Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:30 pm

I agree there has to be some improvement of his spirit in Yadrat, not much in my opinion.

Besides, originally, Goku'd arrive on Earth and kill Freeza and Cold, when he barely beat Freeza on Namek. Nobody else had the power to help him, so he must've gotten stronger to the point that he could exterminate the Cold family on his own.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:12 pm

DanielSSJ wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:59 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:30 pmVegeta never trained his spirit so the gains were big. Goku already did with Kaio.
Even if his spirit wasn't as unpolished as Vegeta's, if it took him most of a year to master Shunkan Ido, there was definitely plenty of room for improvement. I'm not saying he doubled or tripled his strength or anything like that, but a 20 increase wouldn't be totally out of the question.
20?

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:49 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:12 pm
DanielSSJ wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:59 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 1:30 pmVegeta never trained his spirit so the gains were big. Goku already did with Kaio.
Even if his spirit wasn't as unpolished as Vegeta's, if it took him most of a year to master Shunkan Ido, there was definitely plenty of room for improvement. I'm not saying he doubled or tripled his strength or anything like that, but a 20 increase wouldn't be totally out of the question.
20?
20%. Whoops.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:49 pm

DanielSSJ wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:49 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 4:12 pm
DanielSSJ wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:59 pm
Even if his spirit wasn't as unpolished as Vegeta's, if it took him most of a year to master Shunkan Ido, there was definitely plenty of room for improvement. I'm not saying he doubled or tripled his strength or anything like that, but a 20 increase wouldn't be totally out of the question.
20?
20%. Whoops.
I guess 20% is fine. I personally have him at 170 million.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:53 am

ZombieVito wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:54 pm People have him that high? I think I have him at 130 million, 135 max.

We know from Super that Goku spent almost the entire time on Yadart learning IT so he shouldn't be that much stronger than on Namek.
Of course. He was ready to beat Goku this time. 135 million is like, Freeza's power on Namek.

Goku spending most of his time learning Shunkan Ido was from the original series. In Super it's said he's done over 100 days of spirit training beforehand. And following the premise of my original question there's also the possibility of Goku receiving a Zenkai after fighting Freeza.
DanielSSJ wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:59 pm Even if his spirit wasn't as unpolished as Vegeta's, if it took him most of a year to master Shunkan Ido, there was definitely plenty of room for improvement. I'm not saying he doubled or tripled his strength or anything like that, but a 20 increase wouldn't be totally out of the question.
Pybara does say Vegeta's spirit was rather unbalanced, but the boost Vegeta gained was way bigger than Goku's. I think Goku doubling his power is definitely possible, but that's on the higher end of things. 1.2x is definitely too low since Trunks has to fit in the middle, 1.33x is the lowest I'd go.
Koitsukai wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:30 pm Besides, originally, Goku'd arrive on Earth and kill Freeza and Cold, when he barely beat Freeza on Namek. Nobody else had the power to help him, so he must've gotten stronger to the point that he could exterminate the Cold family on his own.
To be fair, we don't know if Goku allowed Freeza to power up this time. I think Goku could beat a 100% Freeza because Trunks could, but that doesn't mean he fought a FP Freeza.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:02 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:53 am
ZombieVito wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:54 pm People have him that high? I think I have him at 130 million, 135 max.

We know from Super that Goku spent almost the entire time on Yadart learning IT so he shouldn't be that much stronger than on Namek.
Of course. He was ready to beat Goku this time. 135 million is like, Freeza's power on Namek.

Goku spending most of his time learning Shunkan Ido was from the original series. In Super it's said he's done over 100 days of spirit training beforehand. And following the premise of my original question there's also the possibility of Goku receiving a Zenkai after fighting Freeza.
DanielSSJ wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:59 pm Even if his spirit wasn't as unpolished as Vegeta's, if it took him most of a year to master Shunkan Ido, there was definitely plenty of room for improvement. I'm not saying he doubled or tripled his strength or anything like that, but a 20 increase wouldn't be totally out of the question.
Pybara does say Vegeta's spirit was rather unbalanced, but the boost Vegeta gained was way bigger than Goku's. I think Goku doubling his power is definitely possible, but that's on the higher end of things. 1.2x is definitely too low since Trunks has to fit in the middle, 1.33x is the lowest I'd go.
Koitsukai wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:30 pm Besides, originally, Goku'd arrive on Earth and kill Freeza and Cold, when he barely beat Freeza on Namek. Nobody else had the power to help him, so he must've gotten stronger to the point that he could exterminate the Cold family on his own.
To be fair, we don't know if Goku allowed Freeza to power up this time. I think Goku could beat a 100% Freeza because Trunks could, but that doesn't mean he fought a FP Freeza.
True, we don't know if Goku did exactly what Trunks did, and although that isn't how Goku does things, it is possible because Freeza will destroy the planet if he can't win and he has company.
But considering Freeza brought daddy to fight together(even though he believes he can take him on his own), I don't see how they wouldn't jump Goku together, or let Goku have an "easy" time.
Also, we don't know how far from his FP Freeza is. I don't think he could still bulk up like in Namek (his patches would fly away I guess?)


About the bolded part, the zenkai boosts were still a thing, and Goku took a hell of a beating in Namek, so a zenkai boost was indeed deserved. The last significant zenkai boost I think.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:54 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:53 am
ZombieVito wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:54 pm People have him that high? I think I have him at 130 million, 135 max.

We know from Super that Goku spent almost the entire time on Yadart learning IT so he shouldn't be that much stronger than on Namek.
Of course. He was ready to beat Goku this time. 135 million is like, Freeza's power on Namek.

Goku spending most of his time learning Shunkan Ido was from the original series. In Super it's said he's done over 100 days of spirit training beforehand. And following the premise of my original question there's also the possibility of Goku receiving a Zenkai after fighting Freeza.
DanielSSJ wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:59 pm Even if his spirit wasn't as unpolished as Vegeta's, if it took him most of a year to master Shunkan Ido, there was definitely plenty of room for improvement. I'm not saying he doubled or tripled his strength or anything like that, but a 20 increase wouldn't be totally out of the question.
Pybara does say Vegeta's spirit was rather unbalanced, but the boost Vegeta gained was way bigger than Goku's. I think Goku doubling his power is definitely possible, but that's on the higher end of things. 1.2x is definitely too low since Trunks has to fit in the middle, 1.33x is the lowest I'd go.
Koitsukai wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 3:30 pm Besides, originally, Goku'd arrive on Earth and kill Freeza and Cold, when he barely beat Freeza on Namek. Nobody else had the power to help him, so he must've gotten stronger to the point that he could exterminate the Cold family on his own.
To be fair, we don't know if Goku allowed Freeza to power up this time. I think Goku could beat a 100% Freeza because Trunks could, but that doesn't mean he fought a FP Freeza.
Freeza was 120 million on Namek.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:42 am

In regards to Freeza and Goku.

Goku said he spent most of his time mastering Shunkan Ido and Super Saiyan. I only put him marginally stronger than on Namek.

Freeza isn't even sure he can beat Goku by himself so that says it all about his power gain.

Chapter: 330 (DBZ 136), P13.3-4
Cold: “The Earthlings don’t matter, but the Super Saiyan alone we absolutely must exterminate, by any means. The one who holds the greatest power in the universe must without a doubt be our clan”
Freeza: “We can definitely defeat him if we go at him together, Papa. And I’ve powered up too, so I think I can probably go alone.”

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:44 am

SoulSurj wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 7:40 pm
Thani wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:29 pm When was Golden Oozaru equated with fusion, in terms of raw power?
There wasn't a direct statement. I calculated their multipliers when I compared the two to Baby Vegeta and found that they were about the same distance from Goku's base forms.

(Buu arc) Base Goku
Ssj 3 Buu Arc Goku= (GT) Base Goku
Ssj 3 (GT) Goku< Ssj Baby Vegeta
Ssj Baby Vegeta<= Super Vegito
Super Vegito> 160,000× (Buu arc) Base Goku
Super Baby 1= 2× Ssj Baby Vegeta
Super Baby 2 (4× Super Baby 1)= GO Goku
Golden Oozaru Goku> 3,200× (GT) Base Goku
GO Baby Vegeta/Ssj 4 Goku= 10× Super Baby 2
Gt base Goku>>>ssj3 Buu saga Goku*

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Mr Perfect Cell » Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:13 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:54 pm
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:08 pm Do we underestimate Mecha Freeza? Most people place him in the 150-160mil range since he was confident on fighting Goku. But it’s been a year since their last fight. What if Freeza expected Goku to have gotten stronger? He acknowledged back on Namek that Saiyans are always getting stronger, after all.

That would explain why Freeza sounds a bit uncertain. He can definitely beat Goku as he was back on Namek, but what about now?
People have him that high? I think I have him at 130 million, 135 max.

We know from Super that Goku spent almost the entire time on Yadart learning IT so he shouldn't be that much stronger than on Namek.
Same lol Frieza just a cocky fool

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:38 pm

Mr Perfect Cell wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:13 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:54 pm
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:08 pm Do we underestimate Mecha Freeza? Most people place him in the 150-160mil range since he was confident on fighting Goku. But it’s been a year since their last fight. What if Freeza expected Goku to have gotten stronger? He acknowledged back on Namek that Saiyans are always getting stronger, after all.

That would explain why Freeza sounds a bit uncertain. He can definitely beat Goku as he was back on Namek, but what about now?
People have him that high? I think I have him at 130 million, 135 max.

We know from Super that Goku spent almost the entire time on Yadart learning IT so he shouldn't be that much stronger than on Namek.
Same lol Frieza just a cocky fool
Yeah, Freeza at the time didn't know how to sense energy so he wouldn't know exactly how strong Goku was.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:23 pm

Mr Perfect Cell wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:13 pm Same lol Frieza just a cocky fool
You're a cocky fool.
ZombieVito wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:38 pm Yeah, Freeza at the time didn't know how to sense energy so he wouldn't know exactly how strong Goku was.
Ki sensing isn't the only way to gauge someone's strength. Freeza could estimate not only how strong Goku was, but also how much power he was holding back just by fighting him.

Chapter: 312 (DBZ 118), P2.3
Freeza: “You’re quite confident. But I’ve noticed that though you told me you’d fight seriously, you still have a considerable amount of power remaining…”

Knowing how strong someone is by fighting them is a pretty simple trick literally everyone in the series knows. Not to mention he and Goku were already fighting to a standstill back on Namek. It doesn't take a Ki senser to know any minimal power up would make him stronger than Goku.
LightBing wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:42 am Freeza isn't even sure he can beat Goku by himself so that says it all about his power gain.

Chapter: 330 (DBZ 136), P13.3-4
Cold: “The Earthlings don’t matter, but the Super Saiyan alone we absolutely must exterminate, by any means. The one who holds the greatest power in the universe must without a doubt be our clan”
Freeza: “We can definitely defeat him if we go at him together, Papa. And I’ve powered up too, so I think I can probably go alone.”
Is he expecting Goku to have stayed the same after all this time though?
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:54 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:23 pm Is he expecting Goku to have stayed the same after all this time though?
Narratively wise, I don't think it matters.
It's about scale Freeza> SSJ Goku>SSJ Trunks> Androids. Adding a couple million to this doesn't do anything.
Toriyama has no interest in Freeza being better, he's just a tool to hype up everybody else.

If we want to be concrete in-universe, I find it more likely that Freeza is in denial about the whole situation than offering any planning to his revenge plan.
His father is the back up in case Goku has gotten stronger.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:04 pm

LightBing wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:54 am
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:23 pm Is he expecting Goku to have stayed the same after all this time though?
Narratively wise, I don't think it matters.
It's about scale Freeza> SSJ Goku>SSJ Trunks> Androids. Adding a couple million to this doesn't do anything.
Toriyama has no interest in Freeza being better, he's just a tool to hype up everybody else.

If we want to be concrete in-universe, I find it more likely that Freeza is in denial about the whole situation than offering any planning to his revenge plan.
His father is the back up in case Goku has gotten stronger.
I think you got your less than/greater than signs mixed up.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:46 am

LightBing wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 6:54 am
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:23 pm Is he expecting Goku to have stayed the same after all this time though?
Narratively wise, I don't think it matters.
It's about scale Freeza> SSJ Goku>SSJ Trunks> Androids. Adding a couple million to this doesn't do anything.
Toriyama has no interest in Freeza being better, he's just a tool to hype up everybody else.

If we want to be concrete in-universe, I find it more likely that Freeza is in denial about the whole situation than offering any planning to his revenge plan.
His father is the back up in case Goku has gotten stronger.
You mean Androids > Trunks > Goku > Freeza?
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Thu Oct 28, 2021 2:32 pm

DanielSSJ wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 9:04 pm I think you got your less than/greater than signs mixed up.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:46 am You mean Androids > Trunks > Goku > Freeza?
Made a mistake it's the other way around.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:06 am

So, what do we make of Z Veku? the failed Gogeta.

I know, it's a gag, yeah, it's suppose to be just luck and Janemba never used his magic, but in-universe he still lasted half an hour with Janemba, running around, luckily dodging, etc. And we know how long a minute can be in the DBverse.

Is he still somewhat strong, even though he can't fight Janmeba? he must have some speed in order for Janemba to not be able to get ahold of him for 30 minutes.

So, could he be a "decent" Goku-Vegeta merger, only really fat and below Janemba in many regards? like a Gogeta if he never trained, ate at McDonald's every single day, no SS forms, and had no martial arts abilities? he is still made of Goku and Vegeta, so could he fight Namek Freeza? Perfect Cell?? or someone like Nappa could beat him up? because if Janemba couldn't tag him, could Dabura do it?
Or was he weaker than base Goku?

I know it's a gag character, just wondering.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:10 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:06 am So, what do we make of Z Veku? the failed Gogeta.

I know, it's a gag, yeah, it's suppose to be just luck and Janemba never used his magic, but in-universe he still lasted half an hour with Janemba, running around, luckily dodging, etc. And we know how long a minute can be in the DBverse.

Is he still somewhat strong, even though he can't fight Janmeba? he must have some speed in order for Janemba to not be able to get ahold of him for 30 minutes.

So, could he be a "decent" Goku-Vegeta merger, only really fat and below Janemba in many regards? like a Gogeta if he never trained, ate at McDonald's every single day, no SS forms, and had no martial arts abilities? he is still made of Goku and Vegeta, so could he fight Namek Freeza? Perfect Cell?? or someone like Nappa could beat him up? because if Janemba couldn't tag him, could Dabura do it?
Or was he weaker than base Goku?

I know it's a gag character, just wondering.
My theory is that he still gained durability but slumped in the others stats, if memory serves me he still took a bit of a beating.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:53 pm

LightBing wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:10 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:06 am So, what do we make of Z Veku? the failed Gogeta.

I know, it's a gag, yeah, it's suppose to be just luck and Janemba never used his magic, but in-universe he still lasted half an hour with Janemba, running around, luckily dodging, etc. And we know how long a minute can be in the DBverse.

Is he still somewhat strong, even though he can't fight Janmeba? he must have some speed in order for Janemba to not be able to get ahold of him for 30 minutes.

So, could he be a "decent" Goku-Vegeta merger, only really fat and below Janemba in many regards? like a Gogeta if he never trained, ate at McDonald's every single day, no SS forms, and had no martial arts abilities? he is still made of Goku and Vegeta, so could he fight Namek Freeza? Perfect Cell?? or someone like Nappa could beat him up? because if Janemba couldn't tag him, could Dabura do it?
Or was he weaker than base Goku?

I know it's a gag character, just wondering.
My theory is that he still gained durability but slumped in the others stats, if memory serves me he still took a bit of a beating.
Yeah, he did. I don't want to forget it's a gag character, but the beating he took did not defuse him, while Gotenks got immediately defused against Hirudegan in the following movie. Implying that, at least for Toei, you can get defused if hit strongly enough.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sat Oct 30, 2021 11:58 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:06 am So, what do we make of Z Veku? the failed Gogeta.

I know, it's a gag, yeah, it's suppose to be just luck and Janemba never used his magic, but in-universe he still lasted half an hour with Janemba, running around, luckily dodging, etc. And we know how long a minute can be in the DBverse.

Is he still somewhat strong, even though he can't fight Janmeba? he must have some speed in order for Janemba to not be able to get ahold of him for 30 minutes.

So, could he be a "decent" Goku-Vegeta merger, only really fat and below Janemba in many regards? like a Gogeta if he never trained, ate at McDonald's every single day, no SS forms, and had no martial arts abilities? he is still made of Goku and Vegeta, so could he fight Namek Freeza? Perfect Cell?? or someone like Nappa could beat him up? because if Janemba couldn't tag him, could Dabura do it?
Or was he weaker than base Goku?

I know it's a gag character, just wondering.
I remember from Gotenks that his fat form got some hype and people didn't notice he was a fluke until he started running. So I think the fat fusion is at least stronger than base fusers and the skinny fusion.

Since I take Gotenks' surviving against Majin Boo as evidence for him being above SSJ2 tier, I guess it goes the same would apply to Veku. He's probably not quite SSJ3 level since he's still a failed fusion. Maybe Veku vs Fat Boo would be interesting.
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