Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

thefalseprophecy · Post by **thefalseprophecy** » Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:16 pm

Herms wrote:The site's creator(s) are really big on inflation. They've even got a whole page explaining how big numbers are "necessary" for a "correct" understanding of the series. More than any particular number, it's the site's attitude that I find most off-putting.

I happen to dispute their idea that big numbers are "necessary" after the hyperinflation of the Freeza era because characters aren't getting near-death powerups left and right. That sort of hubris is partly why these discussions are so poorly regarded by some of the fanbase.

SSJ2FutureGohan · Post by **SSJ2FutureGohan** » Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:17 pm

Herms wrote:It's supposed to be Rild's base form, where he fights evenly with base Goku, whereas Goku needed to become Super Saiyan to beat Redict. I haven't seen GT in ages so I don't know how accurate that is, but that's the site's view on things anyway.

Yeah, but Goku was far more powerful on M2.

-------

Speaking of GT, here's my updated list, but scaled down for the sake of comprehension:

Super Buu (ref.): 4,000
Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks (ref.): 4,800
Fantastic Gohan (ref.): 6,000
Gotenks-Buu (ref.): 8,800
Gohan-Buu (ref.): 10,000
Super Vegetto (ref.): 288,000

Spoiler:

Post by **Herms** » Fri Apr 17, 2015 11:21 pm

thefalseprophecy wrote:I happen to dispute their idea that big numbers are "necessary" after the hyperinflation of the Freeza era because characters aren't getting near-death powerups left and right. That sort of hubris is partly why these discussions are so poorly regarded by some of the fanbase.

Yeah, personally I feel like the only reason to assign specific numbers to characters is if you're trying to be precise. Of course, I also tend to think DB isn't written with that level of precision, so I think numbers are generally not that useful, but if you're going to use them it seems to me that you'd want to use them for situations like "Character A is way stronger than Character B, but not quite as strong as Character C, who's inferior to Character D, while Character E is about halfway between Characters C and D, etc". That's why I think keeping a timeline assigning specific years and sometimes even specific days of the month for the events throughout the series is worthwhile, since when you've got stuff like "A is 5 years after B, and C is 1 year later, and D is about 2 years later, and then E is another 3 years etc", it's useful to try and keep track of that all rather than just go "E is a long time after A". But with that site's BP numbers, particularly with GT, you've got lots of times where Character A is 10 or 100 times stronger than Character B, and there aren't any characters midway between them, so it's really no different than just saying "Character A is way, way stronger than Character B". The numbers don't really add anything, I feel. Of course, I'm currently trying to analysis the series in this sort of purposefully imprecise way, so I may be biased.

(To keep the timeline analogy going, while I'm a big fan of the Daizenshuu 7/Chouzenshuu 4 timeline, you could still remove all the exact dates from the first two pages and just say "all these events happened way, way before the start of the series" without losing much. While all that stuff about "100 million years ago, 75 million years ago, 5 million, 10,000, etc" is generally taken straight from the dates said in the series, they're still just a bunch of big numbers that are merely meant to sound impressive. It's not until you get to the more immediate back story and the actual events of the series that precision becomes worthwhile.)

DragonHermit · Post by **DragonHermit** » Mon Apr 20, 2015 5:07 pm

I grew up with the Frieza 12 million and Goku 14 million numbers. But looking back on it, I have to frustratingly agree that the overinflated 120 million and 140 million make much more sense.

1) Frieza said he was using 1% of his power when he just transformed into the last form

2) At 50% or around 60 million, Goku had to use Kaioken x20 just to keep up. Kaioken is pretty much just a basic multiplier.

3) Toriyama said Super Saiyan is a x50 multiplier. This was his intent and we can't argue much with it.

The SSJ2 multipliers are wrong imo. SSJ2 is NOT just SSJ1 x 2. Ascended Saiyan is at least 3 times stronger than SSJ, and SSJ2 > Ascended Saiyan.

I think SSJ2 = Grade 3 Super Saiyan in strength. Cell admitted that Grade 3 was stronger than him, but he was too slow.

When Gohan transformed, Trunks said he gained strength without losing speed. So Grade 3 had enough strength to beat Cell just not enough speed.

miguelnuva1 · Post by **miguelnuva1** » Mon Apr 20, 2015 5:18 pm

DragonHermit wrote:I grew up with the Freeza 12 million and Goku 14 million numbers. But looking back on it, I have to frustratingly agree that the overinflated 120 million and 140 million make much more sense.

1) Freeza said he was using 1% of his power when he just transformed into the last form

2) At 50% or around 60 million, Goku had to use Kaioken x20 just to keep up. Kaioken is pretty much just a basic multiplier.

3) Toriyama said Super Saiyan is a x50 multiplier. This was his intent and we can't argue much with it.

The SSJ2 multipliers are wrong imo. SSJ2 is NOT just SSJ1 x 2. Ascended Saiyan is at least 3 times stronger than SSJ, and SSJ2 > Ascended Saiyan.

I think SSJ2 = Grade 3 Super Saiyan in strength. Cell admitted that Grade 3 was stronger than him, but he was too slow.

When Gohan transformed, Trunks said he gained strength without losing speed. So Grade 3 had enough strength to beat Cell just not enough speed.

Goku is 150,000,000 not 140,000,000.

Also Ascended Super Saiyan is not 3x stronger Vegeta was 3x stronger then he was against 18 at least.

Post by **Kaboom** » Mon Apr 20, 2015 6:45 pm

DragonHermit wrote:I grew up with the Freeza 12 million and Goku 14 million numbers. But looking back on it, I have to frustratingly agree that the overinflated 120 million and 140 million make much more sense.
1) Freeza said he was using 1% of his power when he just transformed into the last form
2) At 50% or around 60 million, Goku had to use Kaioken x20 just to keep up. Kaioken is pretty much just a basic multiplier.
3) Toriyama said Super Saiyan is a x50 multiplier. This was his intent and we can't argue much with it.

The SSJ2 multipliers are wrong imo. SSJ2 is NOT just SSJ1 x 2. Ascended Saiyan is at least 3 times stronger than SSJ, and SSJ2 > Ascended Saiyan. I think SSJ2 = Grade 3 Super Saiyan in strength. Cell admitted that Grade 3 was stronger than him, but he was too slow.
When Gohan transformed, Trunks said he gained strength without losing speed. So Grade 3 had enough strength to beat Cell just not enough speed.

miguelnuva1 already pointed out how Goku was 150 million, not 140, as well as the "3x" thing. That's a misconception caused by some dub line, I believe (as is Freeza's 1% line.. 1% of his full power would be the "over one million" power he had in his 2nd form, not his initial power in his 4th/final form).

Grade 2 and Grade 3 have never been given official "multipliers" like the 3 main Super Saiyan forms have been. I agree with you about Super Saiyan 2 being as strong as Grade 3 though, both at around 2x Super Saiyan, while Grade 2's power would fall somewhere between that and Super Saiyan 1.

Also, keep in mind that Trunks' Grade 3 power only surpassed a suppressed version of Cell. It wasn't until the Cell Games that Cell revealed his full power, and Gohan surpassed THAT. So that'd just mean that Gohan was a lot stronger than Trunks overall.

Toriyama hasn't really expressed an "intent" when it comes to Super Saiyan's strength. He's just noted that it more or less ended up being established as 50x, even though it didn't feel that big to him while drawing.

Noah · Post by **Noah** » Mon Apr 20, 2015 7:48 pm

What are the powers levels (numbers) in 2008 Jump Special?

Abo, Cado > Freeza > Tarble

Goten, Trunks > Abo, Cado

Aka > Goten, Trunks

Gotenks > Aka

SSJ Goku > Gotenks > Aka (?)

SSJ2FutureGohan · Post by **SSJ2FutureGohan** » Sun Apr 26, 2015 9:03 pm

Fun idea I wanted to try: make a BP list that follows every single Daizenshuu / guidebook statement.

Here's what I have so far:

-CG Gohan = Buu saga Gohan = post-RoSaT Goten

-Kaioshin >>>>>> Piccolo

-I realize the Cell Jrs' entries are conflicting, with one saying they are equals and one saying they surpass Vegeta and Trunks, so for simplicity's sake, I'll go with Cell Jr. >= Vegeta >= Trunks

-base kids ~= #18

-Dabra being SPC tier

-if I include GT: SS3 Vegetto >= SS4 Goku

-Kibito =< Base Gohan

-post-RoSaT Gotenks > Vegeta > pre-RoSaT Gotenks (the guide doesn't give specific forms, so I'll go with Base Gotenks post > SS/2 Vegeta and have SS Gotenks above Fat Buu to fit the narrative.)

anything else I'm missing? @Kaboom, @RandomGuy, @anyone else who sees something I'm missing

miguelnuva1 · Post by **miguelnuva1** » Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:04 am

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Fun idea I wanted to try: make a BP list that follows every single Daizenshuu / guidebook statement.

Here's what I have so far:

-CG Gohan = Buu saga Gohan = post-RoSaT Goten

-Kaioshin >>>>>> Piccolo

-I realize the Cell Jrs' entries are conflicting, with one saying they are equals and one saying they surpass Vegeta and Trunks, so for simplicity's sake, I'll go with Cell Jr. >= Vegeta >= Trunks

-base kids ~= #18

-Dabra being SPC tier

-if I include GT: SS3 Vegetto >= SS4 Goku

-Kibito =< Base Gohan

-post-RoSaT Gotenks > Vegeta > pre-RoSaT Gotenks (the guide doesn't give specific forms, so I'll go with Base Gotenks post > SS/2 Vegeta and have SS Gotenks above Fat Buu to fit the narrative.)

anything else I'm missing? @Kaboom, @RandomGuy, @anyone else who sees something I'm missing

If you're going with guide book and narrative then Dabura is tougher then Goku thought and Goku never sensed Super perfect cell. Also one guide book says Gohan was a ssj.

Finally I would have

Ssj2 kid gohan rage>ssj2 kid gohan=ssj2 teen gohan.

As for Gotenks go

Ssj3 Goku>base gotenks post rosat> majin vegeta/ssj2 goku>base gotenks pre.

SSJ2FutureGohan · Post by **SSJ2FutureGohan** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:02 am

Putting off that list for another GT list, scaled down more, and changed around a bit. I actually really like this one. Let me know what you think.

Spoiler:

DanielSSJ · Post by **DanielSSJ** » Wed Apr 29, 2015 2:31 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't stamina and ki essentially the same?

In some ways, yes, in others, no. For example, when Goku used the Kamehameha way back in the original series, he would get tired and hungry. On the other hand, you could say that SSJ3 Goku has more Ki than SSJ2 Vegeta, but Goku tires out a lot faster in than form, so SSJ3 Goku has less stamina than SSJ2 Vegeta.

ZombieVito · Post by **ZombieVito** » Sat May 02, 2015 11:21 pm

Preliminary RoF BP's:

Spoiler:

Thoughts? The script says Freeza's army has a few mercenaries that are stronger than the regular soldiers but I just don't know where to put them.

Saiga · Post by **Saiga** » Sun May 03, 2015 3:47 am

Roshi is stronger than he was in the manga, this is made clear by many comments in the script-book-thingy and Toriyama's note that he perhaps could have always been this strong if he put his mind to it: meaning that he wasn't at such a level before now, and it's an impressive difference.

I don't know how the fight goes in the movie but in the manga Freeza seems to be much closer to Goku than your numbers suggest, while still being outclassed. I also think base Goku/Vegeta are too close to SSGSS and Beerus, because it was implied that they're much weaker than while in base. People seem to be comparing them to Beerus' full power for that scene, but I feel Beerus' 100% is something we've never seen before and likely to be a big deal when it appears (even if we already know how it compares). I think that, while base Goku in Battle of Gods could last a while against Beerus, that was temporary and his Revival of F base isn't as strong, leaving more of a difference in his base and Super Saiyan forms.

This was a list I did for BoG / Revival of F to try and make EoZ make some sense without God powers:

Spoiler:

RandomGuy96 · Post by **RandomGuy96** » Mon May 04, 2015 5:13 am

One, shouldn't Freeza's Golden form be x50 off his "70%?" I may be wrong, but it looks like the intent there was to make it like SS... and his base form is technically his "70% form".

Shouldn't Vegeta be weaker than Goku? He nervously declined fighting Freeza before Goku beat him. I think that would mark Goku as marginally superior, at least. Oh, and apparently Goku + Vegeta together can fight evenly with Beerus, so they should both be stronger. Though, Beerus can still easily defeat them individually, since a team-up of Goku and Vegeta was said to be enough to draw with Beerus and easily defeat Golden Freeza (who's on par with them individually; slightly stronger, but lacking in stamina).

Do you have a link to that note you're talking about?

Kid Buu · Post by **Kid Buu** » Mon May 04, 2015 5:23 am

Whis makes a comment Vegeta is one step behind Goku in the new film, so I imagine Goku is stronger.

DBZGTKOSDH · Post by **DBZGTKOSDH** » Mon May 04, 2015 5:07 pm

Saiga wrote:I think that, while base Goku in Battle of Gods could last a while against Beerus, that was temporary and his Revival of F base isn't as strong, leaving more of a difference in his base and Super Saiyan forms.

Τhe manga adaptation shows that SbG Goku is around the same level as SSG Goku, like we are told/shown in BoG.

RandomGuy96 wrote:One, shouldn't Freeza's Golden form be x50 off his "70%?" I may be wrong, but it looks like the intent there was to make it like SS... and his base form is technically his "70% form".

It's impossible. Final Form Freeza is weaker than SbG Goku, but not many times weaker, since even though Freeza couldn't land a hit on Goku, they had an actual fight. After they both transform, SSGSS Goku is weaker than Golden Freeza, but they also have an actual fight, and Golden Freeza gets weaker than SSGSS Goku after his stamina begun to drop.

And since SbG Goku is slightly weaker than SSG Goku, and SSGSS Goku is stronger than SbG Goku, but he is still weaker than Beerus and would need SSGSS Vegeta's help to rival him, and we know that SSG Goku was a 6 while Beerus was a 10... well, do the math.

ZombieVito · Post by **ZombieVito** » Mon May 04, 2015 5:43 pm

About Vegeta and Goku:

Having composed himself again, Whis carries on, telling Vegeta he is always tense and is thus slow to react, which is why Goku is always one step ahead of him.

I don't see anything here saying that Vegeta is weaker. Goku just fights better than him.

Granted Goku can be stronger because Vegeta backed out of fighting Freeza but he was already stronger than Goku thus stronger than Vegeta.

I don't see how that is definitive proof that Goku > Vegeta. That scene still works with them being equal.

AT note:

An astounding battle begins! (This scene is a major set piece. Of course, I just have to write out the words, so it’s pretty easy on my end. Sorry (^^). It’ll probably be rough on all you animators, but please do your best.)

Despite being called “Freeza Army”, by now it’s been reduced to merely a hodge-podge of second-rate warriors. Strength-wise Earth’s army overwhelmingly has the upper hand, and the enemy force’s numbers steadily drop. However, there are still some strong enemies. The mercenaries are particularly troublesome. Gohan is strongest. And Piccolo’s strong too. Kuririn, Tenshinhan, Kame-sennin, and even Jaco all play a big role.

emperior · Post by **emperior** » Thu May 07, 2015 12:01 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Putting off that list for another GT list, scaled down more, and changed around a bit. I actually really like this one. Let me know what you think.
Spoiler:
Multipliers
~ Super Saiyan - 2.5x base
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 3.75x base
~ Super Saiyan 3 - 11.25x base
~ Ōzaru - 10x base
~ Golden Ōzaru - 10x strongest SS form
~ Super Saiyan 4 - potential unlock

Buu arc

Fusion saga

Son Goku
~ Super Saiyan 3 - 12
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 2.4
~ Super Saiyan - 0.6
~ base - 0.012

Son Gohan
~ Ultimate - 60,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 9
~ Super Saiyan - 6
~ base - 2.4

Gotenks
~ Super Saiyan 3 - 48,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 9,600
~ Super Saiyan - 2,400
~ base - 48

Super Buu
~ full power - 40,000
~ Gotenks absorbed - 88,000
~ Gohan absorbed - 100,000

Pure Buu
~ full power: 11

Vegetto
~ Super Saiyan 3 - 64,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 12,800,000
~ Super Saiyan - 3,200,000
~ base - 64,000

End of Z

Son Goku
~ Super Saiyan 3 - 112.5
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 37.5
~ Super Saiyan - 25
~ base: 10

Uub
~ enraged - 11

Vegeta
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 35.25
~ Super Saiyan - 23.5
~ base - 9.4

Son Gohan
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 270,000
~ Super Saiyan - 180,000
~ Ultimate | base - 72,000

The Perfect Files state he didn't neglect his training, so I assume that's how he regained his Super Saiyan transformations. His base form still has his 'Ultimate' traits, so it's not like he lost his power up.

Trunks
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 5.25
~ Super Saiyan - 3.5
~ base - 1.4

Son Goten
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 4.95
~ Super Saiyan - 3.3
~ base - 1.32

Pan
~ base - 5

Ultimate Dragon Balls arc

Beginning of GT to Planet Monmath (Episodes 1-6)

Son Goku
~ Super Saiyan 3 - 40,500
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 13,500
~ Super Saiyan - 9,000
~ base - 3,600

Uub
~ full power - 3,600

Vegeta
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 12,000
~ Super Saiyan - 8,000
~ base - 3,200

Trunks
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 2,812.5
~ Super Saiyan - 1,875
~ base - 750

Son Goten
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 2,531.25
~ Super Saiyan - 1,687.5
~ base - 675

Pan
~ base - 225

GT seems to go the opposite route of EoZ and have Pan weaker than Goten and Trunks rather than stronger, so I awkwardly end up with them gaining more than Pan despite not training.

Son Gohan
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 375,000
~ Super Saiyan - 250,000
~ base - 100,000

Gohan, contradictory to Pan's statement in episode 7, is actually the strongest Zet Senshi in most of the first arc, weird.

Ledgic
~ full power - 3,800

Planet Gelbo to Planet Luud (Episodes 7-15)

Son Goku
~ Super Saiyan 3 - 54,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 18,000
~ Super Saiyan - 12,000
~ base - 4,800

Trunks
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 3,750
~ Super Saiyan - 2,500
~ base - 1,000

Pan
~ base - 300

Mutchi
~ full power - 5,000

Luud
~ Level 3 - 46,250
~ Level 2 - 9,250

Planet M2 (Episodes 16-21)

Son Goku
~ Super Saiyan 3 - 1,507,500
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 502,500
~ Super Saiyan - 335,000
~ base - 134,000

Trunks
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 112,500
~ Super Saiyan - 75,000
~ base - 30,000

Pan
~ enraged - 120,000
~ base - 10,000

Rild
~ base - 120,000
~ Hyper Mode - 200,000
~ Metal Rild - 320,000

Baby arc

Baby assimilates the Zet Senshi (Episodes 22-41)

Son Goku
~ Super Saiyan 4 - 60,000,000
~ Golden Ōzaru - 18,900,000
~ Super Saiyan 3 - 1,890,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 630,000
~ Super Saiyan - 420,000
~ base - 168,000

The GT Side-Story promotional states Vegetto is "perhaps even greater than Super Saiyan 4!" So I take that to mean SS3 Vegetto >= SS4 Goku.

Uub
~ full power - 150,000
~ post fusion - 8,000,000

Vegeta
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 502,500
~ Super Saiyan - 335,000
~ base - 134,000

Vegeta-Baby
~ 1st form - 2,200,000
~ Strongest Form 1 - 3,300,000
~ Strongest Form 2 - 9,900,000
~ Golden Ōzaru - 62,500,000

Super 17 arc (Episodes 42-47)

Son Goku
~ Super Saiyan 4 - 60,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 3 - 37,125,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 12,375,000
~ Super Saiyan - 8,250,000
~ base - 3,300,000

Super #17 confirming he was toying with Goku would ruin any argument for SS Goku > SS2 Vegeta, but since it's still Toei, Goku is still most likely stronger than Vegeta in equal forms.

Vegeta
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 9,900,000
~ Super Saiyan - 6,600,000
~ base - 2,640,000

Implied to have kept his power up from Baby based on out-performing Uub.

Uub
~ full power - 8,000,000

Hell Fighter #17
~ max power - 2,750,000

Super #17
~ post absorbtions - 150,000,000
~ initial - 18,000,000

Rild
~ full power - 200,000

Cell
~ full power - 700,000

Freeza
~ full power - 400,000

Freeza and Cell staying behind to fight Goku while Rild goes to Earth would imply that they're stronger than Rild.

Evil Dragons arc (Episodes 48-64)

Son Goku
~ Super Saiyan 4 (Beyond Limits) - 360,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 4 - 60,000,000
~ base - 3,300,000

Pan
~ post Wu Xing Long zenkai - 3,000,000
~ base - 80,000

Became comparable to Base Goku sometime early in the arc, whether it's from some zenkai from Wu Xing Long, or just Toei being Toei, I don't know, but I personally choose the former.

Vegeta
~ Super Saiyan 4 - 320,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 12,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 8,000,000
~ base - 3,200,000

Gogeta
~ Super Saiyan 4 - 48,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 3 - 2,070,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 690,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 460,000,000
~ base - 184,000,000

Vegeta wanted to fuse with Son and go straight to SS4, implying any form lower than that would be not enough to beat Super Yi Xing Long.

Yi Xing Long
~ base - 240,000,000
~ Six DBs Absorbed - 1,350,000,000
~ Super Yi Xing Long - 2,400,000,000

For me this can be legit except for the fact you give Gohan too much power. I find it stupid at beginning of GT he could take out Vegeta and Goku at their strongest without even trying. Also looks like Gohan has lost his Mystic powers.
Also Boo arc is all over the place, I find it stupid Pure Buu is a mere 11. Also if Gohan is 9 at SS2, explain me why he couldn't win against Dabura while Vegeta and Goku could have destroyed him.

First page has good power levels for Boo arc, even if numbers are crazy they give you the idea.

SSJ2FutureGohan · Post by **SSJ2FutureGohan** » Thu May 07, 2015 6:12 pm

emperior wrote:For me this can be legit except for the fact you give Gohan too much power. I find it stupid at beginning of GT he could take out Vegeta and Goku at their strongest without even trying. Also looks like Gohan has lost his Mystic powers.

He's stated to have kept up with his training and still has his Ultimate traits.

Also Boo arc is all over the place, I find it stupid Pure Buu is a mere 11.

Why

Also if Gohan is 9 at SS2, explain me why he couldn't win against Dabura while Vegeta and Goku could have destroyed him.

The Gohan I listed is after the Zeta Sword training.

SSJ2FutureGohan · Post by **SSJ2FutureGohan** » Thu May 07, 2015 7:03 pm

That list is actually old, also. Here's a more recent one with more characters added (including BoG):

Spoiler:

Kanzenshuu

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