Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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Saiyan007
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Saiyan007 » Sun May 22, 2022 7:03 pm

Noah wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 10:27 pm Ignoring the fact that Heroes tries to push SSJ4 and Blue as equals... How would you guys think Super Saiyan God stands if was put to compare with battle powers in GT?

Part of me thinks God > SSJ4 Gogeta, but probably is not that high.
SSJG is above anything in GT based on feats/statements shown in Super's very first arc.

Don't get me wrong GT is strong since we have base Goku shaking heaven from hell and SSJ4 Gogeta is astronomically above bast Goku but SSJG being stated to be able to physically destroy the universe as a side effect of his fight with beerus is just far far too much for even ssj4 Gogeta to handle

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Kaboom » Sun May 22, 2022 9:20 pm

Noah wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 10:27 pmIgnoring the fact that Heroes tries to push SSJ4 and Blue as equals... How would you guys think Super Saiyan God stands if was put to compare with battle powers in GT?
Super Saiyan God has only had its impact and value constantly downgraded since Super started, and subsequently so has Blue. People tend to latch onto the universe-threatening shockwaves from Goku and Beerus' fight as some sort of hard-lined indication that everyone in Super is worlds above everyone in everything else, but that whole fiasco is mostly just a bizarre outlier. The longer Super went on, the more that fight's meaning dissolved away and the less sense it made.

On the flip-side, people also have a tendency towards ignorance about GT and its own power scale (the infamous "Super Vegetto ~ SS4 Goku" thing being a common example), leading them to underestimate its heaviest hitters. How is Beerus and Goku gradually threatening the universe by creating shockwaves that aren't dangerous to Earth but somehow get more destructive the farther out they go (which isn't really how shockwaves work) somehow considered so much more impressive than Super Yi Xing Long gradually threatening the universe through a spread of Minus Energy caused by him just existing? Neither are indications of direct or immediate "universe busting" capability like they tend to be treated.

Any way you slice it, what's pretty much undeniable is that the power scales for all three series (what with Super's anime and manga each being their own continuity) are total messes, and basically anything is possible. Personally I've been in the "SS4 and SS Blue are rough equivalents" camp myself for a while, and I don't see anyone short of the Destroyers or Angels being able to tango with SS4 Gogeta.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Mon May 23, 2022 12:47 pm

Draconic wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 1:03 am I'd say that the God forms are stronger than Super Saiyan 4 and it's fusions, but the GT characters are much stronger in base form than Super characters that they'd be able to match the God forms. In this case, SSJ4 Gogeta would be competitive in Super at least until the ToP.

I have my multipliers as such:
Base - 1
Great Ape - 10
SSJ - 50
SSJ2 - 100
SSJ3 - 400
SSJ4 - 500 (Great Ape x Super Saiyan)
SSG - 600
SSB - 1200

As you can see, a base Saiyan with a base of 2 would be competitive with a Blue in SSJ4 and above a God, even though God is above 4 as a transformation. And this isn't taking into account things like techniques, combat experience or rage boosts.
I agree that SS4, the form, is comparable to the SSG form, and that SS4 Goku is comparable to SSB Goku due to the stronger base form.
SS4 was said to have a similar boost to a SS fusion, and SSG was implied to be beyond that, so 500 and 600 for each seems fine to me, at least the difference between the forms. SS fusion = SS4 = SSG, also works for me.

I'm not sure about the multipliers, though, because SSG has done stuff proving to be more than 2x SS3, like effortlessly oneshotting Trunks.
SS4 was also much stronger than SS3. With Baby needing a 10x boost to fight SS4, while being stronger than SS3.

I think SS4 Gogeta meets his match by the end of the FT arc, with the potara fusions. If Goku with SSB and SS4 is equally strong, then a SS4 and a SSB fusion should be similar, so Gogeta being a big player in the FT arc sounds plausible. By the ToP, I think he is part of that nebulous group of fighters way above SSB tier but below Jiren (Zamasu, Vegito, Kefla, Toppo, SS Broly)

Noah wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 10:27 pmIgnoring the fact that Heroes tries to push SSJ4 and Blue as equals... How would you guys think Super Saiyan God stands if was put to compare with battle powers in GT?
SS4 and SSG were compared to potara fusion. Let's not delve into who gets the shorter end of the stick, it's not crystal clear anyway, so let's have them as equals.
SSG would be probably below SS4 Goku, because his base form, at least in the manga, isn't as strong as in GT.

The form should be above SS4, but Goku in GT was stronger, so I guess SSG would be doing a little worse than SS4 Goku. Struggling to beat Ohzaru VB, but smart enough to not feed Super 17 so much ki. Dead in the water against Ih Shenron.
If GT Goku would've gotten SSG, then, he'd be stronger than Baby, would not need to use ki attacks on Super 17, and might be on par with Ih Shenron. And need SSB to fight Omega evenly, he said he was 10x stronger than before, and that's the SSB boost.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed May 25, 2022 8:54 am

Saiyan007 wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 7:03 pm SSJG is above anything in GT based on feats/statements shown in Super's very first arc.

Don't get me wrong GT is strong since we have base Goku shaking heaven from hell and SSJ4 Gogeta is astronomically above bast Goku but SSJG being stated to be able to physically destroy the universe as a side effect of his fight with beerus is just far far too much for even ssj4 Gogeta to handle
I agree. GT doesn’t trail far behind, on top of the feats you and Kaboom mentioned, GT does follow from the Z anime which has Gohan-Boo threatening to destroy the universe, so Base Goku should already be universal. But to almost destroy the universe as collateral damage… Only Super Yi Xing Long and Gogeta have feats on this level.

I’d say Beerus and SSJG Goku from BoGs are comparable to SSJ4 Gogeta and Omega Shenron, far surpassing the likes of SSJ4 Goku. As soon as SSJB enters the picture GT is dust though.


And for the multiplier… I don’t think SSJ4 even has one. GT Perfect Files call it a potential unlock. Granted they say that about every form, but in GT it did end up being the peak of Saiyan power, and the series gives us little information on the multiplier. Closest thing we have is a guidebook or promotional pamphlet comparing it to fusion, which I take to be about the boost rather than sheer power.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by SoulSurj » Fri May 27, 2022 12:24 pm

Noah wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 10:27 pm Ignoring the fact that Heroes tries to push SSJ4 and Blue as equals... How would you guys think Super Saiyan God stands if was put to compare with battle powers in GT?

Part of me thinks God > SSJ4 Gogeta, but probably is not that high.
IIRC... Heroes only placed its version of the two Gokus at the same level, not the forms. GT has higher power levels but Super has better feats. GT Goku is almost 400× stronger than Super's at the start and GT Goku gets way higher power ups throughout the series. Super doesn't really reach GT's highest levels of power numerically so Ss4 Gogeta would be overkill if we're discussing power levels alone. On the flip side... Super is given much better feats, even if some don't make sense, so its feats make it seem more powerful.

As for the form multipliers... Ss4 and UI Sign are comparable to each other, as both forms seem to reach nearly the same height in power away from base form fusion. God and Blue are no where near 4. Their multipliers are still lower than base form fusion, while 4's was compared to Goku and Vegeta fusing and turning Ss. For example... if DBS Broly's Goku turned Ss4, he'd be about equal to Ss Gogeta in terms of power and have the ability to boost the Kamehameha by 10×.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Jun 02, 2022 5:08 pm

How strong do you guys have Dende throughout the whole series?

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by MisteryOne » Fri Jun 03, 2022 9:01 am

SoulSurj wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 12:24 pm
Noah wrote: Wed May 18, 2022 10:27 pm Ignoring the fact that Heroes tries to push SSJ4 and Blue as equals... How would you guys think Super Saiyan God stands if was put to compare with battle powers in GT?

Part of me thinks God > SSJ4 Gogeta, but probably is not that high.
IIRC... Heroes only placed its version of the two Gokus at the same level, not the forms.
It's hard to say, since the manga implies that both Gokus are around the same level even on base form. But if we go by the arcade alone, Xeno Goku himself is way stronger than GT Goku (as SS1 Xeno Gogeta defeated the very same Omega Shenron that fought SS4 GT Gogeta) yet slighly weaker than his Blue counterpart, so by logic post-TOP DBS Goku would be astronomically stronger than GT Goku (if using Blue/4 respectively)

That doesn't really help when it comes to the forms themselves tho...
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Jun 03, 2022 9:21 am

How do you guys think the Makkankosappo works by now?

When introduced, it amplifies the power thrice. That was like 15 years ago, Piccolo got boosts, merges, a new form, and lots of training.
There are three ways to improve this technique, (1) reducing the charging time, (2) augmenting the boost of the attack. (3) both, charging it faster and with more power.
How strong is a ToP Makkankosappo? is it still 3x stronger than Piccolo only he charges it much faster?
I doubt he failed to make it stronger after all this time and improvement. After merging with Nail, it should be 5x, to me. And stronger after his final merger.

How strong do you guys think it was during Namek, after becoming one with Kami, and during the ToP?

ZombieVito wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 5:08 pm How strong do you guys have Dende throughout the whole series?
Probably around 200 or so, like Monaito. He is not a fighter and doesn't train, so 200 might be a highball.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Fri Jun 03, 2022 10:00 am

Koitsukai wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 9:21 am How do you guys think the Makkankosappo works by now?
I think you can scale it, in the anime at least.

Piccolo was beating SS2 Gohan during their training session. I know folks put Piccolo below the base Saiyans due to the following episodes but that's clearly an outlier. If we assume Piccolo is marginally stronger than SS2 Gohan, the Makankosappo would be comparable to Ultimate Gohan, so it depends on how big you think the gap between SS2 and Ultimate Gohan is.

Though Piccolo's power is inconsistent. In the manga he seems comparable to Ultimate Gohan. In Superhero, he now seems below SS Gohan again.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Fri Jun 03, 2022 11:08 am

ZombieVito wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 5:08 pm How strong do you guys have Dende throughout the whole series?
I remember some card games placing Moori at 5,000 and while it looks like a bit too much for the old man, I like it as Dende’s level.

At the very least I think he’s around the 1,000 mark. Monaito is a fairly weak Namekian at 200. Subtract how pathetic he is and add Dende being young and having his potential unlocked by Guru and it’s a good placement overall.
Koitsukai wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 9:21 am How do you guys think the Makkankosappo works by now?

When introduced, it amplifies the power thrice. That was like 15 years ago, Piccolo got boosts, merges, a new form, and lots of training.
There are three ways to improve this technique, (1) reducing the charging time, (2) augmenting the boost of the attack. (3) both, charging it faster and with more power.
How strong is a ToP Makkankosappo? is it still 3x stronger than Piccolo only he charges it much faster?
I doubt he failed to make it stronger after all this time and improvement. After merging with Nail, it should be 5x, to me. And stronger after his final merger.

How strong do you guys think it was during Namek, after becoming one with Kami, and during the ToP?
Like any other technique, it depends on plot several factors. I was never even sure of how most techniques work, but it probably works by tapping on reserves and stuff. That would explain why the Kamehameha isn’t many times Goku’s power every time he uses it. The thing with the Makkankosappo was that the charging time was a weakness, just like it is with the Genki-Dama. The “more charging = more Ki” interpretation seems to be what stuck though.

The Makkankosappo seemed to work the same say in Z. Piccolo uses what seems to be a two-handed variant in the Saiyan Saga, but it was uncharged so it wasn’t even a 2x boost (taking him from >1,830 to 3,500). Piccolo giving preference to the Light Grenade vs Cell seems to suggest it’s stronger than the SBC too, or at least faster to charge.

I think sometime between the Boo Saga and the ToP Piccolo developed the Makkankosappo into this technique that can pretty much be infinitely amplified with enough charging time. Vs Frost it was really powerful, but nowhere as powerful as the Blue-level blast we see in the ToP.

Now the multiplier. Piccolo seemed comparable to Base Gohan throughout the ToP and they’re both weaker than Base Goku. Gohan bought time for Piccolo to charge it as much as he could and it pierces clean through Saonel. Placing the U6 Namekians on SSJG level, it’s easy to see the Makkankosappo as well over 1,000x Piccolo.
Probably around 200 or so, like Monaito. He is not a fighter and doesn't train, so 200 might be a highball.
I think Dende is definitely stronger than Monaito since healing is Ki-based. Monaito even said he was too weak to heal Goku and Vegeta properly.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Jun 03, 2022 11:29 am

Koitsukai wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 9:21 am How do you guys think the Makkankosappo works by now?

When introduced, it amplifies the power thrice. That was like 15 years ago, Piccolo got boosts, merges, a new form, and lots of training.
There are three ways to improve this technique, (1) reducing the charging time, (2) augmenting the boost of the attack. (3) both, charging it faster and with more power.
How strong is a ToP Makkankosappo? is it still 3x stronger than Piccolo only he charges it much faster?
I doubt he failed to make it stronger after all this time and improvement. After merging with Nail, it should be 5x, to me. And stronger after his final merger.

How strong do you guys think it was during Namek, after becoming one with Kami, and during the ToP?

ZombieVito wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 5:08 pm How strong do you guys have Dende throughout the whole series?
Probably around 200 or so, like Monaito. He is not a fighter and doesn't train, so 200 might be a highball.
But Monaito can't even heal properly.

Piccolo's Makankosappo is a beast now. It can push him from base tier to hurt fighters in the low to mid SSB tier.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by SoulSurj » Sat Jun 04, 2022 2:03 pm

MisteryOne wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 9:01 am It's hard to say, since the manga implies that both Gokus are around the same level even on base form. But if we go by the arcade alone, Xeno Goku himself is way stronger than GT Goku (as SS1 Xeno Gogeta defeated the very same Omega Shenron that fought SS4 GT Gogeta) yet slighly weaker than his Blue counterpart, so by logic post-TOP DBS Goku would be astronomically stronger than GT Goku (if using Blue/4 respectively)

That doesn't really help when it comes to the forms themselves tho...
That's why I specifically mentioned Heroes making it's own versions of Goku. If we scale 4 and blue from GT and Super alone there's no way for blue's multiplier to be comparable to 4's. Blue is more comparable to the Golden Great Ape than it is to 4 at this point. Back when the Xeno Goku vs blue Goku fight happened the scaling might have been considered differently.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Jun 13, 2022 10:35 pm

Power level of King Vegeta from the Broly DBS movie?

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Kaboom » Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:06 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 10:35 pmPower level of King Vegeta from the Broly DBS movie?
Still somewhere up around 10,000, I'd think. From what I can tell, nuBardock is the only character who's presumably had his power level nerfed in the various lousy new material.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Jun 14, 2022 6:00 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 10:35 pm Power level of King Vegeta from the Broly DBS movie?
Daizenshuu 7 calling him the strongest Saiyan of his time still applies, though it’s harder to gauge him without 10k Bardock as a measure stick. I’d still put Vegeta in the 10,000 mark though.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Jun 14, 2022 6:15 pm

Broly was born with a power level of 10,000 so if Daizenshuu says he was still stronger then I will settle with 11,000.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Kaboom » Tue Jun 14, 2022 8:51 pm

Well I forgot that li'l nuBroli in the new movie also measured at "only" 900-something himself, instead of his original Z self's 10,000 at birth... so I guess nuBardock wasn't the only nerfed character. Still doesn't really say anything about King Vegeta though.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Jun 14, 2022 9:19 pm

Kaboom wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 8:51 pm Well I forgot that li'l nuBroli in the new movie also measured at "only" 900-something himself, instead of his original Z self's 10,000 at birth... so I guess nuBardock wasn't the only nerfed character. Still doesn't really say anything about King Vegeta though.
Actually it is still 10,000. I think an official preview confirmed it.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sat Jun 18, 2022 8:40 am

New Dragon Ball Power Level ignoring official/scouter numbers...

Back from a long break and these numbers I feel are my most definitive attempts.


Basic Battle Power List
Average human child: 1-1.5
Average human male: 3-5
Average human female: 2-3
Oozaru: Base x10


Search for the Dragon Balls
Goku:
Base: 20
Oozaru: 200
Bulma: 2
Oolong: 1.5
Puar: 1
Yamcha: 17
Ox-King: 80
Chi-Chi: 14

Muten Roshi:
  • Base: 139
  • MAX Power: 1,000
Pterodactyl: 8
Bear Thief: 12
T-rex: 10
Monster Carrot: 10
Emperor Pilaf: 1.5
Shu: 2
Mai: 3


21st Tenkaichi Budokai
Goku:
  • Base: 16 (no tail; pre-training), 100 (no tail; post-training), 150 (tail; post-training)
  • Oozaru: 1500
Krillin:
  • Base: 12 (pre-training), 100 (post-training)
Yamcha: 40
Jackie Chun:
  • Base: 150
  • MAX Power: 1080
Lunch:
  • Blue-hair: 2
  • Blonde: 5
Bacterian: 50
Ranfan: 6
Namu: 127
Giran: 50
Preliminary fighters: 20-30


Red Ribbon Army/Uranai Baba
Goku:
  • Base: 175 (pre-Korin training), 400 (post-Korin training)
Krillin: 100
Yamcha: 40
Colonel Silver: 40
Ninja Murasaki: 27
General White: 30
Full Metal Jacket: 100
Pirate Robot: 115
General Blue: 130
Tao Pai Pai: 350
Darcula Man: 20
Mummy-kun: 180
Akkuman: 225
Gohan: 380


22nd Tenkaichi Budokai
Goku:
  • Base: 1,200 (Match level), 1,600 (Battle level)
Krillin: 600
Yamcha: 590
Jackie Chun:
  • Base: 1,000 (initial), 1,200 (serious)
Tenshinhan:
  • Base: 1,000 (initial), 1,500 (serious)
Chaozu: 560
Manwolf: 30
Pamput: 50
Chapa-o: 540
Crane Hermit: 900


Piccolo Daimao
Goku:
  • Base: 1,420 (Match level), 1,900 (pre-Sacred Water), 16,000 (post-Sacred Water)
Yajirobe: 1,000
Muten Roshi:
  • Base: 1,200 (old) 1,700 (young)
Crane Hermit (young): 1,500
Mutaito: 1,800
Piano: 5
Cymbal: 500
Tambourine: 1,200
Drum: 2,200
Piccolo Daimao:
  • Base: 3,800 (<50% power; old), 8,000 (100% power; old), 12,000 (initial; young), 15,000 (100% power; young)
Mr. Popo: 50,000
Kami: 100,000


23rd Tenkaichi Budokai
Goku:
  • Base: 12,000 (weighted; initial), 20,000 (weighted; serious), 50,000 (weights removed; initial), 154,000 (weights removed; serious)
Krillin: 13,000
Yamcha: 12,500

Tenshinhan:
  • Base: 20,000 (initial), 25,000 (full speed)
Chi-Chi: 8,000
Chaozu: 5,000
Yajirobe: 6,000
Cyborg Tao: 10,000
Kami:
  • Base: 100,000
  • Shen: 25,000 (initial), 50,000 (serious)
Piccolo:
  • Base: 20,000 (initial), 60, 000 (vs. Kami), 152,000 (serious)
Chapa-o: 1,300
Preliminary fighters: 50-100
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Sat Jun 18, 2022 4:24 pm

I felt that could be posted on the Super strenght thread, but I'll stick with this one:

You guys feel that Super Saiyan 1, 2 and 3 had surpassed their "tiers" on Super? Something like:

SSJ Goku (post BoG/RoF/FT or ToP) > Super Perfect Cell
SSJ2 Goku (post BoG/RoF/FT or ToP) > Pure Boo
SSJ3 Goku (post BoG/RoF/FT or ToP) > Boohan
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