Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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Mad Swami
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Mad Swami » Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:53 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:33 pm
Mad Swami wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:35 am wow those numbers are low for the super anime then. At least given the popular consensus and my own opinion
What's the popular consensus for SSG or Blue?
I don't necessarily think there is like a popular number per se, but those numbers are used often for the manga which is wildly considered a much weaker cannon. People usually can't decide a number for the anime because they think it would be too big

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:58 am

Mad Swami wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:53 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:33 pm
Mad Swami wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:35 am wow those numbers are low for the super anime then. At least given the popular consensus and my own opinion
What's the popular consensus for SSG or Blue?
I don't necessarily think there is like a popular number per se, but those numbers are used often for the manga which is wildly considered a much weaker cannon. People usually can't decide a number for the anime because they think it would be too big
I don't really see why manga god should have a different multiplier.
Anime and manga have literally the same feat.

Manga is overall weaker than anime because manga base Goku is much weaker than anime goku , not because God has a weaker multiplier.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Mad Swami » Fri Apr 23, 2021 6:31 am

p-hyvo wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:58 am
Mad Swami wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:53 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:33 pm
What's the popular consensus for SSG or Blue?
I don't necessarily think there is like a popular number per se, but those numbers are used often for the manga which is wildly considered a much weaker cannon. People usually can't decide a number for the anime because they think it would be too big
I don't really see why manga god should have a different multiplier.
Anime and manga have literally the same feat.

Manga is overall weaker than anime because manga base Goku is much weaker than anime goku , not because God has a weaker multiplier.
I'm just stating that the weaker multiplier is a popular notion.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:05 am

But SSB in the manga is said to be 10x SSG and for the anime like SS: x50. Although, one could argue the x10 boost was for the initial incomplete SSB and that Perfect Blue is x50 like anime SSB.

SSG could be around 10x SS3, considering Vegeta's SS (or SS2, you can never know with Toei) surpasses SS3 Goku, and Broly should've gotten that kind of boost with his ikari form. Since BoG, the super saiyan multiplier for Vegeta is no longer set, for the movies and the manga at least.


SS3 Goku: 400
SS Vegeta: 400
Base Broly: 200
Base Broly (hint of ikari) 450
SSG: 4,000
Ikari Broly: 4,500

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:26 am

Mad Swami wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 6:31 am
p-hyvo wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:58 am
Mad Swami wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:53 pm

I don't necessarily think there is like a popular number per se, but those numbers are used often for the manga which is wildly considered a much weaker cannon. People usually can't decide a number for the anime because they think it would be too big
I don't really see why manga god should have a different multiplier.
Anime and manga have literally the same feat.

Manga is overall weaker than anime because manga base Goku is much weaker than anime goku , not because God has a weaker multiplier.
I'm just stating that the weaker multiplier is a popular notion.
If popular = wrong, then yes it's popular.

Even if I've never heard of it lmao

Popular between normal- non scalers db fans maybe

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Mad Swami » Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:33 am

p-hyvo wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:26 am
Mad Swami wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 6:31 am
p-hyvo wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:58 am

I don't really see why manga god should have a different multiplier.
Anime and manga have literally the same feat.

Manga is overall weaker than anime because manga base Goku is much weaker than anime goku , not because God has a weaker multiplier.
I'm just stating that the weaker multiplier is a popular notion.
If popular = wrong, then yes it's popular.

Even if I've never heard of it lmao

Popular between normal- non scalers db fans maybe
Not necessarily just popular equaling wrong, it's just a popular notion. Many people believe that the multipliers are much higher than that. And there is a lot of people who say that the two cannons have different multipliers. Again not fully saying I agree with any of it. Except I do think 1000 is incredibly low for God. Plus as pointed out above, manga states SSB=SSGx10 whereas anime says it's x50. Sooooo do with that what you will.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Sat Apr 24, 2021 6:01 am

Mad Swami wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:33 am
p-hyvo wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:26 am
Mad Swami wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 6:31 am
I'm just stating that the weaker multiplier is a popular notion.
If popular = wrong, then yes it's popular.

Even if I've never heard of it lmao

Popular between normal- non scalers db fans maybe
Not necessarily just popular equaling wrong, it's just a popular notion. Many people believe that the multipliers are much higher than that. And there is a lot of people who say that the two cannons have different multipliers. Again not fully saying I agree with any of it. Except I do think 1000 is incredibly low for God. Plus as pointed out above, manga states SSB=SSGx10 whereas anime says it's x50. Sooooo do with that what you will.
Sincerely, as long as both anime and manga have the same feat for god in battle of gods, there is no real logic reason to assume that there is a difference in the multiplier.

The important thing for god is that it must be>>peak vegito , because the dialogues implies that it is like that

Moreover, manga doesn't state that ssb = x10 god. It only tells us that 10% ssb<god, so the multiplier is low ( in my communities, I've always seen a general consensus about ssb being god x5 in the manga)

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Mad Swami » Sat Apr 24, 2021 6:42 am

p-hyvo wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 6:01 am
Mad Swami wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:33 am
p-hyvo wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:26 am

If popular = wrong, then yes it's popular.

Even if I've never heard of it lmao

Popular between normal- non scalers db fans maybe
Not necessarily just popular equaling wrong, it's just a popular notion. Many people believe that the multipliers are much higher than that. And there is a lot of people who say that the two cannons have different multipliers. Again not fully saying I agree with any of it. Except I do think 1000 is incredibly low for God. Plus as pointed out above, manga states SSB=SSGx10 whereas anime says it's x50. Sooooo do with that what you will.
Sincerely, as long as both anime and manga have the same feat for god in battle of gods, there is no real logic reason to assume that there is a difference in the multiplier.

The important thing for god is that it must be>>peak vegito , because the dialogues implies that it is like that

Moreover, manga doesn't state that ssb = x10 god. It only tells us that 10% ssb<god, so the multiplier is low ( in my communities, I've always seen a general consensus about ssb being god x5 in the manga)
Well, that's what I'm talking about, there is a consensus that the manga has weaker multipliers. Also sure there is no official statement that blue is 10xgod. However it cant be 50xgod like the anime implies. Also sure their feats are the same but the level of power to replicate such feats could be different. Lets not act like the two cannons aren't fastly different.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:19 pm

I really don't get why so many people think SSJB is 10x God in the manga based on the U6 Tournament when it actually implies Blue is barely 10x SSJ1. Hit's Timeskip can't affect people stronger than him, and when SSJ Goku manages to nullify it via skill their fight becomes pretty much even. They're all roughly in the same level.

As far as the gap between Blue and God goes, it seems like SSJBs can't even one shot SSJGs: Hit was still awake after being hit by Goku, and SSJR Goku Black could at least defend himself despite not being fast enough to hit SSJG Vegeta. I think it should only be 50x (or whatever SSJ boost you use in DBS) once it's perfected, as the version used prior to DBS was an incomplete state.

Worth pointing out SSJ multipliers are often dictated by dormant power, emotions and experience with the form (All fancy ways of saying plot), so don't get too hung up on stuff like SSJ3 Gotenks being 400x stronger than SSJ3 Goku or SSJ Goku Black being 50x SSJ2 Trunks but below SSJ2 Vegeta.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Apr 24, 2021 11:08 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:19 pm I really don't get why so many people think SSJB is 10x God in the manga based on the U6 Tournament when it actually implies Blue is barely 10x SSJ1. Hit's Timeskip can't affect people stronger than him, and when SSJ Goku manages to nullify it via skill their fight becomes pretty much even. They're all roughly in the same level.

As far as the gap between Blue and God goes, it seems like SSJBs can't even one shot SSJGs: Hit was still awake after being hit by Goku, and SSJR Goku Black could at least defend himself despite not being fast enough to hit SSJG Vegeta. I think it should only be 50x (or whatever SSJ boost you use in DBS) once it's perfected, as the version used prior to DBS was an incomplete state.

Worth pointing out SSJ multipliers are often dictated by dormant power, emotions and experience with the form (All fancy ways of saying plot), so don't get too hung up on stuff like SSJ3 Gotenks being 400x stronger than SSJ3 Goku or SSJ Goku Black being 50x SSJ2 Trunks but below SSJ2 Vegeta.
SSG Goku was noted by Whis to be stronger than the Vegeta who fought Hit (Vegeta was at 10% of SSB). To have things simple I put SSG at around 20% of SSB so that would make the multiplier from SSG to SSB to be 5 times. Since it's confirmed Fused Zamasu's fusion boost was big, I put the multiplier for CSSB at 10 times SSB. This makes the multiplier from SSG to CSSB to be 50 times, exactly as I have it on the anime.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:39 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:19 pm I really don't get why so many people think SSJB is 10x God in the manga based on the U6 Tournament when it actually implies Blue is barely 10x SSJ1. Hit's Timeskip can't affect people stronger than him, and when SSJ Goku manages to nullify it via skill their fight becomes pretty much even. They're all roughly in the same level.

As far as the gap between Blue and God goes, it seems like SSJBs can't even one shot SSJGs: Hit was still awake after being hit by Goku, and SSJR Goku Black could at least defend himself despite not being fast enough to hit SSJG Vegeta. I think it should only be 50x (or whatever SSJ boost you use in DBS) once it's perfected, as the version used prior to DBS was an incomplete state.

Worth pointing out SSJ multipliers are often dictated by dormant power, emotions and experience with the form (All fancy ways of saying plot), so don't get too hung up on stuff like SSJ3 Gotenks being 400x stronger than SSJ3 Goku or SSJ Goku Black being 50x SSJ2 Trunks but below SSJ2 Vegeta.
Just one detail. When Vegeta was fighting Black in God, he was using the God-Blue technique and was switching to Blue in order to move/block/attack. Only using God in the interim stages of the fight to coserver stamina and get the maximum out of normal Blue's Full Potential, which bursts upon transformation (Perfected Blue being this full potential in a constant). Vegeta obviously weaker than Goku in this arc. I don't recall any instance of pure God Vegeta fighting Rose Black, so I wanted to mention it.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:28 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:59 pm I don’t think it’s stated anywhere, but I don’t think Goku and Kuririn would’ve gone very far in the Budokai without Roshi’s training. That’s part of the reason they went after him in the first place…

Ranfan relied mostly on gimmicks, but she’s probably the weakest in this Budokai. Yamcha actually said Bacteria had fearsome strength though.
Neither went to Kame-sennin with the expectation of participating in TB. I'm pretty confident Kuririn would flop, even if he was stronger than some of the opposition due to his personality.
Goku, ignoring gimmicks I would put above Ranfan and Bacterian. Below Yamcha but with a good fighting chance since he's so tough and that matters more at this level.

It's really tricky to organize at this level.
Giran - Is able to hurt and clash with Goku; gives up after Goku destroy the arena wall.
Ranfan - Dodges an attack from Namu; defeated in one hit.
Bacterian - Is famous as stated by Yamcha; defeat in one hit plus a gag.
Yamcha - Brushed by a gust of wind; we know he was already pretty strong and expected to at least challenge Goku for the title.

The thing is pre-TB we have Chichi cleanly cutting dinosaurs heads while Yamcha 1 shots her. Yamcha throws Goku through a bunch of rocks, etc...
I think the basic martial artists aren't that special. Without the gimmicks we would saw the same thing as during the preliminares, Goku and Kuririn having a walk in the park.

From what we saw, I find no reason to believe Ranfan and Bacterian are more than slightly above the average martial artist.
To give a scale:
Normal Humans - 4-5
Average Martial artists - 5-6.5
Bacterian/Ranfan - 6.5 - 7

Note that at the "human level", KI quantity matters less in my opinion.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sun Apr 25, 2021 8:23 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:39 am
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:19 pm I really don't get why so many people think SSJB is 10x God in the manga based on the U6 Tournament when it actually implies Blue is barely 10x SSJ1. Hit's Timeskip can't affect people stronger than him, and when SSJ Goku manages to nullify it via skill their fight becomes pretty much even. They're all roughly in the same level.

As far as the gap between Blue and God goes, it seems like SSJBs can't even one shot SSJGs: Hit was still awake after being hit by Goku, and SSJR Goku Black could at least defend himself despite not being fast enough to hit SSJG Vegeta. I think it should only be 50x (or whatever SSJ boost you use in DBS) once it's perfected, as the version used prior to DBS was an incomplete state.

Worth pointing out SSJ multipliers are often dictated by dormant power, emotions and experience with the form (All fancy ways of saying plot), so don't get too hung up on stuff like SSJ3 Gotenks being 400x stronger than SSJ3 Goku or SSJ Goku Black being 50x SSJ2 Trunks but below SSJ2 Vegeta.
Just one detail. When Vegeta was fighting Black in God, he was using the God-Blue technique and was switching to Blue in order to move/block/attack. Only using God in the interim stages of the fight to coserver stamina and get the maximum out of normal Blue's Full Potential, which bursts upon transformation (Perfected Blue being this full potential in a constant). Vegeta obviously weaker than Goku in this arc. I don't recall any instance of pure God Vegeta fighting Rose Black, so I wanted to mention it.
The manga shows us a slow mo of the fight and Vegeta was actually using God to dodge Black, so it seems like Blue was only being used in the offensive and SSJG Vegeta was powerful enough to at least defend himself from Goku Black.

Eh, I prefer the idea that Vegeta's bursts were on pair with standard SSJB instead of PSSJB, since the Oracle Fish says Goku was stronger than Vegeta back then.
Ch. 27, pg. 15.6-7
Context: Beerus observing Vegeta’s training
Beerus: “What’s up with him? He’s more into this than usual.”
Oracle Fish: “It must be because Son Goku was stronger than him during the battle with Zamasu.”
Beerus: “Ah… It’s a stupid rivalry--not worth my time.”
I mean Goku would win in a fight, but that doesn't constitute being stronger: Vegeta can still tap into the same power as Goku by your logic, even if only momentarily. Plus Goku says Vegeta's bursts are exactly what he did vs Hit, and I really doubt PSSJB couldn't KO Hit in his first appearance. The guy was around SSJG's power level.

The trick is the aura: It's presence means the power is leaking, and Goku had to seal it inside his body in order to maintain his power. Vegeta's aura would show up when he went Blue, so it mean the power was still leaking even with those bursts. And by "leaking" I mean he was failing to use Blue's full power, not losing power.
Ch. 24, pg. 36.1-6
Context: Goku and Zamasu appear to be fighting evenly
Trunks: “Goku… This is amazing… He’s fighting equally with Zamasu…!”
Vegeta: “Kakarrot… He managed to seal the Blue’s overflowing power within his body.
Trunks: “What…?”
Vegeta: “Blue’s weakness is that its full power lasts only for a short while. He faced that weakness and overcame it.”

Ch. 22, pg. 25.1-3
Context: Goku and Trunks continue to observe Vegeta fight Goku Black
Trunks: “That’s amazing…! How could he possibly…”
Goku: “He’s storing the power of Blue until the right time and lets it explode when he needs it.
Kaioshin: “Is that the same thing you did back when fighting Hit?”
Goku: “Yeah, but in my case, I could only go as far as making the switch once while Vegeta is able to repeat it over and over again. Furthermore, his power isn’t decreasing. That just shows how hard he’s trained.”
LightBing wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:28 pm Neither went to Kame-sennin with the expectation of participating in TB. I'm pretty confident Kuririn would flop, even if he was stronger than some of the opposition due to his personality.
Goku, ignoring gimmicks I would put above Ranfan and Bacterian. Below Yamcha but with a good fighting chance since he's so tough and that matters more at this level.

It's really tricky to organize at this level.
Giran - Is able to hurt and clash with Goku; gives up after Goku destroy the arena wall.
Ranfan - Dodges an attack from Namu; defeated in one hit.
Bacterian - Is famous as stated by Yamcha; defeat in one hit plus a gag.
Yamcha - Brushed by a gust of wind; we know he was already pretty strong and expected to at least challenge Goku for the title.

The thing is pre-TB we have Chichi cleanly cutting dinosaurs heads while Yamcha 1 shots her. Yamcha throws Goku through a bunch of rocks, etc...
I think the basic martial artists aren't that special. Without the gimmicks we would saw the same thing as during the preliminares, Goku and Kuririn having a walk in the park.

From what we saw, I find no reason to believe Ranfan and Bacterian are more than slightly above the average martial artist.
To give a scale:
Normal Humans - 4-5
Average Martial artists - 5-6.5
Bacterian/Ranfan - 6.5 - 7

Note that at the "human level", KI quantity matters less in my opinion.
Yamcha caught Chi-Chi off guard to knock her out btw, he was afraid of her power. They should be fairly close. But overall all these feats we see in the start of the series should tell you basic martial artists in this world are beasts: Goku can one shot a 9ft tall bear with a sword, Goku and Yamcha throw each others throw pillars, Chi-Chi is faster than a T-Rex and can throw a blade fast enough to decapitate it, Kuririn can one shot a tiger... And none of these guys go beyond the "human wall"

Btw I think it's worth pointing out Gilan being afraid of Goku could be because of Goku still having the power and stamina to do that after breaking the Guru Guru Gum, not just that feat alone. Otherwise he's weaker than Pamputto, and that unlikely.

As said before Yamcha thinks Bacterian is "fearsome", so he's fairly powerful.
Chapter: 35, P7.1-2
Yamcha: “H-he’s a tough one! He’s got fearsome physical strength! But even more fearsome is his ultra bad smell. It’s said he’s never bathed in his life…! His extreme stench makes people hold their nose without even thinking about it. This prevents his opponents from using their arms, leaving them vulnerable to his attacks…!”
Bulma: 4
Normal Humans: 4-5
Peak Humans (IRL standards): 5-6.5
Mr. Satan: 6.66
Videl: 7
~ Post training with Gohan: 8.5

Bacteria: 12 (Rivalling tournament Yamcha)
Ranfan: 10 or less

What do you make of tailess Goku's power? Before their training tailess Goku is comforatbly stronger than Kuririn, but after their training they seem to be equals. Then the tournament has Jackie Chun, Goku's equal, one shotting Kuririn when serious. That's a huge gap.

Goku: 10
~ Tail cut: 8

Kuririn: 7

That's absurdly close to the 6.5 level we have for peak humans, yet Kuririn had the power to one shot a tiger.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:18 pm

Grand Marshal 1 wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:39 am Just one detail. When Vegeta was fighting Black in God, he was using the God-Blue technique and was switching to Blue in order to move/block/attack. Only using God in the interim stages of the fight to coserver stamina and get the maximum out of normal Blue's Full Potential, which bursts upon transformation (Perfected Blue being this full potential in a constant). Vegeta obviously weaker than Goku in this arc. I don't recall any instance of pure God Vegeta fighting Rose Black, so I wanted to mention it.
Vegeta never used Completed Blue's power in the arc. He wouldn't have been one shotted by Fused Zamasu (His fusion boost is confirmed to be big btw) if he did.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Mon Apr 26, 2021 3:12 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 8:23 pm Yamcha caught Chi-Chi off guard to knock her out btw, he was afraid of her power. They should be fairly close. But overall all these feats we see in the start of the series should tell you basic martial artists in this world are beasts: Goku can one shot a 9ft tall bear with a sword, Goku and Yamcha throw each others throw pillars, Chi-Chi is faster than a T-Rex and can throw a blade fast enough to decapitate it, Kuririn can one shot a tiger... And none of these guys go beyond the "human wall"

Btw I think it's worth pointing out Gilan being afraid of Goku could be because of Goku still having the power and stamina to do that after breaking the Guru Guru Gum, not just that feat alone. Otherwise he's weaker than Pamputto, and that unlikely.
As said before Yamcha thinks Bacterian is "fearsome", so he's fairly powerful.
My point is basically nobody in the first arc is a normal martial artist. Neither Goku, Chi-chi, Yamcha or Kuririn even if the later doesn't have the confidence to back it up.

Only at the 21st TB do we really see them. Then besides the clearly strong characters we have Bacterian and Ranfan, who rely on a gag(gimmick).

Yamcha says Bacterian is fearsome but his smell is even more, that's his whole thing. It definitely puts him above the common fighter in the tournament but it's a statement that doesn't give much weight beyond that.

Yamcha doubts his 2nd place after seeing Kuririn in the preliminaries but Bacterian doesn't offer him reflection about how this new opponent affects his chances.

I even think Ranfan might be above Bacterian since she dodges an attack from Namu. Bacterian has no feats.

Good point on Giran. It's just not the wall, breaking the Guru Guru Gum is far more terrifying. Panput is definitely stronger than him, the story needs it.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 8:23 pm Bulma: 4
Normal Humans: 4-5
Peak Humans (IRL standards): 5-6.5
Mr. Satan: 6.66
Videl: 7
~ Post training with Gohan: 8.5

Bacteria: 12 (Rivalling tournament Yamcha)
Ranfan: 10 or less

What do you make of tailess Goku's power? Before their training tailess Goku is comforatbly stronger than Kuririn, but after their training they seem to be equals. Then the tournament has Jackie Chun, Goku's equal, one shotting Kuririn when serious. That's a huge gap.

Goku: 10
~ Tail cut: 8

Kuririn: 7

That's absurdly close to the 6.5 level we have for peak humans, yet Kuririn had the power to one shot a tiger.
I would still put tailess Goku ahead of Kuririn. A bit weaker than Jackie Chun. Goku did push the boulder further than the bald guy and he started ahead, plus main character and all that jazz.

For reference here are my old numbers for the 21st TB. This will be updated.

21st Tenkaichi Budokai

Goku
- 20
- With Tail – 25
- Oozaru - 250

Jackie Chun
- 25
- Max Power Kamehameha - 130

Namu
- 21,5

Kuririn
- 19

Giran
- 14

Yamcha
- 12,5

Ranfan
- 9,1

Bacterian
- 8,8

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon Apr 26, 2021 5:02 pm

LightBing wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 3:12 pm
My point is basically nobody in the first arc is a normal martial artist. Neither Goku, Chi-chi, Yamcha or Kuririn even if the later doesn't have the confidence to back it up.

Only at the 21st TB do we really see them. Then besides the clearly strong characters we have Bacterian and Ranfan, who rely on a gag(gimmick).

Yamcha says Bacterian is fearsome but his smell is even more, that's his whole thing. It definitely puts him above the common fighter in the tournament but it's a statement that doesn't give much weight beyond that.

Yamcha doubts his 2nd place after seeing Kuririn in the preliminaries but Bacterian doesn't offer him reflection about how this new opponent affects his chances.

I even think Ranfan might be above Bacterian since she dodges an attack from Namu. Bacterian has no feats.

Good point on Giran. It's just not the wall, breaking the Guru Guru Gum is far more terrifying. Panput is definitely stronger than him, the story needs it.
Well I'm seeing it the other way around; that's exactly what martial artists in Dragon Ball can do. Kuririn shows Olympic-level speed and is considered within human levels by

"Fearsome" is the same word Yamcha used to desribe Chi-Chi, for example. A bathed Bacterian should still force Yamcha to use the Roga Fufuken at the very least.

Well Namu was afraid of hurting Ranfan so I'm not sure how serious we can take that feat.

I think Giran can still be stronger than Pamputto. Can he really be considered within the human limits if he's not even human? Plus, Roshi or someone else said Pamputto isn't very impressive in a tournament like the Tenkaichi Budokai. Could be in reference to the specific tournament he joined, but I think Pamputto can be fairly weak compared to even 21st Budokai fighters.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:37 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 5:02 pm Well I'm seeing it the other way around; that's exactly what martial artists in Dragon Ball can do. Kuririn shows Olympic-level speed and is considered within human levels by

"Fearsome" is the same word Yamcha used to desribe Chi-Chi, for example. A bathed Bacterian should still force Yamcha to use the Roga Fufuken at the very least.

Well Namu was afraid of hurting Ranfan so I'm not sure how serious we can take that feat.

I think Giran can still be stronger than Pamputto. Can he really be considered within the human limits if he's not even human? Plus, Roshi or someone else said Pamputto isn't very impressive in a tournament like the Tenkaichi Budokai. Could be in reference to the specific tournament he joined, but I think Pamputto can be fairly weak compared to even 21st Budokai fighters.
I take the "human level" plateau to separate human from super-human. Running in the Olympics is impressive but still very much possible.

It's basically when KI matters, making you move huge boulders, jump 30 meters into the air and breaking the 100 meters record by numbers that will be impossible by normal humans.

I just don't give so much weight to that statement. Compare his reaction to King Chappa for example, where he shows apprehension. With Bacterian he's just exposing information and the strength isn't even the main dish but his stench.

Namu was serious without a doubt. The fiery aura and "I will treat you like a man and fight you till my last breath" 5 panels before the dodge is explicit.
I think this feat is greater than Bacterians fame.

Like I said before Ranfan and Bacterian are both defeated in 1 hit, just like everyone else dispatched in the preliminaries.
I don't believe normal martial artists are all that special, I mean Mr. Satan will become the champion of the bunch in a few years and arguably he could lose to 1st arc Yamcha.

Regarding Pamput, he can't be stronger than Giran. I revisited the fight and on his demonstration of strength Pamput breaks a wall, like Goku did in the previous TB. That's not a coincidence. Plus Kame-sennin's line is pretty flattering, calling him an amazing master.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:34 pm

LightBing wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:37 pm
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 5:02 pm Well I'm seeing it the other way around; that's exactly what martial artists in Dragon Ball can do. Kuririn shows Olympic-level speed and is considered within human levels by

"Fearsome" is the same word Yamcha used to desribe Chi-Chi, for example. A bathed Bacterian should still force Yamcha to use the Roga Fufuken at the very least.

Well Namu was afraid of hurting Ranfan so I'm not sure how serious we can take that feat.

I think Giran can still be stronger than Pamputto. Can he really be considered within the human limits if he's not even human? Plus, Roshi or someone else said Pamputto isn't very impressive in a tournament like the Tenkaichi Budokai. Could be in reference to the specific tournament he joined, but I think Pamputto can be fairly weak compared to even 21st Budokai fighters.
I take the "human level" plateau to separate human from super-human. Running in the Olympics is impressive but still very much possible.

It's basically when KI matters, making you move huge boulders, jump 30 meters into the air and breaking the 100 meters record by numbers that will be impossible by normal humans.

I just don't give so much weight to that statement. Compare his reaction to King Chappa for example, where he shows apprehension. With Bacterian he's just exposing information and the strength isn't even the main dish but his stench.

Namu was serious without a doubt. The fiery aura and "I will treat you like a man and fight you till my last breath" 5 panels before the dodge is explicit.
I think this feat is greater than Bacterians fame.

Like I said before Ranfan and Bacterian are both defeated in 1 hit, just like everyone else dispatched in the preliminaries.
I don't believe normal martial artists are all that special, I mean Mr. Satan will become the champion of the bunch in a few years and arguably he could lose to 1st arc Yamcha.

Regarding Pamput, he can't be stronger than Giran. I revisited the fight and on his demonstration of strength Pamput breaks a wall, like Goku did in the previous TB. That's not a coincidence. Plus Kame-sennin's line is pretty flattering, calling him an amazing master.
I just looked at Ranfan vs Namu, and she's very impressive in it. Besides that impressive dodge, look at how the fight started:
Granted Namu was a bit nervous, but Giran also relied on a trick vs Goku (he did the "look there" thing) and didn't even hurt him as much. In the beginning of the series a guy also hit an off guard Goku in the head with an axe and the axe broke.

It's not just "arguable" that he would lose to Yamcha, he totally would. Even Kuririn is stronger than Satan based on how he's barely injured by gunfire.

It's pretty clear by the designs of the fodder fighters alone that there was a downgrade between Budokais. Monsters and big guys like Giran, Bacterian or Man Wolf were replaced by more common folk like Jewel and Killah. The only exception is Puntah, but we know for a fact he's not anything special.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:36 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:34 pm I just looked at Ranfan vs Namu, and she's very impressive in it. Besides that impressive dodge, look at how the fight started:
Spoiler:
Granted Namu was a bit nervous, but Giran also relied on a trick vs Goku (he did the "look there" thing) and didn't even hurt him as much. In the beginning of the series a guy also hit an off guard Goku in the head with an axe and the axe broke.

It's not just "arguable" that he would lose to Yamcha, he totally would. Even Kuririn is stronger than Satan based on how he's barely injured by gunfire.

It's pretty clear by the designs of the fodder fighters alone that there was a downgrade between Budokais. Monsters and big guys like Giran, Bacterian or Man Wolf were replaced by more common folk like Jewel and Killah. The only exception is Puntah, but we know for a fact he's not anything special.
I don't give that much importance to those hits since she's exploring the weakness she created. Much like Bacterian with his smell, they create openings with their gimmicks to punch above their weight class.

That axe incident and everything with Goku is an anomaly. He's much tougher than normal people, the manga would have been over when Bulma shot him in the face if he was normal.
I would always give the win to Goku when fighting someone with equal power at this juncture, when factors beyond KI quantity matter much more.

When did Kuririn survived bullets beyond gags? He didn't want to fight the cops chasing Lunch because of their guns.

I would say it's arguable based on my memory of Mr.Satan. But I need a refresh not sure if some stuff is anime only. For sure he's super fast, covering the distance between him and those psychos who shot all these people and the dog. He also reacted and dodged a portable missile.

There's a definite downgrade but not based on designs. The design choice was general, Toriyama just stopped drawing animal people and such in the whole World.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sat May 01, 2021 5:31 pm

What numbers do you give to Muri and other elder, dragon-type Namekians? Cardass gives him a power level of 5,000; much stronger than even those Namekian farmers. But most of the power levels in cardass seems to be random card game stats only loosely based on power levels so I'd take them as a grain of salt.

And what about Dende? He's probably fairly weak as a kid, but he must have grown fairly strong as a product of his potential unlock. Can Dende be stronger than the average Namekian Warrior?
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