Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[jjgp1112]

Yeah, I meant full power for Cell. I probably should've put that instead.

Also, for power gaps, I used the scale from that list Herms posted. A ~1.1x gap means there's a difference, but nothing that significant. The weaker fighter can win but they might require some smarts, too. A ~1,2x gap means that the difference is clear, but it's not completely hopeless for the weaker fighter. Their chance is slim, however. A ~1.3-1.5x gap means that there's an overwhelming difference and the weaker fighter has little chance of winning, and a 2x or higher gap means it's completely one-sided.

[dbgtFO]

Yet another take at Z Battle Powers now using a fanon theory shamelessly stolen from jackjack. Further explanations here in the search function:
http://daizex.fanboyreview.net/search.p ... &start=100

Elaboration of the fanon theory used:

Base: Base power correlates with highest Super Saiyan power, so until a Saiyan has surpassed the Super Saiyan wall, the difference between SSJ and base is the standard 50x. When you surpass the wall, any increase in higher states will translate to the same increase in base, so if you become twice as strong in Super Saiyan 2, you become twice as strong in base.

Super Saiyan: BP * 50, until you surpass the Super Saiyan Wall, which then means going from base to Super Saiyan gives a smaller increase than before.
-Super Saiyan Second Grade: BP * 150.
-Super Saiyan Third Grade: BP * 1,000.

Super Saiyan 2: Super Saiyan's strength * 2, initially it's this much, but until you surpass the Super Saiyan 2 Wall the difference between Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 will keep increasing until finally one's Super Saiyan 2 has become 5 times stronger than one's Super Saiyan at which point Super Saiyan 3 is the next step.
Before reaching Super Saiyan 3;
BP(Super Saiyan 2)/50 = BP(base).

Super Saiyan 3: Super Saiyan 2's strength * 4, a Saiyan's absolute limit.
BP(Super Saiyan 3)/50 = BP(base).

My reasoning for using the theory is also based on Old Kaioshin's comment about Super Saiyan not being the right way to do things, which I interpreted in the way that Super Saiyan is not the right way to bring out one's power and that it's possible for regular Saiyans to reach such power, Super Saiyan is just a much faster way of reaching that power.

Fusion
Entirely dictated by ~PLOT~.

Potara Merging
Character A's BP x Character B's BP.

The Cell Arc

Trunks the Story –A Lone Warrior–

Trunks: 3,000,000.
-Super Saiyan: 3,000,001.

Son Gohan: 3,300,000.
-Super Saiyan: 165,000,000.

#17: 250,000,000.
#18: 225,000,000.

3 years later...

Super Saiyan Trunks: 175,000,000.

The Boy from the Future

Mecha Freeza: 150,000,000.
King Cold: 90,000,000.

Trunks: 5.
-Full Power: 3,500,000.
-Super Saiyan: 175,000,000.

Son Goku: 4,000,000.
-Super Saiyan: 200,000,000.

Goku, Defeated!

Android No.20: 120,000,000.
Android No.19: 90,000,000.

Piccolo: 175,000,000.

Trunks: 4,000,000.
-Super Saiyan: 200,000,000.
Son Goku: 4,400,000.
-Super Saiyan: 220,000,000.
Vegeta: 4,500,000.
-Super Saiyan: 225,000,000.

Android No.18: 360,000,000.
Android No.17: 400,000,000.

Cell's Perfect Form, Achieved!!

Piccolo: 400,000,000.
-weighted: 350,000,000.

Android No.16: 600,000,000.

Vegeta: 18,000,000.
-Super Saiyan: 900,000,000.
--Second Grade: 2,700,000,000.

Trunks: 17,000,000.
-Super Saiyan: 850,000,000.
--Second Grade: 2,550,000,000.
---Third Grade: 17,000,000,000.

Cell: 300,000,000.
-after absorbing hundreds of thousands of people: 600,000,000.
-Second Form: 1,000,000,000.
--Full Power: 2,000,000,000.
-Perfect Form(warm-up): 2,360,000,000.
--Not warming up: 12,500,000,000.

The Cell Games Begin

Mister Satan: 6.66.

Yamcha: 200,000.
Tenshinhan: 300,000.
Krillin: 500,000.

Piccolo: 1,000,000,000.

Trunks: 300,000,000.
-Super Saiyan: 15,000,000,000.
Vegeta: 375,000,000.
-Super Saiyan: 18,750,000,000.

Cell Juniors: 20,000,000,000.

Son Goku: 500,000,000.
-Full Power Super Saiyan: 25,000,000,000.

Cell, Perfect Form: 12,500,000,000.
-Suppressed: 25,000,000,000.
-Full Power: 40,000,000,000.
--"Third Grade": 60,000,000,000.
-Even More Perfect: 80,000,000,000.

Son Gohan: 600,000,000.
-Full Power Super Saiyan: 30,000,000,000.
-Super Saiyan 2 + Anger: 100,000,000,000.

Peace for the Future...

#17: 250,000,000.
#18: 225,000,000.

Cell: 300,000,000.

Trunks: 300,000,000.
-Super Saiyan: 15,000,000,000.

The Majin Buu Arc

The Birth of A New Hero!!

Mister Satan: 6.66 - weakened from 6.666 in the Cell Games to 6.660 in the Buu Arc.

Videl: 6.667.
-After training: 10.

Son Goten: 300,000,000.
-Super Saiyan: 15,000,000,000.
Trunks: 320,000,000.
-Super Saiyan: 16,000,000,000.

Son Gohan: 1,200,000,000.
-Super Saiyan: 30,000,000,000.

The Plan is Set in Motion

#18: 360,000,000.

Kibito: 750,000,000.

Piccolo: 1,000,000,000.

Son Goten: 332,500,000.
-Super Saiyan: 15,750,000,000.
Trunks: 350,000,000.
-Super Saiyan: 17,500,000,000.

Shin (East Kaioshin): 15,000,000,000.
West Kaioshin: 20,000,000,000.
North Kaioshin: 25,000,000,000.
Great Kaioshin: 30,000,000,000.
South Kaioshin: 60,000,000,000.

Son Gohan: 1,500,000,000.
-Super Saiyan 2: 75,000,000,000.

Babidi: 18,000.
Pui Pui: 1,000,000,000.
Yakon: 6,666,666,666. - based on Yakon's kiri rating compared to SSJ Goku's kiri rating.
Dabra: 80,000,000,000.

Vegeta: 2,000,000,000.
-Super Saiyan 2: 100,000,000,000.
--Babidi Power Up: 125,000,000,000.

Son Goku: 10,000,000,000.
-Super Saiyan: 25,000,000,000. - equal to his Cell Games self.
-Burst of Super Saiyan 2: 95,000,000,000.
-Super Saiyan 2: 125,000,000,000.
-Super Saiyan 3: 500,000,000,000.
--holding back: 450,000,000,000.

Majin Buu (Fat): 90,000,000,000.
-Power-up 1: 150,000,000,000.
--Full Power: 400,000,000,000.

Gotenks: 9,975,000,000.
-Super Saiyan: 498,750,000,000.

Mr. Buu: 90,000,000,000.
Pure Evil Buu: 310,000,000,000.

The Terrible New Majin Buu

Majin Buu (evil): 400,000,000,000,000,000,000.
-With Super Gotenks & Piccolo: 900,000,000,000,000,000,000.
-With Gohan, the two squirts & Piccolo: 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.
-With South Kaioshin: 500,000,000,000,000,000,000.

Kaioshin(merged): 11,250,000,000,000,000,000. Yeah "Kibitoshin" is a beast by my numbers(Kaioshin x Kibito).

Gotenks: 10,000,000,000,000,000,000.
-Super Saiyan: 25,000,000,000,000,000,000.
-Super Saiyan 2: 125,000,000,000,000,000,000.
-Super Saiyan 3: 500,000,000,000,000,000,000.

Son Gohan, Ultimate: 600,000,000,000,000,000,000.

Hypothetical SSJ 3 Gogeta: 1,100,000,000,000,000,000,000.

Vegetto: 25,000,000,000,000,000,000.
-Super Saiyan: 1,250,000,000,000,000,000,000.

A Match with the Whole Universe at Stake

Super Saiyan 3 Goku: 500,000,000,000.
Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta: 125,000,000,000.
Mr. Buu: 90,000,000,000.
Mr. Satan: 6.66.

Genkidama: 1,000,000,000,000.

Majin Buu (pure): 500,000,000,000.

I decided to assume that Toriyama for the final major fight in the series decided to go against all his previous formulas for escalation of fights and instead of the opposition against the villain getting progressively stronger, it becomes progressively weaker instead!
Genkidama is the obvious exception of course.

[Akumaito Beam]

I'm not big into in-universe discussions so excuse me if this is an ignorant question. Is there a Battle Power guide out there that's generally accepted to be pretty accurate? I know there are guides that only transcribe the BPs from the manga but I'm looking more for a list where the writer makes a rough guess about where the other characters are power wise alongside the official numbers.

Again, sorry if this is a really commonly asked question. I have a feeling this is like wandering into General Franchise Discussion and asking "Who wrote Dragonball!?"

[Kaboom]

I'm not big into in-universe discussions so excuse me if this is an ignorant question. Is there a Battle Power guide out there that's generally accepted to be pretty accurate? I know there are guides that only transcribe the BPs from the manga but I'm looking more for a list where the writer makes a rough guess about where the other characters are power wise alongside the official numbers.

The awesome folks from over at Kanzentai recently put together a mega-guide of all you need to know about Battle Powers. It includes sources, descriptions, info from the manga, anime, and guidebooks, and a whole bunch of other stuff. It's all topped off with a combined list of every official numerical battle power, which are easily clicked on to lead to their source. There's one or two "obvious conjecture" numbers in there, like the assumption that the average Ginyu Force member would be between 30,000 and 60,000, but other than that, it's all official stuff.

[p123]

Trunks and Goku both should be well above Mecha Freeza's full power ... Mecha Freeza's full power is probably enough to beat SSJ Goku Namek, making 160 million suiting...


Trunks is supposed to insta kill Freeza regardless if he powered up or not, making 200 million suiting...

Trunks and Goku both residing in the 150-160 range, just doesn't make sense considering that...

Also, Suppressed Freeza and King Cold, should be at King Cold's full power. Nothing suggests that King Cold could suppress, and the Z Senshi are blown away by their power... 75-80 million makes sense here IMO...

[thefalseprophecy]

I really wish that the writers of Daizenshuu 7 would have given battle powers post-Freeza.

[p123]

Why? So we can have rushed battle powers who weren't given enough time to really sit down and figure out if they were done properly or not? There is a slew of good power level lists out there, you can come check out mine if you'd like, I like to think I did a rather good job of sticking to the manga...


Toriyama gave us about 100 power statements post Freeza, it's not as hard as it looks...

[thefalseprophecy]

You never know, they might have actually put some effort into an official list. Maybe. Figuring out who is stronger then who is much easier then applying numbers.

[p123]

The problem with that is the time frame. Look at when the numbers came out, and look at when the manga came out. There simply was not enough time for them to get it right. I've been doing this over a year or two now, and I'm still unsure of what path to take. Also, you are talking about a person who has dissected the entire manga, word for word, piece by piece... Looking at the official numbers, you can see they weren't able to get every piece of information, nor did they ever take them as drastically serious as your common power level nerd freak...

But at the end of the day, the time was just not there. And you can't expect accurate numbers, when someone is rushed to put out numbers in correlation with the manga..

[Kaboom]

nor did they ever take them as drastically serious as your common power level nerd freak...

That's not necessarily a bad thing!

[Rocketman]

Given that a power levels freak's list is 98% personal fan theory (aka made-up bullshit) and 2% vague lines twisted to fit the bullshit...

[CatouttaHell]

The problem with that is the time frame. Look at when the numbers came out, and look at when the manga came out. There simply was not enough time for them to get it right. I've been doing this over a year or two now, and I'm still unsure of what path to take. Also, you are talking about a person who has dissected the entire manga, word for word, piece by piece... Looking at the official numbers, you can see they weren't able to get every piece of information, nor did they ever take them as drastically serious as your common power level nerd freak...

But at the end of the day, the time was just not there. And you can't expect accurate numbers, when someone is rushed to put out numbers in correlation with the manga..

The Saiya-jin/Freeza arc levels are alright. I see nothing wrong with them.

Even I will admit that the Dragon Ball numbers are a complete mess though. Piccolo Daimao being at 260, Chichi being at 137, Roshi being at 180, God being at 220, etc is just laughable.

Given that a power levels freak's list is 98% personal fan theory (aka made-up bullshit) and 2% vague lines twisted to fit the bullshit...

I put the Daizenshuu/Super Exciting Guide/manga statements and feats before all personal bias except for instances where I can get away with it without contradicting anything so that's not true.

I know p123 enough to say that he's one of the most unbiased people around. I'll admit I don't agree at all with a great many of his ideas but he always puts the manga before personal biases.

[Kirby456]

Hey Catoutta got a question. Why do you believe Piano = 30 > Cymbal = 25. Just asking and am curious to know.

[dbgtFO]

Why? So we can have rushed battle powers who weren't given enough time to really sit down and figure out if they were done properly or not?

The problem with that is the time frame. Look at when the numbers came out, and look at when the manga came out. There simply was not enough time for them to get it right. I've been doing this over a year or two now, and I'm still unsure of what path to take. Also, you are talking about a person who has dissected the entire manga, word for word, piece by piece... Looking at the official numbers, you can see they weren't able to get every piece of information, nor did they ever take them as drastically serious as your common power level nerd freak...

But at the end of the day, the time was just not there. And you can't expect accurate numbers, when someone is rushed to put out numbers in correlation with the manga..

Not enough time? The Weekly Jump chart(the one with the infamous Raditz at 1,500, Nappa at 4,000 and obviously contradictory God < Piccolo Daimao etc.) was published a full month after Nappa's last appearance. Daizenshuu 7 was published approximately 5 years after the Freeza Arc ended. How is that not enough time? It's not like you need to study it for an extended period of time.

[p123]

Ok, don't know if I should start seperate thread for this , but movie explanations...

I'm still getting around to Movie 1 and 2 ( DBZ ) , but here I go...


Movie 3 occurs Post Vegeta Saga. In this timeline, the Z Senshi did not die somehow. Goku and Co. have improved dramatically, and since there was no need for them to wish anyone back to life, they had no need to say anything about Namek, and everyone goes on none the wiser. Vegeta/Freeza never plan to go to Namek, and Vegeta sits and plans his next attack on Earth, but is sent out on missions from Freeza. Since he does not have the immortality card at this point, Vegeta goes back to his regular servant status and apologizes to Freeza.

Goku and Co. train tremendously for a possible rematch with Vegeta and are blind sighted by Turles and his cronies. Gohan has surpassed the other Z Senshi besides obviously Piccolo and Goku... The events play out as expected.


Movie 4, is a bit tough. Movie 3 is canon to Movie 4 as Lord Slug reads Bulma's mind, and it shows the wish they made from Movie 3. Kaio does mention Freeza and SSJ to Goku, but IMO, I don't quite see Goku bumping heads with Freeza just yet. It's possible Kaio told him about him, or whatever way you want to work that, but I do not see the events of Namek going down. This movie wreaks of Piccolo Daimaio/Vegeta Saga copy pastes, and I don't see any Freeza Saga copy paste in there.

Honestly, I think that Freeza in Movie 3/4 is probably still 530,000 Freeza... I don't really see a need to mess with that. Kaio knows Freeza's true strength, but that hadn't happened yet, so TOEI wouldn't be aware of it etc etc... The highest form of Freeza I'm willing to make the Super Namek superior to, is Initial True Form Freeza...

These events probably occur a bit after a year from Tullece, so I think Goku being around 50,000-90,000 could be quite appropriate. Maybe more, maybe a lot more. Will have to check it out...

False SSJ, is just SSJ, without TOEI understanding how AT wanted it. So TOEI is on their own here, with the looks, and probably the power too. Goku used KKx10 against Turles, so we should at least make it superior to that, but I'm cool with using a 50x boost unless I run into issues.



Movie 5, occurs as if Freeza had died with Planet Namek. Goku gets sent to Yardrat and they teach him how to reroute the spaceship and he returns home. Goku promises to come back and learn some of their techniques once he gets his Super Saiyan form down pat. Goku comes home and trains his ass off for 6 months or so. Cooler arrives... Goku has improved dramatically, and is as strong as Trunks is when he arrives. Ah yes, Vegeta is in space.

Movie 6... Goku after defeating Cooler, decides he should head out to Yardrat and pick up some of those techniques. He arrives back in time to meet Trunks, except in this timeline there is no Mecha Freeza or King Cold, and Trunks just informs Goku what's going on. Everyone takes off to train, and Vegeta with his newly acquired SSJ comes to Goku's rescue. This movie takes place about 6 months or a year after Trunks message...

Movie 7, in this timeline, Goku got sick when he was supposed to, healed, and trained better than ever . This time he manages to be Vegeta's superior slightly. In this timeline, 17/18 are only as strong as their Future counterparts, no 16, and no Cell. Instead, 13/14/15 and Super Android 13 were Gero's masterpiece.

Movie 8 , the Z Senshi take a break from training and are awaiting the Cell Games, Goku and Gohan get yelled at by Chi Chi to not be SSJs and they listen.

Movie 10, this takes place when Gohan , Videl, and the boys are training for the Budokai...



What do you guys think?

[CatouttaHell]

Hey Catoutta got a question. Why do you believe Piano = 30 > Cymbal = 25. Just asking and am curious to know.

Oh, the Piano > Cymbal must've been a mistake. My fault.

I have them that low since Tambourine was stated in the Daizenshuu to be many times stronger than Cymbal.

Tambourine was fodder to Goku (Pre) who was fodder to Old Piccolo Daimao while using less than half of his power, who was apparently much weaker than Young Piccolo Daimao, who was a lot weaker than 23rd Tenkaichi Budoukai Tenshinhan.

There's really no way around having everybody under Piccolo Daimao low as hell due to the crazy low numbers at the beginning of Z.

Best to just assume everybody Pre-Piccolo Daimao relied on physical strength entirely (which the Daizenshuu and the manga heavily imply) and have insanely low Ki values.

Then you can give Buff Roshi and Post-Choshinsui Goku the 10x multipliers that are implied for them.

[p123]

I'm cool with throwing out Piccolo Daimaio's statements. The less than half power and many times greater.

COH can you link me to the article with AT confirming Bob Sapp > Mr Satan?

I'm currently really working on my DB levels . I think I have completely mastered DBZ , and the movies I'm pretty much done with.

Early DB is an issue though, but I'm dedicating some serious time and watching every episode straight through including movies and GT. This will probably take some time lol...

COH I'm thinking something along these lines...

Roshi 80
Grandpa Gohan 77
Ox king 75
Goku 30
Yamcha 27
Kuririn 22
Bear Thief 20
Bob Sapp 15
Mr Satan 10

And!

Roshi 80
Buff 160
KHH 120

Or so... Still working on it...


If people are tanking each other left and right, that just means ki blasts are stupid weak, starting Goku off with a .25x amplification rate and allowing him time to progress naturally over the course of the series.

I think Roshi and Co who have mastered their techniques have like .75x amplification.

Tiens Kikoho would be 1.25 or maybe a bit higher, and that would be tremendous for this time, I think its all going to work out nice...

[Fox666]

Cell Games

- Gohan: 2,900
--- Super Saiyan 2: 5,800
- Goku: 2,600
- Vegeta: 2,200
- Trunks: 2,100
- Piccolo: 2,000

- Cell: 3,100
--- max power: 4,000
--- power-up: 5,800

Majin Boo

- Goku: 3,000
--- Super Saiyan 2: 6,000
- Vegeta: 2,700
--- power-up: 5,400
- Gohan: 2,500
--- Super Saiyan 2: 5,000
- Kaioshin: 2,500
- Trunks: 2,400
- Goten: 2,300

- Pui-pui: 30
- Yakon: 800
- Dabura: 4,000
- Majin Boo: 14,000

Evil Boo

- Trunks: 2,800
- Goten: 2,700
- Gotenks: 5,500
--- Super Saiyan 3: 44,000
- Gohan: 60,000
- Kaioshin: 5,000
- Goku: 3,000
- Vegeta: 3,000
- Vegetto: 180,000 (A x B works, at least in Kiri)

- Evil Boo: 50,000
--- Gotenks-absorbed: 96,000
--- Gohan-absorbed: 112,000

Pure Boo

- Goku: 3,000
--- Super Saiyan 3: 24,000
--- Genki Dama: 30,000
- Vegeta: 3,000
--- Super Saiyan 2: 6,000
- Majin Boo: 14,000

- Pure Boo: 25,000

[p123]

Lion Fang Style Guy vs Karate Bear vs Bruce Lee... Who's strongest?

[In Brightest Day]

Has anyone got a Power Level for Lime's Grandfather? And perhaps some PL's for Dragonball fighters like Nam, Bora, Chappa, General Blue etc. for a reference?