Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Mad Swami]

Well, here goes a list of battle powers I devised a little earlier, a list to which I put a high level of effort, trying to incorporate many, if not all, small elements from the story so that it looks all in place and accurate to what represents the different power hierarchies.

Anyone reading this feel free to comment and offer your input in what could be improved.

<SNIP>

Love it. I have very similar numbers except for Cell and Gohan. I have them a bit lower but overall this is really good

Thanks man, I'm really glad you liked it. Good to receive this approval, make me more confident of my numbers. Anyway, the Boo arc is coming up soon and I hope you like it as well. Thank you!

Np bro, if you want you can check out my numbers if you scroll up a bit. I can't wait to see what you do with Gotenks because he seems to be the most divisive

[MechaTrunks]

Well, I discarded some few Daizenshuu numbers I felt were beyond repair (Nappa's and pre final zenkai Vegeta's... and still in Nappa's case I settled for a middle ground) but I didn't seem the other ones as off and distanced to what was shown in the manga so I felt fine in using them.

I see that your list is pretty unorthodox. Maybe we can have a discussion regarding some aspects of it as some numbers raise curiosity, no offense intended.

Yeah of course, we're here precisely to discuss so ask me anything you want (and of course if you think I'm wrong don't hesitate to say it, I'm not the kind that gets offended by a criticism ^_^).

Regards!

[Koitsukai]

After reading the manga, I'm doing a Buu saga PL list, also including the Cell Games for reference.

Cell Games

Spoiler:

Son Goku: 65 M
--> SS: 3,250 M
--> tired SS: 2,500 M

Son Gohan: 70 M
--> SS....3,500 M
--> SS 2... 7,000 M

Vegeta: 50 M
---> SS: 2,500 M

Trunks: 45 M
---> SS: 2,000 M

Piccolo: 1,800 M

Cell Jr: 2,800 M

Perfect Cell
--> vs Goku: 3,300 M
---> vs Gohan (senzu): 3,700 M
---> Full power: 4,800 M
---> Super Perfect: 6,500 M

Buu saga

Spoiler:

Son Goku: 75 M
--> SS: 3,750 M
--> SS2: 7,500 M
--> SS3: 30,000 M

Son Gohan: 65 M (I have him like Goku at the Cell Games, considering he stalemated with Dabura, compared to Cell)
--> SS....3,250 M
--> SS 2... 6,500 M

Vegeta: 70 M (like Gohan during the Cell Games)
---> SS: 3,500 M
---> SS2: 7,000 M
---> Majin SS2: 7,500 M

Goten & Trunks: 39 M & 40 M
---> SS: 1,950 M & 2,000 M

Piccolo: 2,500 M (fuck it, I'll let him be stronger than Goten and Trunks, and even Shin)

Shin: 3,000 M (I have him around Cell Games SS Goku)
Kibito: 200 M (he will trade blows with Zamasu, so he can't be weaker than Namek Freeza)

Pui Pui: 80,000 (I'm being good here, stronger than most of the Ginyu Force)
Yakon: 60-70 M
Dabura: 3,250 M (Gohan got weaker and fought as SS a Cell-like character, so I give Dabura something like Perfect Cell)

Fat Buu 6,000 M (Gohan said that if he got his rage out aka SS2, he'd beat him)
---> angry vs Dabura: 7,000 M (Gohan said they had no chance)
---> angry vs Vegeta: 8,000 M (Krilin said he kept getting stronger)
----> vs SS3 Goku: 25,000 M(this one is kind of a mess, so input is welcomed)
---> angry when they Satan gets shot: 30,000 M (this is a guess, really)
---> evil Grey Buu: 18,000 M
---> good Buu: 12,000 M


Gotenks: 127 M
--> SS: 6,350 M (I know, how could he fight Super Buu? but to match him or surpassing as SS3 he needs that as SS)
---> SS3: 50,800 M

Super Buu: 50,000 M
--> Buuccolo: 52,500 M
---> Buutenks: 103,300 M
----> Buuhan: 112,000 M
-----> enraged Buuhan: 120,000 M
----> South Buu: 55,000 M

Awakened Gohan: 60,000 M

Vegito 40,000 M (manga, that is)
--> Super Vegito: 200,000 M

Kid Buu: 30,000 M

Thoughts? critiques?

[DBZ Macky]

After reading the manga, I'm doing a Buu saga PL list, also including the Cell Games for reference.

Cell Games

Spoiler:

Son Goku: 65 M
--> SS: 3,250 M
--> tired SS: 2,500 M

Son Gohan: 70 M
--> SS....3,500 M
--> SS 2... 7,000 M

Vegeta: 50 M
---> SS: 2,500 M

Trunks: 45 M
---> SS: 2,000 M

Piccolo: 1,800 M

Cell Jr: 2,800 M

Perfect Cell
--> vs Goku: 3,300 M
---> vs Gohan (senzu): 3,700 M
---> Full power: 4,800 M
---> Super Perfect: 6,500 M

Buu saga

Spoiler:

Son Goku: 75 M
--> SS: 3,750 M
--> SS2: 7,500 M
--> SS3: 30,000 M

Son Gohan: 65 M (I have him like Goku at the Cell Games, considering he stalemated with Dabura, compared to Cell)
--> SS....3,250 M
--> SS 2... 6,500 M

Vegeta: 70 M (like Gohan during the Cell Games)
---> SS: 3,500 M
---> SS2: 7,000 M
---> Majin SS2: 7,500 M

Goten & Trunks: 39 M & 40 M
---> SS: 1,950 M & 2,000 M

Piccolo: 2,500 M (fuck it, I'll let him be stronger than Goten and Trunks, and even Shin)

Shin: 3,000 M (I have him around Cell Games SS Goku)
Kibito: 200 M (he will trade blows with Zamasu, so he can't be weaker than Namek Freeza)

Pui Pui: 80,000 (I'm being good here, stronger than most of the Ginyu Force)
Yakon: 60-70 M
Dabura: 3,250 M (Gohan got weaker and fought as SS a Cell-like character, so I give Dabura something like Perfect Cell)

Fat Buu 6,000 M (Gohan said that if he got his rage out aka SS2, he'd beat him)
---> angry vs Dabura: 7,000 M (Gohan said they had no chance)
---> angry vs Vegeta: 8,000 M (Krilin said he kept getting stronger)
----> vs SS3 Goku: 25,000 M(this one is kind of a mess, so input is welcomed)
---> angry when they Satan gets shot: 30,000 M (this is a guess, really)
---> evil Grey Buu: 18,000 M
---> good Buu: 12,000 M


Gotenks: 127 M
--> SS: 6,350 M (I know, how could he fight Super Buu? but to match him or surpassing as SS3 he needs that as SS)
---> SS3: 50,800 M

Super Buu: 50,000 M
--> Buuccolo: 52,500 M
---> Buutenks: 103,300 M
----> Buuhan: 112,000 M
-----> enraged Buuhan: 120,000 M
----> South Buu: 55,000 M

Awakened Gohan: 60,000 M

Vegito 40,000 M (manga, that is)
--> Super Vegito: 200,000 M

Kid Buu: 30,000 M

Thoughts? critiques?

Seems like an perfect list to me, though that may be in part because my own list is very similar to this. Some things I would like to share my thoughts on though:

1. I'm fairly certain there's a guide that states Gohan didn't change in power at all since the Cell Games, which kinda goes against what Vegeta said in the Manga/Anime, but I personally put Gohan (25th Budokai) = Gohan (Cell Games) which you could argue that Gohan got back in shape training with Goten in terms of power, but was still rusty skill-wise since the only sparring he'd done since the Cell Games was against a literal child, and even then Goten only went Super Saiyan a little while before the Tournament would commence.

2. Piccolo being stronger than Goten and Trunks makes sense to me because of the whole "Piccolo coming out strong" when the lot of them get absorbed by Buu. Perhaps everyone placed their faith in Goten and Trunks because they were relatively close to Piccolo and SS Gohan, and had the potential to get much stronger. If I was in their shoes, I would put my bets on the kids as well, seeing how easily they achieved Super Saiyan, and with proper training might even attain SS2, making them much stronger than Piccolo and co.
You also have Piccolo lower than Shin, which I agree with.

3. Kibito was on par with Base Gohan, so I don't think he should be stronger than Namek Freeza at all. Him fighting Zamasu shouldn't mean much when we know for a fact Zamasu could've even easily pwned Shin on the spot along with every other Kaioshin at the time.

4. Agreed with Yakon and Dabra, would personally put Pui-Pui > Ginyu since Babidi recruits the strongest fighters + Majin Boost (if that's a thing) but it's not like it matters anyways. Pui Pui could be weaker than Nappa for how he was bragging about his planet's gravity for all I care. I do find it strange how Dabra sensed great energy from the Saiyans and yet they sent fucking Pui-Pui to fight them, and Shin's frightened of him for some reason if I recall correctly.

5. Fat Buu shouldn't be that strong against SS3, considering Goku was stalling for time, and had the clear upper-hand for most of the fight.

6. Super Buu was pretty much fucking with SS Gotenks, so I wouldn't even try to scale anything before Gotenks goes SS3. Speaking of which, what are your thoughts on the whole Base Gotenks (Post RoSaT) > SS Gotenks (Pre RoSaT) debate that has been going around since time immemorial? I personally think scaling Gotenks gets really weird with how he's able to outrun (or I guess, out-fly) Piccolo in his Base Form even pre RoSaT, and if it wasn't for the bloated 50x SS multiplier, I would certainly put Base Gotenks above SS Goten and Trunks.

7. Unless it's a typo, that's a 5x multiplier for Super Vegetto. In the Manga, I don't feel that Vegetto needs to be that much stronger than SS Goku and SS Vegeta. I personally try to combine the Anime and Manga's scaling so I have Base Vegetto slightly higher than Buuhan though.

[Limitless123]

So I've done some scaling with Movies 1-13 and came up with this. It won't be a power levels list as much as it's a overall guideline for movies, but I'll include some numbers and hope this might help for a future movies list. I'll be skipping Movies 1, 2 and 3 since they're bit obvious.

Also I won't be linking sources since A) There are too many of them for me to bother listing them all at once and B) I suppose the name of the subforum makes it clear I shouldn't worry this much about sources.

Movie 4: Lord Slug

Spoiler:

So, I'll go straight to the big one (Literally): Slug. Most of the time he's easily beating up Goku and suggests Goku would've had a chance against his older self. The question here lies on his giant self: Kaio says Freeza, and possibly not even a Super Saiyan (Which Goku used to beat normal Slug around... kinda) could beat him.

Well, the movie was released around the time Goku was still forming that Genki Dama on Namek, so obviously the script was written much earlier. Hard to tell when exactly, but Akira Toriyama didn't plan on Freeza transforming so much so above 2nd or 3rd form Freeza seems about right. This is supported by Daizenshuu 6 saying the Z Fighters are their Ginyu fight selves here, so Slug seems like a movie counterpart for Ginyu/Earlier forms Freeza. These are the numbers I came up with:

Goku: 90,000
~ SSJ: 4,500,000
~ Kaio-Ken x100 (Stated by movie pamphlet he used one): 9,000,000

Lord Slug: 100,000
~ Prime: 500,000
~ Giant: 5,000,000

Lord Slug's henchmen: 20,000 - 40,000 (They are blatant ripoffs of Freza's own goons, so seems accurate to give them roughly the same levels.

Piccolo: 45,000
Gohan: 18,000
Kuririn: 12,000
Around their Ginyu level fights, and Piccolo is above them.

Movie 5: Cooler's Revenge

Spoiler:

Cooler's men are sent to kill a man who killed Freeza, and while they're full of special tricks I don't imagine guys somewhat above Ginyu (As V-Jump numbers implied) pulling that off, so they're probably stronger than those numbers say. Between 1st and 2nd form Freeza seems a nice placement given how they deal with the Z Fighters, specially Sauza vs Piccolo.

For Goku and Cooler, well... Some people do believe Base Goku > Freeza since Cooler suspects so... Based on Goku managing to fire a blast from a disvantage position... Reminds me a lot of when Master Tsuru thinks Goku indeed defeated Tao based on how he defeated Pamputto. As in, these feats tell more about Goku's skill than his power, and in both situations it's only when Goku really goes all out (Be it as a SSJ or in Match Level) that it's confirmed he really defeated Freeza/Tao. Anyway Cooler fights evenly with Base Goku and his Ki only surpasses Freeza's after he transforms. Oh and Roshi says Goku's stronger since he got back from Namek.

Goku: 4,000,000
~ Kaio-Ken x20: 80,000,000 for Cooler to swim through
~ SSJ: 200,000,000

Cooler: 4,000,000
~ Transformed: 160,000,000

Piccolo: 1,500,000

Cooler's Armored Squad: 750,000 - 1,250,000

Movie 6: Cooler Strikes Back

Spoiler:

Nothing much new here I think. Cooler acknowledges Goku's gotten better, gets narrowly defeated by Goku but gives Goku and Vegeta some trouble after his mechanical Zenkai... And 10 billions copies of him.

Dende is god of Earth, but the movie was released months before that happened... Hell it was released just after Piccolo and Kami merged. Dende was supposedly added in the last minute and Piccolo is kinda treated like fodder here more than in Movie 7, so I'd suppose it's more of an aesthetical decision and Piccolo is around his Android Arc self.

Goku: 4,200,000
~ Kaio-Ken x10: 42,000,000
~ SSJ: 210,000,000

Metal Cooler: 180,000,000
~ Repaired: 240,000,000

Vegeta: 4,000,000
~ SSJ: 200,000,000

Piccolo: 3,000,000
Gohan: 3,000,000
Kuririn: 1,500,000
Since it's the movieverse, I'm giving Kuririn some buffing here. I mean I don't have him going past 30k in the main series...

Movie 7 - Super Android 13

Spoiler:

These Androids are pretty weak tbf... Or are the SSJs too strong? I mean I don't have Saiyans getting this strong in the main series, so these Toeiverse power ups have them pushing Android levels in the movies. Anyway the new Android trio isn't much for the SSJs except for 13, specially after he absorbs the other two. But Daizenshuu 7 claims 16 is Gero's strongest android after Cell, so Super 13 is still below that.

Piccolo also probably is fused with Kami here. We see 17 killing Gero in the opening, so for things to be at peace either Piccolo defeated the twins or the remote control was used, though they weren't ready until after Piccolo was merged. Gohan also thinks Piccolo will be a game changer and he does swing 13 around like a ragdoll.

SSJ Goku: 210,000,000
SSJ Vegeta: 200,000,000
SSJ Trunks: 180,000,000

Android 14: 135,000,000
Android 15: 150,000,000
Android 13: 225,000,000
~ Super: 325,000,000

Piccolo: 225,000,000
Gohan: 3,000,000
Kuririn: 1,500,000

For reference:
Cyborg 18: 200,000,000
Cyborg 17: 225,000,000
Cyborg 16: 375,000,000

Movie 8: The Legendary Super Saiyan

Spoiler:

The group gets lumped together pretty often in power statements, so it sounds like they were all very close in power. By the time of the movie's production Goku was the only one who had showed (half of) his power, so the others are probably just guesses. Feats are tough to judge because of Broly's fighting style (Getting rid of anyone real quick to torture Goku) and Toei's inconsistency with fights, but Goku > Vegeta > Trunks > Piccolo > Gohan sounds like the right choice.

As for Broly. I don't think he's a (Multi?) Galaxy buster as people speculated since he didn't do it all at once and even Cell was considered a Galaxy (Universal in the anime) threat. He's still pretty OP to tank Vegeta's kick even before he's turned into a LSSJ, and as one he just tears and shreds and tanks through the Z Fighters like a raging bull. His stomach, where he was cut with a knife years ago, seems to be his weak point since Goku's blows him up when he punches him there.

SSJ Goku: 3,000,000,000 (Same as his CG self)
SSJ Vegeta: 2,500,000,000
SSJ Trunks: 2,400,000,000
Piccolo: 2,000,000,000
SSJ Gohan: 1,500,000,000

Paragus: 1,000

SSJ Broly: 7,500,000,000
~ LSSJ: 15,000,000,000

For reference:
Cell Jrs/CG SSJ Vegeta and Trunks: 2,000,000,000
SSJ Gohan (CG): 3,600,000,000

~ SSJ2: 27,000,000,000

Cell (Full Power): 7,500,000,000
~ SPC: 13,500,000,000

Movie 9: Bojack Unbound

Spoiler:

The cast doesn't seem much different if at all here. While this is a universe where the Cell Games happened, peace has taken it's tool on the Z Fighters: Vegeta has lost his will to fight since Goku's death and Gohan has been focusing on his studies, with Roshi even suggesting the winner will be either him or Trunks. Though he does better than Trunks against Bojack later, which probably is his rage pulling him back into shape. Worth pointing out Boo Saga has showed us rustiness affects more skill than actual power: Only Gohan's SSJ2 power had decreased there, arguably due to lack of rage. Humans seem to be pretty OP here when Tenshinhan forces Trunks to go SSJ to get his win.

As for Bojack and his crew, they aren't particulary powerful. Gokua gets one shot by SSJ Trunks and the rest of the crew relies on teamwork and their invisible strings to win. Bojack himself has more trouble than Broly with those guys: Piccolo sends him flying with his kick, Base Goku's punch makes him split blood, and Gohan holds his own against Full Power Bojack, only to give him a whole in the chest as a SSJ2. Worse than even Perfect Cell.

SSJ Gohan: 3,600,000,000
~ SSJ2: 27,000,000,000

SSJ Trunks: 2,000,000,000
SSJ Vegeta: 2,000,000,000
Piccolo: 1,500,000,000 (I have him below #16 in the manga, but I'll be generous and keep his M8 power here)

Tenshinhan: 40,000,000
Kuririn: 45,000,000
Yamcha: 37,500,000

Goku: 60,000,000

Bojack: 3,000,000,000
~ Full Power: 4,500,000,000
Bojack's Gang: 1,000,000,000 - 1,500,000,000

Movie 10: Broly's Second Coming

Spoiler:

Gohan seems like he hasn't been slacking off in this universe, so he keeps his Cell Games self. He does say he's grown considerably in power since the last Broly battle, but he probably was referring to SSJ2. He's shown to fight SSJ Broly evenly in base, but that's more a matter of Broly's own insanity interfering with his own thoughts than Gohan being absurdely OP. Goten and Trunks are their 25th Budokai levels as per Daizenshuu.

as for Broly, Gohan says he's "As much of a monster as ever" while he's still a SSJ, so he's stronger than ever before. Daizenshuu 6 also says he got a Zenkai from Movie 8 and surpassed even Goku.

SSJ Goten: 2,400,000,000
SSJ Trunks: 2,500,000,000

SSJ2 Gohan: 27,000,000,000

SSJ Broly: 20,000,000,000
~ LSSJ: 40,000,000,000

For reference:
SSJ2 Goku: 30,000,000,000
SSJ2 Vegeta (Pre Majin): 24,000,000,000

Movie 11: Bio-Broly

Spoiler:

I don't think there's anything to explain here. But here's my numbers anyway:

SSJ Goten: 2,400,000,000
SSJ Trunks: 2,500,000,000
#18: 200,000,000
Kuririn: 45,000,000

Bio-Broly: 3,750,000,000

Movie 12: Fusion Reborn/Movie 13: Wrath of the Dragon

Spoiler:

Mixing both movies together since they seem to take place within a similar time and the scalings correlate. Toei's now defunct website implies Janemba is the strongest movie villain given his perfomance against Goku, also implying Goku isn't much different if at all in both movies.

Movie 13 features Hildegarn being beaten by Gotenks, transforming and beating everyone until Goku comes and fights evenly with him before using the Dragon's Fist to end the fight. A far cry from how Goku fared against Super Janemba.

SSJ2 Goku: 1,000,000,000,000
~ SSJ3: 2,000,000,000,000

SSJ2 Vegeta: 800,000,000,000

Paikuhan: 750,000,000,000

SSJ Gotenks: 500,000,000,000
~ SSJ3: 1,250,000,000,000

Gohan: 1,500,000,000,000

Hildegarn (Half): 500,000,000,000
~ Whole: 1,000,000,000,000
~ Transformed: 2,000,000,000,000

Janemba: 1,500,000,000,000
~ Transformed: 3,000,000,000,000
~ Full Power: 7,500,000,000,000

Super Gogeta: 15,000,000,000,000

[Koitsukai]

After reading the manga, I'm doing a Buu saga PL list, also including the Cell Games for reference.

Cell Games

Spoiler:

Son Goku: 65 M
--> SS: 3,250 M
--> tired SS: 2,500 M

Son Gohan: 70 M
--> SS....3,500 M
--> SS 2... 7,000 M

Vegeta: 50 M
---> SS: 2,500 M

Trunks: 45 M
---> SS: 2,000 M

Piccolo: 1,800 M

Cell Jr: 2,800 M

Perfect Cell
--> vs Goku: 3,300 M
---> vs Gohan (senzu): 3,700 M
---> Full power: 4,800 M
---> Super Perfect: 6,500 M

Buu saga

Spoiler:

Son Goku: 75 M
--> SS: 3,750 M
--> SS2: 7,500 M
--> SS3: 30,000 M

Son Gohan: 65 M (I have him like Goku at the Cell Games, considering he stalemated with Dabura, compared to Cell)
--> SS....3,250 M
--> SS 2... 6,500 M

Vegeta: 70 M (like Gohan during the Cell Games)
---> SS: 3,500 M
---> SS2: 7,000 M
---> Majin SS2: 7,500 M

Goten & Trunks: 39 M & 40 M
---> SS: 1,950 M & 2,000 M

Piccolo: 2,500 M (fuck it, I'll let him be stronger than Goten and Trunks, and even Shin)

Shin: 3,000 M (I have him around Cell Games SS Goku)
Kibito: 200 M (he will trade blows with Zamasu, so he can't be weaker than Namek Freeza)

Pui Pui: 80,000 (I'm being good here, stronger than most of the Ginyu Force)
Yakon: 60-70 M
Dabura: 3,250 M (Gohan got weaker and fought as SS a Cell-like character, so I give Dabura something like Perfect Cell)

Fat Buu 6,000 M (Gohan said that if he got his rage out aka SS2, he'd beat him)
---> angry vs Dabura: 7,000 M (Gohan said they had no chance)
---> angry vs Vegeta: 8,000 M (Krilin said he kept getting stronger)
----> vs SS3 Goku: 25,000 M(this one is kind of a mess, so input is welcomed)
---> angry when they Satan gets shot: 30,000 M (this is a guess, really)
---> evil Grey Buu: 18,000 M
---> good Buu: 12,000 M


Gotenks: 127 M
--> SS: 6,350 M (I know, how could he fight Super Buu? but to match him or surpassing as SS3 he needs that as SS)
---> SS3: 50,800 M

Super Buu: 50,000 M
--> Buuccolo: 52,500 M
---> Buutenks: 103,300 M
----> Buuhan: 112,000 M
-----> enraged Buuhan: 120,000 M
----> South Buu: 55,000 M

Awakened Gohan: 60,000 M

Vegito 40,000 M (manga, that is)
--> Super Vegito: 200,000 M

Kid Buu: 30,000 M

Thoughts? critiques?

Seems like an perfect list to me, though that may be in part because my own list is very similar to this. Some things I would like to share my thoughts on though:

1. I'm fairly certain there's a guide that states Gohan didn't change in power at all since the Cell Games, which kinda goes against what Vegeta said in the Manga/Anime, but I personally put Gohan (25th Budokai) = Gohan (Cell Games) which you could argue that Gohan got back in shape training with Goten in terms of power, but was still rusty skill-wise since the only sparring he'd done since the Cell Games was against a literal child, and even then Goten only went Super Saiyan a little while before the Tournament would commence.

2. Piccolo being stronger than Goten and Trunks makes sense to me because of the whole "Piccolo coming out strong" when the lot of them get absorbed by Buu. Perhaps everyone placed their faith in Goten and Trunks because they were relatively close to Piccolo and SS Gohan, and had the potential to get much stronger. If I was in their shoes, I would put my bets on the kids as well, seeing how easily they achieved Super Saiyan, and with proper training might even attain SS2, making them much stronger than Piccolo and co.
You also have Piccolo lower than Shin, which I agree with.

3. Kibito was on par with Base Gohan, so I don't think he should be stronger than Namek Freeza at all. Him fighting Zamasu shouldn't mean much when we know for a fact Zamasu could've even easily pwned Shin on the spot along with every other Kaioshin at the time.

4. Agreed with Yakon and Dabra, would personally put Pui-Pui > Ginyu since Babidi recruits the strongest fighters + Majin Boost (if that's a thing) but it's not like it matters anyways. Pui Pui could be weaker than Nappa for how he was bragging about his planet's gravity for all I care. I do find it strange how Dabra sensed great energy from the Saiyans and yet they sent fucking Pui-Pui to fight them, and Shin's frightened of him for some reason if I recall correctly.

5. Fat Buu shouldn't be that strong against SS3, considering Goku was stalling for time, and had the clear upper-hand for most of the fight.

6. Super Buu was pretty much fucking with SS Gotenks, so I wouldn't even try to scale anything before Gotenks goes SS3. Speaking of which, what are your thoughts on the whole Base Gotenks (Post RoSaT) > SS Gotenks (Pre RoSaT) debate that has been going around since time immemorial? I personally think scaling Gotenks gets really weird with how he's able to outrun (or I guess, out-fly) Piccolo in his Base Form even pre RoSaT, and if it wasn't for the bloated 50x SS multiplier, I would certainly put Base Gotenks above SS Goten and Trunks.

7. Unless it's a typo, that's a 5x multiplier for Super Vegetto. In the Manga, I don't feel that Vegetto needs to be that much stronger than SS Goku and SS Vegeta. I personally try to combine the Anime and Manga's scaling so I have Base Vegetto slightly higher than Buuhan though.

Thanks. Yes, I guess Kibito can't be stronger than Freeza because he seemed relative to base Gohan at best.
I agree about SS3 Goku and Buu, Goku also said later that he could've killed him but reasons, so Buu should not be as close to SS3 as I had him.

I think it's a pure mess everything pertaining to Gotenks, specially the whole pre-ROSAT stuff. It would seem that base Gotenks wasn't stronger than SS2 Majin Vegeta because both lost to Fat Buu, he should've died immediately if he wasn't close to SS2 Vegeta(based on the anime showing him fighting in his base of course).

And yeah, lol it was a typo, I missed a couple of zeroes, he should be 2,000,000,000,000. My list was manga only, so his base can't be accurately measured, but for the anime I don't think Vegito needs a base that already eclipses Buuhan. My headcanon explains base Vegito stomping Buuhan by low-key using a KKx3, with my manga numbers. Nothing supports it or even implies it, but it always seemed odd to me that base Vegito was that much stronger than Buuhan.

[Koitsukai]

So I've done some scaling with Movies 1-13 and came up with this. It won't be a power levels list as much as it's a overall guideline for movies, but I'll include some numbers and hope this might help for a future movies list. I'll be skipping Movies 1, 2 and 3 since they're bit obvious.

Also I won't be linking sources since A) There are too many of them for me to bother listing them all at once and B) I suppose the name of the subforum makes it clear I shouldn't worry this much about sources.

Movie 4: Lord Slug

Spoiler:

So, I'll go straight to the big one (Literally): Slug. Most of the time he's easily beating up Goku and suggests Goku would've had a chance against his older self. The question here lies on his giant self: Kaio says Freeza, and possibly not even a Super Saiyan (Which Goku used to beat normal Slug around... kinda) could beat him.

Well, the movie was released around the time Goku was still forming that Genki Dama on Namek, so obviously the script was written much earlier. Hard to tell when exactly, but Akira Toriyama didn't plan on Freeza transforming so much so above 2nd or 3rd form Freeza seems about right. This is supported by Daizenshuu 6 saying the Z Fighters are their Ginyu fight selves here, so Slug seems like a movie counterpart for Ginyu/Earlier forms Freeza. These are the numbers I came up with:

Goku: 90,000
~ SSJ: 4,500,000
~ Kaio-Ken x100 (Stated by movie pamphlet he used one): 9,000,000

Lord Slug: 100,000
~ Prime: 500,000
~ Giant: 5,000,000

Lord Slug's henchmen: 20,000 - 40,000 (They are blatant ripoffs of Freza's own goons, so seems accurate to give them roughly the same levels.

Piccolo: 45,000
Gohan: 18,000
Kuririn: 12,000
Around their Ginyu level fights, and Piccolo is above them.

Movie 5: Cooler's Revenge

Spoiler:

Cooler's men are sent to kill a man who killed Freeza, and while they're full of special tricks I don't imagine guys somewhat above Ginyu (As V-Jump numbers implied) pulling that off, so they're probably stronger than those numbers say. Between 1st and 2nd form Freeza seems a nice placement given how they deal with the Z Fighters, specially Sauza vs Piccolo.

For Goku and Cooler, well... Some people do believe Base Goku > Freeza since Cooler suspects so... Based on Goku managing to fire a blast from a disvantage position... Reminds me a lot of when Master Tsuru thinks Goku indeed defeated Tao based on how he defeated Pamputto. As in, these feats tell more about Goku's skill than his power, and in both situations it's only when Goku really goes all out (Be it as a SSJ or in Match Level) that it's confirmed he really defeated Freeza/Tao. Anyway Cooler fights evenly with Base Goku and his Ki only surpasses Freeza's after he transforms. Oh and Roshi says Goku's stronger since he got back from Namek.

Goku: 4,000,000
~ Kaio-Ken x20: 80,000,000 for Cooler to swim through
~ SSJ: 200,000,000

Cooler: 4,000,000
~ Transformed: 160,000,000

Piccolo: 1,500,000

Cooler's Armored Squad: 750,000 - 1,250,000

Movie 6: Cooler Strikes Back

Spoiler:

Nothing much new here I think. Cooler acknowledges Goku's gotten better, gets narrowly defeated by Goku but gives Goku and Vegeta some trouble after his mechanical Zenkai... And 10 billions copies of him.

Dende is god of Earth, but the movie was released months before that happened... Hell it was released just after Piccolo and Kami merged. Dende was supposedly added in the last minute and Piccolo is kinda treated like fodder here more than in Movie 7, so I'd suppose it's more of an aesthetical decision and Piccolo is around his Android Arc self.

Goku: 4,200,000
~ Kaio-Ken x10: 42,000,000
~ SSJ: 210,000,000

Metal Cooler: 180,000,000
~ Repaired: 240,000,000

Vegeta: 4,000,000
~ SSJ: 200,000,000

Piccolo: 3,000,000
Gohan: 3,000,000
Kuririn: 1,500,000
Since it's the movieverse, I'm giving Kuririn some buffing here. I mean I don't have him going past 30k in the main series...

Movie 7 - Super Android 13

Spoiler:

These Androids are pretty weak tbf... Or are the SSJs too strong? I mean I don't have Saiyans getting this strong in the main series, so these Toeiverse power ups have them pushing Android levels in the movies. Anyway the new Android trio isn't much for the SSJs except for 13, specially after he absorbs the other two. But Daizenshuu 7 claims 16 is Gero's strongest android after Cell, so Super 13 is still below that.

Piccolo also probably is fused with Kami here. We see 17 killing Gero in the opening, so for things to be at peace either Piccolo defeated the twins or the remote control was used, though they weren't ready until after Piccolo was merged. Gohan also thinks Piccolo will be a game changer and he does swing 13 around like a ragdoll.

SSJ Goku: 210,000,000
SSJ Vegeta: 200,000,000
SSJ Trunks: 180,000,000

Android 14: 135,000,000
Android 15: 150,000,000
Android 13: 225,000,000
~ Super: 325,000,000

Piccolo: 225,000,000
Gohan: 3,000,000
Kuririn: 1,500,000

For reference:
Cyborg 18: 200,000,000
Cyborg 17: 225,000,000
Cyborg 16: 375,000,000

Movie 8: The Legendary Super Saiyan

Spoiler:

The group gets lumped together pretty often in power statements, so it sounds like they were all very close in power. By the time of the movie's production Goku was the only one who had showed (half of) his power, so the others are probably just guesses. Feats are tough to judge because of Broly's fighting style (Getting rid of anyone real quick to torture Goku) and Toei's inconsistency with fights, but Goku > Vegeta > Trunks > Piccolo > Gohan sounds like the right choice.

As for Broly. I don't think he's a (Multi?) Galaxy buster as people speculated since he didn't do it all at once and even Cell was considered a Galaxy (Universal in the anime) threat. He's still pretty OP to tank Vegeta's kick even before he's turned into a LSSJ, and as one he just tears and shreds and tanks through the Z Fighters like a raging bull. His stomach, where he was cut with a knife years ago, seems to be his weak point since Goku's blows him up when he punches him there.

SSJ Goku: 3,000,000,000 (Same as his CG self)
SSJ Vegeta: 2,500,000,000
SSJ Trunks: 2,400,000,000
Piccolo: 2,000,000,000
SSJ Gohan: 1,500,000,000

Paragus: 1,000

SSJ Broly: 7,500,000,000
~ LSSJ: 15,000,000,000

For reference:
Cell Jrs/CG SSJ Vegeta and Trunks: 2,000,000,000
SSJ Gohan (CG): 3,600,000,000

~ SSJ2: 27,000,000,000

Cell (Full Power): 7,500,000,000
~ SPC: 13,500,000,000

Movie 9: Bojack Unbound

Spoiler:

The cast doesn't seem much different if at all here. While this is a universe where the Cell Games happened, peace has taken it's tool on the Z Fighters: Vegeta has lost his will to fight since Goku's death and Gohan has been focusing on his studies, with Roshi even suggesting the winner will be either him or Trunks. Though he does better than Trunks against Bojack later, which probably is his rage pulling him back into shape. Worth pointing out Boo Saga has showed us rustiness affects more skill than actual power: Only Gohan's SSJ2 power had decreased there, arguably due to lack of rage. Humans seem to be pretty OP here when Tenshinhan forces Trunks to go SSJ to get his win.

As for Bojack and his crew, they aren't particulary powerful. Gokua gets one shot by SSJ Trunks and the rest of the crew relies on teamwork and their invisible strings to win. Bojack himself has more trouble than Broly with those guys: Piccolo sends him flying with his kick, Base Goku's punch makes him split blood, and Gohan holds his own against Full Power Bojack, only to give him a whole in the chest as a SSJ2. Worse than even Perfect Cell.

SSJ Gohan: 3,600,000,000
~ SSJ2: 27,000,000,000

SSJ Trunks: 2,000,000,000
SSJ Vegeta: 2,000,000,000
Piccolo: 1,500,000,000 (I have him below #16 in the manga, but I'll be generous and keep his M8 power here)

Tenshinhan: 40,000,000
Kuririn: 45,000,000
Yamcha: 37,500,000

Goku: 60,000,000

Bojack: 3,000,000,000
~ Full Power: 4,500,000,000
Bojack's Gang: 1,000,000,000 - 1,500,000,000

Movie 10: Broly's Second Coming

Spoiler:

Gohan seems like he hasn't been slacking off in this universe, so he keeps his Cell Games self. He does say he's grown considerably in power since the last Broly battle, but he probably was referring to SSJ2. He's shown to fight SSJ Broly evenly in base, but that's more a matter of Broly's own insanity interfering with his own thoughts than Gohan being absurdely OP. Goten and Trunks are their 25th Budokai levels as per Daizenshuu.

as for Broly, Gohan says he's "As much of a monster as ever" while he's still a SSJ, so he's stronger than ever before. Daizenshuu 6 also says he got a Zenkai from Movie 8 and surpassed even Goku.

SSJ Goten: 2,400,000,000
SSJ Trunks: 2,500,000,000

SSJ2 Gohan: 27,000,000,000

SSJ Broly: 20,000,000,000
~ LSSJ: 40,000,000,000

For reference:
SSJ2 Goku: 30,000,000,000
SSJ2 Vegeta (Pre Majin): 24,000,000,000

Movie 11: Bio-Broly

Spoiler:

I don't think there's anything to explain here. But here's my numbers anyway:

SSJ Goten: 2,400,000,000
SSJ Trunks: 2,500,000,000
#18: 200,000,000
Kuririn: 45,000,000

Bio-Broly: 3,750,000,000

Movie 12: Fusion Reborn/Movie 13: Wrath of the Dragon

Spoiler:

Mixing both movies together since they seem to take place within a similar time and the scalings correlate. Toei's now defunct website implies Janemba is the strongest movie villain given his perfomance against Goku, also implying Goku isn't much different if at all in both movies.

Movie 13 features Hildegarn being beaten by Gotenks, transforming and beating everyone until Goku comes and fights evenly with him before using the Dragon's Fist to end the fight. A far cry from how Goku fared against Super Janemba.

SSJ2 Goku: 1,000,000,000,000
~ SSJ3: 2,000,000,000,000

SSJ2 Vegeta: 800,000,000,000

Paikuhan: 750,000,000,000

SSJ Gotenks: 500,000,000,000
~ SSJ3: 1,250,000,000,000

Gohan: 1,500,000,000,000

Hildegarn (Half): 500,000,000,000
~ Whole: 1,000,000,000,000
~ Transformed: 2,000,000,000,000

Janemba: 1,500,000,000,000
~ Transformed: 3,000,000,000,000
~ Full Power: 7,500,000,000,000

Super Gogeta: 15,000,000,000,000

Disclaimer: I believe the movies happen after certain events of the anime. Like Goku defeating Freeza with the genki dama and never unlocking SS until Cooler shows up, or the 1st Broly movie happening in a world were Super Vegeta killed 2nd for Cell.

Movie 4: Slug
I agree here, although I always thought Goku used KKx10, Toei really went to town with the kaioken if it was x100!! I would personally have Goku at half of what you have, like 40 or 50 k, and maybe Giant Slug not being a 10x boost and maybe 2x? but I can understand your numbers.

Movie 5: Cooler
I agree, and while at first I was going to say the kikosentai could never be that strong, Sauza did fought post-Namek Piccolo. I would still have them not-close to 1M.

Movie 6: Cooler 2
I agree. Here I would say Piccolo never got to merge with Kami, probably they defeated A-19 and A-20 and the stronger androids never were activated, explaining Piccolo's fodderness.

Movie 7: S-13
I agree. Although Piccolo doesn't seem that strong after merging with Kami, he seems more like relative to the SS than absolutely stronger than them like in the anime. But without Kamiccolo, the androids could not be taken care of.

Movie 8: Broly
I like the numbers except Goku being like his CG self although not far from it either, they were living in peace so no FPSS for Goku and Gohan. My guess: Vegeta defeated Cell or Krilin used the remote, and Goku and Gohan never had to keep SS on thus not having everything that came with it. Although I don't agree with your multiplier for SS2, seems too much to me.

Movie 9: Bojack
I like it. I think Bojack is ok, I might put him a little higher, but he really wasn't that impressive to begin with.

Movie 10: Broly 2
I think those numbers are fair.

Movie 11: Broly 3
yes, let's skip this one

Movie 12/13:
The Gogeta movie happens in a world were Goku and Vegeta are dead, Gohan is ultimate and Gotenks is a thing, but Buu is not. Janemba beats SS3 Goku but doesn't get the full advantage until his magic starts to caught Goku off guard. I would put Janemba lower than the still alive saiyans, maybe stronger than Gotenks but I don't think he could do to Ultimate Gohan what he did to SS3 Goku.

Hirudegan movie really confuses me. He can one-shot and defuse Gotenks, take out Ultimate Gohan like he is a bug, but SS3 Goku actually takes his FP attacks and laughs. It implies this SS3 Goku has surpassed his children.

[Koitsukai]

I'm doing the Super manga PL now, I'm skipping RoF because Toyo did so too, and for BoG I'm using the movie because it's too rushed in the manga and has non-sense like Beerus saying only after Goku goes SS2 that he can now see how he could defeat Freeza, while in the movie he doesn't believe his base could've done it but SS.
Also, I'm keeping them close to their Buu selves because not much time went by for them to become greatly superior or greatly inferior.

BoG

Spoiler:

Goku 80M (weaker than FP Freeza)
---->SS3 Goku 32,000M

Vegeta 75M
---->SS2 7,500 M
---->Enraged SS2 Vegeta: 34,000M
(I'm headcanonning here that his rage mode broke his SS2 limits and became comparable to his hypotethical SS3, like Trunks later would say he trained towards to. Although nothing is said about him finally surpassing Goku in the manga)

Awakened Gohan: 33,000 M
(I know this is odd, but Vegeta did better than him, it's more likely that Gohan lost power than to believe Vegeta got angry and now can almost solo Z)

SSGod Goku: stronger than Vegito, but the manga never makes that claim.

Beerus: a lot stronger than SSG

Champa arc

Spoiler:

The manga seems to drop the massive base strenght from RoF, or better put: Toyo never considered it. I won't be putting much thought on the BoG numbers.

Goku: 200M (more than twice as strong than before after training his base with Whis and ROSAT for 3 years )
---> SS 10,000M

Vegeta 199M (Goku was one step ahead under Whis)
---> SS 9,950M

Piccolo: 5,000 M (managed to face a weakened Frost)

Mr. Buu: 12,000 M (Goku says they need Buu to win the tournament, this implies to me their base now isn't what RoF made them to be, and that Buu is still relevant)

Botamo: 150 M (although his endurance is what makes him dangerous)

Mageta: 10,000 M???

Frost
--->1st form 180 M (couldn't keep up with base Goku)
--->Assault form 220 M (made Goku sweat and go SS)
--->Final form 8,000M (Vados said Frost was the strongest of U6, but I guess she wasn't including Hit)

Cabba 195 M(Vegeta said they were even in base but he still was in better shape than Cabba before transforming)
--->SS 9,750 M

Here is where things get weird:

Hit 10,000 M (Beerus said SS Goku was stronger but it was that fucking Time Skip that was messing things up, so I put them as equals)
---> FP 100,000 M ??? (hard to tell really, he did nothing with it)

Vegeta
---> tired SSB: 9,000 M or less (If Vegeta wasn't able to use 1/10th of his SSB power, to be defeated by a technique that works better against equal or weaker opponents and SS Goku was considered stronger than said technique user, his SSB should be around 90,000 M in order for it's 1/10th --9,000M-- to not be enough for Hit who is at best equally stronger than SS Goku. And if we assume it was actually 1/100th, then SSB Vegeta would be 900,000 M. The latter works better, IMO)

Goku
---> SSG 100,000 M (really low, but Goku and Vegeta have to be relative to each other, and considering that whole 1/10th of SSB and that Hit could easily beat it while being stated to be weaker than SS Goku... )
---> SSB 1Billion

//Disregarding the percentage comment, then:
Goku
-->SSG: 500,000 M
-->SSB: 5 Billions

Vegeta
--->SSB 4,975 Billions

FT arc

Spoiler:

Goku: 210 M (somewhat stronger than before as stated in the manga)
--->SS2: 21,000 M
--->SS3: 84,000 M

Trunks: 220 M
---> SS2: 22,000 M
---> FP: 84,000 M

-----------------------------------
1st trip to the future
-----------------------------------

(The following is a mess, SS3 Goku, SS2-3 Trunks and Base Black were relative to each other with Black being on top, then SS Vegeta beats base and SS Black who got no ss boost at all although Trunks said he was strongest than ever in that form, the numbers don’t add up. Vegeta would need to be inexplicably 30x stronger than Goku, which wasn’t even the case back in the saiyan arc. Unless you conveniently give Black the ss multiplier you feel like in order for it to make sense)

Vegeta: 230 M (somehow, he became much stronger than Goku although finishing the previous arc weaker)
--->FP SS2: 92,000 M
--->SSB: 5,75 Billion

Goku Black: 30,000 M (assuming he faced in base a SS2 Trunks that was not at full power for some reason)
---> SS: 90,000 M (Trunks said his form was now stronger than ever, 3x boost because it doesn’t work any other way)
---> post-zenkai SS: 6 Billion (he even defeated Vegeta after he had a senzu, stamina loss wasn’t the issue)
---> SSRose: 6,25 Billions (Again, the multiplier for Black doesn't seem to follow any logic, he should've killed everyone with his finger)

Future Zamasu: 10,500 M


---------------------------------------
2nd trip to the future

---------------------------------------


Black Rose: 6,25 Billions

Post ROSAT Vegeta: 260 M
--> SSG-B switch: 6,5 Billions

Goku: 220 M
--> SSG: 550,000 M (hardly any progress from the first trip to the second, he just learned the mafuba)
--->SSB vs MZ: 5,500 Billions
--->MSSB: 11 Billions (fought evenly with MZ and was actually clouding his mind, and almost hakai'd him)

Merged Zamasu: 11 Billions

Vegito: 5 Billions ?? (don't know, doesn't really matter, probably around SSB Goku and Vegeta)
---> SSB: a lot stronger
---> SSB FKHH: equal to Beerus (this might just work, because while Vegito Blue not being on his level, we know super attacks at least double the users power, and the FKHH must amplify the power more than just twice)

All in all, I have to say there might be contradictions in this list but so has the manga, both anime and manga have serious power level issues. Anyway, input is welcomed.

[Koitsukai]

ToP manga

Spoiler:

------------------------
U6
-----------------------
Frost: 10,000 M

Kyabbe 250 M
--->SS: 12,500 M

Caulifla 300 M
---> SS 15,000 M

Kale 20,000 M(stronger than SS Caulifla according to Freeza)
---> SS 2,5 Billions
---> FPSS 5 Billions
---> drained SS: 10,000 M (not enough to face the Pride Troopers)

SS Kefla: 14,5 Billions

Hit: 12 Billions
---> FP 14 Billions

--------------
U7
--------------
Goku 300 M
--->SS: 15,000 M
--->MSSB: 15 B
--->Kaioken-ish MSSB: 25 B (maybe less)

Vegeta 300 M
--->MSSB: 15 B

Gohan: 14,5 B

Freeza: 12,000 M (weaker than SS Caulifla and stronger than Frost but who knows about that one)
--->Golden Freeza: 6 B (I'm buying his bluff regarding Kale)

Android 17: 120,000M (at least that, which would be SS3 Goku's power level)

Android 18: 1,000 M (hard to measure, but I put her like 5x stronger than I have her back in the Cell saga)

Piccolo: 7,000 M

Tenshinhan: his best Z self
Roshi: 200-ish
Krilin: his best Z self

-----------------------------------------------
popurri of universes
-----------------------------------------------
Aniraza: much less than Kale's 5 Billions
Trio of Danger: 8,000 M altogether(enough to overpower Piccolo), on their own much lower (enough to lose to Piccolo)
Ribbriane and co: 800-1,000 M (relative to 18)

--------------------------
U11
---------------------------
Pride Troopers: 12,000 M (enough to overpower drained Kale but not enough to defeat SS Goku)

Dyspo: at least 120,000 M (he was too much for SS2 Goku but fought off-screen for a long time with 17 with no clear victor)

Toppo: 10 B
---> FP(god ki) 14, 9 B (he seemed in worse condition than Vegeta)
---> injured after Vegeta's evolution: 10,000 M(enough to be at the mercy of FF Freeza)
---------------------------
main fighters
-------------------------

Super MSSB Vegeta (yeah, super mastered super saiyan god super saiyan): 30 B

Goku
----> Omen: 50 B
----> MUI: 75 B

Jiren (supressed): 40 B
----> Powered up vs Omen: 50 B
----> FP: 60 B
----> Final power up: 75 B (gradual growth)
----> after fighting MUI: ????

Main Hakaishin
Belmod: 55 Billions
Beerus: ???? more than 55 B
Quitela: ???? more than 55 B

[p-hyvo]

After reading the manga, I'm doing a Buu saga PL list, also including the Cell Games for reference.

Cell Games

Spoiler:

Son Goku: 65 M
--> SS: 3,250 M
--> tired SS: 2,500 M

Son Gohan: 70 M
--> SS....3,500 M
--> SS 2... 7,000 M

Vegeta: 50 M
---> SS: 2,500 M

Trunks: 45 M
---> SS: 2,000 M

Piccolo: 1,800 M

Cell Jr: 2,800 M

Perfect Cell
--> vs Goku: 3,300 M
---> vs Gohan (senzu): 3,700 M
---> Full power: 4,800 M
---> Super Perfect: 6,500 M

Buu saga

Spoiler:

Son Goku: 75 M
--> SS: 3,750 M
--> SS2: 7,500 M
--> SS3: 30,000 M

Son Gohan: 65 M (I have him like Goku at the Cell Games, considering he stalemated with Dabura, compared to Cell)
--> SS....3,250 M
--> SS 2... 6,500 M

Vegeta: 70 M (like Gohan during the Cell Games)
---> SS: 3,500 M
---> SS2: 7,000 M
---> Majin SS2: 7,500 M

Goten & Trunks: 39 M & 40 M
---> SS: 1,950 M & 2,000 M

Piccolo: 2,500 M (fuck it, I'll let him be stronger than Goten and Trunks, and even Shin)

Shin: 3,000 M (I have him around Cell Games SS Goku)
Kibito: 200 M (he will trade blows with Zamasu, so he can't be weaker than Namek Freeza)

Pui Pui: 80,000 (I'm being good here, stronger than most of the Ginyu Force)
Yakon: 60-70 M
Dabura: 3,250 M (Gohan got weaker and fought as SS a Cell-like character, so I give Dabura something like Perfect Cell)

Fat Buu 6,000 M (Gohan said that if he got his rage out aka SS2, he'd beat him)
---> angry vs Dabura: 7,000 M (Gohan said they had no chance)
---> angry vs Vegeta: 8,000 M (Krilin said he kept getting stronger)
----> vs SS3 Goku: 25,000 M(this one is kind of a mess, so input is welcomed)
---> angry when they Satan gets shot: 30,000 M (this is a guess, really)
---> evil Grey Buu: 18,000 M
---> good Buu: 12,000 M


Gotenks: 127 M
--> SS: 6,350 M (I know, how could he fight Super Buu? but to match him or surpassing as SS3 he needs that as SS)
---> SS3: 50,800 M

Super Buu: 50,000 M
--> Buuccolo: 52,500 M
---> Buutenks: 103,300 M
----> Buuhan: 112,000 M
-----> enraged Buuhan: 120,000 M
----> South Buu: 55,000 M

Awakened Gohan: 60,000 M

Vegito 40,000 M (manga, that is)
--> Super Vegito: 200,000 M

Kid Buu: 30,000 M

Thoughts? critiques?

Well, they are too low sincerely.
By that time, with an organic progression of the scaling all th base saiyans are well above namek freezer by the buu saga.
The thing that base Goten and trunks could fight with 18 with her don't holding back (really, She wanted to win so She does'nt have any reason to hold back, and i won't hear to anything against that because this is too blatant ), and Goten being not the least inferior to Gohan (stated in daizenshuu) , that makes me understand that toriyama really intended base saiyans to surpass freezer in base by the cell games .
18>=buu saga base Gohan>=buu saga baseTrunks>=buu saga base goten
And huh, adulti saiyans are obviously even more powerful, considering that :
Base gotenks is presented in a way that flat out screams he's stronger than ssj Goten and trunks together
Daizenshuu , by the working used in the gotenks paragraph , Tells us that ssj gotenks before the rosat training Is still inferior to ssj2 vegeta
Also, buu saga seems to show how toriyama intended Goku and vegeta ti be even stronger than Shin , somoene already stronger than piccolo, in base at that point. In less words, base Goku and vegeta in the buu saga are no doubt stronger than their ssj counterparts at the Cell games considering that Cell games piccolo was low ssj tier, buu saga piccolo Is stronger than that, Shin Is even stronger but still base Goku and vegeta ere even more.


Hope to had been useful to you

[p-hyvo]

Also, in the manga Is never implied anywhere that base beginning of super Goku Is weaker than namek freezer.
Beerus Just taunts Goku by saying " well, no Surprise that you were alle to beat freezer, but this seems to be the extent of your Power" and makes no comments about base Goku whatsoever .
He Just told that obviously ssj2 goku could easily defeat freezer, but we did'nt Need someone to tell this to know it.

[Grand Marshal 1]

I did it once before but it was incomplete. So now I sat down and converged all possible sources into making this relatively small power scale.

A power scale which imo is pretty solid and I can continue expanding on it if requested (probably will do anyway lol).

It's about Super Dragon Ball Heroes. The xenos of the Dark Empire Mission! I created this power scale explaining how the xenos started with their strength and what power ups they had in order to reach the level we saw at the Prison Planet Saga (in comparison to CC/post ToP individuals). Here it is my power scale!

BTW, there is no such thing as definitive multipliers, I used the Manga of the missions to gauge the characters, pieced up some stuff with the game dialogues and even checked the special episode from the anime. Before you make the notice, no it doesn't matter if XDabura got defeated by Base XVegeta in the game or by Super XGoten in the Manga (an example) cause his level of power I chose allows for both to be the case. Maybe a composite scale? Also, last but not least GoD Trunks is a special character cause he has resistance against Mechikaboola and his normal power that comes from SSG is significantly multiplied because the plot dictates it. Here we go:

Spoiler:

Early Bases

XGoku/XVegeta = 3×XTrunks <= SD saga Vegeta/Goku

XGohan = 1.2×XTrunks <= SD saga Gohan

XTrunks = XGoten ≈ SD saga Trunks/Goten (the only instance where they might be stronger than their GT counterparts, also this Trunks was intiatilly FTrunks from another time line, so by default he is as strong if not stronger by SD Saga data)

Post-training

XGoku (post powerups and training) = 80×XGoku (Pre) = 240×XTrunks (pre-training) = XVegeta (as summoned)

XGohan (post power-ups) = 40×XGohan (Pre) = 48×XTrunks

XTrunks/XGoten (post training) = 40×XTrunks (Pre)

>

XGoku/XVegeta = 6×XTrunks (Post)

XGohan = 1.2×XTrunks

XGoten/XTrunks = 1×

Post-powerup

XGoku/XVegeta (Prison Planet/Demigra Assault Saga) = 2×XGoku/XVegeta (Peak) = 6×XTrunks (Demigra Assault)

XGohan (Demigra Assault) = 3.4×XGohan (Peak) = 2×XTrunks (Demigra Assault)

XTrunks/XGoten (Demigra Assault) = 2×XTrunks/XGoten (Peak)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

~FINAL VERDICT~

Chronoa = 0.02×XTrunks
-Power of Time Unleashed = ?
-Brainwashed Base = ?
-Brainwashed Power of Darkness = ?

XVegito/XGogeta = 450×XTrunks
XVegeks = 350×XTrunks
XGohanks = 250×XTrunks
XGotenks = 150×XTrunks

XKing Vegeta/Masked King = 9×XTrunks
Dark Evolution = 18×XTrunks

XBroly (Base) = 3×XTrunks
-w/Dark DB absorbed = 1.2×XBroly = 3.5×XTrunks

XGoku/XVegeta = 3×XTrunks
XGohan = 2×XTrunks
XGoten/XTrunks = 1×Base

XBardock = 0.05×XTrunks
-w/Mask = 0.06×XTrunks
XParagus = 0.05×XTrunks
XPan = 0.01×XTrunks

~Super Saiyan~

XGoku/XVegeta = 150×XTrunks
XGohan = 100×XTrunks
XGoten/XTrunks = 50×Base
XBardock = 3×XTrunks

XVegito/XGogeta = 22,500×XTrunks
XVegeks = 17,500×XTrunks
XGohanks = 12,500×XTrunks
XGotenks = 7,500×XTrunks

~Super Saiyan 2~

XGoku/XVegeta = 300×XTrunks
XGohan = 200×XTrunks
XGoten/XTrunks = 100×Base

XVegito/XGogeta = 45,000×XTrunks
XVegeks = 35,000×XTrunks
XGohanks = 25,000×XTrunks
XGotenks = 15,000×XTrunks

~Super Saiyan 3~

XGoku/XVegeta = 1,200×XTrunks
XGohan = 800×XTrunks
XTrunks = 400×Base
XBardock = 24×XTrunks

XVegito/XGogeta = 180,000×XTrunks
XVegeks = 140,000×XTrunks
XGohanks = 100,000×XTrunks
XGotenks = 60,000×XTrunks

~Potential Unleashed/Ultimate~

XGohan = 1,000×XTrunks
XGoten = 500×XTrunks

Disclaimer: unless these 2 power up to the very limit or build up their power to break through their peak strength, the multipliers won't work. Only at full power can they exert this kind of strength. So in the case with the Xeno Shadow Dragons, they haven't powered up enough to face the relatively weak enemies and are roughly in base level of power. Could also be due to them suppressing their strength.

~Super Saiyan 4~

XBroly = 14,000×XTrunks

XGoku/XVegeta = 12,000×XTrunks
-Kaio Ken (Goku)??? = 24,000×XTrunks
XGohan = 8,000×XTrunks
XBardock = 240×XTrunks

XVegito/XGogeta = 1,800,000×XTrunks
-Kaio Ken (Gogeta) = 3,600,000×XTrunks

~Super Saiyan God~

XTrunks = 12,500×Base
-With the Key of Time = 500,000×Base (depends on how he uses it to tank darkness attacks from his enemies, which is why he can push back Mechikaboola, but not easily destroy Fin in his final form)

~Demons~

Mechikaboola (Elder) = 20,000×XTrunks
-Youth Restored/Perfect state = 1,000,000×XTrunks
-Dark King/Power of Time Unleashed = 2,000,000×XTrunks
-Severely weakened = 750,000×XTrunks

Demigra (Base) = 10×XTrunks
-Demon God = 750×XTrunks
-Giant/True Demon God-Final Form = 7,500×XTrunks
-Trancended Demon God/Makyouka = 150,000×XTrunks

Towa/Putine = XTrunks
-1st form God Towa/Putine = 75×XTrunks
-2nd form God Towa/Putine = 225×XTrunks

XDabura = 1.25×XTrunks
-God XDabura = roughly 90×XTrunks
-2nd form God XDabura = 270×XTrunks

Gravy = 1.1×XTrunks
-1st form God Gravy = 80×XTrunks
-2nd form God Gravy = 240×XTrunks

Mira = 15×XTrunks
-Rampaging = 30×XTrunks
-Super = 150×XTrunks
-Fin Absorbed = 1,500×XTrunks
-Final (Towa Absorbed) = 13,000×XTrunks

Salsa = 1.2×XTrunks
-1st form God Salsa = 90×XTrunks
-2nd form God Salsa = 270×XTrunks
-True Demon God = 2,700×XTrunks

Shroom = 2×XTrunks
-1st form God Shroom = 150×XTrunks
-2nd form God Shroom = 450×XTrunks
-True Demon God = 4,500×XTrunks

Chamel = 1.05×XTrunks
-1st form God Chamel = roughly 80×XTrunks
-2nd form God Chamel = 240×XTrunks

Robelu = 50×XTrunks
-True power = 100×XTrunks

Fin = 500×XTrunks
-(SS4 Gogeta absorbed) 'Dark Gogeta' = 25,000×XTrunks
-(Ultimate Evolution/Xeno Shadow Dragons and other villains absorbed) = 100,000×XTrunks

~Xeno Enemies~

XKid Buu = 60×XGoku/XVegeta
-Demon God XBuu = 150×XTrunks
-(Janemba absorbed) = 350×XTrunks

Janemba (Super) = 125×XTrunks
-w/Dark DB = 1.2×Janemba (Super) = 150×XTrunks
-XJanemba (Reaper Absorbed/Enhanced with Dark Energy) = 200×XTrunks

Perfect XCell = 1.15×XTrunks
-Enhanced with Dark Energy = 115×XTrunks

Lord Slug (Giant Form) = 0.03×XTrunks
-w/Dark DB = 10×Giant Form = 0.3×XTrunks
-Enhanced with Dark Energy = 100×XTrunks

XTurles (Base w/out Dark DB) = 2×XTrunks
-w/Dark DB = 6×XTrunks
-Fruit of the Tree of Might Consumed/Rampage = 90×XTrunks

Reaper = 50×XTrunks

XFreeza = 4×XTrunks
-100% = 8×XTrunks

~Shadow Dragons~

Super XYi Xing Long = 1,000×XTrunks
-XYi Xing Long = 100×XTrunks
-Demon God/Makyuka Empowerment XYi Xing Long = 5×Super XYi Xing Long = 112,000×XTrunks

Omega Shenron (GT) = 750×XTrunks

XSi Xing Long = 60×XTrunks

XSan Xing Long = 50×XTrunks

XQi Xing Long = 40×XTrunks

XLiu Xing Long = 30×XTrunks

XWu Xing Ling = 1.5×XTrunks

XLiang Xing Long = 1.25×XTrunks

I can make a list with CC characters and their enemies to compare post-ToP characters to this scale (they are quite stronger tho due to more impressive forms, however I generally receive Ultimate Godslayer Hearts = Power of Time Unleashed Mechikaboola, Xeno Vegito and Xeno Gogeta as SS4 = CC Gogeta and Vegito as Blue and subsequently XGoku SS4 = CC Goku Blue.

BTW, fusions = 150×Base of either fusee

[Noah]

How would you guys measure the battle power of these characters based on that Super Saiyan 3 Goku = 1

- Super Boo
- Bootenks
- Booccolo
- Boohan

[Koitsukai]

How would you guys measure the battle power of these characters based on that Super Saiyan 3 Goku = 1

- Super Boo
- Bootenks
- Booccolo
- Boohan

SS3 Goku = 1
Super Buu = 3
Buuccolo = 3,2
Buutenks = 5
Buuhan = 7

[Grand Marshal 1]

How would you guys measure the battle power of these characters based on that Super Saiyan 3 Goku = 1

- Super Boo
- Bootenks
- Booccolo
- Boohan

SS3 Goku = 1
Super Buu = 3
Buuccolo = 3,2
Buutenks = 5
Buuhan = 7

Seems legit. I can't disagree. Let's spice it up a little shall we?

- SS3 Gotenks
- Ultimate Gohan
- Hirudegarn (1st Form)
- Hirudegarn (2nd Form)
- Fat Janemba
- Super Janemba
- Rilldo
- Hyper Mega Rilldo
- Metal Rilldo
- Majuub
- Kid Buu
- FP SS3 Goku (the one that he never reached in the Buu Saga)
- Super Mega Cannon Sigma
- 3rd Level Luud
- SS2 Enraged Vegeta (Buu Saga)
- SS4 Goku (Buu Saga)
- DBS Broly (same scaling, but in the Buu Saga, Base)
- DBS Broly (Wrathful 1)
- DBS Broly (Wrathful 2)
- Goku Black (full power Base, but for the Buu Saga)

I hope you understand what I mean with 'Buu saga' for some characters. Just the way they scaled in the show (black > SS3 at the FT Arc) but compared with a Buu Saga SS3.

[Koitsukai]

How would you guys measure the battle power of these characters based on that Super Saiyan 3 Goku = 1

- Super Boo
- Bootenks
- Booccolo
- Boohan

SS3 Goku = 1
Super Buu = 3
Buuccolo = 3,2
Buutenks = 5
Buuhan = 7

Seems legit. I can't disagree. Let's spice it up a little shall we?

- SS3 Gotenks
- Ultimate Gohan
- Hirudegarn (1st Form)
- Hirudegarn (2nd Form)
- Fat Janemba
- Super Janemba
- Rilldo
- Hyper Mega Rilldo
- Metal Rilldo
- Majuub
- Kid Buu
- FP SS3 Goku (the one that he never reached in the Buu Saga)
- Super Mega Cannon Sigma
- 3rd Level Luud
- SS2 Enraged Vegeta (Buu Saga)
- SS4 Goku (Buu Saga)
- DBS Broly (same scaling, but in the Buu Saga, Base)
- DBS Broly (Wrathful 1)
- DBS Broly (Wrathful 2)
- Goku Black (full power Base, but for the Buu Saga)

I hope you understand what I mean with 'Buu saga' for some characters. Just the way they scaled in the show (black > SS3 at the FT Arc) but compared with a Buu Saga SS3.

SS3 Goku = 1
Super Buu = 3
Buuccolo = 3,25
Buutenks = 6
Buuhan = 8
- SS3 Gotenks = 3
- Ultimate Gohan = 4,5
- Hirudegarn (1st Form) = 4 (he sent Ultimate Gohan flying but lost to Gotenks )
- Hirudegarn (2nd Form) = 5 (he did one-shot Gotenks although lost to SS3 Goku )
- Fat Janemba = 0,5 (weaker than SS3)
- Super Janemba= 3 (not that much stronger than SS3)
- Rilldo = 0,8 (I think he was compared to Mr Buu, the only Buu Trunks and Pan knew)
- Hyper Mega Rilldo = 2,5
- Metal Rilldo = 3
- Majuub = 4 (Mr Buu + Kid Buu-ish + his own progress + plot)
- Kid Buu =1
- FP SS3 Goku (the one that he never reached in the Buu Saga)= 2
- Super Mega Cannon Sigma= 0,7 (wasted by base Goku)
- 3rd Level Luud = 0,7 (can't recall much about it but wasn't he killed by base saiyans?)
- SS2 Enraged Vegeta (Buu Saga) = 5 (he is pretty much the same in BoG, but probably he outperformed Ultimate Gohan due to Gohan being weaker than in the Buu arc, so at least should be a 2)
- SS4 Goku (Buu Saga) = 10 (that form equals to Super Vegito according to GT guides)

(the manga has no crazy bases like the anime)
- DBS Broly (same scaling, but in the Buu Saga, Base) = 5 for the manga / over 10 for the anime (he should have the same power in the Buu arc considering he's stuck in a forgotten planet with nothing to do)
- DBS Broly (Wrathful 1) = 15 (he beats SSG)
- DBS Broly (Wrathful 2) = 18 (he fights SSB)
- Goku Black (full power Base, but for the Buu Saga) = technically he is from the Buu saga, in the future timeline Buu happened a year ago or so.

[Grand Marshal 1]

SS3 Goku = 1
Super Buu = 3
Buuccolo = 3,2
Buutenks = 5
Buuhan = 7

Seems legit. I can't disagree. Let's spice it up a little shall we?

- SS3 Gotenks
- Ultimate Gohan
- Hirudegarn (1st Form)
- Hirudegarn (2nd Form)
- Fat Janemba
- Super Janemba
- Rilldo
- Hyper Mega Rilldo
- Metal Rilldo
- Majuub
- Kid Buu
- FP SS3 Goku (the one that he never reached in the Buu Saga)
- Super Mega Cannon Sigma
- 3rd Level Luud
- SS2 Enraged Vegeta (Buu Saga)
- SS4 Goku (Buu Saga)
- DBS Broly (same scaling, but in the Buu Saga, Base)
- DBS Broly (Wrathful 1)
- DBS Broly (Wrathful 2)
- Goku Black (full power Base, but for the Buu Saga)

I hope you understand what I mean with 'Buu saga' for some characters. Just the way they scaled in the show (black > SS3 at the FT Arc) but compared with a Buu Saga SS3.

SS3 Goku = 1
Super Buu = 3
Buuccolo = 3,25
Buutenks = 6
Buuhan = 8
- SS3 Gotenks = 3
- Ultimate Gohan = 4,5
- Hirudegarn (1st Form) = 4 (he sent Ultimate Gohan flying but lost to Gotenks )
- Hirudegarn (2nd Form) = 5 (he did one-shot Gotenks although lost to SS3 Goku )
- Fat Janemba = 0,5 (weaker than SS3)
- Super Janemba= 3 (not that much stronger than SS3)
- Rilldo = 0,8 (I think he was compared to Mr Buu, the only Buu Trunks and Pan knew)
- Hyper Mega Rilldo = 2,5
- Metal Rilldo = 3
- Majuub = 4 (Mr Buu + Kid Buu-ish + his own progress + plot)
- Kid Buu =1
- FP SS3 Goku (the one that he never reached in the Buu Saga)= 2
- Super Mega Cannon Sigma= 0,7 (wasted by base Goku)
- 3rd Level Luud = 0,7 (can't recall much about it but wasn't he killed by base saiyans?)
- SS2 Enraged Vegeta (Buu Saga) = 5 (he is pretty much the same in BoG, but probably he outperformed Ultimate Gohan due to Gohan being weaker than in the Buu arc, so at least should be a 2)
- SS4 Goku (Buu Saga) = 10 (that form equals to Super Vegito according to GT guides)

(the manga has no crazy bases like the anime)
- DBS Broly (same scaling, but in the Buu Saga, Base) = 5 for the manga / over 10 for the anime (he should have the same power in the Buu arc considering he's stuck in a forgotten planet with nothing to do)
- DBS Broly (Wrathful 1) = 15 (he beats SSG)
- DBS Broly (Wrathful 2) = 18 (he fights SSB)
- Goku Black (full power Base, but for the Buu Saga) = technically he is from the Buu saga, in the future timeline Buu happened a year ago or so.

You are kinda correct tbh. Black is in the Future Buu Saga lol. Such a short lived time line....

Although the Buu Saga in the future is like way later, since the android Saga lasted from when Gohan was a kid until he turned adult

[Mad Swami]

Seems legit. I can't disagree. Let's spice it up a little shall we?

- SS3 Gotenks
- Ultimate Gohan
- Hirudegarn (1st Form)
- Hirudegarn (2nd Form)
- Fat Janemba
- Super Janemba
- Rilldo
- Hyper Mega Rilldo
- Metal Rilldo
- Majuub
- Kid Buu
- FP SS3 Goku (the one that he never reached in the Buu Saga)
- Super Mega Cannon Sigma
- 3rd Level Luud
- SS2 Enraged Vegeta (Buu Saga)
- SS4 Goku (Buu Saga)
- DBS Broly (same scaling, but in the Buu Saga, Base)
- DBS Broly (Wrathful 1)
- DBS Broly (Wrathful 2)
- Goku Black (full power Base, but for the Buu Saga)

I hope you understand what I mean with 'Buu saga' for some characters. Just the way they scaled in the show (black > SS3 at the FT Arc) but compared with a Buu Saga SS3.

SS3 Goku = 1
Super Buu = 3
Buuccolo = 3,25
Buutenks = 6
Buuhan = 8
- SS3 Gotenks = 3
- Ultimate Gohan = 4,5
- Hirudegarn (1st Form) = 4 (he sent Ultimate Gohan flying but lost to Gotenks )
- Hirudegarn (2nd Form) = 5 (he did one-shot Gotenks although lost to SS3 Goku )
- Fat Janemba = 0,5 (weaker than SS3)
- Super Janemba= 3 (not that much stronger than SS3)
- Rilldo = 0,8 (I think he was compared to Mr Buu, the only Buu Trunks and Pan knew)
- Hyper Mega Rilldo = 2,5
- Metal Rilldo = 3
- Majuub = 4 (Mr Buu + Kid Buu-ish + his own progress + plot)
- Kid Buu =1
- FP SS3 Goku (the one that he never reached in the Buu Saga)= 2
- Super Mega Cannon Sigma= 0,7 (wasted by base Goku)
- 3rd Level Luud = 0,7 (can't recall much about it but wasn't he killed by base saiyans?)
- SS2 Enraged Vegeta (Buu Saga) = 5 (he is pretty much the same in BoG, but probably he outperformed Ultimate Gohan due to Gohan being weaker than in the Buu arc, so at least should be a 2)
- SS4 Goku (Buu Saga) = 10 (that form equals to Super Vegito according to GT guides)

(the manga has no crazy bases like the anime)
- DBS Broly (same scaling, but in the Buu Saga, Base) = 5 for the manga / over 10 for the anime (he should have the same power in the Buu arc considering he's stuck in a forgotten planet with nothing to do)
- DBS Broly (Wrathful 1) = 15 (he beats SSG)
- DBS Broly (Wrathful 2) = 18 (he fights SSB)
- Goku Black (full power Base, but for the Buu Saga) = technically he is from the Buu saga, in the future timeline Buu happened a year ago or so.

You are kinda correct tbh. Black is in the Future Buu Saga lol. Such a short lived time line....

Although the Buu Saga in the future is like way later, since the android Saga lasted from when Gohan was a kid until he turned adult

I agree Super Buu being 3X SSJ3 Goku. over 8x more is ridiculous if you ask me. Especially since being 2x stronger means a whole lot more then people realize

[Grand Marshal 1]

SS3 Goku = 1
Super Buu = 3
Buuccolo = 3,25
Buutenks = 6
Buuhan = 8
- SS3 Gotenks = 3
- Ultimate Gohan = 4,5
- Hirudegarn (1st Form) = 4 (he sent Ultimate Gohan flying but lost to Gotenks )
- Hirudegarn (2nd Form) = 5 (he did one-shot Gotenks although lost to SS3 Goku )
- Fat Janemba = 0,5 (weaker than SS3)
- Super Janemba= 3 (not that much stronger than SS3)
- Rilldo = 0,8 (I think he was compared to Mr Buu, the only Buu Trunks and Pan knew)
- Hyper Mega Rilldo = 2,5
- Metal Rilldo = 3
- Majuub = 4 (Mr Buu + Kid Buu-ish + his own progress + plot)
- Kid Buu =1
- FP SS3 Goku (the one that he never reached in the Buu Saga)= 2
- Super Mega Cannon Sigma= 0,7 (wasted by base Goku)
- 3rd Level Luud = 0,7 (can't recall much about it but wasn't he killed by base saiyans?)
- SS2 Enraged Vegeta (Buu Saga) = 5 (he is pretty much the same in BoG, but probably he outperformed Ultimate Gohan due to Gohan being weaker than in the Buu arc, so at least should be a 2)
- SS4 Goku (Buu Saga) = 10 (that form equals to Super Vegito according to GT guides)

(the manga has no crazy bases like the anime)
- DBS Broly (same scaling, but in the Buu Saga, Base) = 5 for the manga / over 10 for the anime (he should have the same power in the Buu arc considering he's stuck in a forgotten planet with nothing to do)
- DBS Broly (Wrathful 1) = 15 (he beats SSG)
- DBS Broly (Wrathful 2) = 18 (he fights SSB)
- Goku Black (full power Base, but for the Buu Saga) = technically he is from the Buu saga, in the future timeline Buu happened a year ago or so.

You are kinda correct tbh. Black is in the Future Buu Saga lol. Such a short lived time line....

Although the Buu Saga in the future is like way later, since the android Saga lasted from when Gohan was a kid until he turned adult

I agree Super Buu being 3X SSJ3 Goku. over 8x more is ridiculous if you ask me. Especially since being 2x stronger means a whole lot more then people realize

Agreed. Which is why I once scaled nearly all of GT without the classic "GoKu BEcAme 40p TimEs StroNger "

Koitsukai had his piece of info thrown into it as well. And you know? It worked out!

If base Goku can defeat someone many times stronger without getting SS tho, it's the plot demanding it. We can't accurately scale these instances. Just let it be like that. Other times tho, yes, a difference less than 2 times can change the course of the battle.

We shouldn't overthink some stuff is what I'm saying.

[Mad Swami]

You are kinda correct tbh. Black is in the Future Buu Saga lol. Such a short lived time line....

Although the Buu Saga in the future is like way later, since the android Saga lasted from when Gohan was a kid until he turned adult

I agree Super Buu being 3X SSJ3 Goku. over 8x more is ridiculous if you ask me. Especially since being 2x stronger means a whole lot more then people realize

Agreed. Which is why I once scaled nearly all of GT without the classic "GoKu BEcAme 40p TimEs StroNger "

Koitsukai had his piece of info thrown into it as well. And you know? It worked out!

If base Goku can defeat someone many times stronger without getting SS tho, it's the plot demanding it. We can't accurately scale these instances. Just let it be like that. Other times tho, yes, a difference less than 2 times can change the course of the battle.

We shouldn't overthink some stuff is what I'm saying.

I posted my power levels earlier in the thread. What do you think about Buu saga Goku being like 64M and Super Buu being 75B