Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed Mar 30, 2022 5:58 pm

I agree with Kaboom here that Gohan didn’t kill Cell with half his power, Goku does say Gohan has been holding back, after all. Gohan is definitely stronger here, but it can’t be by much otherwise that blast wouldn’t have hurt him that badly. He even says he overestimated Cell’s power, as opposed to cursing himself for leaving himself open.

I think this is what I have:

SSJ2 Kid Gohan: 135
~ Injured: 65
~ One handed Kamehameha: 97.5
~ Father-Son Kamehameha: 187.5

Cell: 90
~ Buff: 112.5
~ Zenkai: 125
~ Solar Kamehameha: 187.5

It’s a bit tight and I’d like buff Cell to be bigger boost (He’s like, 3x Gohan’s size here) but I don’t like him being that lol or Gohan’s rage boost being so large.

And tying it to my own question earlier:

SSJ Goku: 45
~ Boo Saga: 75
~ SSJ2: 150

SSJ Gohan: 60
~ Boo Saga: 50
~ SSJ2: 100

SSJ Vegeta: 60
~ SSJ2: 120

I was unsure if Vegeta could be that strong given what he says to Gohan when they first run into each other. “I’m stronger and you’re weaker, wonder who’s stronger now…” but I guess it just means Budokai Vegeta > Kid Gohan > Saiyaman Saga Vegeta. He is pretty sure of his superiority in the Budokai, after all.
Koitsukai wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 12:47 pm Golden Warrior: 2,800 M
SSJ Gohan (Boo Saga): 3,200 M (I guess RoF Gohan is around here)
---post zenkai, vs Dabura: 3,800
SS2 Gohan (Boo Saga): 6,400 M (vs Kibito only)
--- hypothetical SS2 if he used it after Kibito healed him: 7,200*
--- hypothetical half-ass SS2: 5,000- 6,000M (with Dabura being a little above that)

SSJ Vegeta (Boo Saga, Pre Majin): 3,800 M
SSJ Goku (Boo Saga): 4,000 M
SSJ2 Vegeta (Boo Saga, Pre Majin): 7,600 M
SSJ2 Goku (Boo Saga): 8,000 (I don't think they are that much stronger than Gohan was. By DBS, it's still considered to be somewhat of a milestone)
Gohan = Vegeta and they’re almost as strong as Goku? Come on now. I think Vegeta needs to be at least a 3,500. He was no match for Goku without Babidi’s spell.

And Gohan doesn’t really need to get a zenkai post Kibito since the line is anime only. He’s definitely not equal to Vegeta, unless you’re counting SSJ2 Vegeta > not quite SSJ2 Gohan as the reason why Vegeta berates him like that.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Wed Mar 30, 2022 6:03 pm

Narratively Cell didn't return to bring tension, he returned to close plotlines as a tool.

The character itself at this point doesn't matter, he doesn't even trade punches with Gohan. Nobody shits it's pants like usual about him(only after Gohan is injured), only Gohan has a passing comment about his power.

He returns for Gohan to be at peace for his actions that lead to Goku's death and for Vegeta to grow as a character. Which is why it's both of them that kill him.

If Toriyama wanted Cell to offer tension he would just make him strong in his return, it makes no sense to go a roundabout way by having Gohan be clearly damaged while offering a direct and straightforward line regarding power. Damn, he even took out one of his arms!

Cell's little boost is more to humiliate him than anything else, he always got back stronger after transforming, finally becoming "perfect". Becomes perfect again but this time, Gohan is superior still. It's the comeuppance he deserves.

I don't really see how composure and supposed unmentioned rage boosts have influence in the outcome of the Kamehameha clash.

Gohan's state of mind was pretty much resolved before the clash. He was suicidal but Goku brought him back. After this Piccolo goes:

Chapter: 415 (DBZ 221), P10.2
Context: after Gohan fires his Kamehameha
Piccolo: “It no use…! Gohan’s ki is weaker after all…”


Finally Gohan didn't surpass Cell, at least alone. Vegeta is instrumental. If Gohan had power to overpower Cell in his final hurrah, he wouldn't need an opening.

Ps: I'm really feeling like re-reading the manga now. One of Vegeta's panels after Cell is defeated is so heavy with emotion.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Mar 30, 2022 8:06 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 5:58 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 12:47 pm Golden Warrior: 2,800 M
SSJ Gohan (Boo Saga): 3,200 M (I guess RoF Gohan is around here)
---post zenkai, vs Dabura: 3,800
SS2 Gohan (Boo Saga): 6,400 M (vs Kibito only)
--- hypothetical SS2 if he used it after Kibito healed him: 7,200*
--- hypothetical half-ass SS2: 5,000- 6,000M (with Dabura being a little above that)

SSJ Vegeta (Boo Saga, Pre Majin): 3,800 M
SSJ Goku (Boo Saga): 4,000 M
SSJ2 Vegeta (Boo Saga, Pre Majin): 7,600 M
SSJ2 Goku (Boo Saga): 8,000 (I don't think they are that much stronger than Gohan was. By DBS, it's still considered to be somewhat of a milestone)
Gohan = Vegeta and they’re almost as strong as Goku? Come on now. I think Vegeta needs to be at least a 3,500. He was no match for Goku without Babidi’s spell.

And Gohan doesn’t really need to get a zenkai post Kibito since the line is anime only. He’s definitely not equal to Vegeta, unless you’re counting SSJ2 Vegeta > not quite SSJ2 Gohan as the reason why Vegeta berates him like that.
Fair enough, Vegeta is really butthurt about Goku's power, 3500 might work better for Vegeta to be so appalled about it.

I always assumed Vegeta gets mad because Gohan is not using his full power(whether it's SS2 or a lame version of it), Goku does say that if he gets mad like vs Cell, he'd be no match for anybody or so.
After all, Gohan was fighting Dabura, who was compared to Cell, so he is holding his own against a dude that should require SS2 to go down. Is Vegeta mad because Gohan isn't just going SS2 and winning? or because his SS2 isn't worth shit anymore?
I don't see why they can't be equals or close to each other, with the edge being Vegeta's SS2, a stronger one or just access to it.

My bad, I have mistaken the power boost after the Z-sword training with Kibito and Shin with the healing in the Tournament. He had only lost energy, VAR decision: no zenkai.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Mar 31, 2022 7:10 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 5:52 pm Numbers for those guys? Feel free to include Gohan with and without rage boosts.
SSJ Goku (Cell Games): 2,000,000,000
SSJ Gohan (Cell Games): 2,800,000,000
SSJ2 Gohan (Cell Games): 7,200,000,000 (He has a rage boost)
Super Perfect Cell: 7,000,000,000

SSJ Gohan (Boo Saga): 2,800,000,000
SSJ Vegeta (Boo Saga, Pre Majin): 2,900,000,000
SSJ Goku (Boo Saga): 3,750,000,000
SSJ2 Gohan (Boo Saga): 5,600,000,000
SSJ2 Vegeta (Boo Saga, Pre Majin): 5,800,000,000
SSJ2 Goku (Boo Saga): 7,500,000,000

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Fri Apr 01, 2022 7:47 pm

LightBing wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 6:03 pm Narratively Cell didn't return to bring tension, he returned to close plotlines as a tool.

The character itself at this point doesn't matter, he doesn't even trade punches with Gohan. Nobody shits it's pants like usual about him(only after Gohan is injured), only Gohan has a passing comment about his power.

He returns for Gohan to be at peace for his actions that lead to Goku's death and for Vegeta to grow as a character. Which is why it's both of them that kill him.

If Toriyama wanted Cell to offer tension he would just make him strong in his return, it makes no sense to go a roundabout way by having Gohan be clearly damaged while offering a direct and straightforward line regarding power. Damn, he even took out one of his arms!

Cell's little boost is more to humiliate him than anything else, he always got back stronger after transforming, finally becoming "perfect". Becomes perfect again but this time, Gohan is superior still. It's the comeuppance he deserves.

I don't really see how composure and supposed unmentioned rage boosts have influence in the outcome of the Kamehameha clash.

Gohan's state of mind was pretty much resolved before the clash. He was suicidal but Goku brought him back. After this Piccolo goes:

Chapter: 415 (DBZ 221), P10.2
Context: after Gohan fires his Kamehameha
Piccolo: “It no use…! Gohan’s ki is weaker after all…”


Finally Gohan didn't surpass Cell, at least alone. Vegeta is instrumental. If Gohan had power to overpower Cell in his final hurrah, he wouldn't need an opening.

Ps: I'm really feeling like re-reading the manga now. One of Vegeta's panels after Cell is defeated is so heavy with emotion.
Weakening Gohan sounds like a way of humiliating and humbling him after how he acted vs Cell. Having him just have a big fight to close the saga probably sounded too obvious for Toriyama too, who likes to subvert expectations.

There’s no doubt Gohan is stronger, he’d definitely have won a straight fight, but there’s no way it would’ve been as easy as last time. That wasn’t Sorbet’s ring Cell used to blast Gohan’s arm, you know…

Eh, Goku tells Gohan word for word he’s holding back from fear of damaging the planet. I think it’s pretty obvious Gohan had some issues right up until the end.

To me sounds like Vegeta just bought time. Cell was ready to kiss them goodbye when Vegeta blasted him and Goku shouted “Now!”. You can’t atomize someone who’s stronger than you just because they were off guard for a second.

I have to say, Vegeta’s little talk with Piccolo and then to himself is probably one of his most underrated moments. People always talk about both of his deaths, but this scene is just as good without him dying or crying.
Koitsukai wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 8:06 pm VAR decision: no zenkai.
I have no doubt that Gohan was a SSJ2 there, but Daizenshuu 2 does say Gohan only lost power as a SSJ2, so I guess you could say he was a pretty half assed one. He didn’t even have the proper aura…
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Sat Apr 02, 2022 1:39 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 7:47 pm Weakening Gohan sounds like a way of humiliating and humbling him after how he acted vs Cell. Having him just have a big fight to close the saga probably sounded too obvious for Toriyama too, who likes to subvert expectations.

There’s no doubt Gohan is stronger, he’d definitely have won a straight fight, but there’s no way it would’ve been as easy as last time. That wasn’t Sorbet’s ring Cell used to blast Gohan’s arm, you know…

Eh, Goku tells Gohan word for word he’s holding back from fear of damaging the planet. I think it’s pretty obvious Gohan had some issues right up until the end.

To me sounds like Vegeta just bought time. Cell was ready to kiss them goodbye when Vegeta blasted him and Goku shouted “Now!”. You can’t atomize someone who’s stronger than you just because they were off guard for a second.
Gohan already had the consequence by getting his dad killed. Cell only returns to the benefit of Gohan and Vegeta, the first to get closure and the second for some character development.

I disagree that Vegeta just bought time. It's 4 panels between the hit and Goku screaming now. The intent is pretty damming.

Toriyama writes this as Gohan and Vegeta defeating Cell, they are the only two who interact with him upon his return.
Regarding killing someone stronger, Goku basically did it with the IT Kamehameha, likewise Vegeta would have done it with the Final Flash.

My question is how do you justify Gohan getting an increase of 50% plus just from that Goku line in a couple of pages? Is there evidence for that line to completely annul Gohan previous statement and his damaged body?
Did something similar ever happen in the manga that I'm forgetting?

Plus if the intent is for a struggle, why damage Gohan at all, if Cell is supposed to be that strong?

I went further ahead to the Boo arc to further prove how weak Cell is:

These two lines tell us Dabra is comparable to Cell, perhaps a bit stronger because of magic.
Vegeta thinks he can get ride of Dabra and this is before he gets the Babidi power up. Even after that, SSJ2 Gohan is still such a big deal that Piccolo isn't completely certain if Vegeta surpassed it.
This paints quite a picture.
SSJ2 Gohan is still relevant in the Boo arc, while Cell is already trash. This goes in line with Toriyama damaging Gohan to give Cell a chance and Vegeta an opportunity to intervene for narrative reasons.

Something I heard before is which Cell are they referencing?
Well, it can only be Super Perfect Cell. Because if it isn't the previous line of Goku saying Gohan still has some power is nothing more than empty motivation since he would have no idea of the power of both Cell and his son at the time.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon Apr 04, 2022 12:49 pm

LightBing wrote: Sat Apr 02, 2022 1:39 pm Gohan already had the consequence by getting his dad killed. Cell only returns to the benefit of Gohan and Vegeta, the first to get closure and the second for some character development.

I disagree that Vegeta just bought time. It's 4 panels between the hit and Goku screaming now. The intent is pretty damming.

Toriyama writes this as Gohan and Vegeta defeating Cell, they are the only two who interact with him upon his return.
Regarding killing someone stronger, Goku basically did it with the IT Kamehameha, likewise Vegeta would have done it with the Final Flash.

My question is how do you justify Gohan getting an increase of 50% plus just from that Goku line in a couple of pages? Is there evidence for that line to completely annul Gohan previous statement and his damaged body?
Did something similar ever happen in the manga that I'm forgetting?

Plus if the intent is for a struggle, why damage Gohan at all, if Cell is supposed to be that strong?

I went further ahead to the Boo arc to further prove how weak Cell is:

These two lines tell us Dabra is comparable to Cell, perhaps a bit stronger because of magic.
Vegeta thinks he can get ride of Dabra and this is before he gets the Babidi power up. Even after that, SSJ2 Gohan is still such a big deal that Piccolo isn't completely certain if Vegeta surpassed it.
This paints quite a picture.
SSJ2 Gohan is still relevant in the Boo arc, while Cell is already trash. This goes in line with Toriyama damaging Gohan to give Cell a chance and Vegeta an opportunity to intervene for narrative reasons.

Something I heard before is which Cell are they referencing?
Well, it can only be Super Perfect Cell. Because if it isn't the previous line of Goku saying Gohan still has some power is nothing more than empty motivation since he would have no idea of the power of both Cell and his son at the time.
Gohan was still cocky when Cell came back, enough to not even acknowledge Cell’s new power and have proper caution until it was too late. He hadn’t learned his lesson yet.

That’s dramatic pacing. These 4 panels are just the time Cell looks back and gets overwhelmed. Goku and Vegeta killed suppressed variants of Cell with super powerful attacks, so I’m not sure if it’s the same thing. Sure, Gohan killed Cell with a Kamehameha too, but Cell’s situation reminds me more of Goku vs Piccolo Jr or Vegeta, which ended with the losers being overwhelmed with little to no damage. Could just be an inconsistency though.

Gohan’s power is shown to rise by even hundreds of times just depending on his mood. He was insecure and afraid until Goku told him to let go and just put his mind into it.

I think that’s question is self defeating, since there actually was a beam struggle. It probably just wasn’t a straight fight because Toriyama likes to subvert expectations.

That scene in the Boo Saga always made me wonder. I don’t think Goku had any specific iteration of Cell in mind, and rather just mean to consider say Dabra was someone in between SSJ1 and 2, just like Perfect Cell’s general power was. And then when Dabra is “stronger than expected”, it’s because of his magic.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Apr 04, 2022 3:02 pm

The Gohan situation had a few stages:

-He was FP and cocky when Cell returned.
-Then he got one arm destroyed, he is demoralized and has no confidence in himself and just embraces death. This is when the half-my-ki-left quote takes place, before the fight.
-Then Goku convinces him to fight back, and he powers up and the beam struggle happens. He says he is not strong enough, he is still not sure he can win. Gohan's ki is higher than when he said he was only at half power, but can still get bigger because he is not too sure of himself.*
-He is still not overpowering Cell, not until Goku tells him about the DBs and to stop worrying about Earth... right then Vegeta attacks Cell, and Gohan goes FP and Cell disappears.

* Toriyama said ki depends on other stuff like courage and focus. Gohan was not confident or focused when he admitted to be at half power, he still had some hung ups even during the beam struggle. So, it stands to reason that once he regains his confidence and the proper mindset, he is going to have more ki available.
LightBing wrote: Sat Apr 02, 2022 1:39 pm
My question is how do you justify Gohan getting an increase of 50% plus just from that Goku line in a couple of pages? Is there evidence for that line to completely annul Gohan previous statement and his damaged body?
Did something similar ever happen in the manga that I'm forgetting?
This happened in the Nappa vs Goku fight. Vegeta told him to get his shit together and he went from getting trashed to trade blows with Goku.
Gohan's is the best example of what Toriyama said about ki, shouki and yuuki. He was injured, suicidal and afraid, thus weaker, and ended up being confident and stronger.
Gohan's rage boost can be explained with this. He gets full access to his ki reserve only when his mind and heart are aligned, usually getting there through anger.

Bonus thought: Goku is somebody that usually fights people stronger than himself and does much better than expected, he is courageous and always focused. That might explain why only he uses KK.

RE: DABURA.
I always assumed Goku meant Dabura is not that big a deal because no matter which Cell he was compared to, he is still below a SS2 from the Cell Games. Something he though Gohan could easily top, like himself.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Tue Apr 05, 2022 3:02 pm

I'm starting to repeat myself so this will be my last post about it.

I agree that mental and others factors have influence, in this case at best it's minuscule. The Nappa example is good but I don't think it was a 50% difference which in Toriyama writing is "shit your pants" difference.

Gohan lost Ki due to injury, he took a killing hit without defending himself even losing an arm. You do not regain Ki from injuries and Gohan without a doubt was injured.

Then, whatever mental hit existed wasn't significant, since as stated by Piccolo right before the Kamehameha(refer to one of my previous post for the quote), he still didn't have enough Ki.
I'll repeat Piccolo says this after Gohan goes from suicidal to willing to fight! That's most of whatever hypothetical influence is mental state had.

Finally regarding Vegeta, his role is akin to Goku holding Raditz.
Narrative is supreme and Vegeta is essential for the outcome like Goku was even if holding someone 3 times stronger than you while you're injured is a stretch.

Anyway agree to disagree, I have nothing more to add.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Thu Apr 14, 2022 10:12 am

Trying my hand a bit on this Dabra ~ SPC thing.

Cell Games

SSJ Goku: 45

SSJ Gohan: 54
~ Angry: 72
~ SSJ2: 144
~ Kamehameha: 160
~ Weakened: 60
~ One handed Kamehameha: 90
~ Father-Son Kamehameha: 216

Cell: 50
~ Vs Gohan: 56.25
~ Full power: 75
~ Kamehameha: 112.5
~ Weakened: 60
~ Giant: 90
~ Zenkai: 105
~ Solar Kamehameha: 157.5

Boo Saga

SSJ Gohan: 50
~ SSJ2: 100

SSJ Vegeta: 60
~ SSJ2: 120

SSJ Goku: 75
~ SSJ2: 150

Dabra: 105

Tried lessening the gap between CG Goku and Gohan to stick closer with Daizenshuu 2 saying Gohan didn't lose any power in Base and SSJ1. It's a bit of a tight placement for Dabra, and I don't see much of a need to place him in SPC's level when Goku was only doing a ballpark estimative. Still, looks like any interation of Cell isn't even worth giving the time of the day for Goku or Vegeta.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Sat Apr 16, 2022 6:03 am

This would be my list assuming Dabura ~ Super Perfect Cell and Gohan battled him as a Super Saiyan 2.

Cell Games

SSJ Goku: 35

SSJ Gohan: 50
~ SSJ2: 200
~ Kamehameha (vs. Cell): 260
~ Weakened: 90
~ One-Handed Kamehameha: 145
~ One-Handed Kamehameha (Powered Up): 185
~ Father-Son Kamehameha: 340

Perfect Cell: 38
~ Full Speed: 48
~ Full Power: 80
~ Kamehameha: 176
~ Buff: 100
~ Super Perfect Cell: 140
~ Nonchalant Kamehameha: 190
~ Solar Kamehameha: 240

Buu Saga

SSJ Gohan: 37
~ SSJ2: 148
~ Enraged SSJ2: 260

SSJ Goku: 52
~ SSJ2: 208

SSJ Vegeta: 44
~ SSJ2: 176

Dabura: 140

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Apr 30, 2022 11:18 am

How much stronger is Perfect Cell than SS Goku from when he fought #19?

We know the Freeza arc started around 20,000 and ended up at 150M. So, like 6,000x stronger from beginning to end.
What about the Cell arc? what type of boost would Goku need to beat Perfect Cell? or to be on his own Cell Games SS level? 10x? 20x? 200x?
What about Super Perfect Cell?
What type of boost would 1st form Cell need to beat SS2 Gohan?

Same question but about the Buu arc.

How many times stronger is Buuhan than Majin Vegeta? how many times stronger than Dabura?

How many times stronger is Super Vegito than Buuhan? manga only, of course. In the anime, his base is already above Buuhan.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun May 01, 2022 2:36 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 11:18 am How much stronger is Perfect Cell than SS Goku from when he fought #19?

We know the Freeza arc started around 20,000 and ended up at 150M. So, like 6,000x stronger from beginning to end.
What about the Cell arc? what type of boost would Goku need to beat Perfect Cell? or to be on his own Cell Games SS level? 10x? 20x? 200x?
What about Super Perfect Cell?
What type of boost would 1st form Cell need to beat SS2 Gohan?

Same question but about the Buu arc.

How many times stronger is Buuhan than Majin Vegeta? how many times stronger than Dabura?

How many times stronger is Super Vegito than Buuhan? manga only, of course. In the anime, his base is already above Buuhan.
Was he? I remember Buuhan saying he was going to get serious at the end of the episode and then Vegetto turns Super Saiyan.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by SoulSurj » Tue May 03, 2022 2:53 am

Koitsukai wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 11:18 am How much stronger is Perfect Cell than SS Goku from when he fought #19?

We know the Freeza arc started around 20,000 and ended up at 150M. So, like 6,000x stronger from beginning to end.
What about the Cell arc? what type of boost would Goku need to beat Perfect Cell? or to be on his own Cell Games SS level? 10x? 20x? 200x?
What about Super Perfect Cell?
What type of boost would 1st form Cell need to beat SS2 Gohan?

Same question but about the Buu arc.

How many times stronger is Buuhan than Majin Vegeta? how many times stronger than Dabura?

How many times stronger is Super Vegito than Buuhan? manga only, of course. In the anime, his base is already above Buuhan.
Goku got a 10× boost training in the time chamber and a 50× boost from Ss, which is 500×. We also know Ss Gohan was above Goku but still needed Ss 2. So, definitely over 1000×, assuming you mean a healthy fully powered up Goku.

From where he was against 19, Goku would need to be over 10× stronger to beat his Cell Games counterpart and over 30× stronger to beat Perfect Cell. About 40× to be over Super Perfect.

1st form Cell would probably need a boost over 100× to beat Gohan. All of Cell's forms mirror Ss forms but don't give him nearly as much power between forms.

Buuhan was stronger than Buutenks who was over 16× stronger than Ss 3 Goku. So, Buuhan was over 64× stronger than Majin Vegeta and over 96× stronger than Dabura.

Vegito has been stated to be stronger than a Ss 3 in the Buu Arc so his base form is over 3,200× base Goku and Buutenks is over twice that amount. Since Buuhan's absorption is addition he's closer to Buutenks in power and more or less 25× weaker than Super Vegito.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sat May 07, 2022 6:05 pm

Is the SSJG multiplier smaller after Battle of Gods? We tend to assume Goku doesn't get 1,000,000x stronger or anything anymore out of minimalism, but is that even suggested anywhere?

Koitsukai wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 11:18 am How much stronger is Perfect Cell than SS Goku from when he fought #19?

We know the Freeza arc started around 20,000 and ended up at 150M. So, like 6,000x stronger from beginning to end.
What about the Cell arc? what type of boost would Goku need to beat Perfect Cell? or to be on his own Cell Games SS level? 10x? 20x? 200x?
What about Super Perfect Cell?
What type of boost would 1st form Cell need to beat SS2 Gohan?

Same question but about the Buu arc.

How many times stronger is Buuhan than Majin Vegeta? how many times stronger than Dabura?

How many times stronger is Super Vegito than Buuhan? manga only, of course. In the anime, his base is already above Buuhan.
Piccolo is a bit stronger than Sick Goku, and doubled his power by merging with Kami. Then Cell is double Piccolo for tanking his blast, and doubles his power against by absorbing 17 as he tanks 16's punch. It's not clear how strong Cell when he became perfect, but I dare to say another 2x boost since nobody suspected he was suppressed. Then he gets over 2x stronger since he went from below Super Vegeta to tanking his kick. Ultra Trunks and 50% SSJ Goku are stronger than Cell by a unknown margin, I dare to say Goku is 1.5x Cell now. He then doubles his power by going 100%. I don't know what's the bare minimum for FP Cell vs Goku, so let's say 2x yet again. I have it at 3-4x though. Add all that and the minimum is (checks calculator) over 200x times. I have it at 277.77x: SSJ Goku is at 360M and FP Perfect Cell is 100B.

Technically the Freeza Saga started at 1,500 with Gohan and Kuririn, so it's a 100,000x difference :wink:

Cell Games Goku is at 37.5B for me, so that's a 250x boost for Goku, I'd say nearly 100x is the bare minimum. He needs needs to get a couple times stronger to deal with SPC.

1st form Cell is at 540 million for me. SSJ2 Gohan is at 180 billion without rage, so some 333.33x stronger.


I have the gaps in the Boo Saga somewhat smaller, but only because I've tampered the SSJ multiplier for fusions, otherwise Gohan-Boo would easily be millions of times Majin Vegeta and Dabra. As I have it though, Gohan-Boo (26.25T) is only 105 and 150x above Majin Vegeta and Dabra, respectively.

Even in the manga I think Vegetto ends up being above Gohan-Boo since he's above Gokhan, who'd flatten Gotenks-Boo in an instant according to Old Kaioshin. Since the SSJ boost isn't all that high though he's only 2-3x stronger.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by SoulSurj » Sun May 08, 2022 3:25 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 6:05 pm Is the SSJG multiplier smaller after Battle of Gods? We tend to assume Goku doesn't get 1,000,000x stronger or anything anymore out of minimalism, but is that even suggested anywhere?
No, the multiplier is the same as it always was but it was never high to begin with. A lot of people forget that Goku received energy from multiple people and that made his power level rise overtime, while he was using Ssg. The "1,000,000× multiplier," which should really be lower because we don't even know if the ritual powered up Goku that far beyond fusion level, comes from the ritual raising Goku's power level. The multiplier by itself is about 500× base because Base Broly, who was stronger than Ss Vegeta, got a 10× boost and surpassed Ssg Goku and Ssg Vegeta.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sun May 08, 2022 7:29 pm

SoulSurj wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 3:25 pm No, the multiplier is the same as it always was but it was never high to begin with. A lot of people forget that Goku received energy from multiple people and that made his power level rise overtime, while he was using Ssg. The "1,000,000× multiplier," which should really be lower because we don't even know if the ritual powered up Goku that far beyond fusion level, comes from the ritual raising Goku's power level. The multiplier by itself is about 500× base because Base Broly, who was stronger than Ss Vegeta, got a 10× boost and surpassed Ssg Goku and Ssg Vegeta.
Good catch on Goku being stronger even before the ritual. Gohan says Goku’s Ki has risen like never before, so SSJ Goku is already stronger than SSJ3 Goku vs Beerus. Vegeta also says he want to go next, but I’m not sure if he’s saying that because of Goku’s current power or because of the hype.

I dare to say it’s definitely higher than 500x though, unless SSJ3 has been nerfed from being 400x time base. Vegeta felt compelled to skip SSJ2 entirely and go straight to God, so Broly might have outstripped even that already.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by SoulSurj » Mon May 09, 2022 12:04 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 7:29 pm Good catch on Goku being stronger even before the ritual. Gohan says Goku’s Ki has risen like never before, so SSJ Goku is already stronger than SSJ3 Goku vs Beerus. Vegeta also says he want to go next, but I’m not sure if he’s saying that because of Goku’s current power or because of the hype.

I dare to say it’s definitely higher than 500x though, unless SSJ3 has been nerfed from being 400x time base. Vegeta felt compelled to skip SSJ2 entirely and go straight to God, so Broly might have outstripped even that already.
I'm not sure if the power from the failed ritual stuck with Goku but we do know that the ritual did power him up overall, making his Ss equal to his Ssg power level and his base form 50× weaker than that. Either way, Goku's base was much stronger by the time Ssg ran out.

Yeah, Broly probably was above Ss2 and it's possible that the ssg multiplier could be over 500× but I don't want to label it too high because of base form fusion scaling above normal Ssg and even Ssb.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Mon May 09, 2022 12:46 pm

Yeah, the false SSG ritual could explain why SSG can look more impressive on its introduction.

But I think it's more than 500x. A 500x, or so, is actually what I think Vegeta's SS2 got in BoG, to surpass SS3 Goku. In fact, less than that isn't enough to surpass Goku, who by the end of the Buu arc was stronger than he was.
We know SSG can oneshot a SS3 level character like Trunks' FP SS2, so it's not just another recoloring, or slightly above SS3. At least twice that is required to easily dispose of a SS3 tier character, in a similar fashion to what Beerus did to Goku. This would mean SSG gives a +800x boost. I'd say 1,000x base to have round numbers, also because I guess Goku was suppressed when he oneshot Trunks, he only reverted him back to base, he didn't put him to sleep.

Does it sparkle with what was seen in Broly? Let's see.
With a 1,000x boost for SSG, SS Vegeta and Base Broly could've been fighting around 100x Vegeta's base, and with a 10x boost, Broly gets to the 1,000 mark.
The "problem" is that SS is 50x base, not 100x. But we've seen Vegeta not giving a fuck about multipliers in BoG and in the FT arc, so I can buy that after training with Whis for so long, Geets can use all that power he had in BoG in SS2, in SS form by now, and actually not even that much power is needed here. He wasn't all that riled up, so he could've been using less than what was seen in BoG but more than what was seen in Z for a SS. So maybe a 100x boost as a SS.
Since it's a Toriyama movie, and he had spoken before about how SS could harness the full scope of all the blond forms, it's also possible that Vegeta is no longer needing SS2 to break the 50x wall of regular SS.
(Also, Toei has a knack for mixing up SS and SS2 and not being clear about which form is being used).

Something like:

SS Vegeta: 100
Base Broly: 80
Yellow Eyes Base Broly: 150 and rising
Initial Ikari: 1500 and rising
SSG: 1000

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue May 10, 2022 12:57 am

I always felt that SSG being a 1,000 multiplier from base was good and it makes SSB a 50,000 multiplier, which is also a good number.

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