Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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ZombieVito
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Jul 01, 2021 2:48 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 9:14 pm Just trying my hand at some scaling with the DBS anime.

<SNIP>
I have some issues with the list but mainly I'm surprised you put Piccolo that high on the ToP.

How do you explain base Goku surviving Piccolo's explosive attack though?

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Jul 02, 2021 12:44 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 5:53 pm (A incredible well-written post.)
I’m really glad we have you around here. Despite being your theory, I think it makes sense that power levels can have these particularities, which may explain some of our own issues with how the numbers clash with each other.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:13 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:30 pm Power Levels: A Modest Proposal
Okay. Now I was finally able to read all of your analysis through each DB arc. And I must say, this is quite a fantastic job!

It's really a nice theory that shows how power levels could work in the context of OG DB, and you managed to explain it quite splendidly.

The only thing I'm not sure about is Tien being above Kami in BoZ. I always thought that Tien and the other earthlings were all supposed to be weaker than Kami and Mr. Popo. Even back in the 23rd Budokai, Shen (Kami in disguise) was portrayed as "far surpassing any level ordinarily conceivable", which makes me believe Kami and Mr. Popo (as well as obviously Goku and Piccolo) were so far above Tien that only training with Kami and Mr. Popo would have make him surpass them (even if Tien trained for 5 years, it still doesn't seem like he surpassed any of them, it's possible that he would become closer to their level, but not surpassing them).

Still, I really enjoyed reading all of this throughout.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Sat Jul 03, 2021 4:55 pm

Thanks both! I very much appreciate the positive feedback, it's very kind. I'm glad to see the theory getting a positive reception overall (and a tad relieved!).
dragonball0900 wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:13 pmThe only thing I'm not sure about is Tien being above Kami in BoZ.
I agree - I didn't like it when I first did it, and on reflection I like it even less. So I think I'll use the handy-dandy official '400' that's floating around in the Movie Pamphlet for Kami's maximum instead, and use the '220' for "Shen" as his resting level BP. This'll extend Kami over Goku and Piccolo Daimao in the first instance, and over everyone else at the Budokai.

So, here are some revisions (mostly tweaks resulting from the helpful discussions with dragonball0900 - thanks again!), with notes - these replace the reckonings given in my original post:

The Modest Proposal: Revisions

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:32 pm

Seems to me like you're underrating Chi Chi a bit. She got through the preliminaries, Goku deemed her attacks worthy of being dodged/blocked (instead of tanked), she impressed Kame-sennin and wasn't knocked out by Goku's attack (which was a little bit more strenuous than Kame-sennin's handwave against Yamcha in the 21st Budokai).

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Sun Jul 04, 2021 6:20 am

Yuji wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:32 pm Seems to me like you're underrating Chi Chi a bit. She got through the preliminaries, Goku deemed her attacks worthy of being dodged/blocked (instead of tanked), she impressed Kame-sennin and wasn't knocked out by Goku's attack (which was a little bit more strenuous than Kame-sennin's handwave against Yamcha in the 21st Budokai).
Thanks for the feedback! It's entirely possible that I am (I am, after all, somewhat arbitrarily appropriating an official BP to do something it wasn't written to do, rather than doing a recalculation from scratch, as would be more appropriate); however, taking your points one by one, I still don't think I see anything from Chi Chi that necessarily takes her out far beyond the 21st Budokai level:
  • She gets through the preliminaries easily, but so have all of the Dragon Team from the 21st Budokai onwards (except Chaozu and Yajirobe, who meet super-strong, named opponents) - putting her on the level of the 21st Budokai Kame School group seems plenty to satisfy the idea that she gets through the rest of the field without trouble.
  • What Goku chooses to do is a risky thing for power-scaling conclusions, as it's pretty arbitrary. The last time (up to this point) that I think we've seen him deliberately tank an attack without any damage is from Son Gohan (he tanks from Tao, too, but that causes visible damage). Again, it's just opinions at this point, but I really don't see Chi Chi being on Son Gohan's level; even Chapa, who narratively clearly is meant to be around that level, prompts blocks and dodges from an even stronger Goku, both of the times they meet (so strictly speaking, he shouldn't need to dodge or block him either, but he does). I don't feel it adds up to much. You could go either way.
  • Kame-Sen'nin was impressed by General Blue as well, and Chi Chi is more powerful than him by this reckoning. She's also beyond Gyuu Mao (a Kame-School disciple), and by extension up at the limits of the 'Human Wall' (specifically, she rivals Goku and Roshi himself from that time, by this reckoning, and there'd only be a handful of Humans beyond her in the whole world who aren't longstanding members of the Dragon Team). Given that at this point Roshi doesn't know who she is, all that is pretty impressive for a nobody, and seems like plenty for what she achieves.
  • As for taking Goku's attack - just like he's a lot beyond Roshi (and he is also holding back when he does it), all she has to be is a lot beyond Yamcha from that time, and she is, by this reckoning (about 3 times as powerful, overall).
I don't want to be dogmatic on this, to be sure, and I guess you could place her higher - somewhere in the huge escalation between the 21st and 22nd Budokai, perhaps (there's a huge gap between the level of the 21st Budokai and Tao Pai Pai, where she could fit without any difficulty). One could also make a case for her being an outlier of some sort, in the way that (for instance) Yajirobe is. But as I've said, I don't think it's a necessary conclusion from what we have, and there's part of me that feels like, in a competition where Goku goes on to fight his ultimate foe from the 22nd Budokai, on the way to the Final with his current ultimate foe, which establishes the true level that the 23rd Budokai is on, it would be narratively fitting to have someone in the mix who embodies the general sort of level that the 21st Budokai was on.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:16 pm

Whis once said that Vados is somewhat stronger than him, proving that angels are not all in line in a matter of power. How would you rank the angels by power? (Not counting Daishinkan).
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dragonball0900 » Sun Jul 04, 2021 5:42 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 4:55 pm Thanks both! I very much appreciate the positive feedback, it's very kind. I'm glad to see the theory getting a positive reception overall (and a tad relieved!).
dragonball0900 wrote: Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:13 pmThe only thing I'm not sure about is Tien being above Kami in BoZ.
I agree - I didn't like it when I first did it, and on reflection I like it even less. So I think I'll use the handy-dandy official '400' that's floating around in the Movie Pamphlet for Kami's maximum instead, and use the '220' for "Shen" as his resting level BP. This'll extend Kami over Goku and Piccolo Daimao in the first instance, and over everyone else at the Budokai.

So, here are some revisions (mostly tweaks resulting from the helpful discussions with dragonball0900 - thanks again!), with notes - these replace the reckonings given in my original post:

The Modest Proposal: Revisions
Really good stuff here and there. The power levels fit a lot more nicely.

But I must wonder (and I know you have just recently lowered Cyborg Tao's level), wouldn't Cyborg Tao be above 22nd Budokai Tien in total power? It seems that Tsuru's confidence (he knows Tien's 22nd Budokai strength more than anyone else) and the way the story portrays the tense situation makes me believe that Cyborg Tao should be stronger than any 22nd Budokai participant, while at the same time still be the weakest of the 23rd Budokai's main 8 fighters, with the exception of Chi Chi.

As for Chi Chi, I do believe she should be at least stronger than King Chappa. Narrative wise and feat wise, she clearly seemed to be portrayed as a superior fighter compared to him, given how easily Goku one shotted Chappa, while it took him a little while to beat Chi Chi.

She also trained with the Ox King for years, so it should have been a similar style to Roshi's training boosts (Roshi did say Chi Chi's fighting style resembles his own). Power levels also consistently put her between around Tsuru's level, which fits well with her being far superior to King Chappa in strength, while at the same time still being fodder compared to the 23rd Budokai characters.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Mon Jul 05, 2021 3:36 pm

dragonball0900 wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 5:42 pmBut I must wonder (and I know you have just recently lowered Cyborg Tao's level), wouldn't Cyborg Tao be above 22nd Budokai Tien in total power? It seems that Tsuru's confidence (he knows Tien's 22nd Budokai strength more than anyone else) and the way the story portrays the tense situation makes me believe that Cyborg Tao should be stronger than any 22nd Budokai participant, while at the same time still be the weakest of the 23rd Budokai's main 8 fighters, with the exception of Chi Chi.
Hmm. This is a fair point well made (and I'm sure I'll tinker with characters like Tao repeatedly), but on the other hand, in the most obvious way Tao is beyond all of the 22nd Budokai participants: his BP of 210 is well beyond the 180 BP that Goku or Tenshinhan were able to muster, and it seems to me that Tsuru and Tao would be likely to see things in this one-dimensional, 'Bigger BP = Kill' fashion, particularly considering their single-minded focus on revenge, and the clearly-exposed delusions this has drawn them into this time around.

So one could argue that Tao doesn't strictly need to be beyond the Total Power of the 22nd Budokai participants. But then again, he could be. I'll think some more on it. Thanks again for the comments!

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Jul 08, 2021 6:29 pm

Ponta's analysis is fantastic. I might encounter some differences regarding how a certain character might rank, although I don't have DB as fresh as I would like it to be on my mind and I don't fundamentally disagree with anything on the charts, but I'm all for this take of how power and ki control work.
The resting power, the braced and full power, that's just great, and IIRC, actually I don't, I can't remember which episode or arc this happened, but I remember Krilin(I think) mentioning how strong somebody happened to be just at their resting power (of course, I'm not quoting him).

It's interesting because it's clear how much of a ki-shapeshifter Goku is and how Freeza has a resting power so high that he can rule the universe just by never flexing at all, with probably one of the lowest capacities.
I enjoyed how outclassed Goku was against Tao Pai Pai. Loved the 666 total power of Akkuman and how Raditz just breaks the scale with just raw battle power. Can't wait for the following arcs' analysis.

BTW, I'm stealing those images and saving them on my computer :thumbup: :thumbup:

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:59 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:30 pm Power Levels: A Modest Proposal
Amazing. This is more or less how I think the systems goes too, but logically I didn’t have things nearly as detailed as you do.

I think things kinda fall apart in the Saiyan Saga though. Why does Raditz only pick 3 different levels from Goku and Piccolo if they are capable of displaying 7? Shouldn’t Raditz at least pick a power up from their 408-416 selves.

This also goes to Kuririn. Shouldn’t that 206 at least be his “braced” level? Why’d he ask Bulma to register an arbitrary, suppressed level?
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Mon Jul 12, 2021 5:28 pm

Thanks both! The feedback's appreciated. And you're welcome to the images, Koitsukai :lol:
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:59 pmShouldn’t Raditz at least pick a power up from their 408-416 selves.
Thanks for your comments! Fundamentally, I guess this particular question boils down to the old 'If Goku and Piccolo have a BP range, how come Raditz doesn't read it?' argument. It's a fair question, to be sure; I figure the answer is simply that Scouters don't always read every change in Battle Power: for instance, there's no second Makankosappo reading in the Manga; Raditz's Scouter doesn't read the fact that Goku is still able to wield enough power to hold him even once he's been beaten up (or, indeed, the BP consequences of getting beaten up in the first place), etc., etc.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:59 pmThis also goes to Kuririn. Shouldn’t that 206 at least be his “braced” level? Why’d he ask Bulma to register an arbitrary, suppressed level?
This is an important question, which requires a clear answer - and that answer is that a "Resting" level, in this schema, is not a "Suppressed" level at all, but is simply the character's ordinary, natural power - the difference between "Resting" and "Braced" isn't that one is 'suppressed' and one isn't, but that one is the character's natural state, and the other is the product of the kind of exertion/geeing oneself up that comes with fighting seriously. So, in the example proffered, 206 is the BP read for Kuririn's "Resting" state, rather than his "Braced" state, because he's standing around not doing anything to his power one way or another - he isn't making an arbitrary choice, it's just what his power naturally 'looks like', when expressed as a numerical BP value.

Now, if Kuririn were to deliberately hold his power down in some way below his natural "Resting" state, this would be "Suppression", and this has some means of depiction, according to this schema (as do other means of wielding less power than the "Resting" State), which I guess I'll use the opportunity to crowbar in here:

The Modest Proposal: Suppression
So, in this diagram, we see three different means of using less power than one naturally has -
  • First, there's "Messing Around". This is totally arbitrary, because it's down to the arbitrary decision of the character concerned as to how much of their natural resting power they're choosing to wield. Form 4 Freeza is the really obvious example here, as he's almost perpetually Not Even Trying (e.g., fighting without using his hands, though I guess you could also point to his performance in Form 1 against Nail); while both his BP and Total Power index are really the same as his "Resting" State (his power hasn't gone anywhere, or anything, and a Scouter wouldn't pick up any difference either), it's just he's not really bothering to use what he's got naturally. This kind of thing is, like the "Resting" State, hard to use effectively in a fight (unsurprisingly), and often results in the user being free, open, even sloppy with their use of power. In the diagram, the whole '7854' of the total power is there, but only a fraction is used (and the general amount is specified). This isn't true Suppression.
  • Secondly, there's Suppression. This is basically the inverse of a "Braced" State - instead of shaping their total ki into a 'shape' that is more effectively wielded in battle, at the cost of extra exertion, the ki is shaped into something that is less effectively wielded in battle (the BP is held down), but which is exceptionally easy to maintain. One doesn't use this to fight with, but rather to conserve energy generally and surprise one's opponent (especially if they're using a Scouter), but a ki-sensing individual can tell there's more power there simply by directly sensing them - an example is the three Namekians who show up with a BP of 1000, though their true power is 3000. Kuririn can directly tell they're suppressing their power, and is surprised Freeza's goons can't tell. In the diagram, all the total power is there, again, but 'pressed down'.
  • Thirdly, there's Suppression and Concentration. This method takes the 'holding down' of power of the second diagram, but also concentrates the power strongly while holding down the power according to the BP axis, packing it into this smaller 'space': this results in a state where it's harder to detect the extra power a character has, and it also allows the power to surge immediately along the BP axis once one stops 'holding down' their power. This combines the benefits of energy conservation and a basically immediate power-up whenever one wants to use a lot more fighting power, as one is concentrating one's ki at the same time. The key example of this is Goku against the Ginyus - Kuririn only infers that he's stronger than them from his performance - he can't directly sense it, unlike with the Namekians, and Gohan mentions that Goku's ki seems a lot smaller than the Ginyus. In the diagram, all the 7854 Total Power is there, again, but it's compressed into an area that seems much smaller (hence the much smaller Total Power number given under that diagram).
So, according to this schema, this is what "Suppression" States look like, which are rather different to the "Resting" State. As we know, these can be controlled basically completely by the Earthlings, who are able to suppress their powers all the way down to zero, thus erasing their presence. I hope this further explanation has added a little to the explanation of how this schema represents both BP and Total Power, helped demonstrate the distinction between "Resting" and "Suppressed" States, and thereby explained why so many of the various Scouter readings in the Early Saiyan arc are here designated as "Resting" BPs.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sun Jul 18, 2021 4:57 pm

I'm really interested in a modest proposal of how the super Saiyan grades, God ki and migatte no gokui work.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:12 am

Koitsukai wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 4:57 pm I'm really interested in a modest proposal of how the super Saiyan grades, God ki and migatte no gokui work.
Grades I just give it a better multiplier than SSJ with deficiency in speed.
For example:
SSJ x50
Grade 1 x60 (15% speed loss)
Grand 2 x75 (50 % speed loss)
SSJ Mastered x50 + flat number relative to the mastery.

Something like this.

God Ki I have absolutely no idea. I don't think we even got a decent explanation in any medium since it's introduction.

Ultra Instinct I'm going off the manga and not the anime.
It's seems to be ultra efficiency to put it simply.
Goku dodges/moves better, does more damage to enemies by exploring openings and can sustain more damage by reacting/hardening his body correctly. His Ki quantity does not change, he doesn't become stronger that way.

I believe the above holds true until the ToP at least. Afterwards likely, however with the floating knowledge being feed about the tecnique with each passing chapter it's harder to parse.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by SoulSurj » Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:04 pm

Noah wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:44 pm What are you guys multipliers to:

SSJ2
SSJ3
Golden Oozaru
SSJ4
God
Blue
Ultra Instinct (?)
Base
Ssj/(Saiyan Beyond God)= 50×Base
Ssj 2= 100×Base
Ssj 3= 400×Base
God (without ritual)= 500×Base
God (with ritual)<= Blue
Blue (SBG×50)= 2,500×Base
Golden Oozaru= Over 3,200×Base
(Base Form Fusion >= Golden Oozaru)
Ssj 4 (10×Golden Oozaru)= Over 32,000×Base
Ultra Instinct= Unknown

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Mireya » Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:29 am

Battle Powers

Starting from Part 1


Hunt for the DBs

Pu'a : 2.5
Oolong :3
Bulma : 4

Yamcha : 9
Son Goku : 10

Gyumao : 15


Training with Kame-sennin

Lunch (good) : 4
-- Bad : 6.6

Kuririn : 8

Son Goku : 10

Kame-sennin : 20


21st Budokai


Orin Temple Bullies : 9.6

Yamcha : 12

Bacterian : 12.5

Giran : 14

Kuririn : 16

Namu : 19

Son Goku : 20

Kame-sennin [disguised as jackie chun] : 20

Oozaru Goku : [he was already a little tired] : 120

Kame-sennin maximum power kamehameha : 139


Red Ribbon arc

General White : 10

Colonel Silver : 11

Ninja Murasaki : 14

General Metallic : 18

Son Goku : 21

Android 8 [enraged] : 25



-------


Kuririn : 16

Pirate Robot : 17.5

General Blue : 18

Son Goku : 22


-------


Tao Pai Pai : 30
Son Goku [post karin's training] : 34

Karin : 57


Uranai Baba


Dracula Man : 10
Invisible Man : 11
Yamcha : 12
-- Rogafufuken : 13.5

Kuririn : 16

Mummy : 22

Akkuman : 26

Son Gohan : 33
Son Goku : 34


22nd Budokai

Chappa-o : 34

Chaozu : 38
Yamcha : 39
Kuririn : 40

Tsuru-sennin : 45

Kame-sennin : 53
Tenshinhan : 58
Son Goku : 60


Piccolo Daimao


Cymbal : 37.5

Tambourine : 50

Son Goku : 60

Piccolo Daimao [less than half] : 74
--- Full Power : 150

Yajirobe : 56
Tenshinhan : 58

Piccolo Daimao [youth recovered] : 200

Son Goku [post sacred water] : 205

Mr. Popo : 275


23rd Budokai


Chappa-o : 50

Chi-Chi : 90
Yajirobe : 90

Yamcha : 160
Kuririn : 180

Tenshinhan : 225

Son Goku [weighted] : 230
-- speed : 205

Son Goku [full power] : 375

Kami-sama : 315

Piccolo Junior [full power] : 368




I've tried to leave it as small and readable as possible. Comment!

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Mireya » Sat Jul 24, 2021 1:10 am

Forgot to add Drum. I'd have him as 70.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Sat Jul 24, 2021 10:08 am

SoulSurj wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:04 pm Ssj/(Saiyan Beyond God)= 50×Base
Ssj 2= 100×Base
Ssj 3= 400×Base
God (without ritual)= 500×Base
God (with ritual)<= Blue
Blue (SBG×50)= 2,500×Base
Golden Oozaru= Over 3,200×Base
(Base Form Fusion >= Golden Oozaru)
Ssj 4 (10×Golden Oozaru)= Over 32,000×Base
Ultra Instinct= Unknown
You have GT forms stronger than God forms? Uh, that's unusual.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by SoulSurj » Sun Jul 25, 2021 3:41 pm

Noah wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 10:08 am
SoulSurj wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:04 pm Ssj/(Saiyan Beyond God)= 50×Base
Ssj 2= 100×Base
Ssj 3= 400×Base
God (without ritual)= 500×Base
God (with ritual)<= Blue
Blue (SBG×50)= 2,500×Base
Golden Oozaru= Over 3,200×Base
(Base Form Fusion >= Golden Oozaru)
Ssj 4 (10×Golden Oozaru)= Over 32,000×Base
Ultra Instinct= Unknown
You have GT forms stronger than God forms? Uh, that's unusual.
I used to have ssjg in the millions and blue in the billions but that was only because I assumed they were stronger than fusion. I decreased them because the Super showed that god and blue were weaker than fusion in every continuity. MUI seems to be above base form fusion but I can't tell by how much at the moment. GT forms just ended up being higher because the fusion multiplier and the Golden Oozaru's multiplier are about the same.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:29 pm

SoulSurj wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 3:41 pm
Noah wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 10:08 am
SoulSurj wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:04 pm Ssj/(Saiyan Beyond God)= 50×Base
Ssj 2= 100×Base
Ssj 3= 400×Base
God (without ritual)= 500×Base
God (with ritual)<= Blue
Blue (SBG×50)= 2,500×Base
Golden Oozaru= Over 3,200×Base
(Base Form Fusion >= Golden Oozaru)
Ssj 4 (10×Golden Oozaru)= Over 32,000×Base
Ultra Instinct= Unknown
You have GT forms stronger than God forms? Uh, that's unusual.
I used to have ssjg in the millions and blue in the billions but that was only because I assumed they were stronger than fusion. I decreased them because the Super showed that god and blue were weaker than fusion in every continuity. MUI seems to be above base form fusion but I can't tell by how much at the moment. GT forms just ended up being higher because the fusion multiplier and the Golden Oozaru's multiplier are about the same.
When was Golden Oozaru equated with fusion, in terms of raw power?

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