Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by NickLord » Sat Jan 08, 2022 11:00 pm

Is there any official information on how of an increase MUI is from UI Omen, or the multipliers for SSG & SSB?

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:40 am

NickLord wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 11:00 pm Is there any official information on how of an increase MUI is from UI Omen, or the multipliers for SSG & SSB?
Official? No. Only that SSB is like 10x SSG or something like that, and for the manga that is.

SSG was implied in BoG to be even beyond pre-godly empowered people fusion, and that's all the official comment about it we ever had.

And UI provides a huge boost, enough to make Goku, who was not able to even land a hit on Moro73, put him down in 4 blows, but that's about it, how much of a boost is anyone's guess.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sun Jan 09, 2022 5:37 pm

NickLord wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 11:00 pm Is there any official information on how of an increase MUI is from UI Omen, or the multipliers for SSG & SSB?
Nothing yet, though common sense still dictates that SSJB is literally just SSJG + SSJ.

The Moro Saga had Goku going from below Vegeta, who had a blast tanked by 7-3 Moro, to tanking Moro when he completed UI. That's at least 4x boost.
ZombieVito wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 5:07 pm So I guess you don't believe Beerus line about Freeza > Base Goku.
Or maybe FPSSJ has a 5,000x multiplier :wink:

But nah, I don't think even Beerus believed that. Goku wasn't powered up and Beerus wanted him to show his transformations, which was how he defeated Freeza back then. You could make a point for Beerus knowing Goku was suppressed and estimating his full power (like Ginyu did), but in that case why exclude Kaio-Ken or the semi SSJ thing Vegeta used vs Broly? I take the Daizenshuu flat out saying Trunks has ability on pair with 18's over that ambiguous, throwaway line.

Either way I don't see that affecting the Cell Saga power levels much or at all since it's easy to make a point on FPSSJ actually giving a bigger boost than unmastered SSJ.

The list I based this one on did follow Freeza > Base Saiyans though, and I just noticed I posted a broken link for it. This one should work.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:40 pm

The Modest Proposal: Part 2

So, some months back (really? That long?) I put up a proposal about another way of looking at Power Levels in the period from the beginning of Dragon Ball up to the arrival of Raditz, trying to balance the official Battle Power numbers with the indications of power progression that the story gives us (you can find the original post here; this was followed by revisions and extra detail on suppressed ki states).

The proposal presented the idea of Total ki Power as better represented as the area of a shape, with Battle Power in the strictest sense, and the qualities that come with it (e.g., greater strength, speed, durability, destructive power, etc.) just being one dimension of the greater whole, which also takes into account the constituent elements of that ki power (e.g. ki reserves, emotional and physical state, control and usage of power, etc.), and how it is used, with Martial Artists being able to modify the ‘shape’ of their ki into different ‘states’ to meet the demands of a battle – the extent to which they are able do this is covered by the catch-all term ‘capacity’. For convenience of reference, I’ll put a small excerpt from the original post in ‘spoiler’ tags here:
I mentioned in the original post that the later arcs of Dragon Ball might also be subjected to a similar approach (which, if it could fit the very ‘Official BP-heavy’ section of the Saiyan and Freeza arcs, might go some way to establishing the validity of the approach). So, this part of The Modest Proposal is going to look to do just that, covering the Saiyan arc following the battle with Raditz, and the Freeza arc in its entirety. The comments are…rather longer than in Part 1, as important changes to character power are more prevalent in this stage of the series than they were previously.

As before, the images are all linked to larger, more readable versions if you click on them.

So, having said that, I’ll dive right in:

DB #210-229 – The Day of the Saiyans
Comments
DB #230-242 – Battle in the Red Zone
Comments
DB #243-264 – Dark Clouds over Planet Namek
Comments
DB #265-290 – The Ginyu Force
Comments
DB #291-304 – An Endless Escalation
Comments
DB #305-328 – The Super Decisive Battle
Comments
DB #329-336 – The Boy from the Future
Comments

I think that’ll do, for now – the Cell arc listing will be coming before too long, I hope (dunno if Buu arc listings will come with them – I have the models down and I’ve done some rough calcs, but doing this stuff takes a long time), but it’s encouraging to note that the model manages to work (and do some interesting things that seem to help interpretation a bit in some of the stickier places for conventional lists) across the stretch of the series that’s most thickly-populated with Official BPs.

As ever, comments and suggestions are welcome!

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:05 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:40 pm The Modest Proposal: Part 2

I'm taking it easy at the moment, only checked out the saiyan saga fights for now, and do agree about the KKx3, and how it isn't as easy as fighting Kiwi on Namek for Geets, and how his body is crumbling down due to the toll, and how what Jiren said perfectly applies here.

But I still, can't figure out what's the deal with KK and KKx2, and maybe the Modest Proposal can shed some light on the matter... Kaio said the technique doubles the power, so KK = x2... so if Goku gets at 16,000-ish with his first KK, that makes sense... but then KKx2 also puts him at that level... but with more Capacity now?

base: 8
KK: 16
KKx2: 16?
KKx3: 24

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Mon Jan 24, 2022 2:29 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:05 pmBut I still, can't figure out what's the deal with KK and KKx2, and maybe the Modest Proposal can shed some light on the matter... Kaio said the technique doubles the power, so KK = x2... so if Goku gets at 16,000-ish with his first KK, that makes sense... but then KKx2 also puts him at that level... but with more Capacity now?

base: 8
KK: 16
KKx2: 16?
KKx3: 24
Kaio-Ken and Kaio-Ken x2 are the same thing. The story just starts having Goku specify that the level he's been using is "times two" to set up him upping the ante to Kaio-Ken x3.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:28 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:40 pm The Modest Proposal: Part 2
...
As ever, comments and suggestions are welcome!
I like this. I like this a lot. I'm especially fond of the way you handle Super Saiyan here. I've always struggled with how to handle the difference between Grade 1 and Grade 4. I've never liked the idea of Grade 4/Full Power being an straightforward power upgrade to the basic form, but I like your idea that Grade 4 is how powerful the form is supposed to be, but that before mastering it, a lot of it's power ends up going to waste. I'm guessing Grade 2 and 3 are going to end up like less extreme versions of the Kaioken: Big boosts in battle power belying a comparatively small boost in total power because of their shrinking capacity.

My only complaint (more of a nitpick, really) is that there are some spots where I think err too close to the official numbers. I get that Chaozu kind of lags behind the rest of the Earthlings, but only being at 610 (less than Goku or Piccolo from the last fight???) for the battle against the Saiyans seems a bit much to me. I think having him be closer to Yajirobe's official 900 something would be a bit more realistic.
Likewise, I've never been fond of Vegeta's 250k figure for when they start fighting Freeza. For someone who was able to grapple with Freeza for a bit and thought they had a chance against a transformed Freeza, less than half of 1st Form Freeza's full power seems a bit ridiculous to me. But, like I said, those are nitpicks.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:52 pm

I never had a problem with Vegeta's 250,000 figure.

Nothing confirms Freeza used his full power on their brief struggle and Vegeta was visibly tired from it while Freeza was completely fine.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:58 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 4:40 pm The Modest Proposal: Part 2
I still don't fully understand how you arrive at all those numbers (And probably so do most people) even if I get the gist of it, but this is still a pretty interesting work. Looking forward to the rest of the series, specially because the Saiyan and Freeza Sagas are the easiest ones to figure out. It's mostly all stated in one way or another.

Now let me see if I'm getting this straight. Total Power is the total amount of Ki, something only the Ki sensers can pick up, right? Or is it like, the reserves this character has? Like, if a Saibaman fires a Kamehameha at it's own level, does it's total power fall to 1,130,973 - 1,200?
DB #210-229 – The Day of the Saiyans
DB #230-242 – Battle in the Red Zone
Shouldn't you give Gohan an enraged level from right before he charged the Masenko? Or do you think after Piccolo died he just went full power and almost doubled his power with the Masenko? I'm not sure if that's possible because Piccolo holds his power in high regard even as a hand to hand combat. Just look at that bit when he kicked Nappa in the face. Surprise or not, no one could do anything like that.

I like how you handle Nappa and Vegeta's altering levels with capacity and stuff. I'd think Nappa definitely got stronger by fighting Goku, because serious or not he definitely considered Nappa to be quite an opponent. I agree with the stuff about Kaio-Ken Goku - his power was faltering due to the strain, which makes the fight look more like Vegeta vs Zarbon than Vegeta vs Kui. It also didn't help Kui that he had that Shouki and/or Yuuki loss.

It's never flat out said Vegeta can't raise his power with a concentrated attack, only that he (and the rest of Freeza's goons) can't lower their powers to hide them. Raditz never even shows the ability to power up like Nappa or Vegeta, so his Ki control is closer to the likes of Freeza's men than to higher class Saiyans like these two. As for Vegeta and Gohan, this was the first time he'd actually seen the Z Fighters flat out change their power levels, as he ditched his scouter at the beginning of the fight. That's all. I do think it's possible Goku was more worn out than Vegeta and that's why they were stalemated, though. Garlic Gun and Kamehameha are pretty much the same technique, so Goku and Vegeta should be the same at base before firing their blasts.

Why do you have the Genki-Dama so weak? Goku was going to use it to kill Oozaru Vegeta, not just regular Vegeta.
DB #243-264 – Dark Clouds over Planet Namek
DB #265-290 – The Ginyu Force
I often go back and forth on Dodoria and Zarbon's powers. I ultimately chose to bump them down just a bit, which isn't much of an issue. It's no different than you not having Gohan and Kuririn at exactly 14 and 13,000. I do like the explanation about them being rusty though.

I think Goku's braced level vs the Ginyus should be a bit higher than 60k actually. Ginyu says he's better than he expected, and this is before he realizes Goku isn't going all out. For some reason I think 23,000 would've been a nice placement for
DB #291-304 – An Endless Escalation
DB #305-328 – The Super Decisive Battle
There's really no reason to keep Vegeta at 250,000. V-Jump says this is his power "after the fight with Recoome", which could be interpreted as this being his "pre-nap" power. I don't really buy the nap thing by the way because Senzu Beans also heal fatigue, he was probably just suppressed when killing Jeice at 250,000. Either way, there's no way Vegeta could be swapping hands with a furious Freeza with less than half power and a lower capacity. He's better off at 500,000; which would also bump enraged Gohan. I think you underestimated Enraged Gohan a lot here. Piccolo even praizes his power, meaning he finally surpassed Piccolo for good. When Piccolo saved Gohan all he did was change it's course, no different than Kaioshin deflecting a blast from Majin Boo.

I like how you use these levels to dance around Daizenshuu's 3 million power level. Pretty interesting to see SSJ only multiplies Goku's initial level as well, that makes a lot of sense.

Now, my biggest issue. SSJ Goku vs Freeza. I was expecting you do give Goku a lower capacity than Freeza, but that's probably not viable. Freeza's 100% is way more volatile than SSJ ever was. I've seen the thing about Goku "buying time" a lot, both in the context of power levels discussion and of story overall. I have no idea how people read it that way: Freeza things Goku is "buying time" because he thinks Goku is sacrificing himself so Gohan can flee. Goku saying he's not buying time is true: He's genuinely worried about his friends and would help them if he could.

Saying Freeza did very little to Goku is quite a underestatement. I don't think anything Goku did ever left Freeza down for so long. He shows up bleeding and out of breath. Goku plots the whole plan with Kaio while Freeza powers up, and the one moment he tries to talk to Kaio again Freeza gets the better of him and reaches Polunga first. After that they have a final hand to hand combat (and as you said, Freeza was already worn out due to the Nova Strike) and Freeza hangs in fairly well. Goku only drops the towel when he notices Freeza can't put up a fight anymore.
DB #329-336 – The Boy from the Future
Shouldn't King Cold and suppressed Freeza be stronger than that? Freeza thought Cold would be real help. Logically you don't have to be anywhere close to help in a fight, but 10x weaker? That's like if Yajirobe tried to help Goku vs Vegeta, before the beam struggle. The Dragon Books simply say it's possible Cold can transform because Freeza can, there's no confirmation and the manga seems to imply otherwise since Cold never attemps a transformation. Wouldn't he already arrive at his final form then?
ZombieVito wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:52 pm I never had a problem with Vegeta's 250,000 figure.

Nothing confirms Freeza used his full power on their brief struggle and Vegeta was visibly tired from it while Freeza was completely fine.
He literally wants to kill Vegeta. I don't think we've ever seen Freeza angrier in the whole series. Maybe at the end of his fight with Goku, but still.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:40 pm

Yeah, I also don't think 1st form Freeza was holding back, before powering up he was tanking hits from Nail without even flinching, so he must've already been in the 100,000s or 200,000s.
His dream for immortality getting crushed was never as fresh as in that bout, this is when he fights because they killed his dream, afterwards he fights because they are fighting back.

He was grinding his teeth, and not pleased at all with how the fight was going. If he still had twice the power in that form left, why not use it to fuck Geets up a bit, before transforming into a more scarier form? also why would he, being that angry, power up in a half-assed way?

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:01 pm

Re-reading the chapter: Their struggle was barely anything. It ended as soon as it began so I see no reason for Vegeta to not be able to hold off Freeza for a few seconds by putting way more effort than him. You can see that clearly when Vegeta is out of breath while Freeza is like nothing had happen. If they were comparable then Freeza would be out of breath as well.

Also, Freeza was still going to fight them on his first form. He only transformed because Vegeta told him to.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Wed Jan 26, 2022 8:34 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:01 pmAlso, Freeza was still going to fight them on his first form. He only transformed because Vegeta told him to.
That's kinda the problem though. If Freeza's already twice as strong as Vegeta, what makes Vegeta think he could take on a transformed Freeza, even with Gohan and Kuririn as backup? I definitely think 500k is too much for Vegeta at that moment, but 250k seems like way too little. Somewhere in aroudn 400k seems more reasonable, if you ask me. He's still not quite up ot Freeza's level, but the gap is small enough that the three of them might be able to handle a transformed Freeza, so long as the transformation isn't too extreme (which ended up not being the case).
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:24 pm

DanielSSJ wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:28 pmI like this. I like this a lot. I'm especially fond of the way you handle Super Saiyan here. (...) I'm guessing Grade 2 and 3 are going to end up like less extreme versions of the Kaioken: Big boosts in battle power belying a comparatively small boost in total power because of their shrinking capacity.
Thanks so much for the kind words!

I'm glad you like the position I've taken for Super Saiyan - I was never happy with approaches to the Grades that go a kind of 'RPG stat' route (e.g., 'SSjIII = 200x power but -50% speed'), because a) I just don't like those kinds of approach, period, b) I felt that sort of approach never really got to the heart of what the problem with the Grades was, and c) as you say, it often drags 'let's not make SSjIV a 50x BP boost' in its wake, which I also really never liked. Basically, yes, when it gets to the Cell arc the Grade Forms will be heavily prioritising BP (SSjIII to an extreme degree) and the Capacity of these forms will be correspondingly inhibited.
DanielSSJ wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:28 pmMy only complaint (more of a nitpick, really) is that there are some spots where I think err too close to the official numbers.
That's certainly fair comment - occasionally I can get a little slavish with it. But I guess at this stage, it's kind of an intellectual exercise as much as anything else; I wanted to see whether it was possible to incorporate as many Official BPs as possible while sticking properly to the 'Logic' and 'Maths' of the model, rather than tossing some out in favour of personal opinion (that kind of felt like 'cheating', I guess). But it's also true I could've used the Official numbers in a different way if I'd really thought about it (e.g. Chaozu - I could've made 610 his Resting or Braced BP, for instance; same with Vegeta against Freeza, which actually works much better than I'd anticipated - see below). Worth thinking about for some revisions, for sure.
Koitsukai wrote: Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:05 pmBut I still, can't figure out what's the deal with KK and KKx2, and maybe the Modest Proposal can shed some light on the matter... Kaio said the technique doubles the power, so KK = x2... so if Goku gets at 16,000-ish with his first KK, that makes sense... but then KKx2 also puts him at that level... but with more Capacity now?
As with what DanielSSJ says (and as many others interpret the manga, I'm sure), I consider that Kaio-Ken and Kaio-Ken x2 are the same thing; it's merely made more explicit prior to escalating it to a Kaio-Ken x3. Given what I've said about Kaio-Ken's 'Capacity' thinning as the factors rise, it would go against the grain to have a higher grade boast a better Capacity than a lower grade. If you really wanted to try positing some kind of cleavage between 'Kaio-Ken' and 'Kaio-Ken x2', I guess you could have one doubling the Braced Power and the other doubling the Maximum Power? But then again, I wouldn't want to do that, simply because I don't consider that it would be an accurate reading of the source material.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:58 pmI still don't fully understand how you arrive at all those numbers (And probably so do most people) even if I get the gist of it, but this is still a pretty interesting work.
Thanks for your comments, and your honest and thorough feedback! It's much appreciated.

I'm happy to share the 'logic'/'maths' behind the numbers, for sure - I'll put the basics in Spoiler Tags (which will also serve to answer a couple of your follow up questions), just so people who are interested can also peek, but people who aren't can give it a miss. It's not super-complex, so who knows? Maybe you'll be tempted to try it yourself, if you like the model well enough:
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:58 pmShouldn't you give Gohan an enraged level from right before he charged the Masenko? Or do you think after Piccolo died he just went full power and almost doubled his power with the Masenko? I'm not sure if that's possible because Piccolo holds his power in high regard even as a hand to hand combat. Just look at that bit when he kicked Nappa in the face. Surprise or not, no one could do anything like that.
I tend to regard Gohan as a bit of an exception because of the nature of his power profile - that circular 2800 BP is here treated as his power when enraged (when he kicks Nappa away), and the Masenko later, and also when he's enraged with Vegeta (assuming, for the sake of argument, that he starts from the same level and isn't weakened or anything). I did initially try another calculation where Gohan's Max BP was lower, and this led to a different 'enraged' BP which was then squeezed into a Masenko 'beam' configuration (the Total Power was rather lower, obviously), but I felt this wasn't consistent enough with how I'd previously laid out the way Gohan's power 'works'. So, basically, the Masenko is all that same power of rage in a blast (as Vegeta says, it uses up all Gohan's power).
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:58 pmIt's never flat out said Vegeta can't raise his power with a concentrated attack, only that he (and the rest of Freeza's goons) can't lower their powers to hide them. Raditz never even shows the ability to power up like Nappa or Vegeta, so his Ki control is closer to the likes of Freeza's men than to higher class Saiyans like these two.
I went back and forth on this myself, thinking 'well, maybe it's not a conscious BP rise, maybe it just 'happens' when Vegeta does a blast or something'. But my problem with this is that Raditz's astonishment at Goku and Piccolo raising their BP by concentration is...specifically on charged energy attacks. Raditz thinks it's downright impossible, which means he's never seen that happen before - this is a guy who's fought alongside Vegeta and Nappa pretty much all his life, so if this is new to Raditz, it follows he's never seen Vegeta or Nappa do that. And if he's never seen them do that, the likeliest explanation seems to me that this is simply because they can't do that.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:58 pmWhy do you have the Genki-Dama so weak? Goku was going to use it to kill Oozaru Vegeta, not just regular Vegeta.
He was indeed going to use it against Oozaru Vegeta. However, this doesn't necessarily mean he was expecting to win with it - he mentions that it's going to be his parting shot when he expects to die - if he thought it'd kill Oozaru Vegeta, he wouldn't be expecting to die himself. It's just the most powerful thing he can do to try to do something to Vegeta. And it also needs to be borne in mind that the more power one gives the original Genki Dama, the more implausible it is that half of it doesn't kill a Vegeta with (less than?) one-tenth of the BP he had previously.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:58 pmThere's really no reason to keep Vegeta at 250,000. V-Jump says this is his power "after the fight with Recoome", which could be interpreted as this being his "pre-nap" power. I don't really buy the nap thing by the way because Senzu Beans also heal fatigue, he was probably just suppressed when killing Jeice at 250,000. Either way, there's no way Vegeta could be swapping hands with a furious Freeza with less than half power and a lower capacity. He's better off at 500,000; which would also bump enraged Gohan. I think you underestimated Enraged Gohan a lot here. Piccolo even praizes his power, meaning he finally surpassed Piccolo for good.
I don't think it necessarily follows that Piccolo being proud means he's been surpassed by Gohan - just that Gohan is strong, which was the point of his taking him on as a pupil (and as a point of detail regarding the nap, it also doesn't follow that Senzus heal tiredness, else Vegeta wouldn't have needed to nap at all), but otherwise this is all more than fair enough, and lines up with what I said above to DanielSSJ about my being occasionally a bit 'slavish' with the Official numbers. I need to be a bit more creative with their usage than I have been at times to improve the overall 'fit', so thanks for pulling me up on this.

If I were to give Vegeta a Resting BP of 250,000 against Freeza (the V-Jump page does, after all, put it in the broader context of Freeza vs. Piccolo, so it seems off to ignore that), with a Capacity of 66%, then his Braced BP comes to 307,728, and his Maximum BP comes to 396,199. So, pretty dead-on DanielSSJ's suggestion (and because of the way Freeza's 'Total Power' works in this model, their respective Total Powers are almost dead even: 63,199,513,384 for Vegeta, 63,573,815,872 for Freeza, so he just has the raw BP advantage, which would be enough to explain Vegeta's apparently greater expenditure of effort to fend him off, and why Freeza was still intent on fighting in his First Form, as ZombieVito notes). I'll go back over this patch again and try to use some of the Official BPs in a less 'rote' fashion. Thanks again for the feedback on this!
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:58 pmNow, my biggest issue. SSJ Goku vs Freeza.
I've had another read of the fight, and I don't think I agree with your position. Overall, I see there being three main 'combats' within a less-than-5-minute window:
  • Freeza's initial 'warm-up' (read: clearly not a warm-up) assault; does superficial damage and Goku says it's a disappointing level.
  • Brief combat where Goku seems to get slightly the better of Freeza, which provokes the Nova Strike-Kamehameha 'duel'; Freeza blindsides Goku to land an unguarded hit. Goku takes superficial damage and is slightly winded, but is basically fine.
  • Brief and intense combat where Goku comes out increasingly on top, before stopping and saying there's no longer any point in fighting because Freeza can't sustain it any more.
None of this seems to bespeak a super-close clash of powers, to me. Rather, it reads like someone trying to be close to someone he isn't really close enough to, and just burning himself out in the attempt, which is pretty much what we see. But of course Freeza's massive BP is still there, so even though he has so much less behind it than Goku he can still get his licks in; it just doesn't 'take'.

The stuff I mentioned about the Kaio telepathy and Dragon faff isn't so much to note that Goku can even divide his attention; more to point out that this is all time within the broader 5-minute countdown where he isn't even doing any fighting. The longer the 'not-fighting' stuff is going on within that timeframe, the shorter the actual 'battle clock' is on Goku's victory. How long even is it? About 2 minutes, given that Freeza says there's "two or three minutes left" just after his first assault, and "less than two minutes" just before the final exchange where Goku claims victory? Gohan just about lasts that long against Recoome (I know Recoome's playing rather than going for the kill, and Freeza's in better shape at the end of that time; I'm just saying the comparison hardly flatters him). And on that note, the 'buying time' stuff gets its payoff when Goku says he was waiting for the opportunity just to be free to settle things with Freeza one-on-one, which only happens after the others are all wished off Namek (he literally says "I've been waiting for this moment" after explaining the plan to wish everyone else off Namek), so there are a number of data suggesting he's dragging it out beyond strict necessity.

For Goku to notch up this victory so quickly despite not necessarily giving it his all, or even fighting for much of it, bespeaks a greater power difference than the BPs suggest, not a smaller one, to me. And given that Freeza's inability to handle his own power is the issue here (hence the burnout), I point to the Capacity and Total Power elements to best explain it. I figure we won't see eye-to-eye on this, and that's totally fine - we both have our reasons and it's just an honest difference of opinion on how to interpret the fight, but I think I'll be sticking with this one, strikingly counter-intuitive though it may have been at first glance.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:58 pmShouldn't King Cold and suppressed Freeza be stronger than that? Freeza thought Cold would be real help.
Eh, maaaaybe. It really depends on how you interpret Gohan's "much, much stronger" line. Like, how much stronger are we talking? Cold is apparently comparable to whatever that level is. But you're right, I guess appealing to the possible transformation apparently alluded to by the Dragon Books was a bit hand-wavy of me; I'll be sure to take another look at this one and see if there's something else that can be done.

Thanks again for the feedback and comments, it's appreciated!

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:49 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:24 pmBut it's also true I could've used the Official numbers in a different way if I'd really thought about it (e.g. Chaozu - I could've made 610 his Resting or Braced BP, for instance; same with Vegeta against Freeza, which actually works much better than I'd anticipated - see below). Worth thinking about for some revisions, for sure.
I ended up doing the math, and if you set Chaozu's Resting BP at 610, his Braced BP comes to 729, and his Max ends up being 979, which seems a bit fairer, if you ask me. He's definitely lagging behind the other Earthlings in a big way, but it's not yet so drastic that he can't even keep up with the Yajirobe, who probably stopped training altogether as soon as they all finished their training with God. As an aside, I have to wonder if their official numbers accidentally got swapped at some point, because I could definitely imagine that the guy who never bothered to learn how to fly capping out at 610.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Jan 29, 2022 3:19 am

I never saw Freeza's 120 million power level as a mistake. The fight wasn't really close like people remember.

Also the series already said that the Saibaimen rivaled Raditz and those have the same difference as SS Goku and Freeza when it comes to battle power.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed Feb 02, 2022 6:53 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:24 pm Thanks for your comments, and your honest and thorough feedback! It's much appreciated.

I'm happy to share the 'logic'/'maths' behind the numbers, for sure - I'll put the basics in Spoiler Tags (which will also serve to answer a couple of your follow up questions), just so people who are interested can also peek, but people who aren't can give it a miss. It's not super-complex, so who knows? Maybe you'll be tempted to try it yourself, if you like the model well enough:
Yeah, it's sort of what I thought then. I noticed the math was following a pattern with the graphics, but I couldn't bother doing the math everytime to be sure. Guess it would've been helpful if someone bothered to double check for you though :lol:.

The beam thing is also more or less like I expected, but the math is a bit more complicated. I like the analogy that Ki is like a rubber band. Makes a lot of sense. You can stretch it all you want, but the body can only handle so much.

Other than the math (which I only ever use to make fancy round numbers) I had a similar understading on how Ki increase and Ki control and that sort of stuff work, but I think I'll save that for your Cell Saga post since my understading is derivated from the Grade forms unlocked in that saga.
Yes. I couldn't really think of a more elegant expression for it, but it's all the ki power available to a character at the time in question. And yes, this is what ki sensers can 'see', though I guess the edges of the shape would 'look' a bit blurry because ki sensing is kind of like a general impression - and if they weren't putting forth their power, it might 'look' a bit dim too, sort of like the scene in Dragon Ball Super #57 where Goku is trying to lock onto the ki of the others on Earth - Kuririn powers up, and the 'light' around him in Goku's sense 'looks' bigger and brighter overall. I figure the perception would be like that.
How does this work with folks that can't change their power level? All three Saiyans in the Saiyan Saga do power ups without changing their power levels. Is it represented by their variying capacities? I thought capacity would only change as one changed their power level. Like if you stretch the rubber band your capacity falls, if you train your capacity rises. How can they change their capacity at all if they can't move the rubber band?
I went back and forth on this myself, thinking 'well, maybe it's not a conscious BP rise, maybe it just 'happens' when Vegeta does a blast or something'. But my problem with this is that Raditz's astonishment at Goku and Piccolo raising their BP by concentration is...specifically on charged energy attacks. Raditz thinks it's downright impossible, which means he's never seen that happen before - this is a guy who's fought alongside Vegeta and Nappa pretty much all his life, so if this is new to Raditz, it follows he's never seen Vegeta or Nappa do that. And if he's never seen them do that, the likeliest explanation seems to me that this is simply because they can't do that.
Interestingly enough, Raditz is mostly surprised by how Goku and Piccolo are concentrating their powers on a certain spot.
Chapter: 201 (DBZ 7), P6.2-3
Context: said as Goku charges up the Kamehameha.
Raditz: “Impossible!!! His battle power is rising!!! Battle power 924...!!!”
Raditz: “He…He can raise his battle power by concentrating it into a single point!!!”

Chapter: 201 (DBZ 7), P7.2, P13.3
Context: said as Piccolo charges up the Makankosappo.
Raditz: “Th-this one's battle power is 1,020...30...!!! Un-unbelievable!!!! It's still rising!!!!
Raditz: “Battle power 1,330...!!!! He's gathered a-all of his battle power into his fingertips...!!!!”
In comparison, Vegeta had this whole aura around him since he started charging it, and the beam comes out of the aura instead of the palm of his hands.
He was indeed going to use it against Oozaru Vegeta. However, this doesn't necessarily mean he was expecting to win with it - he mentions that it's going to be his parting shot when he expects to die - if he thought it'd kill Oozaru Vegeta, he wouldn't be expecting to die himself. It's just the most powerful thing he can do to try to do something to Vegeta. And it also needs to be borne in mind that the more power one gives the original Genki Dama, the more implausible it is that half of it doesn't kill a Vegeta with (less than?) one-tenth of the BP he had previously.
I don't remember that quote, nor can I find it. He calls that blast to Vegeta's eye his parting shot, but with the Genki-Dama he's fairly confident it's going to finish the fight.

That line about half of the Genki-Dama being lost always confused me though. If we're not handwaving it as plot armour, then either Kuririn couldn't get all of the power Goku had left or Goku was halluciating with pain.
I don't think it necessarily follows that Piccolo being proud means he's been surpassed by Gohan - just that Gohan is strong, which was the point of his taking him on as a pupil (and as a point of detail regarding the nap, it also doesn't follow that Senzus heal tiredness, else Vegeta wouldn't have needed to nap at all), but otherwise this is all more than fair enough, and lines up with what I said above to DanielSSJ about my being occasionally a bit 'slavish' with the Official numbers. I need to be a bit more creative with their usage than I have been at times to improve the overall 'fit', so thanks for pulling me up on this.

If I were to give Vegeta a Resting BP of 250,000 against Freeza (the V-Jump page does, after all, put it in the broader context of Freeza vs. Piccolo, so it seems off to ignore that), with a Capacity of 66%, then his Braced BP comes to 307,728, and his Maximum BP comes to 396,199. So, pretty dead-on DanielSSJ's suggestion (and because of the way Freeza's 'Total Power' works in this model, their respective Total Powers are almost dead even: 63,199,513,384 for Vegeta, 63,573,815,872 for Freeza, so he just has the raw BP advantage, which would be enough to explain Vegeta's apparently greater expenditure of effort to fend him off, and why Freeza was still intent on fighting in his First Form, as ZombieVito notes). I'll go back over this patch again and try to use some of the Official BPs in a less 'rote' fashion. Thanks again for the feedback on this!
Piccolo took Gohan as a pupil so he could control his dormant power, which has higher than anyone else's. He was shaping Gohan into the "mightiest of warriors".
Chapter: 206 (DBZ 12), P13.1
Piccolo: “Your power bursts loose only when your emotions are at their peak…And then only for an instant. You can’t win like that. But I will beat into you the proper way to fight. I will make you the mightiest of warriors! Understand?”
And I maintain that pushing 3rd form Freeza back is a very impressive feat, even moreso than Piccolo changing it's course. Pushing something from the sides is probably easier than pushing it back.

400,000 is a nice figure for Vegeta. 500,000 is more in the higher end, but something like 400-450,000 is more fitting. Don't forget to raise enraged Gohan as well though: His feats are clearly better than Vegeta's, and Vegeta recognizes Gohan as stronger than himself.

I've had another read of the fight, and I don't think I agree with your position. Overall, I see there being three main 'combats' within a less-than-5-minute window:
  • Freeza's initial 'warm-up' (read: clearly not a warm-up) assault; does superficial damage and Goku says it's a disappointing level.
  • Brief combat where Goku seems to get slightly the better of Freeza, which provokes the Nova Strike-Kamehameha 'duel'; Freeza blindsides Goku to land an unguarded hit. Goku takes superficial damage and is slightly winded, but is basically fine.
  • Brief and intense combat where Goku comes out increasingly on top, before stopping and saying there's no longer any point in fighting because Freeza can't sustain it any more.
None of this seems to bespeak a super-close clash of powers, to me. Rather, it reads like someone trying to be close to someone he isn't really close enough to, and just burning himself out in the attempt, which is pretty much what we see. But of course Freeza's massive BP is still there, so even though he has so much less behind it than Goku he can still get his licks in; it just doesn't 'take'.

The stuff I mentioned about the Kaio telepathy and Dragon faff isn't so much to note that Goku can even divide his attention; more to point out that this is all time within the broader 5-minute countdown where he isn't even doing any fighting. The longer the 'not-fighting' stuff is going on within that timeframe, the shorter the actual 'battle clock' is on Goku's victory. How long even is it? About 2 minutes, given that Freeza says there's "two or three minutes left" just after his first assault, and "less than two minutes" just before the final exchange where Goku claims victory? Gohan just about lasts that long against Recoome (I know Recoome's playing rather than going for the kill, and Freeza's in better shape at the end of that time; I'm just saying the comparison hardly flatters him). And on that note, the 'buying time' stuff gets its payoff when Goku says he was waiting for the opportunity just to be free to settle things with Freeza one-on-one, which only happens after the others are all wished off Namek (he literally says "I've been waiting for this moment" after explaining the plan to wish everyone else off Namek), so there are a number of data suggesting he's dragging it out beyond strict necessity.

For Goku to notch up this victory so quickly despite not necessarily giving it his all, or even fighting for much of it, bespeaks a greater power difference than the BPs suggest, not a smaller one, to me. And given that Freeza's inability to handle his own power is the issue here (hence the burnout), I point to the Capacity and Total Power elements to best explain it. I figure we won't see eye-to-eye on this, and that's totally fine - we both have our reasons and it's just an honest difference of opinion on how to interpret the fight, but I think I'll be sticking with this one, strikingly counter-intuitive though it may have been at first glance.
I think it's a fairly close fight because every time they hit each other, the one being hit hardly takes any damage and is pretty quick to counter. Goku doesn't think much of Freeza's assault (Though he might be downplaying it: You can see him winded and moaning right before Freeza calls it a warm up), but Freeza also instantly recovers in that skirmish when Goku snaps his arm. The beam struggle is what sells it for me: I've never seen any evidence that the Nova Strike is significantly more powerful than the Kamehameha as a technique, so I always took it as them being fairly close. I'd even say Goku was seriously injured by Freeza blindsiding him since he was out of the fight for quite a while. Freeza only has trouble keeping up mostly because of his limited control over his full power, which is also why he gasses out so quickly.

I don't think we have a time frame for most fights in the series, so I wouldn't say comparing it to Gohan vs Recoome is a fair comparison. As early as the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai we had whole fights happening within less than a second. I think hardly any fight in the series lasts more than a handful of minutes. Dialogue aside (which is what made the bulk of Namek's final 5 minutes) all these fights are fairly quick reads, after all.

I don't think Goku saying he's been waiting for a no holds barrel fight means he's been holding back, but that he knew Freeza wouldn't be going down that quickly. Right after firing that Kamehameha he's screaming "DIE FREEZA!!" from the top of his lungs. The way I see it it wasn't until that final skirmish that the fight got like you see it, with Goku having a definitive upperhand and Freeza just getting a couple licks in.

At the end of the day, Freeza sort of defeated himself here. Not that he could ever have defeated Goku in a fair fight, he was weaker after all. But Goku calling off the fight when he finally got a good combo on Freeza says a lot. He even says he's open for a rematch, but as long as Freeza gets his stamina together and learns some new techniques.
Chapter 326 (DBZ 132), P4.1-5
Context: after Goku dodges his homing blast
Freeza: “An afterimage, huh?...You’re pretty good, aint’cha?...”
Goku: “Like I thought, I don’t have any desire to fight you as you are now…With you pinning your hopes on a worthless technique like that…If you really want to settle the score with me, recover your stamina and polish your skills.”
Freeza: “Yo-you’re calling my technique worthless?...Well then, how about two of them?!”
Along with the beam struggle, this line is what settles it for me.
Eh, maaaaybe. It really depends on how you interpret Gohan's "much, much stronger" line. Like, how much stronger are we talking? Cold is apparently comparable to whatever that level is. But you're right, I guess appealing to the possible transformation apparently alluded to by the Dragon Books was a bit hand-wavy of me; I'll be sure to take another look at this one and see if there's something else that can be done.
I like Freeza being at like 1/10th of his power, but unless King Cold was hiding a lot of power too I don't think it was that much. Freeza being at like, 50% of his power is probably a good placement. Still got a lot of power being held back.
Thanks again for the feedback and comments, it's appreciated!
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Mireya » Fri Feb 04, 2022 2:58 pm

I don't see how Vegeta's 250k can work, honestly. That's more than a 2x difference between him and Freeza. Granted that Vegeta had to use more effort to hold Freeza in place, but that doesn't warrant a 2x gap. Could Recoome feasibly do that against ~60k Goku if Goku angrily went at him for having killed Gohan (hypothetical scenario)? No, it's ludicrous to think he could. Gohan says they "might" be able to do something and Kuririn wonders why is Freeza so calm... meaning their chances, with Vegeta as the main star, are very real.

V-Jump's workers probably thought that adding up all the warriors' powers (250k +200k +75k) would leave them roughly equal to Freeza's 530k, then matching the comments... but that's not how things work. For instance, Roshi's 139 BP and Kuririn's 206 BP added together would mean more than Piccolo's 329... yet Kuririn discarded any idea of them fighting together based on Piccolo's then read 329 BP alone.

Heck, according to the Daizenshuu, Piccolo's 3500 vs Nappa... so adding Kuririn's (also Daizenshuu) 1770 BP to the mix would leave them in a position to beat Nappa swiftly... yet it's contrary to the story.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by PowerLevel Science » Sat Feb 05, 2022 2:17 pm

DRAGON BALL POWER LEVELS:
Scientist view.

Image

Moon mass: 7.347 x 10^22 kg = < 139 (BP necesary to destroy the moon)
Earth mass: 5.972 x 10^24 kg = < 11,000 (comparing moon mass and Earth mass)
Sun mass: 1.989 x 10^30 kg = < 3,170,000,000 (comparing Earth mass and Sun mass)
Dragon Ball Universe: 2 x 10^13 stars



Image

01 - EMPEROR PILAF SAGA:


Emperor Pilaf Arc

Son Goku: 10
Son Goku: 100 [Ozharu]

Kame' Sen' Nin: 100
Yamcha: 8
Gyumao: 97


Image
02 - RED RIBBON ARMY SAGA:


21 Tenkaichi Budokai

Son Goku: 100
Son Goku: 1,000 [Ozharu] Moon buster: 7.347 x 10^22 kg = < 139 (BP necesary to destroy the moon)

Kame' Sen' Nin: 100
Kuririn: 90
Yamcha: 80

LanFan: 80
Giran: 110
Namu: 100


Red Ribbon Army Tower

Ninja Musaraki: 90
Android 8: 140


General Blue Arc

General Blue: 95

Bora: 80


Tao Pai Pai Arc

Son Goku: 145

Tao Pai Pai: 110

KarinSama: 190


Uranai Baba Arc

Akkuman: 120
Son Gohan: 140


Image
03 - PICCOLO DAIMAO SAGA:


22 Tenkaichi Budokai

Son Goku: 180
Kame' Sen' Nin: 139
Kuririn: 100
Yamcha: 90

Tenshinhan: 180
Chaozu: 84
Tsuru' Sen' Nin: 120


Piccolo Daimao Arc

Yajirobe: 120

Tambourine: 130
Cymbal: 90

Piccolo Daimao: 190


Young Piccolo Daimao Arc

Son Goku: 260

Drum: 200

Piccolo Daimao: 260


Popo: 284
KamiSama: 307


23 Tenkaichi Budokai

Son Goku: 385
Super Kame Hame Ha: 910

Chi Chi: 137
Kuririn: 180
Yamcha: 155
Tenshinhan: 225

Tao Pai Pai: 210

Piccolo: 375


Image
04 - SUPER SAIYAN SAGA:


Raditz Arc


Human: 5

Son Goku: 416
Kame Hame Ha: 924

Piccolo: 408
Makankosappo: 1,330

Son Gohan: 1,307

Raditz: 1,500


Kaio Arc

Piccolo: 329
Kame' Sen' Nin: 139
Kuririn: 206
Yamcha: 177
Tenshinhan: 250

Popo: 1,030
KamiSama: 220

KaioSama: 3,500


Saibaman Arc

Son Gohan: 981
Kuririn: 1,083
Piccolo: 1,220

Saibaman: 1,200

Yamcha: 1,480
Tenshinhan: 1,830
Chaozu: 610


Nappa Arc

Son Gohan: 2,800
Kuririn: 1,770
Piccolo: 2,500

Nappa: 4,000

Son Goku: 5,000
Son Goku: 8,100
Kaioken: 16,200 Earth buster: 5.972 x 10^24 kg = < 11,000 (BP necesary to destroy Earth)


Vegeta Arc

Son Goku: 16,000
Kaioken x3: 24,000
Kaioken x4: 32,000

Vegeta IV: 18,000

Yajirobe: 970


Namek Arc

Son Gohan: 1,500
Kuririn: 1,800

Soldiers: 1,000
Kwi: 18,000
Vegeta IV: 24,000
Namekian Warriors: 3,000

Dodoria: 22,000

Zabon: 23,000
Zabon: 28,000 [Transformed]


Guinshao Arc

Son Gohan: 14,000
Kuririn: 13,000
Vegeta IV: 30,000

Yurd: 10,000
Reakkumuiao: 40,000
Buta: 40,000
Yizu: 40,000

Guinshao: 85,000
Guinshao: 120,000
Guinshao: 23,000 [Transfigured]

Son Goku: 5,000
Son Goku: 90,000
Kaioken: 180,000

Nairu: 42,000


Emperor Furiza Arc

Son Gohan: 200,000
Son Gohan: 1,400,000
Kuririn: 75,000

Vegeta IV: 250,000
Vegeta IV: 1,800,000

Piccolo: 1,200,000

Emperor Furiza: 530,000 [First form]
Emperor Furiza: 1,060,000 [Second form]
Emperor Furiza: 1,590,000 [Third form]
Emperor Furiza: 2,120,000
Emperor Furiza: 3,000,000
Emperor Furiza: 60,000,000

Son Goku: 3,000,000
Kaioken x10: 30,000,000
Kaioken x20: 60,000,000
Genki Dama: 75,000,000


Super Saiyan Arc

Emperor Furiza: 120,000,000 [100% max power] [LOG = 1]

Son Goku: 150,000,000 [Super Saiyan] [LOG = 1.1]



Image

05 - RED RIBBON ARMY SAGA - PART II:


Trunks Arc

Trunks: 5

Android Arc

Vegeta: 180,000,000 [Super Saiyan] Freezer x1.5 [LOG = 1 x 1.5]

Lasuli: 270,000,000 Vegeta SSJ x1.5
Lapis: 270,000,000 ~Lasuli

Cell: 405,000,000 Lapis x1.5


Cell Arc

Android 16: 405,000,000 ~Imperfect Cell

Cell: 810,000,000 [SemiPerfect] Imperfect Cell x2
Cell: 1,620,000,000 [Perfect] SemiPerfect Cell x2


Cell Games

Cell: 3,240,000,000 [Super Perfect] Perfect Cell x2 Solar system buster: 1.989 x 10^30 kg = < 3,170,000,000 (BP necesary to destroy solar system ~ Earthx33 ~ Freezer 100% x 33)

Son Gohan: 3,240,000,000 [Super Saiyan 2] ~Super Perfect Cell



Image

06 - FINAL SAGA:


Babidi Arc

Son Goku: 4,050,000,000 [Super Saiyan 2] Son Gohan SSJ 2 x 1.25

Majin Bu Arc

Son Goku: 16,200,000,000 [Super Saiyan 3] Son Goku SSJ 2 x4Multi Solar system buster: 1.989 x 10^30 kg x 5 =< ~Super Perfect Cell x5)

Bu Arc

Gotenks 16,200,000,000 [Super Saiyan] ~Son Goku SSJ 3
Gotenks: 129,600,000,000 [Super Saiyan 3] Gotenks SSJ x8

Son Gohan: 155,520,000,000 Gotenks SSJ3 x1.2

Bu: 171,072,000,000 Ultimate Gohan x1.1

Vegito: 196,732,800,000 Buutenks x1.15 ~Son Goku SSJ3 x12.5 (Daizenshuu 7)
Vegito: 98,366,400,000,000 [Super Saiyan] Base Vegito x50 (LOG [50 x 10^9.3] = 11)


Original Final Arc

Kid Bu: 16,200,000,000 ~Son Goku SSJ3


Image

07 - GOD SAGA:


Beerus Arc

Son Goku: 3,934,656,000 Son Goku SSG / 5,000,000
Son Goku: 196,732,800,000 [Super Saiyan]
Son Goku: 393,465,600,000 [Super Saiyan 2]
Son Goku: 1,573,862,400,000 [Super Saiyan 3]
Son Goku: 19,673,280,000,000,000 [Super Saiyan God] ~Vegito SSJ3 x2.5


Resurrection of F Arc

Son Goku: 1,229,580,000,000,000,000 [Super Saiyan Blue] Son Goku SSG x50 x1.25 (LOG [50 x 10^6 x 1.25 ]= 7.8 )

Emperor Furiza: 1,300,000
Emperor Furiza: 1,536,975,000,000,000,000 [Golden] Son Goku SSB x1.25 (LOG = 7.9)

Evil God Arc

Son Goku: 8,176,707,000 Son Goku base (BoG) x1.25 x1.33 x1.25 (LOG = 3.3)
Son Goku: 2,044,176,750,000,000,000 [Super Saiyan Blue] Son Goku base x50 x5E6 (LOG = 8.0)

Vegito: 40,888,353,500,000,000,000 (SSB Goku + SSB Vegeta) x10 = LOG [(10^8 + 10^8) x 10] = 9.3
Vegito: 10,220,883,750,000,000,000,000,000,000 [Super Saiyan Blue] Vegito base x 5E6 x 50 (LOG [10^9.3 x 5E6 x 50] = 17.7)


Tournament Of Power

Son Goku: 16,312,530,465 Son Goku base (Zamasu arc) x1.33 x1.5 (LOG = -0.1)
Son Goku: 815,626,523,250 [Super Saiyan]
Son Goku: 1,631,253,046,000 [Super Saiyan 2]
Son Goku: 6,525,012,186,000 [Super Saiyan 3]
Son Goku: 8,156,262,325,000,000 [Super Saiyan God]
Son Goku: 407,813,261,620,000,000 [Super Saiyan Blue]
Son Goku: 8,156,265,232,250,000,000 [Super Saiyan Blue mastered]
Son Goku: 1,631,253,046,500,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 [UI] (Goku base x100 trillion = LOG = 20.4 & UI=100 trillion (1E14) x Base)

Lapis: 6,525,012,186,000 ~Son Goku SSJ 3
Frost: 543,751,015,500 Son Goku SSJ / 1.5
Piccolo: 388,393,582,500 Frost / 1.4

Caulifla: 10,875,020,310 Son Goku base / 1.5
Caulifla: 543,751,015,300 [Super Saiyan]

Kale: 1,631,253,046,000 ~Son Goku SSJ 2
Kale: 815,626,523,000,000 [Super Saiyan]
Kale: 815,626,523,000,000,000,000 [Super Saiyan 100% max power]

Kefla: 815,626,523,543,751,000,000 [Super Saiyan] (SSJ Caulifla + BSSJ Kale) x 10 = LOG [ (10^4.6 + 10^8.3) x10] = 10.4

Son Gohan: 815,626,523,543,751,000,000 ~Kefla SSJ (LOG = 10.4)


Broli

Paragus: 4,200

Broli: 2,800
Broli: 24,468,786,975,000,000 Son Goku SSG x3


______________________________

REFERENCES:

1 - Akira Toriyama manga
2 - Kanzenshuu & Herms98 translations
3 - Daizenshuu
4 - GT Perfect Files
5 - NASA
6 - Toyotaro manga

______________________________
Soon, new data will be available for us.
Programmer, scientist, writer and journalist. English is not my first language.

Ultimate power levels list (2007 - 2022):

Power levels studied since 2007.

Chronology: coming soon.

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Magnificent Ponta
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Sat Feb 05, 2022 7:42 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 6:53 pmI noticed the math was following a pattern with the graphics, but I couldn't bother doing the math everytime to be sure. Guess it would've been helpful if someone bothered to double check for you though :lol:.
That's a true word right there! :lol: That comment actually made me reflect that I don't think I've ever seen a true collab on a Power Level set - obviously input is sought here, but there's something weirdly personal about one's own work on BPs (disagreements often seem like nothing so much as an ideological or doctrinal disputation :lol:). Sorry for the general delays in replying - life/work/general tiredness, you know - but thanks very much for coming back to me on these points!
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 6:53 pmHow does this work with folks that can't change their power level? All three Saiyans in the Saiyan Saga do power ups without changing their power levels. Is it represented by their variying capacities? I thought capacity would only change as one changed their power level. Like if you stretch the rubber band your capacity falls, if you train your capacity rises. How can they change their capacity at all if they can't move the rubber band?
A long time ago, when I was on my first journey round the DB corners of the internet, I came across a suggestion that what Nappa was doing when he 'powered up' was "surfacing his ki" (as the person put it back then) - bringing all he had to the surface so it could all be used in combat (with the side effect that it was more detectable to ki sensers as well) - and I liked that idea; it's stayed with me. So in this way, though people like Nappa can't alter their BP, they can nevertheless use what they already have in a more 'combat-appropriate' fashion, and that's what the Capacity change is representing. Since the way Earthlings use ki to raise BP is the really unusual thing in the broader Universal context, I don't see much difficulty in the idea of better using what one has for a given situation in a more limited way, which is basically all it is - they can't shift and transform their ki like Earthlings, but they can change their ki to some extent. I'd likewise have listed those things for Kiwi, Dodoria, Zarbon and the Ginyus if they'd gone through a sequence of that sort (or else their given Capacity percentages can be accounted as the maximum of a very small range, sort of like Raditz's). Unless I've misinterpreted your own listing, those ways of looking at it seem similar to what you yourself were proposing for the differences between their ki when they're fighting or not (so if I've understood rightly, basically this is my way of agreeing :lol:).
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 6:53 pmInterestingly enough, Raditz is mostly surprised by how Goku and Piccolo are concentrating their powers on a certain spot.
I'd suggest that the first two quotes given foreground astonishment that they can change their BPs at will at all; to me that's the most important thing when comparing with Vegeta and Nappa. Raditz's further determination that they're managing it that way seems to me to really be by way of explanation as to how they might be doing what otherwise seems impossible.

I don't mind lists that have Vegeta altering his BP with the Gyarikku Hou, naturally, but all in all, I think I prefer sticking with the sort of listing I have on this, as it combines the advantages (to my mind) of being scrupulously faithful to the various lines of dialogue around this idea along with giving a bit more of an indication on the shape Goku's in.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 6:53 pmI don't remember that quote, nor can I find it. He calls that blast to Vegeta's eye his parting shot, but with the Genki-Dama he's fairly confident it's going to finish the fight.

That line about half of the Genki-Dama being lost always confused me though. If we're not handwaving it as plot armour, then either Kuririn couldn't get all of the power Goku had left or Goku was halluciating with pain.
Apologies, I didn't mean to indicate that Goku used the phrase 'parting shot' in that context; that's merely my own interpretation, drawn from what he does say in Chapter 233 - specifically, after he learns he killed Grandpa Gohan, he thinks Vegeta is too strong and he can't win without using up all his power, and he considers that (therefore) when he dies, he'll get a chance to apologise to Grandpa Gohan in person - upon which he resolves to show Vegeta the power of the Genki Dama. So, by my reading Goku figures he'll die for sure, but will get in his most powerful shot first before he goes, and that may well be able to do something because it's his best shot.

The only things we know absolutely for sure are that the full Genki Dama can take out a somewhat weakened normal Vegeta, and that Goku has no possibility of winning any other way once Vegeta transforms. I could make it somewhat more powerful, I guess (and maybe I could bring down Oozaru Vegeta's capacity a bit just to narrow the gap? Meh), but I think one is handwaving either at the beginning or at the end in some way, and given my interpretation of the foregoing, I guess it just seemed like the best balance? Either way's fine though, really, because neither way's quite 'right', as you say.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 6:53 pmDon't forget to raise enraged Gohan as well though: His feats are clearly better than Vegeta's, and Vegeta recognizes Gohan as stronger than himself.
I won't forget! At the moment I'm considering whether to peg the initial 200,000 as Resting or Braced power; we'll see what comes out as naturally 'nicer looking' (I think I'll keep Kuririn's max at 75,000, as it seems like there's a gargantuan gap between him and the Saiyans at this point); admittedly, I'd given a bit of a rote rage multiplier for Gohan too (good old 1307/710), when there are others close to hand I could use instead, like 2800/981 (or I could just use my brain and decide on something else, I guess). But yeah, definitely upping Gohan in line with Vegeta, is the message here.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 6:53 pmFreeza only has trouble keeping up mostly because of his limited control over his full power, which is also why he gasses out so quickly. (...) At the end of the day, Freeza sort of defeated himself here.
I think this is the part in the broader 'Goku vs. Freeza' discussion where our positions and insights on the fight converge, really. Since Freeza isn't all that far off SSj Goku in simple BP terms, the Capacity dimension is where the gap between the two starts to really yawn. Since Freeza's Capacity is pegged to his 'Normal' state, the 57.5% rating becomes more like 34% at his Maximum BP, which seems to fit the idea that he can't control his power properly or sustain it for long, and he burns himself out very rapidly - as we know, Freeza has never trained to use that power, so it makes sense to me that it should be so much less than that of even a Goku who's struggling with an unfamiliar form. If Freeza had more Capacity, basically, he'd have been able to tangle with Goku longer and he'd have had more overall ki power, and would have been able to use it more effectively to boot - that's really all that I'm trying to roll together. Like you say, Freeza beats himself - Goku can just fight it out and wait for Freeza's power to implode under the intensity of the fight, and I think in and of itself, that's pretty uncontroversial, however the numbers work themselves out.

On the sheer scale of the difference given (which I understand is really your main issue here), this is partly down to Son Goku's SSj Capacity being pegged to his maximum rather than to a putative 'braced' state, which magnifies the difference (though really only in the ways I mentioned above). To be sure, I could've calculated one to narrow the Total Power gap, but I wanted to do it from the maximum state to do justice to representing the fundamentally changed nature of SSj power (which is, moreover, distinctly discernible to others) as a limit-breaking transformation (I do the same for Kaio-Ken, as a limit-breaking technique) - and I also had an eye to the next arc, when Goku and Gohan complete the form, where the Capacity dimension makes all the difference. If that interpretive move places Goku out far ahead of Freeza, so be it - as I've said, I think there are enough reasons to sustain that position, however ferociously Freeza comes at Goku.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 6:53 pmI like Freeza being at like 1/10th of his power, but unless King Cold was hiding a lot of power too I don't think it was that much. Freeza being at like, 50% of his power is probably a good placement. Still got a lot of power being held back.
I tried a different Goroawase reckoning of the pun 'Great Lord King Cold' (why? Because it's more fun than messing about with a calculator), and gave Cold a maximum BP of 56,131,030. If you keep his Capacity rating the same as in the published listing, then he'd have a 'Normal' BP of 40,613,651, and a 'Normal' Total Power of 725,474,211,163,998 (so, not far off Kaio-Ken x10 Goku on Namek in both respects). With Freeza's Cyborg power, he'd equal that Total Power with a BP of just 26,934,628 (so, only about 18% of his new Maximum BP, so I could peg him at 20%); that'd fit Gohan's statement just fine, as that Total Power would also be only around 25% of his old BP - and it'd make sense Freeza would think Cold could materially affect the outcome of the fight, with that Max BP in store.

Thanks again!

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Koitsukai
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:31 pm

How much stronger than SS3 Goku were Super Buu, Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan?

Not even with SS2 Vegeta Z-assisting him he thought he had a shot against Super Buu, so like twice as strong? more? or barely stronger and with Buu's insane abilities, you need to be much stronger to compete?

What comparison could you make, using other arcs' characters with that type of gap between them?

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