Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Sun May 30, 2021 11:23 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 9:14 pmSSJG Goku: 1
This is the base for the whole list. In his fight with Beerus, Goku is shown to absorb this power into his SSJ form and then even his base form by the end of the fight, as he pushes Beerus' "full power" attack.

FnF
Goku: 1.2
~ SSJ: 60
~ SSJ2: 120
~ SSJ3 (Goku only): 480
~ SSJG: 2,400
~ SSJB: 6,000
Including all the forms here to give a notion of the multipliers. SSJ1-3 are same as usual, God is 5x 3 and Blue is 2.5x God. Thanks to Whis' training, Goku and Vegeta are now stronger than ever. Kuririn even suggests Goku and Freeza are the strongest guys he ever sensed.
This isn't a criticism of your list, but I just have to say that I hate the idea that Goku can still go Super Saiyan God after absorbing its power into his base form. Like, how does that make any sense whatsoever?
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Fri Jun 04, 2021 12:13 pm

DanielSSJ wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 11:23 pm
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 9:14 pmSSJG Goku: 1
This is the base for the whole list. In his fight with Beerus, Goku is shown to absorb this power into his SSJ form and then even his base form by the end of the fight, as he pushes Beerus' "full power" attack.

FnF
Goku: 1.2
~ SSJ: 60
~ SSJ2: 120
~ SSJ3 (Goku only): 480
~ SSJG: 2,400
~ SSJB: 6,000
Including all the forms here to give a notion of the multipliers. SSJ1-3 are same as usual, God is 5x 3 and Blue is 2.5x God. Thanks to Whis' training, Goku and Vegeta are now stronger than ever. Kuririn even suggests Goku and Freeza are the strongest guys he ever sensed.
This isn't a criticism of your list, but I just have to say that I hate the idea that Goku can still go Super Saiyan God after absorbing its power into his base form. Like, how does that make any sense whatsoever?
It really doesn't make any sense. SSJB is SSJG + SSJ, and Goku already absorbed SSJG into his normal power... so he should only be capable of going SSJB now.

You know, I once tried working with this theory that whenever Goku used golden SSJ, he was suppressed to a level below SSJG, as a way to not use God Ki. And whenever he powered up past SSJG level, he was using Blue. It didn't really work because Goku apparently suppressed his SSJB power to mortal levels all the time in the ToP (Vs Kuririn, vs Kale)
Noah wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 11:40 pm Did he said that on the movie? Also I don't think the statement of Jiren being stronger than all GoDs is true, maybe the vast majority... but remember no one else had ever seen the full extend of Beerus power, so I believe he's not stronger than him.
Yeah. Goku says Broly is the strongest guy he ever fought, probably even stronger than Beerus. Jiren is for sure stronger than Belmond, who has beat Beerus in arm wrestling. Unlike in the manga with Quitela Beerus doesn't try to downplay that and is instead ashamed, so Belmond is probably indeed Beerus' superior.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Jun 04, 2021 12:23 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 12:13 pm Yeah. Goku says Broly is the strongest guy he ever fought, probably even stronger than Beerus. Jiren is for sure stronger than Belmond, who has beat Beerus in arm wrestling. Unlike in the manga with Quitela Beerus doesn't try to downplay that and is instead ashamed, so Belmond is probably indeed Beerus' superior.
Sorry, no, this isn't accurate. Goku in DBS never made that kind of claim, the first time was when he said that about Moro. But in the movie, he only said he was so sure about his strenght until Broly came along, that he was really strong and that he probably was stronger than Beerus, but he never said he was the strongest he's ever fought.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Super Murjin » Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:09 pm

Thoughts?


DRAGON BALL POWER LEVELS


Zeno, Future Zeno, Zalama

?
Grand Priest

?
Zeno’s Attendants

15
Whis, Vados, Cognac, Awamo, Marcarita, Mojito, Cus, Cukatail, Korn, Martinu, Campari, Sour

14

13
Merus

12

11

10
Beerus, Champa, Sidra, Iwen, Helles, Mosco, Quitela, Arak, Liquir, Rumsshi, Gene, Belmond
Goku UI
Moro (Seven-Three/Merus absorbed), Moro (Seven-Three/Merus/Earth absorbed)
Vegetto SSB, Gogeta SSB
Jiren (Full Power)
Broly SSJFP

09
Goku UIO
Jiren
Moro (Full Power), Moro (Seven-Three absorbed)
Broly SSJ
Vegeta SSBE (Spirit Control)

08
Vegeta SSBE

07
Goku SSB, Vegeta SSB
Goku Black SSR
Merged Zamasu
Broly (Wrath State 2nd form)
Golden Frieza
Goku SSJ (Aura of a God), Toppo (Aura of a God)
Granolah (Greatest Warrior)

06
Goku SSG, Vegeta SSG, Yamoshi SSG
Goku Black SSJ (powering up)
Mr. Buu (after unlocking Dai Kaioshin's power)
Hit, Saganbo (w/ Moro's full magic boost), Moro (magic restored), Broly (Wrath State)

05

04
Goku (Aura of a God), Vegeta (Aura of a God), Goku Black (Aura of a God)
Kefla SSJFP
Vegetto SSJ, Gogeta SSJ
Frieza (after training)
Super Buu (Ultimate Gohan absorbed), Super Buu (Gotenks SSJ3 absorbed)
Ultimate Gohan (after training), Toppo

03
Goku SSJ3, Vegeta SSJ2 (rage), Future Trunks SSJ2 (rage), Gotenks SSJ3
Kale SSJFP
Vegetto, Gogeta, Kefla, Ultimate Gohan
Majin Buu, Super Buu, Super Buu (Piccolo absorbed), Mr. Buu
Anilaza, Dai Kaioshin, Saganbo (w/ Moro's magic boost), Uub (full power), Android 17 (after training), Dyspo

02
Goku SSJ2, Vegeta SSJ2, Gohan SSJ2
Super Perfect Cell, Dabura, Zamasu

01
Goku SSJ, Vegeta SSJ, Gohan SSJ, Future Trunks SSJ, Goten SSJ, Trunks SSJ, Cabba SSJ, Kale SSJ, Caulifla SSJ, Yamoshi SSJ, Gotenks SSJ, Future Gohan, Goku Black SSJ
King Cold, Frieza, Frost, Shisami (after training), Aka
Vuon, Kahseral, Tupper, Zoiray, Kettol, Kunshi, Cocette
Perfect Cell, Android 16, Android 17, Android 18, Android 19, Android 20, Cell Jr
Shin, Kibito, Anato, Pell, Eyre, Kuru, Ogma, Fuwa, Fuwa’s Attendant, Iru, Roh, Gowasu, Khai, Agu, South Kaioshin, Elder Kaioshin
Piccolo (fused w/ Nail+Kami), Magetta, Pui Pui, Yakon, Ribrianne, Kakunsa, Rozie, Basil, Lavender, Bergamo, Rozel, Hyssop, Chappil, Comfrey, Obuni, Napapa, Mulithim, Damon, Gamisaras, Majora, Ganos, Shimorekka, Seven-Three, Yunba, Bikkura Quoitur, Zauyogi, Yuzun, Elec, Gas, Oil, Macki, Miza-Iwaza-Kikaza (Fusion), Majin Spopovich, Majin Yamu

00
Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Future Trunks, Goten, Trunks, Future Gohan, Nappa, Raditz, Tarble, Bardock, Cabba, Kale, Caulifla, King Vegeta, Paragus, King Sadala, Yamoshi, Beets, Gine, Taro, Broly, Leek, Pan, King Vegeta's Majordomo, Moroko, Nion, Shito
Krillin, Tenshinhan, Chaozu, Master Roshi, Yamcha, Grandpa Gohan, Uub, Fangs, Bandages, Akkuman, Invisible Man, Giran, Nam, Ranfan, Bacterian, Launch, King Chappa, Man-Wolf, Pamput, Spopovich, Yamu, Videl, Mr. Satan, Captain Chicken, Nok, Otokosuki, Nareg, Yamcha (Reincarnated), Chaozu (Oushou)
Captain Ginyu, Barta, Jeice, Guldo, Recoome, Zarbon, Dodoria, Appule, Kui, Saibaman, Sorbet, Tagoma, Shisami, Cranberry, Lemo, Cheelai, Berryblue, Kikono, Avo, Cado, Garana, Daigen, Chidoru
King Piccolo, Piccolo, Drum, Tamborine, Cymbal, Piano, Nail, Pirina, Saonel, Dende, Monaito
Commander Red, General Blue, Buyon, Tao Pai Pai, Advisor Black, Android 8, General White, Sergeant Metallic, Sergeant-Major Purple, Colonel Silver, Colonel Violet,
Galactic King, Jaco, Irico, Calamis
Botamo, Dr. Rota, Vikal, Zarbuto, Rabanra, Jimeze, Zirloin, Prum, Hermila, The Preecho, Narirama, Maji Kayo, Katopesla, Bollarator, Koitsukai, Viara, Panchia, Paparoni, Nigrissi, Oregano, Sorrel, Hopp, Zium, Jilcol, Rubalt, Methiop, Murisarm, Jirasen, Lilibeu, Shantza, Nink, Monna, Shosa, Dercori, Caway, Ba, Miza, Iwaza, Kikaza, Soshiru, Pybara, Hatska, Goku Black, Granolah
Last edited by Super Murjin on Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:21 pm

Super Murjin wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:09 pm Thoughts?



Beerus, Champa, Sidra, Iwen, Helles, Mosco, Quitela, Arak, Liquir, Rumsshi, Gene, Belmond
Goku UI
Moro (Seven-Three/Merus absorbed), Moro (Seven-Three/Merus/Earth absorbed)
Vegetto SSB, Gogeta SSB
Jiren (Full Power)
Broly SSJFP

09
Goku UIO
Jiren
Moro (Full Power), Moro (Seven-Three absorbed)
Broly SSJ

08
Vegeta SSBE

Yeah, Moro FP and Moro 7-3 are stronger than Sign Goku. You have both Moro iterations below him. Also, Moro7-3 was stated to be the toughest ever met by Goku, he should be above everybody except Gogeta Blue.

Also, SSBE Vegeta was implied to be stronger than Sign Goku, so at the very least they should be equals.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Super Murjin » Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:27 pm

I have categorized characters within a tier ,however, within the "tier" of power, i haven't listed them from strongest to weakest.

Especially when you look at the lower tiers like "0" and "1" .... that would be so much work and super hard to know for sure who is stronger than who with the limited information we have.

I think i forgot that Vegeta's SSBE was in the same realm as Goku UI Sign.

I will update that.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:52 pm

Super Murjin wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:27 pm I have categorized characters within a tier ,however, within the "tier" of power, i haven't listed them from strongest to weakest.

Especially when you look at the lower tiers like "0" and "1" .... that would be so much work and super hard to know for sure who is stronger than who with the limited information we have.

I think i forgot that Vegeta's SSBE was in the same realm as Goku UI Sign.

I will update that.
Oh, sure, I meant Moro is listed on a tier below, there's weaker people than him on a higher tier.

I would put:

UI Goku, UI Moro73 and Earth Moro on one tier
Blue fusion and Moro7-3 on another tier
and FP Moro, Broly and Jiren on a third tier.

And Granola, current Goku and Vegeta on a higher tier than all of the above. And Beerus, apparently, above them.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:30 pm

Why is Merged Zamasu weaker than Black?

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Jun 12, 2021 10:53 am

How strong was Yamcha during the Saiyan arc?

1700?
1500?

He was strong enough to take down a sabaiman, also he thought he could take all remaining 4 of them. But not as strong to kill the saibaiman, also not strong enough to break free from an injured sabaiman's grip.

So, equally strong to a sabaiman? Slightly stronger? Weaker but a better fighter/smarter?

Weaker than Krilin, right?

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:28 am

Koitsukai wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 10:53 am How strong was Yamcha during the Saiyan arc?

1700?
1500?

He was strong enough to take down a sabaiman, also he thought he could take all remaining 4 of them. But not as strong to kill the saibaiman, also not strong enough to break free from an injured sabaiman's grip.

So, equally strong to a sabaiman? Slightly stronger? Weaker but a better fighter/smarter?

Weaker than Krilin, right?
Official power levels have the humans at these levels:

Tenshinhan: 1,830
Krillin: 1,770
Yamcha: 1,480
Yajirobe: 970
Chaoz: 610

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:02 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 10:53 am How strong was Yamcha during the Saiyan arc?

1700?
1500?

He was strong enough to take down a sabaiman, also he thought he could take all remaining 4 of them. But not as strong to kill the saibaiman, also not strong enough to break free from an injured sabaiman's grip.

So, equally strong to a sabaiman? Slightly stronger? Weaker but a better fighter/smarter?

Weaker than Krilin, right?
Weekly Jump/Daizenshuu 7's 1,480 for Yamcha seems about right. He probably didn't go all out on that Saibaman because it was his first fight and he had to conserve stamina, so the fight seemed much closer than it should. Raditz couldn't escape a injured Goku's grip either, grips are just fairly tough by DB standards.

Official sources aside, lowest I'd put him is the 1,300 range. He should be capable of beating a Saibaman pretty handly. He mostly likely wanted to fight each Saibaman 1 on 1 rather than all at once. Don't think even Piccolo could take them all lol.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:30 pm

Power Levels: A Modest Proposal

So, I finally decided to dip my toe in this big old topic. I’ve been thinking for some time about Power Levels, particularly in relation to the pre-Raditz period of Dragon Ball, with a view to trying to reconcile the appearance of seemingly vast leaps in power as presented in the story with the relatively small Battle Power (Scouter) numbers that this period has at its disposal according to the official numbers.

I also wanted to do justice to the notion (prevalent in this period, but also in evidence later on – more often than I usually see acknowledged by Power Level discussion, arguably) that the way in which power is used is as important as, if not more important than, the Battle Power numbers per se. We’ve seen reference to the idea that ki is more than raw power in both the source material and in interviews, and I wanted to experiment and see whether there might be a way of representing these ideas together in a single, broadly consistent fashion.

So here are the things I wanted to try to put together:
  • A reasonably consistent set of Battle Power values that align with the established Battle Power Scouter numbers from around the Battle with Raditz (and also, wherever possible, with other official numbers that exist for this earlier period), while still respecting the power gains as presented in the story, and
  • A means of depicting Battle Powers that gives due weight and consideration to what might be called the ‘underpinnings’ of one’s ki – so, attributes such as ki control, consumption, 'reserves' (particularly when Battle Power-boosting techniques and transformations come into view), physical aspects of ki such as health and stamina, and the various ‘spiritual’ or 'emotional' elements that make up ki such as Genki, Yuuki, and Shouki, etc. – as a real dimension to one’s overall power, which also feeds into one’s Battle Power in a meaningful way, and which incorporates the idea that Earthlings are able, as we know, to use their ki in such a fashion that their Battle Powers are mutable according to the demands of a battle.
I thought back to the representation of the growth of Goku’s power throughout his time training in the series, published in the Super Exciting Guide as more like a shape with an area, with its overall size governed by different attributes, as opposed to simply a straightforward number, and this intrigued me. So I wanted to propose and experiment with something similar to this for Dragon Ball, as perhaps one way of looking beyond the difficulties that currently crop up when discussing Power Levels in the usual ‘bigger number-smaller number’ way. So this is my attempt at doing that; I hope it's interesting.

Representing Power as Area

"Battle Power", as such, is treated here as only one expression of one’s overall ki (namely, it is a representation of the attributes that emerge in battle – strength, speed, durability, destructive ability, etc.), which is enhanced by concentration of one’s latent overall ki. Having mentioned the idea of representing ki as a shape, and having an 'area' that represents the overall power available to a character through their ki, I would choose to visualise this as a circle or an ellipse, with one’s ki power governed along two axes, as in the diagram below:
The vertical axis may be taken as one’s Battle Power (with all the attributes that implies, as mentioned above); the horizontal axis may be taken as the elements foundational to one’s power (as mentioned above; so, things like ki control, or yuuki, or stamina, or what have you - for want of a better term, I call this axis "Capacity", and express it as a proportion of Battle Power, indicating how completely it is controlled and wielded). I would like to suggest that a martial artist is able to draw on the latent power represented on this horizontal axis and use it to ‘re-shape’ their ki, converting it from a sort of ‘resting equilibrium’ into a sort of ‘braced’ state with enhanced usable fighting power (and the enhanced fighting capabilities that come from this sort of battle-ready ‘bracing’), thus allowing the Battle Power represented on the vertical axis to rise (this is what 'concentration' looks like, according to this model). This is all the more true of the masters and natural adepts who populate Dragon Ball’s main cast, whose control over their ki is increasingly total, and who can therefore re-shape their ki and wield their power consciously, and more effectively, as more is demanded of them in combat.

And it is the Total Power that really counts, here - the whole of what is available to the character. Since these diagrams represent it as a circle or ellipse, the 'Total Power' is worked out in the way that one would work out the area of such a shape, given its dimensions; e.g., the circle is 100 BP wielded perfectly in an equilibrium state of rest, and so = (100/2)2 x pi, yielding a 'Total Power' of ~7854. The 'Total Power' value is thus an index drawn from the product of that power, as indicated from what I've suggested above. Moreover, the above diagram suggests that there are 3 broadly distinct 'states' to ki, which are as follows:
  • Resting: The state a Martial Artist has when at rest - represented here by a perfect circle. This is their 'walking-around' power, and is perfectly under control, but it’s very hard to actually fight with the ki shaped as it is in the ‘resting’ state, unless one finds one’s opponent to be utterly unchallenging (e.g., say, Jackie Chun vs. Man-Wolf), so at best one might play around with this state of ki.
  • Braced: The state a Martial Artist has when fighting seriously - they have re-shaped their ki in such a way that emphasises a more ‘battle-focused’ aspect, thus a higher Battle Power is represented (in the sense that a Scouter might pick up: In the diagram, the 'resting' state has a BP of a little over 130, whereas the 'braced' state is at 190). However, the area of both the circle and the ellipse is the same – the same ‘total power’ is being wielded here, but because the latter image has drawn on more of the latent ki of the individual, it is ‘stronger’. As one is effectively drawing on more effort, their own reserves, etc., the latent elements of one's ki are 'drawn in', and so the elliptical shape is generated. This is also the case for Earthlings with no ability to consciously control their ki (Gohan, for instance, cannot recognise Videl’s ki ‘at rest’, but is capable of identifying her ki apart from anyone else’s once she starts fighting, in DB #424 - this example, in and of itself, indicates that something about one’s ki changes once a character starts fighting with it).
  • Maximum: We also know that Dragon Ball's Martial Artists can actually make their ki bigger by 'exploding' their ki. Unlike the first two figures, which are simply re-shapings of an equivalent area, this last state is signified by actual area growth. It should be noted that, as the BP 'dimension' of the Martial Artist's ki surges upwards, the ki is also 'stretched' back out to complete the 'explosion', achieving the growth of power. Even so, the more characters push themselves to the limits of their ki (or else use techniques and transformations that maximise Battle Power at the expense of stability), the less they may be able to project the true capacity that the raw Battle Power numbers imply.
Technically, it's a little more 'graduated' than this - one might fight relatively unseriously in the gap between the 'resting' and 'braced' states, or may push one's power up higher than usual to meet the need, but not to their absolute maximum (or, of course, they could hold back even more than their 'resting' state) - but these are guides to the kind of thing I'm talking about. Thus, if you had a BP of 180 that is almost spherical facing off against an equivalent BP that is a thinner ellipse, the thinner ellipse is at a decisive disadvantage despite wielding an equivalent BP: they have less total power ‘behind’ this battle power (the area that signifies their total ki power is smaller), so it is less stable and effective than the raw numbers imply; the less like a circle the representation is, the more ‘effort’ is being expended, and the harder it is to wield the power with complete efficiency under strain – i.e., while one's Battle Power may be greater, the power projection does not track in a 1:1 ratio with the growth in Battle Power, as their 'Capacity' is being outstripped by their raw power, impacting upon the extent to which they can control and wield their BP. Diagramatically, the vertical axis would eventually rise beyond the ability of the horizontal axis to sustain it, which would lead to a drop in BP. And of course, this can happen without ‘pushing’ one’s Battle Power: it can also happen by events inhibiting the elements that make up one’s 'capacity'. An example might be Goku’s heart disease inhibiting (and eventually totally undermining) his power in his fight with Android #19, or Vegeta’s stamina progressively giving out in the fight with Android #18 (or likewise Freeza against SSj Goku, leading eventually to a drop in actual BP, etc.). One might also contend that Kiwi or Dodoria’s yuuki collapsing in the final moments of their lives might have made them easier for Vegeta to kill. Diagrammatically, the horizontal axis would contract until it could no longer support the vertical axis, leading to a drop in BP.

So, by this schema, it is entirely possible for characters with superficially close BP to actually be surprisingly far apart in terms of total wielded power, or vice-versa: basically, the 'argument' being made in the list below is that the numbers read by Scouters only tell part of a larger truth, which ki-sensing characters have a better grasp of - but then, that's what we have been told many times by the story itself, anyway; the only innovation here is to say, "...and it might look a little bit like this". So, that's the theory behind this sort of unusual presentation of Power Levels - now to put it into practice. As with any other list, suggestions and comments are welcome, but I hope this different way of looking at how to represent power in DB is interesting and enjoyable. I've tried to apply this from DB #1-209 (So, the Beginning through to the Raditz fight), and I've added additional explanatory comments with each diagram, explaining the choices I've made - you can also click on the diagrams for larger, more legible versions.

Each character represented has a diagram, with:
  • number values on the BP axis (this is what a Scouter would read), at each of the 3 'levels' outlined above (Manga-derived figures are Blue, Daizenshuu Beige, Jump Red, and Movie Pamphlets Pink);
  • a capacity rating (expressed as a % of their BP, thus indicating how well-controlled etc. their power is at each level);
  • and a calculation of the total area represented by the shape made by these two axes - showing how powerful the character in question really is (this is what would be sensed, albeit indistinctly). So, the true power differentials really come more into play here, and not so much in Battle Powers alone (though they aren't irrelevant, and they're usually linked, unsurprisingly).
Needless to say, judicious rounding of numbers has been employed throughout (though decimal increments have been retained at some points, particularly at lower levels, where I thought rounding the BPs in particular might be misleading).

Okay, here goes nothing:

DB #1-31 (Dragon Ball Hunt)
Comments
DB #32-54 (21st Tenkaichi Budokai)
Comments
DB #55-83 (Red Ribbon arc - Muscle Tower and Pirate Cove)
Comments
DB #84-97 (Red Ribbon arc - Karin Sanctuary)
Comments
DB #98-112 (Uranai Baba's Minions)
Comments
DB #113-134 (22nd Tenkaichi Budokai)
Comments
DB #135-146 (Piccolo Daimao arc - Re-emergence of the Demon King)
Comments
DB #147-165 (Piccolo Daimao arc - Rejuvenation of the Demon King, Final Battle, and Meeting Kami-Sama)
Comments
DB #166-194 (23rd Tenkaichi Budokai)
Comments
DB #195-209 (Saiyan arc - Arrival of Raditz)
Comments
That's all I've got, so far. It might be interesting to continue on through the Saiyan and Freeza arcs, to see whether this model can basically fit the more thoroughgoing consistency requirements of multiple BP statements. But I can see a few obvious things going forward:
  • Goku's Kaio-Ken 'Total Power' would be up near Vegeta in BP (and beyond, in Kaio-Ken x3), but factoring in the 'Capacity' dimension would change the picture - Kaio-Ken x2 would be rather further off Vegeta's total power than it is to his BP (if for no other reason than because you can quite easily magnify advantages using this model), and Kaio-Ken x3 would be much closer than his BP indicates (as would befit an improperly-wielded technique).
  • You'd be able to represent Kiwi, Dodoria, and Zarbon's Capacity and yuuki problems pretty straightforwardly here (thinner ellipses), making clear the kind of 'Total Power' difference they suffer when going up against Vegeta (again, allowing the differences to be magnified well beyond their BP, as rusty fighters who have spent too much time "comfortable" with Freeza).
  • Looking further on into the Cell arc, you could posit the difference between Trunks's SSjIII form and Goku's SSjIV, as the difference between an extremely tall but thin ellipse (maximising BP at the expense of wielded power) against basically a huge circle (perhaps a lower BP, but much more Total Power, immeasurably better-wielded). You could do similar things for Gohan between the Cell and Buu arcs - the Daizenshuu indicate his BP hasn't changed, but also that he's much weaker, particularly in SSj2. You could represent this rather easily by this model, moving from Gohan's raging SSj2 (again, pretty much a circle) to his weaker power as a teen (an equally tall, but rather thinner, ellipse).
  • Additionally in the Buu arc, you could answer the puzzle of Spopovitch and Yamu with reference to the Capacity dimension in this model - they aren't strong in BP terms (Videl can break Spopovitch's neck), but as Goku notes, they're stronger than their own power: this would be represented as a rare instance of a wide ellipse, thanks to Babidi's charm drawing their power 'out of shape' so that they are unnaturally stronger than they otherwise would be.
Well. I hope that this approach has at least been an interesting and creative way of looking at the matter - I looked through the topic to see whether this approach had been pursued before, and the nearest things I could see were a couple of DBGTFO's approaches (around page 50, there was some sort of diagram/graph approach, but the images haven't survived; later, they also tried a representation of power levels that incorporated values for multiple attributes) and the occasional approach that tried to approach early DB power differences from a narrative perspective, without reference to Scouter BPs (a couple of people did this, but most notably DBZAOTA482, from what I remember), so hopefully this seems like a fresh approach. Like I say, I believe it has some potential advantages over the typical way of looking at power levels. But I'd welcome any comments and suggestions!

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:18 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:30 pm Power Levels: A Modest Proposal
This is really good. I still haven't read it all yet, but I'll definitely do it when I have the chance. I managed to read your take on the Budokais, mostly the 23rd.

One thing I do believe is that Yamcha is definitely stronger than Cyborg Tao. The reason being that Tao was totally unable to follow Tien's movements, while Yamcha and Krillin could easily do it when watching not just that fight, but also Tien's fight against Weighted Goku, when Tien obviously used more effort than against Tao. It wasn't until Tien used his full speed against Weighted Goku that Yamcha (and Krillin as well) was completely unable to see Tien's movements. But he and Krillin were capable of seeing him before that.

Yamcha was also able to impress Kami a bit, mostly with his Sokidan, but that technique was able to inflict a bit of damage on Kami, something even Post King Piccolo Battle Kid Goku could not do.

It's also clear that Tien in the 23rd Budokai should be stronger than King Piccolo, given that Weighted Goku's speed was stated to be the same as during his battle with King Piccolo, and Tien easily outclassed him until Goku removed his weights.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:02 pm

dragonball0900 wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:18 pmThis is really good. I still haven't read it all yet, but I'll definitely do it when I have the chance. I managed to read your take on the Budokais, mostly the 23rd.
Thanks so much for the feedback, and the kind words! I appreciate it a lot.
dragonball0900 wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:18 pmOne thing I do believe is that Yamcha is definitely stronger than Cyborg Tao. The reason being that Tao was totally unable to follow Tien's movements, while Yamcha and Krillin could easily do it when watching not just that fight, but also Tien's fight against Weighted Goku, when Tien obviously used more effort than against Tao.
That's a good point. I agree. I wanted to revisit Tao anyway, so this is a good opportunity. I suppose a cyborg's power could be freely controlled, but locked at the exact 'capacity' they had when they were converted (unless the conversion gives them a totally different suite of abilities, like for #17 and #18, who would otherwise have been totally ordinary Humans). Reckoning it that way would put Tao at a rectangle of up to 210 (BP) x 54 (His old Max Capacity expressed as value) = 11340 (Total Power). That's more than 4 times his original Total Power (So works for 'many times stronger', well enough), and is below Yamcha's lowest Total Power as well, so that could work.
dragonball0900 wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 9:18 pmIt's also clear that Tien in the 23rd Budokai should be stronger than King Piccolo, given that Weighted Goku's speed was stated to be the same as during his battle with King Piccolo, and Tien easily outclassed him until Goku removed his weights.
However, for this, I think I disagree. Tenshinhan's description of Goku's old power as 'perfect' seems to indicate to me that this level is still beyond him, so I read his contradistinction with Goku's speed to mean that Tenshinhan has specifically trained his speed to exploit what he (wrongly) perceives as a limitation for Goku in order to earn the win by this alternative route. So I don't think he needs to be stronger than the Piccolo Daimao level, so long as that's the general way it's understood (I think ZombieVito, for instance, construes this similarly).

I've put his maximum above Goku's weighted braced level, more to explain why Goku doesn't steamroller him in any case despite his superior Total Power. But I guess I could take another look at Tenshinhan, and move him out ahead a little further of the other Humans - he's pegged as 250 to Kuririn's 206 (proportionately speaking), but Official BP numbers kind of show a progressive narrowing of the gap between Tenshinhan and Kuririn up to the end of the Saiyan arc, so I guess they could stand a little further apart at this stage.

Since I'm already posting, I'll just put a couple of clarifications/corrections for things I said in my original post that are bugging me:

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by belland » Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:27 am

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:30 pm Power Levels: A Modest Proposal

<Snip>
Certainly an accurate job! I love how you handled the bp of the characters. I really hope that you will continue to analyze the subsequent sagas with such care! Sorry for my bad english but I'm italian. Truly great job!

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:39 am

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 5:02 pm However, for this, I think I disagree. Tenshinhan's description of Goku's old power as 'perfect' seems to indicate to me that this level is still beyond him, so I read his contradistinction with Goku's speed to mean that Tenshinhan has specifically trained his speed to exploit what he (wrongly) perceives as a limitation for Goku in order to earn the win by this alternative route. So I don't think he needs to be stronger than the Piccolo Daimao level, so long as that's the general way it's understood (I think ZombieVito, for instance, construes this similarly).

I've put his maximum above Goku's weighted braced level, more to explain why Goku doesn't steamroller him in any case despite his superior Total Power. But I guess I could take another look at Tenshinhan, and move him out ahead a little further of the other Humans - he's pegged as 250 to Kuririn's 206 (proportionately speaking), but Official BP numbers kind of show a progressive narrowing of the gap between Tenshinhan and Kuririn up to the end of the Saiyan arc, so I guess they could stand a little further apart at this stage.
I guess that's a good way to think of it. Though 23rd Budokai Tien should be able to defeat someone like King Piccolo easily. He was already beating around a "so far above Kid Goku level" Weighted Goku (who is stated to have the same speed as Kid Goku), so I do believe King Piccolo and Kid Goku have no chance against this Tien.

Tien is also very confident in defeating a Goku that he knew had been training with Kami so narrative wise, he should be able to defeat King Piccolo and Kid Goku, and I'm not sure if he even had Goku's speed in mind since before (I see no reason why Tien would even think about Goku's speed specifically way long before the tournament). That to me seemed like something that Tien just managed to figure out while battling Goku.

I also have this notion that Piccolo against Krillin, initially, was using his previous "King Piccolo level", because later on after a while fighting, Piccolo went on saying he would be using "the true power of the great Ma Junior", which to me seems that before that he was only using the level he used to have as King Piccolo, and was going to use power above that, to show some of his improvement after 3 years. In the first portion of the fight, Krillin was holding his own against Piccolo, but was still clearly below him, and was going to be eliminated if it wasn't for the flying technique he had just learned during his training. 23rd Krillin is obviously below King Piccolo based on this logic (plus the fight between Weighted Goku and Tien, when Krillin and Yamcha said Weighted Goku's speed was not normal, which means the two were still below Kid Goku and King Piccolo, but that's something we can obviously agree). Since Tien is clearly far stronger than Krillin, I think the big gap between them would be enough for Tien to surpass beings like King Piccolo or Kid Goku.

Then again, I guess the story can be interpreted in different ways.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:38 pm

belland wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:27 amCertainly an accurate job! I love how you handled the bp of the characters. I really hope that you will continue to analyze the subsequent sagas with such care! Sorry for my bad english but I'm italian. Truly great job!
Thanks for the kind words! Very much appreciated. I am doing some rough calculations for the Saiyan and Freeza arcs at the moment, so I'm hopeful at being able to put something up in the fullness of time. It might be a while, though.
dragonball0900 wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:39 amTien is also very confident in defeating a Goku that he knew had been training with Kami so narrative wise, he should be able to defeat King Piccolo and Kid Goku, and I'm not sure if he even had Goku's speed in mind since before (I see no reason why Tien would even think about Goku's speed specifically way long before the tournament). That to me seemed like something that Tien just managed to figure out while battling Goku.
Thanks for your reply, and your insights! Admittedly this is speculation based on Tenshinhan's wording, but we've seen his kind of thinking when he knows he's outclassed from later on in the series, when he goes to train under Kaio (DB #261): namely, although he can't hope to surpass Goku's power by doing the same things, he aims to focus on a couple of things which adds enough twists to give him the advantage again. That fits quite well, to me, with Tenshinhan as he is following the Daimao fight (he trains hard, and goes to see Karin, but Goku has already done those things and has come out with a power that is "all but perfect"). And Ten knows the next context where he might face Goku is in the Budokai (DB #165), where there are other ways to win than being simply more powerful (such as a Ring-Out, which he almost achieves in DB #177), which makes it quite unlike a Goku-Daimao death-match sort of context.

In this case, then, one might speculatively read Tenshinhan's Budokai strategy as:
  • Out-speed Goku to get the win, most probably by Ring-Out, or else by wearing him down with rapid attacks that he can't deal with or dodge (hence the speed training specifically - it's also worth noting that Goku only really compliments Tenshinhan's speed - "I knew you were amazing! I didn't think you'd get this fast!" - so reading it as out of proportion with his power as such seems a viable reading);
  • If Goku can't be straightforwardly out-sped, then devise an attack that can't be dodged no matter how quick he is, and slowly whittle him down that way to get the win (hence the Shishin no Ken).
Those seem to me to track like the logical strategies of a person who knows he isn't able to compete on pure power terms, and is developing other contingencies to give him the victory (so, it lines up well with his thinking later in the series, which I mentioned earlier). But that's just my reading - as you say, there's certainly more than one viable way of reading the scene, and I am going to look again at probably bringing Yamcha up closer to Kuririn, and moving Tenshinhan further away from him. So thanks again for your insights!

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:54 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:30 pm Power Levels: A Modest Proposal
This is a really well thought out and interesting way of looking at things, and I might end up incorporating some aspects of this system into my own battle power lists (the idea of using Goku and Piccolo's 300~400-ish numbers as "at rest" battle powers to make more room in the pre-Raditz section is definitely a keeper).

A question that I have is how would the Super Saiyan transformations work under this system? I'm guessing that each of the main forms (1-2-3) would feature an increase in total power in addition to battle power, but would reduce the user's capacity with each successive transformation. But would the Grade forms work like that as well, or would they work like Roshi's "amped" state wherein the total power doesn't change, it's just stretched out to increase BP at the cost of capacity?.
My Official Unofficial Battle Power list (in-progress: updated 11/8/2022—FREEZA ARC COMPLETED)

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Jack Bz » Mon Jun 28, 2021 10:13 pm

Really interesting read, Ponta. Don't have much to say but I definitely enjoyed just reading a full break down on the capacity of every minor character in DB as a fighter. Whenever I disagreed with a character's power compared to another, your explanation always countered exactly what I was thinking.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Tue Jun 29, 2021 5:53 pm

Thanks for the kind words, both! Very much appreciated.
DanielSSJ wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:54 pmA question that I have is how would the Super Saiyan transformations work under this system? I'm guessing that each of the main forms (1-2-3) would feature an increase in total power in addition to battle power, but would reduce the user's capacity with each successive transformation.
Broadly speaking, yes. I envisage BP getting multiplied by the official numbers as one might expect; the original SSj obviously features quite a marked Capacity reduction compared to one's Base Form - a great deal is made of the difficulty of accessing it at will in the early days, the extreme effort required to maintain it, the ferocity, instability, and lack of emotional control, etc., so it certainly makes sense that, until Goku and Gohan master it and essentially make it 'normal', it's a notable enough 'step down' in Capacity terms.

Beyond that, I think Capacity in the SSj forms, particularly the later forms, might almost be considered on a case-by-case basis. For instance, I think SSj2 Goku and Vegeta's Capacities are probably a little lower than their SSj Capacities (but really only because those have become basically normal to them; it's probably only a very small step down in Capacity), and Buu arc SSj2 Gohan's Capacity is no doubt significantly below theirs, as befits his rustiness, but Cell Games SSj2 Gohan is probably as right on 100% Capacity as one can get (tracking the unique characteristics of his rage) - in such an instance, the Capacity rating is less dependent on which transformation is being used, and more just on the person themselves. Similarly, I have a sneaking suspicion that Buu arc SSj3 Goku's Capacity when dead holds up considerably better than it does when he's alive - while I certainly wouldn't think of it as overturning the idea that there's an extra Capacity reduction from SSj2 to SSj3, I do think there's probably a significant Capacity rating difference there, even for the same transformation by the same character.

So it's subject to circumstances, and I haven't fully worked out all the 'ins and outs' of SSj as treated by this schema in my own mind yet (for instance, I'm also considering the possibility of what might be termed an 'access spend' - it 'costs' a certain amount of energy to activate a transformation in the first place, which may also have an impact on Capacity, or perhaps where the BP multiplier starts from?), but again I'd say it's broadly true that the BP steps hugely up (and the Total Power with it), and the Capacity steps progressively down.
DanielSSJ wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:54 pmBut would the Grade forms work like that as well, or would they work like Roshi's "amped" state wherein the total power doesn't change, it's just stretched out to increase BP at the cost of capacity?.
I think it would strictly speaking be the former, but in a way that looks increasingly like the latter: that is, it does stretch to increase BP at a very significant capacity cost, but the gains are so massive that the Total Power increase is also real, which is why Vegeta and Trunks see it as an acceptable trade-off. I get the impression that SSjII in particular is supposed to strike some sort of balance between a huge increase in BP and the ability to wield it broadly effectively, without quite going off the deep end like SSjIII does. And for SSjIII, we not only get the massive power boost from when Trunks activates it, but then he powers up again in what (I think) is the first definitive instance we see of an SSj form further altering its power post-transformation - and both of the Grade forms are presented as an overall increase in power from people able to sense it, like Piccolo. So they're both a 'Total Power' increase over bog-standard SSj.

But I think the real issue with the Grade Forms according to this schema is that, not whether there's a 'Total Power' or 'BP only' boost in play, but rather the increasing distortion of the shape of their power, which represents stuff like strain, energy consumption, inefficiency and poor power projection: the balance is so off even compared to standard SSj, with the result that the actual power projection of the forms is more inhibited than one might guess from the BP and Total Power boosts. So while it's a Total Power boost, it's still so distorted that it's showing itself to be a dead end, particularly compared to Goku and Gohan's later mastery of the form, which tracks in almost completely the opposite direction.

This is effectively thinking out loud with some stuff that needs a lot more thought when I get that far along (I won't even try to put numbers to it just yet), but in my mind's eye this is the sort of general way it looks. I hope it makes sense.

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