I'd say that's mostly a low end estimative since Gero said SSJ was a power up beyond what he calculated when he first saw it, but it was still within a level they could handle. So Androids >> SSJ (Gero's initial calculations) >/>> Expected Kaio-Ken Goku.LightBing wrote: ↑Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:21 pm
Unfortunately I can't find my old power level list, I can still share the thought process.
For the Androids, I use the logic you mentioned in the previous post. Yamcha was a good source of energy, they even thought he was Goku. So get your Yamcha number(or around that), multiply it by 4 - since they are aware of Kaioken x4 -, finally add enough that would make defeating such opponent easy-peasy(25% gap for me usually works).
I remember having them as extremely weak, below 50% SSJ Goku.
Piccolo I really don't remember, tendency for stronger than weaker. He trained for 3 years with a SSJ, he got most of the benefits while Goku not so much.
Yamcha also might be way more than 4 times weaker than Base Goku, who could only budge #20, but it's a good ground to start. I'd need to settle on how strong Yamcha is first though... Keep going back and forth between having him dozens of times below Base Goku or at over 50% of his power. Do you think this implies at least Tenshinhan is close to Base Goku due to their reaction time?
The conversation doesn't mean anything. Piccolo knew he was weak and Goku agreed, but some fanslations have him asking Goku how he compares to Cell. The fight happened mostly off screen, and I don't think Piccolo standing can really mean anything.There's an interaction with Goku in the wait for the Cell Games and his efforts against the Cell Jrs that formulate my number. Would need to revisit both, I just remember making him pretty darn strong jsomewhat below Vegeta and Trunks.
7 digits are the 1 million - 10 million place, so those must be some really old numbers...Pretty sure they never get to 7 digits in my old numbers. The story pretty much tells us Base reached it's top in Namek, exponential growth, zenkais and finally evolution into SSJ, further increase would be slow.
Yes, I agree completely. Goku was aiming to achieve the power Vegeta and Trunks had without deforming his body and worsening his stamina. I'd say that's the point of any power up past the Namek Saga since regular training and zenkais weren't doing the job anymore (Maybe the gains those yielded were closer to addition?), transformations and fusions alike.Yes, for me it's the intention of mastering SSJ. It's the intention of Toriyama. Let me throw a quote at you:
Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P7.2-7
Tenshinhan: “…Hey, Goku and Gohan were Super Saiyans just now, right? But even so, they were very…how do I say this?...Natural-feeling…”
Piccolo: “…I think there’s no doubt that they were Super Saiyans…However, they’ve trained so that they can exist in that state at an ordinary, everyday level…”
Trunks: “S-so then…When they fight, they’ll [perform] an ev-even more tremendous transformation…!”
Vegeta: “Are you an idiot?...You don’t seem to think things over…They’ve judged that state as the best! If they get used to that as a matter of habit, then even if they raise their battle power, the strain on their body is very small! [ ] They’ve thought this through…”
Vegeta talks about raising their power level. Before you had Base times whatever multiplier SSJ gives. Since base form reached it's plateau, Goku and Vegeta had use their brain since brute force wouldn't do it, it also presented an interesting plot point in the story.
Vegeta "ascends" going for the grades which give better multipliers with consequences.
Goku masters SSJ to the point he can control it's power totally.
A mastered SSJ can now raise his power beyond the multiplier and below it. It's detached from the Base form because it is a new Base Form.
Regarding SSJ2 and SSJ3, the latter clearly looks like a grade. SSJ2 was never said to have any weakness, but Trunks masters it in the Super manga. At the same time Gotenks just ignores it in the Boo Arc. Plus like Koitsukai wrote above Toriyama himself says SSJ2 and SSJ3 are power up variations.
Of course the context was right after BoG and Super loved to use SSJ2 and SSJ3 but all material with more direct input by Toriyama goes the Base - SSJ - SSB route with the Broly movie being the latest.
The first time ever SSJ forms were named and numbered, SSJ2 was actually called "Super Saiyan Grade 5", so it does seem like it's on the same branch as the bulky forms. Stuff after this like Daizenshuus 7 and 10 seem to place it in it's own branch though with SSJ3 though. I don't think any of them are grades, though SSJ3 certainly appears like an anomaly.
Yes, but when I do lists it's more like power scaling than power levels, with completely made up numbers. Battle Powers are a measure of Ki and that wasn't the main focus of their power back then. I have considered making a more experimental list listing Ki followed by other stats like power and speed, but I never really started it.Nice, I'll be doing a new list as well since I'm re-reading the manga soon. Have you ever done Pre-Raditz numbers? Feels like very few people give it a go.
Well he did say that, but even if it gets contradicted it might still be a possibilty, simply one Goku and Vegeta haven't followed or fully mastered yet.Koitsukai wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:11 pmIf I'm not mistaken, Toriyama in an interview said that every SS form is an improvement of the original SS, and that Goku could end up mastering regular SS, dropping the need of accessing the stronger forms. But that goes out the window in the manga where Goku and Vegeta use SS2. In the Broly movie they seem to use just SS, though.