Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Thu Dec 17, 2020 5:26 pm

Kaboom wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 11:26 am
Powar Levuls with Kaboom:
The "Super-Strong Base Fusions" Experimental List
When it comes to "fusion multipliers", I think like Vertical. There are so many variables that one can work themselves crazy trying to make everything fit into a given formula. Specially for the people who have Post Rosat Base Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku, but luckily for you that's not your case.

As for Super Saiyan multipliers themselves. Well they are never said to be smaller, but if you wanna be a purist they aren't even multipliers period. Kaio-Ken is a multiplier, a technique were you call a number to multiply your power; SSJ draws from dormant power and emotions. Maybe the multipliers we have are just generalizations: The Super Exciting Guide does give the common multipliers on a section dedicated to Goku's power ups, after all.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:52 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 4:57 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:25 pm
I believe it’s also debatable wether (DB Super) Broli’s Super Saiyan works the same as the regular Super Saiyan or not, given its special treatment. He clearly has no problem with dealing with 2 Super Saiyan Blue, but it’s odd that Golden Freeza (more or less on that level) can withstand that much pain from someone with 50-fold his strength for a hour. (!) :lol:
Freeza is very durable. The guy survived an exploding planet with barely any Ki, twice.
Perhaps I’m giving too much credit for a obvious joke from the movie, but I don’t think this kind of durability is what makes Freeza last so much in that battle. He is much weaker than Broli, of course, and has incredible life force, but not to an extent that makes him a totally pushover, right? Even the novel describes their fight as Freeza giving a little fight, something I can’t picture with that much difference in strength. 50-fold seems too much for my tastes, but may be somewhat justifiable by the franchise being too bloated with numbers in general.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:11 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:52 pm
ZombieVito wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 4:57 pm
Hugo Boss wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:25 pm
I believe it’s also debatable wether (DB Super) Broli’s Super Saiyan works the same as the regular Super Saiyan or not, given its special treatment. He clearly has no problem with dealing with 2 Super Saiyan Blue, but it’s odd that Golden Freeza (more or less on that level) can withstand that much pain from someone with 50-fold his strength for a hour. (!) :lol:
Freeza is very durable. The guy survived an exploding planet with barely any Ki, twice.
Perhaps I’m giving too much credit for a obvious joke from the movie, but I don’t think this kind of durability is what makes Freeza last so much in that battle. He is much weaker than Broli, of course, and has incredible life force, but not to an extent that makes him a totally pushover, right? Even the novel describes their fight as Freeza giving a little fight, something I can’t picture with that much difference in strength. 50-fold seems too much for my tastes, but may be somewhat justifiable by the franchise being too bloated with numbers in general.
It's only 50-fold if you assume base Broly is as strong as Super Saiyan Blue/Golden Freeza. Broly was using his controlled Oozaru form to deal with Super Saiyan God Goku and he was clearly on the losing end once Goku turned Super Saiyan Blue. Assuming he receives the same x10 boost from Oozaru, then he would only become 5x stronger upon transforming (assuming both forms don't stack with each-other, and they likely don't). Something like this works:

Broly: 1
-- Wrath: 10
-- SS: 50

SSG Goku: 7.5
-- SSB: 15

G. Freeza: 15

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:48 pm

Yes, there is that too... So, more or less a 3-to-5-fold advantage makes me accept that scene a little easier, which also makes Super Saiyan useful and not too bloated for Gogeta.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Fri Dec 25, 2020 7:57 pm

Power Levels on this movie were the worse we ever got in this franchise, I mean if this movie was set into Cell to Boo arc timeline, I could buy a random prodigy nobody to go toe-on-toe with SSJ and SSJ2, but to freaking God transformations? Not only that but to be necessary a fusion to transform into God to be able to finish him off? Almost puked while writing this. (probably gonna post that on the movie thread)

But anyway, ignoring anime BS: how strong are actually Gotenks and Vegetto on their base forms?
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Dec 25, 2020 10:56 pm

Noah wrote:
Fri Dec 25, 2020 7:57 pm
how strong are actually Gotenks and Vegetto on their base forms?
Probably not strong enough to defeat the Boo they are supposed to defeat. It’s also debatable if even SS3 Gotenks could defeat the evil Boo.

On a side note, I don’t know if anyone posted here, but we had two new sets of the Bandai chibi stickers post-March.


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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Sat Dec 26, 2020 9:52 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
Fri Dec 25, 2020 10:56 pm
Probably not strong enough to defeat the Boo they are supposed to defeat. It’s also debatable if even SS3 Gotenks could defeat the evil Boo.
Yea, but that wasn't what my question was about. I want to know how strong they are in Base, if Gotenks is like > SSJ Vegeta and Vegetto > SSJ2 Goku, something like this.

Also I don't think is debatable that Super Gotenks 3 could defeat Super Boo, cause I think he definitely would. The main problem with this fight is that he wasted enough time, that's why he lost when was about to finish him off.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Dec 26, 2020 12:06 pm

Noah wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 9:52 am
Hugo Boss wrote:
Fri Dec 25, 2020 10:56 pm
Probably not strong enough to defeat the Boo they are supposed to defeat. It’s also debatable if even SS3 Gotenks could defeat the evil Boo.
Yea, but that wasn't what my question was about. I want to know how strong they are in Base, if Gotenks is like > SSJ Vegeta and Vegetto > SSJ2 Goku, something like this.

Also I don't think is debatable that Super Gotenks 3 could defeat Super Boo, cause I think he definitely would. The main problem with this fight is that he wasted enough time, that's why he lost when was about to finish him off.
The manga doesn’t shed a light on this matter, and since you don’t like the anime, there is no answer to that. It’s only said that Gotenks can’t beat Boo without Super Saiyan forms. His SS form is also no match for the evil Boo, while his SS3 may have the power to beat him, but Boo himself had interest in keeping Gotenks around, so he probably wouldn’t try to kill him. It’s only after he felt Gohan’s power far away that he started to think about some way to overcome someone else.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sat Dec 26, 2020 3:02 pm

Noah wrote:
Fri Dec 25, 2020 7:57 pm
Power Levels on this movie were the worse we ever got in this franchise, I mean if this movie was set into Cell to Boo arc timeline, I could buy a random prodigy nobody to go toe-on-toe with SSJ and SSJ2, but to freaking God transformations? Not only that but to be necessary a fusion to transform into God to be able to finish him off? Almost puked while writing this. (probably gonna post that on the movie thread)

But anyway, ignoring anime BS: how strong are actually Gotenks and Vegetto on their base forms?
Well the basic thing about fusions is that fusion > fusers, so at the very least we know Base Gotenks > SSJ Kids and Base Vegetto > SSJ3 Goku. Daizenshuu 2 makes the later very clear.

Now getting into specifics. I don't think Base Gotenks has to be anything special initially, some folks think he's stronger than SSJ2s but I find the logic behind that pretty weak. But after the Rosat, both Piccolo and Trunks thought he could beat Majin Boo without SSJ anymore, and that's after Super Boo was confirmed to be stronger than SSJ Gotenks. So he's probably somewhat stronger than even SSJ3 Goku and Pre Rosat SSJ Gotenks.

With Vegetto, Old Kaioshin said Goku and Gohan could beat Boo no problemo in base if they merged. Old Kaioshin also says Vegetto is definitely "the strongest" in terms of fusions, so the anime depiction of Base Vegetto vs Gohan-Boo might actually be fairly accurate.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Mireya » Sun Dec 27, 2020 10:01 am

A little late to the party, but I still wanted to wish everyone a merry Christmas and a very happy new year. Best to you all!

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Mireya » Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:37 am

Guys, do you think that the SSJB in the dragon ball super manga is roughly 10x SSJ? That seems to be implied by less than 10% Blue Vegeta not being that much stronger than SSJ Goku, considering their performance vs suppressed Hit.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:43 am

It’s difficult to tell. Even Base Goku performed better than SSBlue Vegeta due to his quickly read of Hit’s movements, and probably due to Hit underestimating him as well. Actually, it’s only after Goku uses SSGod that he affects time-skip efficiency and it’s claimed to have surpassed Vegeta’s SSBlue level from before.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:23 pm

Mireya wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:37 am
Guys, do you think that the SSJB in the dragon ball super manga is roughly 10x SSJ? That seems to be implied by less than 10% Blue Vegeta not being that much stronger than SSJ Goku, considering their performance vs suppressed Hit.
Whis only states that Goku's surpassed Hit when he goes Super Saiyan God. In Super Saiyan, Goku is able to keep up because he's able to predict Time-Skip (whereas Vegeta couldn't). So SSB > SSG > 10% SSB > SS.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:56 pm

A bit of an experimental list on my part since I've been going with a very minimalist approach for years, though it's mostly a very standard Cell Saga list. I also try my hand at some MSSJ/FPSSJ/Grade 4 SSJ > SSJ Grade 3 in terms of power boosts.
Mireya wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:37 am
Guys, do you think that the SSJB in the dragon ball super manga is roughly 10x SSJ? That seems to be implied by less than 10% Blue Vegeta not being that much stronger than SSJ Goku, considering their performance vs suppressed Hit.
Not even close for me. If Vegeta was at less than 10% but was still stronger than SSJ Goku by whatever margin, then SSJB can't be 10x SSJ. Maybe SSJG could, but I still don't think that's the case. Hit was rather intrigued by Goku and was willing to hold back against base Goku, so it makes sense that he wouldn't go that hard on SSJ Goku. He even kept asking Goku to just go blue, showing he wasn't going all out on him yet.

I think Goku and Vegeta's lower forms haven't changed much if at all since Battle of Gods or even the Boo Arc, so the gap might be dozens, maybe hundreds of times for me.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:30 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: snip
Haven't dwelled in power levels in a long time, might be going by memory for a bunch.

- Glad someone agrees Trunks is holding back in his first appearance.

- I don't remember Freeza's whole demeanor but logically I would put him at least 10% stronger than Namek Goku. But it's Freeza..., so for all we know he's barely stronger than his Namek self and thinks Goku got lucky.

- I usually barely give Goku any gains in Yardrat since he spent most of the time learning shunkan idõ and controlling SSJ, plus it would make his gains in the 3 gap year even worse.

- Yeah #19 and #20 are pretty darn weak, how much is just a matter of preference. They just need to be stronger than Base Saiyans and weaker than Piccolo. The trio of Saiyans I usually have a little more of gap between them but it's whatever.

- Strongly disagree with #18's power and her group. I have her moderately/slightly above Vegeta, they are evenly matched during battle. With the Android prevailing since she takes no damage and doesn't tire.
#17 also admits the whole group would defeat her if they helped Vegeta, which shouldn't happen if she was that above.

For reference:
Chapter: 353 (DBZ 159), P1.1-3
Context: after Trunks, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, and Kuririn arrive
No.17: “My my, some help has arrived. Even No.18 probably won’t be able to take them all on. No choice, shall I go? Or will you go, No.16?”


Chapter: 353 (DBZ 159), P12.4-6
Context: after Trunks says Vegeta seems to be doing OK fighting No.18
Piccolo: “Vegeta’s going to be killed…[ ] Watch…Bit by bit, the android is starting to push him back. It’s because his enemy’s power never falls at all, while Vegeta’s stamina falls the more he moves.”


- I would have Piccolo significantly stronger post-RoSaT.

- Regarding base forms/SSJ, I'm pretty on board with your assessment. I usually keep Base Forms even lower than you since the focus after a certain point is new grades and finally mastering SSJ as a normal state.

Overall pretty good list, I ended up writting more than I wanted so sorry for not going into detail regarding Cell but it seems solid at a glance.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:56 am

Noah wrote:
Fri Dec 25, 2020 7:57 pm
Power Levels on this movie were the worse we ever got in this franchise, I mean if this movie was set into Cell to Boo arc timeline, I could buy a random prodigy nobody to go toe-on-toe with SSJ and SSJ2, but to freaking God transformations? Not only that but to be necessary a fusion to transform into God to be able to finish him off? Almost puked while writing this. (probably gonna post that on the movie thread)

But anyway, ignoring anime BS: how strong are actually Gotenks and Vegetto on their base forms?
Daizenshuu confirms Vegetto in the Boo arc surpassed Super Saiyan 3 (Goku or Gotenks? You decide) in base. Obviously this changes when they get god forms since base Gogeta >= Blue Goku/Vegeta.

Gotenks is piss weak in base. SS Gotenks pre RoSaT wasn't even stronger than Majin SS2 Vegeta and considering he spent a week there, he shouldn't be worlds apart after it. I don't even have him breaking 200 million in base.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:58 pm

LightBing wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:30 pm
Haven't dwelled in power levels in a long time, might be going by memory for a bunch.

-Glad someone agrees Trunks is holding back in his first appearance.
Funny because I picked this one from you actually. People put a lot of emphasis on the rumours line, but unless Gohan and Bulma believed Yardrat Goku could defeat the Androids (Unlikely since Trunks says his strength only gave him “little hope”), the rumours were more about his resolve and willpower than actual power.
- I don't remember Freeza's whole demeanor but logically I would put him at least 10% stronger than Namek Goku. But it's Freeza..., so for all we know he's barely stronger than his Namek self and thinks Goku got lucky.
Well he did bring his papa to help him, so he probably wasn’t so sure on winning by himself.
- I usually barely give Goku any gains in Yardrat since he spent most of the time learning shunkan idõ and controlling SSJ, plus it would make his gains in the 3 gap year even worse.
Yep, Goku also says the Yardratians are really weak but have a lot of techniques, and Vegeta says the same thing. Just tried giving him a bit of a boost here since Super kinda implies training on Yardrat is quite a power up with Vegeta’s recent time there.
- Yeah #19 and #20 are pretty darn weak, how much is just a matter of preference. They just need to be stronger than Base Saiyans and weaker than Piccolo. The trio of Saiyans I usually have a little more of gap between them but it's whatever.
How strong do you have Piccolo and the Initial Androids, exactly?

I keep going back and forth with how strong they are supposed to be. Nobody but Goku knew Freeza’s full power, so all the comparisons between Piccolo, the Androids and him were based on that suppressed level of his (Meaning Piccolo is really weak) or just a generalization. The fact the Androids couldn’t be sensed doesn’t help with the comparisons.
- Strongly disagree with #18's power and her group. I have her moderately/slightly above Vegeta, they are evenly matched during battle. With the Android prevailing since she takes no damage and doesn't tire.
#17 also admits the whole group would defeat her if they helped Vegeta, which shouldn't happen if she was that above.
I don’t actually disagree with that, I just stretched the numerical gap to round some numbers up. 18 had her hands full with Vegeta and there’s even evidence they’re equals in guidebooks, but she’s most likely stronger.
- I would have Piccolo significantly stronger post-RoSaT.
Nah. I gave him a 4x power up since it seemed to be the average 1 year Rosat gain in my numbers - Vegeta got a 4x boost in each trip - but Piccolo might get less of a boost since he didn’t have sparring partners outside of filler and thought 2nd form Cell was invincible.
- Regarding base forms/SSJ, I'm pretty on board with your assessment. I usually keep Base Forms even lower than you since the focus after a certain point is new grades and finally mastering SSJ as a normal state.
Like below 50% Freeza, maybe even in the 7 digits figures? Yeah I think that’s a valid placement as well. Training in base got kinda abandoned after SSJ was introduced, and for a while I even suspected base Goku’s power was frozen on his Namek level, and the others were just around it. But in reality
Overall pretty good list, I ended up writting more than I wanted so sorry for not going into detail regarding Cell but it seems solid at a glance.
Thanks! As I said before this is just a prototype and I’m most likely releasing a remade version soon, one including the arcs before and after it from Z.

But wait, there’s something I want to discuss. There’s this theory I’ve been trying to make work. Do you think SSJ1s can still improve after the form is mastered? Goku told Gohan they went as far as they could and the Daizenshuu 2 even calls Goku a “Full Power Super Saiyan”, emphasizing his reaching the peak of the form.

This of course would mean the SSJ2 varies just like the SSJ1 did, with more subtle “grade” tiering. Trunks thought Vegeta was stronger than Goku at first glance, and even when sensing SSJ1 Goku vs Yakon it still took his SSJ2 burst for Vegeta to know he was outmatched. Gohan also seemed to have gotten weaker only as a SSJ2 (Confirmed in the Daizenshuu 2), making the chain go Gohan > Vegeta > Goku for SSJ1, and Goku > Vegeta > Gohan for SSJ2.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:11 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:58 pm
But wait, there’s something I want to discuss. There’s this theory I’ve been trying to make work. Do you think SSJ1s can still improve after the form is mastered? Goku told Gohan they went as far as they could and the Daizenshuu 2 even calls Goku a “Full Power Super Saiyan”, emphasizing his reaching the peak of the form.

This of course would mean the SSJ2 varies just like the SSJ1 did, with more subtle “grade” tiering. Trunks thought Vegeta was stronger than Goku at first glance, and even when sensing SSJ1 Goku vs Yakon it still took his SSJ2 burst for Vegeta to know he was outmatched. Gohan also seemed to have gotten weaker only as a SSJ2 (Confirmed in the Daizenshuu 2), making the chain go Gohan > Vegeta > Goku for SSJ1, and Goku > Vegeta > Gohan for SSJ2.
If I'm not mistaken, Toriyama in an interview said that every SS form is an improvement of the original SS, and that Goku could end up mastering regular SS, dropping the need of accessing the stronger forms. But that goes out the window in the manga where Goku and Vegeta use SS2. In the Broly movie they seem to use just SS, though.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:21 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:58 pm
How strong do you have Piccolo and the Initial Androids, exactly?

I keep going back and forth with how strong they are supposed to be. Nobody but Goku knew Freeza’s full power, so all the comparisons between Piccolo, the Androids and him were based on that suppressed level of his (Meaning Piccolo is really weak) or just a generalization. The fact the Androids couldn’t be sensed doesn’t help with the comparisons.
Unfortunately I can't find my old power level list, I can still share the thought process.

For the Androids, I use the logic you mentioned in the previous post. Yamcha was a good source of energy, they even thought he was Goku. So get your Yamcha number(or around that), multiply it by 4 - since they are aware of Kaioken x4 -, finally add enough that would make defeating such opponent easy-peasy(25% gap for me usually works).

I remember having them as extremely weak, below 50% SSJ Goku.

Piccolo I really don't remember, tendency for stronger than weaker. He trained for 3 years with a SSJ, he got most of the benefits while Goku not so much.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:58 pm
Nah. I gave him a 4x power up since it seemed to be the average 1 year Rosat gain in my numbers - Vegeta got a 4x boost in each trip - but Piccolo might get less of a boost since he didn’t have sparring partners outside of filler and thought 2nd form Cell was invincible.
There's an interaction with Goku in the wait for the Cell Games and his efforts against the Cell Jrs that formulate my number. Would need to revisit both, I just remember making him pretty darn strong jsomewhat below Vegeta and Trunks.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:58 pm
Like below 50% Freeza, maybe even in the 7 digits figures? Yeah I think that’s a valid placement as well. Training in base got kinda abandoned after SSJ was introduced, and for a while I even suspected base Goku’s power was frozen on his Namek level, and the others were just around it. But in reality

Pretty sure they never get to 7 digits in my old numbers. The story pretty much tells us Base reached it's top in Namek, exponential growth, zenkais and finally evolution into SSJ, further increase would be slow.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:58 pm
But wait, there’s something I want to discuss. There’s this theory I’ve been trying to make work. Do you think SSJ1s can still improve after the form is mastered? Goku told Gohan they went as far as they could and the Daizenshuu 2 even calls Goku a “Full Power Super Saiyan”, emphasizing his reaching the peak of the form.
Yes, for me it's the intention of mastering SSJ. It's the intention of Toriyama. Let me throw a quote at you:

Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P7.2-7
Tenshinhan: “…Hey, Goku and Gohan were Super Saiyans just now, right? But even so, they were very…how do I say this?...Natural-feeling…”
Piccolo: “…I think there’s no doubt that they were Super Saiyans…However, they’ve trained so that they can exist in that state at an ordinary, everyday level…”
Trunks: “S-so then…When they fight, they’ll [perform] an ev-even more tremendous transformation…!”
Vegeta: “Are you an idiot?...You don’t seem to think things over…They’ve judged that state as the best! If they get used to that as a matter of habit, then even if they raise their battle power, the strain on their body is very small! [ ] They’ve thought this through…”


Vegeta talks about raising their power level. Before you had Base times whatever multiplier SSJ gives. Since base form reached it's plateau, Goku and Vegeta had use their brain since brute force wouldn't do it, it also presented an interesting plot point in the story.

Vegeta "ascends" going for the grades which give better multipliers with consequences.
Goku masters SSJ to the point he can control it's power totally.
A mastered SSJ can now raise his power beyond the multiplier and below it. It's detached from the Base form because it is a new Base Form.

Regarding SSJ2 and SSJ3, the latter clearly looks like a grade. SSJ2 was never said to have any weakness, but Trunks masters it in the Super manga. At the same time Gotenks just ignores it in the Boo Arc. Plus like Koitsukai wrote above Toriyama himself says SSJ2 and SSJ3 are power up variations.

Of course the context was right after BoG and Super loved to use SSJ2 and SSJ3 but all material with more direct input by Toriyama goes the Base - SSJ - SSB route with the Broly movie being the latest.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:58 pm
Thanks! As I said before this is just a prototype and I’m most likely releasing a remade version soon, one including the arcs before and after it from Z.
Nice, I'll be doing a new list as well since I'm re-reading the manga soon. Have you ever done Pre-Raditz numbers? Feels like very few people give it a go.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DBZ Macky » Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:15 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
Fri Dec 25, 2020 10:56 pm
On a side note, I don’t know if anyone posted here, but we had two new sets of the Bandai chibi stickers post-March.
I really like how these stickers seem surprisingly accurate most of the time, but they're not always free of error.
Notice how these ones have Base Vegeta (Post Namek) and Base Goku (Namek) < 2nd Form Freeza, which contradicts the numbers given in the Manga and the Daizenshuu. That being said, I still do find them quite interesting and wish someone would catalog them :P
Kaboom wrote:
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Powar Levuls with Kaboom:
The "Super-Strong Base Fusions" Experimental List
I know you have rather strong feelings about Super, but there's this one scene in it that I really like because it kind of retroactively fixes all the "Base Saiyans are stronger than Freeza/18/Shin/Piccolo" stuff as well as the Super Saiyan multipliers feeling underwhelming in the Boo arc.

In the scene, Base Goku is able to fight on par with SS2 Caulifla because of his skill even though their battle powers should be relative to each other in their Base forms. Now this doesn't mean that the SS2 multiplier actually shrunk, it's literally spelled out that by the time of Super, Goku is skilled enough to fight on that level without transforming.

So now, if we apply this knowledge to the Boo arc, life becomes a lot easier. Let's say that Goku and Vegeta can't quite fight at the level of a Super Saiyan 2 yet, but close enough to the vanilla Super Saiyan form. This explains both Beerus feeling Base Goku couldn't defeat Freeza and Vegeta boasting he could win the 25th without transforming, not to mention Babidi/Dabura somehow recognizing the Saiyans as the strongest fighters at the time even though they were hiding their Ki.

Gotenks on the other hand isn't quite as skilled, but he more than makes up for it with his crazy techniques. Most of them are literally just his normal punches and kicks except with a name, but a few such as the Super Ghost Kamikaze attack let him surpass Fat Boo and perhaps even SS3 Goku. You could even say that Goten and Trunks developed these techniques in the RoSaT and that's why they were so confident in facing Boo.

I'll use my Boo arc numbers as an example, they're quite similar to your powar levuls list:
(All of these numbers being in units of millions)

Goten/Trunks: 40-ish
Goku/Vegeta: 60
Gotenks: 100
#18: 300
SS Goten/SS Trunks/Piccolo/Shin: 2,000-ish
Base Goku/Vegeta (Fighting Skillfully): upto 3,000 (I guess 2,250 if you want to give it an exact number)
SS Goku/Vegeta: 3,000
SS Gotenks: 5,000
SS2 Goku/Vegeta: 6,000 (Gotenks doesn't surpass them until the RoSaT training)
Fat Boo: 10,000
SS3 Goku (Vs. Fat Boo): 12,000
SS3 Goku (Vs. Pure Boo): 18,000
Pure Boo: 22,000
SS3 Goku (Full Power): 24,000
Gotenks (Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack): 25,000 (The form he's in probably doesn't change the power of the technique much)
Evil Boo: 32,000
SS3 Gotenks: 40,000
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:You're in the DB community, it's always a power level thread to someone.

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