somewhere between 2.5 and 3 billion. I don't know if some consider SPC's power-up to be akin to SS2 but that would make SPC stronger than Gohan, assuming he didn't get an extra power boost during the Kamehameha.
Babidi says his power up ritual is actually a potential unlock, and given how strong Kuririn got with one I think Spopovich ought to be far higher than that. He can easily shoot Ki blasts and fly at high speeds for prolongued times, when in comparison the Z Fighters could only do that a couple times without running out of gas in Part I.
The problem with the humans in the Boo arc is that they're all comparable to each other. We know from the punching machine that Videl and Mr. Satan are comparable and we know that Spopovich is weak enough that he can get his neck snapped by Videl's kick. Then we know that Mr. Satan is weak enough to get severely wounded by a bullet, whereas Goku at the start of the series can tank one and Roshi in the Red Ribbon Army could catch a whole machine gun fire. You can chalk up the first instance to Goku's Saiyan physiology, but I don't see why tanking bullets should be exclusive to Goku's body when we've seen humans do the same shortly after. At the very least, Spopovich, Videl and Mr. Satan are all weaker than 21st TB Jackie Chun, who doesn't even compare to any
of the fighters from the 22nd tournament, when flying was introduced.
I think Gohan and Piccolo should be stronger and weaker than you gave them credit for, respectively. Gohan got the best of Dabra in close quarters (Kicking him away at the start of the fight and not only catching but breaking his sword by the end) and shrugged off his blast with minimal damage. Dabra was mostly getting by thanks to Gohan's rusty fighting style and his own magic tricks.
As for Piccolo, he just doesn't really have the means or motivation to get twice as strong in these seven years, and keeping him closer to his Cell Games power works better to highlight his inferiority compared to Kaioshin and the kids. Talking about the kids, I think you should apply the 50x multiplier to them; there's no way they could have mastered Super Saiyan with the little experience they have.
Dabra wanted to gather energy for Boo's revival so he definitely wasn't going full power against Gohan. We know Dabra is stronger than Cell and that Gohan got weaker from the Cell Games, so even without any numbers, we know Dabra could have finished Gohan off at any point he wanted.
We know Piccolo is stronger than the kids because of Boo's appearance, and the kids on multiple occasions are compared to the adults. Trunks landed a blow on Vegeta and kept him on his toes and Goten was said by Gohan himself that he was close enough to his level to the point he could be surpassed if he slacked off even more, not to mention he served as Gohan's sparring partner for the tournament. They wouldn't be this praised if they were less than half as strong as the adults. And although I don't really like to bring up the sequels when talking about the original manga, we know from Super that Goten and Trunks can handle seven Cell Jrs at once, so they're relative to the Cell Games Saiyans. The kids for this reason must have mastered the SS transformation (and they even share the unique MSS aura, though by this point in the series I wonder if Toriyama even remembered that he gave unmastered and mastered SS different auras, or whether it was even intentional).
The Gotenks nerfing his really unecessary. I don't think there's any wiggle room for his power. Goku guarantees everyone Gotenks can win, and even though he admits having doubts he says their power is what makes him sure. Piccolo gives the ok to SSJ Gotenks' power (Who suspiciously defuses when trying to fight Majin Boo) and lets them rest, even saying they're going to fight as soon as they wake up! And when Gotenks goes to the Rosat because Boo got stronger, both Piccolo and Trunks think he's got a shot without even transforming now. It's pretty simple.
Also, why are Base Gotenks and Base Vegetto weaker than their fusers? Daizenshuu 2 even makes it clear that Vegetto is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. Maybe it's a good
I think there's good wiggle room for Gotenks' power for one reason alone: Goku was lying. Goku could have beaten Boo at any point and he lied and said he didn't. So he could have been overestimating Gotenks' power, being too hopeful, underestimating Boo or flat-out lying. When we know that in this instance he wasn't being entirely truthful, we cant take his word for granted, especially when we don't really have any feats for Gotenks regardless.
But to be honest with you, with the exception of this list where I wanted to be as conservative as possible, I usually agree that SS Gotenks is stronger than Fat Boo pre-RoSaT and around SS3 Goku post-RoSaT.
As for base fusions, that's mostly personal choice. I am honest that I cherrypick guidebook information, so don't expect consistency from me on that point, at least not when it comes to battle power lists (in an actual strength debate, I take them more seriously). With that being said, the Daizenshuu based base Gotenks' power on the anime filler where he fought Boo. We also know from the JSAT special that Gotenks fought a Freeza-tier opponent. Whether Abo and Cado were stronger than first form, or true form Freeza, or individually or fused, that's all vague and up to interpretation, but the fact that Gotenks turned SS at all against an opponent that had been compared to Freeza is very telling. Base Goku, of course, in BoG was also compared to Freeza as we know and Gotenks and Goku didn't have dissimilar performances against Beerus. Modern Dragon Ball, at least, seems not to think very highly of base Gotenks.
As for Vegetto, there's not much to work with in the manga proper. He went Super Saiyan and that's it. But as I said in the post above yours, a scale which puts base Vegetto closer to Gohan Boo much like the anime is a perfectly legitimate approach.
What? Gohan actually got stronger but he's weaker? That makes no sense man. Old Kaioshin just unlocked his potential, so Gohan is back at using SSJ to that into further potential he hasn't managed to use.
Also, I think there's more bloat than that. Trunks is far stronger than Goten, Baby admits as much when using Goten's body. Hell Trunks might be stronger than Base Rild since he could resist Kid Baby's absorption. Though this would mean Goku was holding back on Rild.
Gohan got stronger in his base form but can't access his ultimate state for whatever reason. Super did the same thing. For whatever reason, both GT and Super forgot ultimate Gohan existed. We know that "transforming" is simply thematically against elder Kaioshin's entire purpose for the ritual, so I was never a fan of the headcanon that Gohan can stack SS with ultimate, or that he uses SS to access his ultimate state.
Trunks may be stronger than I gave him credit for considering he one shots Motchi, who defeated SS Goku, and resists Bebi like you said, but at the same time Trunks says he hasn't been training and admits that Vegeta, who had trouble with Goten and Gohan, and especially Piccolo, who shouldn't have got much stronger from Z, were both stronger than him.
Why are Goku and Vegeta so weak in the beginning of the series? Goku's image training shows him killing Cell in one punch and ready to engage Pure Boo as a SSJ1. SSJ2 Vegeta could also hold his own against Beerus with his enraged power, when Gotenks and Gohan got one shot.
I don't think Goku's image training is meant to be taken as an indicator for much, but if you want an explanation, you can just assume he was imagining base Perfect Cell, and not Super Perfect Cell. As for Boo, that's typical Goku just testing himself. In regards to Vegeta, again another thing that doesn't really matter much. All we know is that he's stronger than SS3 Goku. He may held out better against Beerus than Gotenks and Gohan, but unless you want to claim that SS2 enraged Vegeta is relative to Beerus, then it's irrelevant at the end of the day, since they're all ants to Beerus. Beerus himself implies he only let Vegeta get a couple of hits in because he wanted to see if he was going to transform.
I don't understand your reason for Super Vegetto > SSJG. Because Gogeta, after the Saiyans powered up a lot is stronger than SSJG it means a weaker Vegetto must also be?
Is there any reason in particular for Hit to be a whooping 3x above Blue Vegeta, who in turn is 5x stronger than SSJ Goku? Goku did fight him evenly after figuring out Time Skip.
Goku Black clearly was no Super Saiyan 2. Look at his hair, Goku is the easiest saiyan to distinguish forms.
Again, this is just personal choice. I dislike that fusions are seemingly arbitrary in how they scale with each other so I wanted to find some logic and consistency. In an actual debate, I likely wouldn't argue that Z Vegetto and DBS Gogeta/Vegetto scale linearly with each other, but this is a battle power list based on (faulty) mathematics, not a debate or a strength tier list.
Hit is weird because Beerus states he's weaker physically than Goku yet we know that he is powerful enough to defeat 10% SSB Vegeta who should logically be much stronger than SS Goku and impervious to any attacks from a much weaker opponent, even one with time powers. Later Hit powers-up and is able to freeze SSG Goku and at full power even dodge SSB Goku's Kamehameha. In the ToP, we even see him arguably outdoing SSB Goku against Jiren. I concede I have no idea how to gauge his power so I just assume he's somewhere between 10% SSB Vegeta and SSG Goku and ignore the SS Goku vs Hit portion.
Goku Black has Goku's SS1 hair but has SS2 sparks. Much like Super Vegetto, you could argue he's just using SS1 and sparks are there to portray how ridiculously powerful he is. I would agree, but again, I took this interpretative liberty and made this headcanon so that numbers wouldn't bloat much more than they already do with that arc. A lot of headcanon! But what are battle powers if not headcanon? Super and GT are so inconsistent with the original series that I honestly can't take the scaling much to heart and just kinda bend it as long as it allows for it.