Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[ahill1]

Someone has an estimation about Piccolo's current powers? He held his own against a tired Frost and I doubt Frost was that much weaker than his full power, since as far as I remember it wasn't stated he was weakened. Is Piccolo above base Goku and Vegeta?

[apex_pretador]

Someone has an estimation about Piccolo's current powers? He held his own against a tired Frost and I doubt Frost was that much weaker than his full power, since as far as I remember it wasn't stated he was weakened. Is Piccolo above base Goku and Vegeta?

Piccolo is definitely below base saiyans.
Frost was tired, as well as holding back.

Also, piccolo is just that good of a fighter.

[DanielSSJ]

Someone has an estimation about Piccolo's current powers? He held his own against a tired Frost and I doubt Frost was that much weaker than his full power, since as far as I remember it wasn't stated he was weakened. Is Piccolo above base Goku and Vegeta?

I assume that he's at least around Super Perfect Cell's level, but no stronger than Fat Boo. Then again, it is Super, so I dunno.

[ZombieVito]

Someone has an estimation about Piccolo's current powers? He held his own against a tired Frost and I doubt Frost was that much weaker than his full power, since as far as I remember it wasn't stated he was weakened. Is Piccolo above base Goku and Vegeta?

I currently have him (And by extension Gohan) a little bit weaker than Super Boo.

[RandomGuy96]

I saw a theory about Goku's GT power level rising so much in his base form. Basically it said that the reason he's gotten so ridiculously strong in-spite of the Boo Saga heavily implying he's practically tapped out is he learned how to access his various Super Saiyan forms power in his base state. Giving him a monstrously strong base state at the cost of his SSJ forms (minus 4) getting a massively lowered multipliers.

Is there any merit to this theory or is it just trying to make up an explanation where there really isn't one?

I do recall Rildo saying something like "you were barely using half your power before" when Goku transforms from base to SS.

[LightBing]

Someone has an estimation about Piccolo's current powers? He held his own against a tired Frost and I doubt Frost was that much weaker than his full power, since as far as I remember it wasn't stated he was weakened. Is Piccolo above base Goku and Vegeta?

Based on Super's manga, he's slightly weaker than the Base Saiyans taken from his performance against Frost. There's no mention of any power up for him, so I give him a, let's call it predictable power gain ever since the Cell Games, which makes him slightly stronger than Kaioshin but still weaker than SSJ Goku(Cell Games).
Goku's apparent preference of Mr.Boo over him when choosing the participants, further supports this idea.

[ahill1]

Daizenshuu listened Goku at 3 million during this battle, but here is why I think such is an impossibility:

Goku and Freeza were initially warming up in their fight:

Spoiler:

Goku only used his full power in base when Freeza started to fight without hands:

Spoiler:

You could say Goku was using the Kaiô-ken, but not according to the full colors:

Spoiler:

Goku only uses the Kaiô-ken when Freeza goes to 50%:

Spoiler:

So, we have:

Freeza (without hands) > Goku base (full power) > Freeza (warming up) >= Goku base (warming up).

[DanielSSJ]

Daizenshuu listened Goku at 3 million during this battle, but here is why I think such is an impossibility:

Goku and Freeza were initially warming up in their fight:

Spoiler:

Goku only used his full power in base when Freeza started to fight without hands:

Spoiler:

You could say Goku was using the Kaiô-ken, but not according to the full colors:

Spoiler:

Goku only uses the Kaiô-ken when Freeza goes to 50%:

Spoiler:

So, we have:

Freeza (without hands) > Goku base (full power) > Freeza (warming up) >= Goku base (warming up).

You haven't really provided any reasons why Goku being at 3 million is an impossibility. You've just listed a bunch of manga panels and said that Freeza without hands is stronger than full power Goku who is stronger than Freeza and Goku when they were warming up. I didn't see an argument in there at all.

[ekrolo2]

I think the 3 million thing for both of them is a rounded number and not what they're actually at in the fight. Before using SSJ, Goku loses a lot of Ki just with the KKX20 then again by charging the Spirit Bomb. Conversely, Freeza gets smashed with the Bomb with such force he thought he was actually going to die. That's why I think, at least, they're powers of 3 million (at base) and 150/120 million are their powers under ideal conditions, not what they actually are in the fight itself once you take their respective battle damage and fatigue into account.

[Noah]

I always wondered about something:

Is there a specific power gap estimative that indicates that a fighter could totally own his opponent?

Look at Vegeta and Dodoria: 24,000 and 22,000 respectively and Vegeta finished him with ease, but now if we look to SSJ Goku and 100% FP Freeza, 150mi and 120mi respectively, it's a bigger power difference than the first example, should that be enough to Goku destroy Freeza and they fight more or less evenly matched.

[DanielSSJ]

I always wondered about something:

Is there a specific power gap estimative that indicates that a fighter could totally own his opponent?

Look at Vegeta and Dodoria: 24,000 and 22,000 respectively and Vegeta finished him with ease, but now if we look to SSJ Goku and 100% FP Freeza, 150mi and 120mi respectively, it's a bigger power difference than the first example, should that be enough to Goku destroy Freeza and they fight more or less evenly matched.

No, there is no real rule to power gaps. The only hard-and-fast rule is that if fighter A has a higher level than fighter B, then A is more likely to win. Dodoria was afraid and sloppy, which allowed Vegeta to get the drop on him and finish him quickly. With Freeza vs Goku, I like to think that Goku held back slightly extend the fight a bit, and that his final "You Fool!" blast is a pretty good indicator of what Goku could've done all along.

[ahill1]

@DanielSSJ - How so? I only posted the images to reinforce my opinion.I just showed why I think Goku wasn't using his full power initially against Freeza, as they both said that was only a warm up and that they would get serious soon.

[DanielSSJ]

@DanielSSJ - How so? I only posted the images to reinforce my opinion.I just showed why I think Goku wasn't using his full power initially against Freeza, as they both said that was only a warm up and that they would get serious soon.

Okay? That's still not an argument. You need to explain why those images reinforce your opinion. Goku's full power can still be 3 million and the power that he was using before that could've been like 2.5 million or something.

[Kaboom]

Yeah, nothing wrong with the 3 million figure for Goku (although you couldn't get much lower than that). That early part of he and Freeza's fight is easily just chalked up to effort rather than a change in power level, since one was never specifically noted.

If Goku's simply got a high enough power level, then he'll be able to naturally track and react to Freeza much better than Vegeta could, and thus be able to fight back fairly well even when not trying his hardest yet. Kind of similar to how Goku and Cell's fight seemed like no big deal to Gohan because he was so strong compared to both of them, even though he didn't do much better against Cell himself for lack of real effort.

Is there a specific power gap estimative that indicates that a fighter could totally own his opponent?

Not really. There's no clear-cut "gaps" where being X% stronger than your opponent is the universal boundary between pwnage or a good fight. Other factors besides power like skill, physiology, special abilities, mindset, and all that jazz play a big part too.

Like with Vegeta versus Zarbon and Dodoria. In both instances, Vegeta had a small advantage in power but a big one in skill and mindset. He was at the top of his game in terms of fighting ability because he was always on the front lines of the planet-conquering, while Zarbon and Dodoria just followed Freeza around and pick on weaklings all day. Plus, Vegeta's new ability to sense ki naturally would obviously give him a huge tactical advantage all on its own. He had a pretty good mental advantage over them too, what with them being apprehensive from reading his power level earlier. Especially with Dodoria, who was actually even running away in terror when Vegeta finished him off.

Meanwhile with Goku and Freeza, the latter seems to be a pretty good fighter himself somehow, and he was also self-confident almost to the point of denial about being surpassed. Combine that with both their injuries holding back their physical performance (but not necessarily affecting their maximum power level, as discussed above), and a fairly good and even fight between them isn't surprising. ,

Another good example is Nappa vs Goku. The former was outclassed in power level by a whole lot (4,000-4,500 against Goku's 8,000+) when the fight began, but he was still eventually able to give Goku a good fight and have a shot at winning because... 1) He's an extraordinarily durable mofo even by Saiyan standards (he repeatedly tanked things like Chaozu's self-destruct and a Kikoho, and Goku specifically noted how "tough" he was), 2) he was a very skilled and perceptive fighter once he regained his cool (not surprising given how many decades of fighting experience he probably has), and 3) his power level may have actually been steadily rising during the course of the fight itself (as Toriyama's told us can happen). That's three big factors outside of the two fighters' starting power levels, only one of them related to power at all, that handily allow a weaker fighter to contend with a much stronger opponent.

[ahill1]

@DanielSSJ

That's still not an argument.

Yeah, it is. I think you don't know what an argument is to make such absurd comment.

You need to explain why those images reinforce your opinion.

I already did it twice. I'm sorry if you don't see that.

and the power that he was using before that could've been like 2.5 million or something.

No, it really could not. Warm up Goku fought almost evenly with Freeza, whose power great exceeded Vegeta's, whose power considerably exceeded 3rd form Freeza's, whose power considerably exceeded Piccolo, whose power most likely slightly exceeded 2nd form Freeza's. 2nd form Freeza powered up twice and his initial power was most likely ahead 1 million.


@Kaboom

That early part of he and Freeza's fight is easily just chalked up to effort rather than a change in power level, since one was never specifically noted.

That's your interpretation and the way you want it to be, but I don't agree with that. Sure you could use the "100% Freeza saying his initial assault against SSJ Goku was just an warm up", but we have Freeza being confident he would take the advantage against Goku without hands, even though they both were almost evenly before. Freeza had to use more power if he believes he would handle Goku without hands and so did Goku IMO. Freeza (serious/no hands) and Goku base (serious) > Freeza (warming up) and Goku (warming up) IMO, there's nothing wrong with they using more power, specially when they can freely control their battle power.

I don't think it needs to be noted that they powered up either, since one chapter before that Piccolo said both Goku and Freeza weren't giving their all.

Besides, Kaboom, even if this is only an effort thing, we can agree that Goku (serious) would beat Goku (warming up), sure? So if a warm up Goku was already able to fight pretty well against the Freeza who tooled Vegeta, so a serious Goku would be able to get the advantage against this warming up Freeza, right?

[LightBing]

I always wondered about something:

Is there a specific power gap estimative that indicates that a fighter could totally own his opponent?

Look at Vegeta and Dodoria: 24,000 and 22,000 respectively and Vegeta finished him with ease, but now if we look to SSJ Goku and 100% FP Freeza, 150mi and 120mi respectively, it's a bigger power difference than the first example, should that be enough to Goku destroy Freeza and they fight more or less evenly matched.

Where did you get that Dodoria number? Is it from some guide? In my opinion looking at guide numbers to interpret the manga, is like looking at filler to interpret the manga...
That 150.000.000 number is based on the x50 idea, which it's already a wrong interpretation of the original work. Said so here by Mr.Toriyama http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... agon-ball/.

So going back to your original question, if we want to be objective we can only evaluate fight's in the manga where it's know both opponents power levels:

Raditz (12xx, said so by Nappa) vs Goku (416) and Piccolo (408) Gap 66%

Raditz owns them both at the same time, there's no dispute that in a head-to-head fight this power difference is more than enough for dominance. I highlight that Goku and Piccolo had the advantage of ki-sensing/modification, besides the surprise factor.
Piccolo would never have been able to hit with his Makankosappo alone and he failed the first time with Goku's help.

Part 1: Goku (8.000) vs Vegeta (18.000) Gap 56%

This is rather short but we see Goku turned into a punching bag, just no chance at all. Another case of dominance.

Part 2: Kaioken x2 Goku (16.000) vs Vegeta (18.000) Gap 12%

This super short, what we see is Goku partially dodging Vegeta's attack. Which indicates that this wouldn't be a one way beat down. However, it appears Goku still wouldn't have any chance of victory in a head-to-head confrontation.

Part 3: Kaioken x3 Goku (24.000) vs Vegeta (18.000) Gap 25%

Vegeta gets dominated. He tries to fight back, failing to hit Goku. This is very one-sided.

Vegeta (24.000) vs Kiwi (18.000) Gap 25%

A panicked and fleeing Kiwi is easily killed by Vegeta. The difference between this fight and the previous gap 25% fight are three factors: Kiwi mental state in here does him harm, he's already a defeated man; Vegeta's toughness to resist Goku onslaught; Goku's suffering the stress of the Kaioken.
I would say there's consistency between both fight's, if we take into account the details and not simply raw power. The result would be the same, the impact changes due to the details.

Nail (42.000) vs First Form Freeza (530.000) Gap 93%
Overkill...

Conclusion: At the very least 25% power advantage is enough to own, even with other factors like toughness, mental state and ki-sensing/modifying advantages. Vegeta is one of the biggest tanks in the series, that wouldn't stop him from losing to Kaioken x3 Goku.
I should note that if you let yourself get hit by a Genki Dama or allow Piccolo to charge his Makankosappo for an hour, you're gonna lose. Special techniques can cover any gap, what I'm discussing is a head-to-head type of confrontation.

Based on other fight's that we can kinda guess the characters power level, I theorize that a gap of 10/15% can be overcome by skill, intelligence, toughness, team work, etc...
10% or less and we should have an entertaining and even fight.

[Kaboom]

That's your interpretation and the way you want it to be, but I don't agree with that.

That's perfectly okay, but that doesn't prevent it from being a valid explanation. One can assume "they just used some more effort without actually changing their power so 3 million works fine," or one can say, "I don't agree with the 3 million figure because I think they increased their power." Neither one really affects or invalidates the other. But frankly, when official material specifically pertinent to the main story says "Goku had a PL of 3 million," I'm inclined to believe that whatever approach aligns with that is correct. I'm not inclined to go looking for reasons to disagree with the guidebooks.

One of the biggest problems I see often with discussing power levels is that it's too easy or just common to think in terms of nothing but the comparative numbers. "Fighter A has X power, Fighter B has Y power, so when A fights B, <thing> happens." But there's more to it than that. Someone can be operating at a certain power level but still not trying their hardest at the same time. Because of their higher power level they'll still be better off than someone significantly weaker than them, but the full brunt of that power isn't really evident until they actually put their all into the fight.

This isn't like some wacky theory or anything, it just seems like common sense to me. Static power, but varying effort. Badabing, badaboom.

That 150.000.000 number is based on the x50 idea, which it's already a wrong interpretation of the original work. Said so here by Mr. Toriyama: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... agon-ball/.

Seriously, every time someone says this they're putting a lot of extra words in Toriyama's mouth. What the man said ultimately means little more than "it didn't feel as big as 50x to me when I drew things." If he were really trying to say, "I declare as the original author that Super Saiyan only increases one's strength by 10x, and the 50x notion is a blatant falsehood," then does anyone really think Shueisha would still repeat the 50x tidbit in that very same book?


Anyway, Noah, the fact of the matter is that while the manga may show some trends when it comes to performance at certain power level differences, it's quite another thing to treat those trends as some sort of hard rule. The story really only showed how such fights can progress, not necessarily how they always will progress. No two fights or fighters are the same, and the flow or outcome of battles can't be reduced to just comparing numbers.

[KentalSSJ6]

Where do you feel SP Cell falls under? I keep thinking in the neighborhood of 10 Billion (With Buu Arc SSJ3 Goku at 40 Billion for perspective).

[Kaboom]

Where do you feel SP Cell falls under? I keep thinking in the neighborhood of 10 Billion (With Buu Arc SSJ3 Goku at 40 Billion for perspective).

Pretty much dead-even with Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. Which according to my expertly-crafted arbitrary numbers is a power level of about 7 billion.

[CashmanX]

Where do you feel SP Cell falls under? I keep thinking in the neighborhood of 10 Billion (With Buu Arc SSJ3 Goku at 40 Billion for perspective).

Pretty much dead-even with Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. Which according to my expertly-crafted arbitrary numbers is a power level of about 7 billion.

That's not far off from my 5 Billion either. Funny how a lot of our numbers often fall in the same ball park

.....


...I should really get to work on posting a BP list of my own.