Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[DanielSSJ]

How strong do y'all think SS Gohan was during the Cell Games? I'm liking the idea that he wasn't too far behind Perfect Cell's full strength, and that if he wasn't such a bitch so hesitant, he would've put up an excellent fight. Heck, if Goku didn't grab the idiot ball and give Cell a Senzu, Gohan might've won without another character dying to serve as the emotional trigger for one of his temper tantrums.

[apex_pretador]

How strong do y'all think SS Gohan was during the Cell Games? I'm liking the idea that he wasn't too far behind Perfect Cell's full strength, and that if he wasn't such a bitch so hesitant, he would've put up an excellent fight. Heck, if Goku didn't grab the idiot ball and give Cell a Senzu, Gohan might've won without another character dying to serve as the emotional trigger for one of his temper tantrums.

i think he wasn't too far from goku at cell games.

He was nearly killed by cell's bearhug when he was at the same strength he was against goku.

[Analytic]

How strong do y'all think SS Gohan was during the Cell Games?

A good deal stronger than Goku, but considerably weaker than Full-Power Perfect Cell.

Cell and Gohan seemed slightly even after Cell upped his speed, but after Gohan went SS2, Cell did a huge power-up that shocked everyone. Not only that, but it actually took Gohan a few blows to put Cell down. I think SS2 Gohan would be able to kill SS Gohan in a single hit.

[Khin]

How strong do you guys think Piccolo was before he merged with Kami ? Here's a line a caught my attention.

Chapter:347 (DBZ 153), P3.2-3
Piccolo: “It seems that in the original history, we were supposed to be wiped out by you two androids…But it looks like the future has changed somehow…Was it that you weren’t as strong as we thought?...Or have we grown too strong?...

Piccolo knew that SS Trunks in his first appearance was no match for the Androids. When he defeated #20, instead of just saying that they're weaker than they though, he still thinks he became too strong for them.

[Hugo Boss]

I think Piccolo should be at least stronger than his future self, because he was quite motivated in the past. Couple that with No. 19 and No. 20 not being as strong as the androids Future Trunks fought and you could say Piccolo's performance is a combination of these two factors. He isn't necessarily stronger than the future androids No. 17 and No. 18 or Future Trunks himself. I think he could probably contend with Freeza.

[DanielSSJ]

How strong do you guys think Piccolo was before he merged with Kami ? Here's a line a caught my attention.

Chapter:347 (DBZ 153), P3.2-3
Piccolo: “It seems that in the original history, we were supposed to be wiped out by you two androids…But it looks like the future has changed somehow…Was it that you weren’t as strong as we thought?...Or have we grown too strong?...

Piccolo knew that SS Trunks in his first appearance was no match for the Androids. When he defeated #20, instead of just saying that they're weaker than they though, he still thinks he became too strong for them.

I place Piccolo as being roughly as strong as SS Goku and SS Trunks before the three-year time-skip, but weaker than any of the Super Saiyans after the time skip.

In numbers:
SS Trunks (Trunks arc) - 170
SS Goku (Trunks arc) - 180
Piccolo (Androids arc) - 180
SS Trunks (Android arc) - 220
SS Goku (Androids arc) - 250
SS Vegeta - 260

[Kaboom]

How strong do y'all think SS Gohan was during the Cell Games?

I'm thinking a good chunk stronger than Goku, obviously, and also a little stronger than the power Cell used to fight both of them. [Goku: 8.5, Cell: 10, Gohan: 11) But Cell can presumably still increase his power pretty easily like he did his speed, so Gohan wouldn't have won a prolonged fight if Cell got more serious.

How strong do you guys think Piccolo was before he merged with Kami ? Here's a line a caught my attention.

Honestly there's a very wide range you could put him in. He was "confident in his strength," but that's not nearly as concrete power a comparison statement as many assume it is. I'm sure he expects to be helpful in a fight against the Androids, but it's the greatly improved Super Saiyans themselves who were expected to do the bulk of the fighting. Plus later on it was Trunks and Freeza being used as the measuring sticks, not Piccolo.

So he can really be wherever you want as long as he's behind Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta (and probably also Trunks), but based on how easily he cleaned house and was kind of compared to a Super Saiyan, I think he should be at least be pushing 100 million in power level. I have him about as strong as Goku and Trunks were, like DanielSSJ does, so that his power doubling from the re-merger shoots him ahead of the Super Saiyans and put him on even footing with the Androids.

[RandomGuy96]

If you want to nitpick implications there's also this:

Chapter: 356 (DBZ 162), P3.1
God: “Things turned out this way against the androids…Even for that ‘Trunks’ boy who came from the future and instantly obliterated Freeza and his father…and even for Vegeta, whose abilities are even greater than Trunks…”

Basically, "no shit you lost, even the guy who obliterated Freeza and his dad in seconds couldn't do anything". The line doesn't really make any sense if he's stronger than SS Trunks from back then. Or strong enough to easily defeat Freeza and Cold, for that matter.

[Desassina]

So, I was wondering if we could finally lay off the Super Buu theory that he's the strongest, to embrace the current direction of DB Super. In other words: we were wrong, but it has been fun discussing it. Call it a retcon or a convenience set up by DB Kai and the Daizenshuu, but we need to soak in the new material, and correct things in hindsight. The manga is not the only thing being followed, after all.

Let's say that Pure Boo started with 4, and that SSJ3 Goku was a match with 100 times less than his multiplier. Both Kais would suppress him according to their own power relative to a scale, the same 100 from before, which means that they are below it.

Pure Boo (4) * South Kai (0.8) = South Kaioshin Boo (3.2)
South Kaioshin Boo (3.2) * Dai Kai (0.5) = Majin Boo (1.6)

Upon being released in front of Gohan and Kaioshin, his power was not outside of Gohan's reach, if he could tap into his own. However, Majin Boo put up a good fight against SSJ3 Goku as well, so he could probably double it to a point that is below Pure Boo (3.2 for example). A split occurred though, and the majority of Majin Boo's power went to Pure Evil Boo, with the leftovers in Good/Innocent Boo.

Majin Boo (1.6) / 0.8 = Pure Evil Boo (2)
Majin Boo (1.6) * 0.8 = Good Boo (1.28)

What I multiplied Majin Boo's power with was used to divide it into Evil Boo's, as if suppression was being added or released. The next thing is easy to figure out, which is Good Boo's absorption into Evil Boo (Super).

Pure Evil Boo (2) * Good Boo (1.28) = Evil Boo (2.56)

And when Majin Boo, the original fat one is pulled from Evil Boo, he loses two times the same amount of suppression from before (0.8), which add up to Majin Boo's power once he's released from Pure Boo.

Evil Boo (2.56) / 0.8 = South Kaioshin Boo (3.2)
South Kaioshin Boo (3.2) / 0.8 = Pure Boo (4)

Now, remember when I said that Majin Boo could double his power by getting angry? Why not Evil Boo as well? That way we can make one instance of Evil Boo stronger than SSJ3 Goku and Pure Boo, and the other weaker than South Kaioshin Boo upon reverting into Pure Boo:

Pure Boo - 4
Majin Boo - from 1.6 to 3.2
Evil Boo - from 2.56 to 5.12

Ultimately, Pure Boo is the strongest, but not during his fight against SSJ3 and SSJ2 Goku. That way, we won't have to ignore the evidence from the inside of Evil Boo's stomach as well. With ranging power, SSJ3 Goku can still be the strongest, while Gohan and Gotenks were stronger than the last reference of power that they had against Majin Boo. Thanks for your time.

[Kaboom]

So, I was wondering if we could finally lay off the Super Buu theory that he's the strongest, to embrace the current direction of DB Super. In other words: we were wrong, but it has been fun discussing it. Call it a retcon or a convenience set up by DB Kai and the Daizenshuu, but we need to soak in the new material, and correct things in hindsight.

Not a chance as far as I'm concerned. The original manga is the one solid, always-present, and relatively consistent original work that everything else draws from, and I'm not going to just say "oh well" and let something as sloppy, self-contradictory, and all-around crappy as Super take precedence over it. Super isn't going to magically rewrite or negate half of the Majin Boo arc any more than GT, the prior movies, or anything else from Toei that glorifies Goku at the expense of other characters.

So until direct, unmistakable and irrefutable word of god from Toriyama says, "I changed my mind while writing the final story and wanted Goku and the small Boo to be the strongest in the end," then... no, Evil Boo remains the strongest form just as the original manga clearly portrays, and Super can go jump off a cliff.

[ekrolo2]

The fact Goku's scared to fight regular Super Boo and urges Vegeta to fuse, however way they can, is proof enough that he can't beat Super Boo on his own. The fact that he's fine with taking on Kid Boo by himself should be evidence enough to tell people Super Boo > Kid Boo. And no, Goku didn't get some "post fusion boost" as some fan theories like to make up, if he did, why would he be scared to fight Super Boo if he had such a boost?

Goku is NOT the strongest at the end of the Boo-Saga, hell, not counting the new material, I'd say everyone but Goten, Trunks and Pan is tapped out by EoZ. Goku and Vegeta barely got stronger than Gohan was at the Cell Games, Piccolo hit his ceiling before even that, same with the humans and Gohan got all his power unlocked.

[Desassina]

... I'll never post long theories again. Or maybe I should have started without the disclaimer. It brings about the worst in us. Anyway, there's a chance that the one line that people cling to inside of Evil Boo's stomach was referring to their unfused state, which includes not being transformed or with their highest form. It's what we're shown, after all, when Goku says "... go outside like this". But that's another story... You'll have the last word.

[DanielSSJ]

... I'll never post long theories again. Or maybe I should have started without the disclaimer. It brings about the worst in us. Anyway, there's a chance that the one line that people cling to inside of Evil Boo's stomach was referring to their unfused state, which includes not being transformed or with their highest form. It's what we're shown, after all, when Goku says "... go outside like this". But that's another story... You'll have the last word.

Why would Goku be talking about their untransformed states when they A) never fight in their base forms anymore? B) It takes them like a second to jump up to Super Saiyan 2? C) And that Goku has shown that, in the manga, he can also jump up to Super Saiyan 3 almost instantly? That would be like someone sitting in a chair saying "Oh I can't fight that guy! He'd destroy me!" then standing up and getting into a boxing pose and saying "Okay, now I can!"

Don't be afraid to post theories here, just be prepared to be met with criticism. I'm personally with Kaboom here. The manga is the primary source here and it, at least, is fairly consistent with it's power relationships between the characters. It's only the material produced by Toei that puts Goku and Pure Boo on a pedestal in that arc, and neither GT nor Super are written well enough to take precedence over the source material. Both are sloppily written side stories of what happened after the series ended. Heck, Super can barely give us a proper explanation of the power relationships between it's own characters and you want me to take it's word over the manga's about stuff that happened 20 years ago?

Now If Toriyama comes out and says Goku and Pure Boo were the strongest after all, that'd be a different story. But until that happens,I'm gonna ignore whatever garbage the anime, GT, the movies, and Super try to pull.

[Blackstripe]

What are you guys talking about? What did Super ever say about Pure Buu? I've watched every episode and haven't really even seen him mentioned beyond them speaking of the defeat of Majin Buu at the very start.

[Desassina]

So we treat Majin Boo as a threat in general and not as Pure Boo upon defeat? Because Super has addressed that, and it comes from Akira Toriyama. Not that I care too much, because the manga is only being continued with many layers of adaptation in between. Those layers would include DB Kai, which is the new reference of quality, in my opinion. Also, the way I have for Evil Boo to be the strongest is by far the most assuming and daring, but it doesn't matter.

[DanielSSJ]

So we treat Majin Boo as a threat in general and not as Pure Boo upon defeat? Because Super has addressed that, and it comes from Akira Toriyama. Not that I care too much, because the manga is only being continued with many layers of adaptation in between. Those layers would include DB Kai, which is the new reference of quality, in my opinion. Also, the way I have for Evil Boo to be the strongest is by far the most assuming and daring, but it doesn't matter.

Toriyama did the movie versions of Battle of Gods and Resurrection F, but his involvement in the Super anime is apparently rather small. He does character designs and provides basic plot concepts, like he did in GT. He's apparently even expressed displeasure with Super's quality at one point, though I think that might've been due to the animation.

[Desassina]

I hate treating things like a conspiracy theory. If Akira Toriyama is credited in DB Super, then it's the only fact that matters. I'm not going to guess his intentions or aspirations through the hints left behind. I would laugh if his Tweet to the DB Super manga artist was only a publicity stunt, because it's quite unprofessional to question an on going project in public. The only truth goes behind the scenes, between him, Toei and/or his editors, so we can only admit to being piecing things our way. And we should do it for fun, but make them believable for the "innocent". As for the rest, we can piece the final product events and correct them upon new reveals, because they were only interpretations to begin with.

[Kamiccolo9]

I hate treating things like a conspiracy theory. If Akira Toriyama is credited in DB Super, then it's the only fact that matters. I'm not going to guess his intentions or aspirations through the hints left behind. I would laugh if his Tweet to the DB Super manga artist was only a publicity stunt, because it's quite unprofessional to question an on going project in public. The only truth goes behind the scenes, between him, Toei and/or his editors, so we can only admit to being piecing things our way. And we should do it for fun, but make them believable for the "innocent". As for the rest, we can piece the final product events and correct them upon new reveals, because they were only interpretations to begin with.

Akira Toriyama is credited on gum wrappers that have Dragon Ball characters on them. Are we to assume that Toriyama jogs down to the gum factory to make the stuff?

[Kaboom]

It's not so much a "conspiracy theory" as it is just a very obvious agenda or at least trend for Toei to treat Goku as the strongest no matter what else happens or how little sense it makes.

They wasted no time doing so even as early as the animated Fusion arc — during the extended filler-stuffed sequence inside Boo's body, where Goku and Vegeta meet the weird replicas of Gohan, Piccolo, and the runts, they have Goku fight the copy-Gohan and claim he's every bit as strong as the original. But then in the very next episode, they keep the part of the original story where Goku clearly says that Evil Boo is too strong for himself or Vegeta to fight. You know, the very same Evil Boo who was utterly stomped by Ultimate Gohan, whom Goku just fought evenly with. Does not compute. That same trend continues into works that happened alongside the anime Boo arc (like Movie 13) and most other new Toei productions since then.

So it's not a retcon, it's just Toei pretending certain parts of the Majin Boo arc never happened so that they can glorify their poster-boy hero Goku. As far as I'm aware, Toriyama tends to be vague, non-committal, or just indifferent about that sort of thing. He's never directly stated or written something that explicitly agrees with Toei's revisionism, and it won't actually become a retcon until he does. If or when that happens, then it'll be time to start cranking out fan-theories and forcing square pegs into round holes.

But in the meantime, which am I going to go with? The surprisingly consistent and clear-cut power hierarchy of original work, or the flip-floppy and contradictory scale of Toei's imagination where where Goku's simultaneously stronger and weaker than certain people? It's a pretty easy choice if you ask me.

[ekrolo2]

I saw a theory about Goku's GT power level rising so much in his base form. Basically it said that the reason he's gotten so ridiculously strong in-spite of the Boo Saga heavily implying he's practically tapped out is he learned how to access his various Super Saiyan forms power in his base state. Giving him a monstrously strong base state at the cost of his SSJ forms (minus 4) getting a massively lowered multipliers.

Is there any merit to this theory or is it just trying to make up an explanation where there really isn't one?