Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Tue Nov 15, 2022 4:59 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 4:48 pm You got it backwards. Present > Future.
Oh that's a shame, guess I'm a bit rusty on DB content since the last time I watched the whole series was almost 10 years ago, but to reformulate:

But by how much do you guys have this gap between them? Also do you believe Cell would be weaker if he had the chance to absorb the future androids and could be defeated by both FP SSJ Goku and Gohan?
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Tue Nov 15, 2022 5:29 pm

Noah wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 4:59 pmOh that's a shame, guess I'm a bit rusty on DB content since the last time I watched the whole series was almost 10 years ago, but to reformulate:

But by how much do you guys have this gap between them? Also do you believe Cell would be weaker if he had the chance to absorb the future androids and could be defeated by both FP SSJ Goku and Gohan?
I tend to think the future Androids were probably about as strong as Super Saiyan Vegeta from the start of the Android/Cell arc. When Trunks says that the present Androids are stronger, he mentions being able to hold his own against his timeline's counterparts for the most part, and Vegeta's stronger than him, but not by a huge margin. I currently have Trunks and Vegeta at 285~330million and present-day No.17 and No.18 at around 460~485 million, so their future counterparts would probably be around 340~360 million.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:45 pm

So... I think DBS: Broly has sold me back on the idea of fusion having lower multipliers. Not only is Base Gogeta clearly much stronger than Ikari Broly, but LSSJ (Or SSJFP) Broly hardly seems thousands of times stronger than SSJ Gogeta: Gogeta puts up some defense, despite Broly being at least SSJG Gogeta level by this point and we know SSJG can easily tap even a SSJ3 into sleep.

The overall impression I get on Super is that AT's scaling is very simplistic and conservative. There's no overlaping power up between the anime and manga to suggest he envisioned Goku and Vegeta greatly powering up throughout the series, in fact Jiren being both Hakaishin tier and not much stronger than the SSJBs sounds like Whis' saying Goku and Vegeta could give Beerus trouble some day is still valid... They're still many times weaker of course, the castle >>> trees comparison is also valid, but Beerus being a few times stronger makes more sense than a 1,000,000x difference. This is Raditz vs 100% Freeza level stuff, the Saiyans are more like Vegeta or Goku when they fought FF Freeza on Namek.

Anyway, here's how I think lower multipliers work in the Boo Saga:
Which is about as tight I've seen these levels be without outright making Goku > Super Boo, but makes it more beliveable that Goku could surpass Gohan and Gotenks without surpassing Freeza in Base. And here's Broly:
Beerus is still over 100x stronger than SSJB Goku and Vegeta currently, but it does feel much more natural than including thousand-fold jumps, specially in the ToP where Goku could hang onto Jiren for a prolongued time in both versions.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:49 pm

If anything Broly proved that the multipliers are the same. Both Ikari Broly and base Gogeta seem to be SSB level and they both are on par when they turn Super Saiyan.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:36 pm

I agree Toriyama might have a more simplistic approach to the SS forms, at least. Lately, I've been more inclined to believe Toriyama with SS1 represents the full scope of all SS forms, now. Applicable only to his own movie continuity.

-So SS Goku can trade blows or avoid death against a god level Broly, something I could only see SS3 Goku doing, if at all.
-Vegeta can use SS to fight a base Broly that keeps getting stronger and will end up being an Ozaru boost away from SSG.
-SS Gogeta has the edge the entire fight while Broly manages to keep up here and there to the point they break into another dimension, then Gogeta regains the edge and makes Broly go berserk and even then he can still hang in there for a sec. I also believe Broly got stronger while fighting SS Gogeta, forcing him into tapping into more power (SS2, SS3 maybe) only to stay ahead, until the green form made SSB be mandatory.

So, while nothing points towards this take directly, and it is "supported" only by an old interview that probably not even AT remembers giving, I'd like to think Movie SS Goku can tap into SS3's power without turning into SS3. It's not directly contradicted either(yet), so it's perfectly headcanon material for now.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:53 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:49 pm If anything Broly proved that the multipliers are the same. Both Ikari Broly and base Gogeta seem to be SSB level and they both are on par when they turn Super Saiyan.
Goku and Vegeta were running for their lives and collapsed into base just from that effort. Meanwhile Gogeta danced around Broly’s blasts as a warm up.
Koitsukai wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:36 pm I agree Toriyama might have a more simplistic approach to the SS forms, at least. Lately, I've been more inclined to believe Toriyama with SS1 represents the full scope of all SS forms, now. Applicable only to his own movie continuity.

-So SS Goku can trade blows or avoid death against a god level Broly, something I could only see SS3 Goku doing, if at all.
-Vegeta can use SS to fight a base Broly that keeps getting stronger and will end up being an Ozaru boost away from SSG.
-SS Gogeta has the edge the entire fight while Broly manages to keep up here and there to the point they break into another dimension, then Gogeta regains the edge and makes Broly go berserk and even then he can still hang in there for a sec. I also believe Broly got stronger while fighting SS Gogeta, forcing him into tapping into more power (SS2, SS3 maybe) only to stay ahead, until the green form made SSB be mandatory.

So, while nothing points towards this take directly, and it is "supported" only by an old interview that probably not even AT remembers giving, I'd like to think Movie SS Goku can tap into SS3's power without turning into SS3. It's not directly contradicted either(yet), so it's perfectly headcanon material for now.
That’s definitely something worth thinking about. I think SSJ3 was mostly just dumped for it’s stamina issues though, and SSJ2 is too small of a boost to even matter.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Dec 03, 2022 5:39 am

I like the idea that Super Saiyan forms in general provide lesser gains after Super Saiyan God was mastered and that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is a 10-fold boost over base (much like the Great Ape transformation boost from the manga), which ties nicely with how the fight against Broly progressed. If I were to put in numbers the forms in-between, it would be something like this:

Base - 10
SS - 20
SS2 - 30
SS3 - 40
SSG - 50
SSGSS - 100

Broly with the power of the Great Ape inside of him circled through these many levels until he reached his limit against Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Dec 11, 2022 3:13 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:53 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:49 pm If anything Broly proved that the multipliers are the same. Both Ikari Broly and base Gogeta seem to be SSB level and they both are on par when they turn Super Saiyan.
Goku and Vegeta were running for their lives and collapsed into base just from that effort. Meanwhile Gogeta danced around Broly’s blasts as a warm up.
Koitsukai wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:36 pm I agree Toriyama might have a more simplistic approach to the SS forms, at least. Lately, I've been more inclined to believe Toriyama with SS1 represents the full scope of all SS forms, now. Applicable only to his own movie continuity.

-So SS Goku can trade blows or avoid death against a god level Broly, something I could only see SS3 Goku doing, if at all.
-Vegeta can use SS to fight a base Broly that keeps getting stronger and will end up being an Ozaru boost away from SSG.
-SS Gogeta has the edge the entire fight while Broly manages to keep up here and there to the point they break into another dimension, then Gogeta regains the edge and makes Broly go berserk and even then he can still hang in there for a sec. I also believe Broly got stronger while fighting SS Gogeta, forcing him into tapping into more power (SS2, SS3 maybe) only to stay ahead, until the green form made SSB be mandatory.

So, while nothing points towards this take directly, and it is "supported" only by an old interview that probably not even AT remembers giving, I'd like to think Movie SS Goku can tap into SS3's power without turning into SS3. It's not directly contradicted either(yet), so it's perfectly headcanon material for now.
That’s definitely something worth thinking about. I think SSJ3 was mostly just dumped for it’s stamina issues though, and SSJ2 is too small of a boost to even matter.
Goku and Vegeta already fought Broly and weren't at 100%, especially Goku.

Gogeta was.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Wed Dec 21, 2022 11:23 pm

You guys have a multiplier for UI? If so how much would you compare to SSJB?
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Dec 22, 2022 1:33 am

Noah wrote: Wed Dec 21, 2022 11:23 pm You guys have a multiplier for UI? If so how much would you compare to SSJB?
Depends on where do you have SSB Gogeta in comparison to UI Goku.

If Gogeta is equal to UI Goku then UI has a multiplier of SSB X SSB.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by QuakingStar » Fri Dec 23, 2022 1:20 am

Nah, there's no way UI is equal to SSG Fusion or SSB Fusion. If Goku and Vegeta became SSB Gogeta in the ToP then Jiren even at his Super Full Power state would have been beaten in under a minute.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Dec 23, 2022 2:02 am

QuakingStar wrote: Fri Dec 23, 2022 1:20 am Nah, there's no way UI is equal to SSG Fusion or SSB Fusion. If Goku and Vegeta became SSB Gogeta in the ToP then Jiren even at his Super Full Power state would have been beaten in under a minute.
UI Sign (After the Kefla fight) is already stronger than SSB Vegetto from the FT arc so who fucking knows where would SSB Gogeta from the Broly movie would place.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by QuakingStar » Fri Dec 23, 2022 2:40 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Fri Dec 23, 2022 2:02 am
QuakingStar wrote: Fri Dec 23, 2022 1:20 am Nah, there's no way UI is equal to SSG Fusion or SSB Fusion. If Goku and Vegeta became SSB Gogeta in the ToP then Jiren even at his Super Full Power state would have been beaten in under a minute.
UI Sign (After the Kefla fight) is already stronger than SSB Vegetto from the FT arc so who fucking knows where would SSB Gogeta from the Broly movie would place.
Goku and Vegeta have gotten stronger from the Zamasu Arc, in fact Vegeta went into the time chamber again while Goku trained in the gravity chamber with Whis. Take the same Goku and Vegeta and copy paste. Have one set fuse into Vegito or Gogeta SSB and have one Goku go UI. That SSB Fusion is going to fold UI Goku easily. The ONLY reason he would last longer than few seconds is the auto dodge keeping him alive until the fusion realizes all the have to do is attack faster which is how Jiren got past UI's auto dodge in the ToP. I think at best UI would MAYBE be SSG Fusion level and that's being generous.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Dec 23, 2022 3:03 pm

QuakingStar wrote: Fri Dec 23, 2022 2:40 pm Goku and Vegeta have gotten stronger from the Zamasu Arc, in fact Vegeta went into the time chamber again while Goku trained in the gravity chamber with Whis. Take the same Goku and Vegeta and copy paste. Have one set fuse into Vegito or Gogeta SSB and have one Goku go UI. That SSB Fusion is going to fold UI Goku easily. The ONLY reason he would last longer than few seconds is the auto dodge keeping him alive until the fusion realizes all the have to do is attack faster which is how Jiren got past UI's auto dodge in the ToP. I think at best UI would MAYBE be SSG Fusion level and that's being generous.
Here's the thing though:

SSB Gogeta's battle power is SSB X SSB. Even low balling the SSB multiplier the gap between SSB Goku and SSB Gogeta is 2.5 Billion using 50,000 as a multiplier for SSB.

Broly has official material saying he was equal to Gogeta in power and only lost because of losing his mind + Gogeta's skill and to be honest I agree since Broly lasted a lot of time against him.

Jiren is weaker than Broly but not by much and UI Goku was not that much stronger than Jiren.

The problem here is that in Super Hero Vegeta says that Jiren wasn't that much stronger than them. Meaning that the multiplier for UI shouldn't be THAT much since SSBE [Which is 20 times SSB] isn't that much weaker than Jiren but Gogeta suggests that the gap is quite enormous so I have no idea how to explain this.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by QuakingStar » Fri Dec 23, 2022 3:33 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Fri Dec 23, 2022 3:03 pm
QuakingStar wrote: Fri Dec 23, 2022 2:40 pm Goku and Vegeta have gotten stronger from the Zamasu Arc, in fact Vegeta went into the time chamber again while Goku trained in the gravity chamber with Whis. Take the same Goku and Vegeta and copy paste. Have one set fuse into Vegito or Gogeta SSB and have one Goku go UI. That SSB Fusion is going to fold UI Goku easily. The ONLY reason he would last longer than few seconds is the auto dodge keeping him alive until the fusion realizes all the have to do is attack faster which is how Jiren got past UI's auto dodge in the ToP. I think at best UI would MAYBE be SSG Fusion level and that's being generous.
Here's the thing though:

SSB Gogeta's battle power is SSB X SSB. Even low balling the SSB multiplier the gap between SSB Goku and SSB Gogeta is 2.5 Billion using 50,000 as a multiplier for SSB.

Broly has official material saying he was equal to Gogeta in power and only lost because of losing his mind + Gogeta's skill and to be honest I agree since Broly lasted a lot of time against him.

Jiren is weaker than Broly but not by much and UI Goku was not that much stronger than Jiren.

The problem here is that in Super Hero Vegeta says that Jiren wasn't that much stronger than them. Meaning that the multiplier for UI shouldn't be THAT much since SSBE [Which is 20 times SSB] isn't that much weaker than Jiren but Gogeta suggests that the gap is quite enormous so I have no idea how to explain this.
Fusions's formula as of DBS is A + B x "Tens of times" so really it's more than just Super Saiyan Blue x Super Saiyan Blue when Gogeta is using Super Saiyan Blue. In Broly's case his base form was as strong as Vegeta's SS form before he needed Wrath State to continue fighting, whereas with Wrath State he grew again to be close to SSB Goku. His SS had him at equal to SS Gogeta with maybe Gogeta having a slight edge. His LSS form had the power to match SSB Gogeta, just not the speed. At this point Broly was the strongest opponent yet, ToP Jiren would have been squashed by him for sure.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sat Dec 24, 2022 10:57 pm

Noah wrote: Wed Dec 21, 2022 11:23 pm You guys have a multiplier for UI? If so how much would you compare to SSJB?
I like 50x Blue for Sign since Goku vs Jiren mirrors Goku vs Freeza: First Kaio-Ken, then Genki-Dama, then new form. Goku vs Kefla supports this since SSJ2 (a 2x boost) is enough for Kefla to close the gap with Goku.

UI over Sign doesn’t look like much since Sign Goku was already fighting FP or near FP Jiren, although the manga makes the difference pretty big with MUI Goku tanking 73 Moro. I think 2x or so fits the bill.
QuakingStar wrote: Fri Dec 23, 2022 1:20 am Nah, there's no way UI is equal to SSG Fusion or SSB Fusion. If Goku and Vegeta became SSB Gogeta in the ToP then Jiren even at his Super Full Power state would have been beaten in under a minute.
I think that’s severely underestimating UI. Jiren and Broly are in the same tier, the tier of the GoDs, with Blue fusion a full tier above them and UI somewhere in between.
ZombieVito wrote: Fri Dec 23, 2022 3:03 pm The problem here is that in Super Hero Vegeta says that Jiren wasn't that much stronger than them.
I’d have to see Vegeta’s quote to be sure, but that line always reminds me of Piccolo telling Gero the Z Fighters are suppressed when not fighting but can make their powers “explode” (I think Vegeta also uses this word) when fighting.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:33 am

Hi! Did anyone here do any power level list for the granola arc? I'd like to see some since I never scaled it and frankly don't want to go through a re read of that pain in the ass of an arc to scale it.

Thanks

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed Jan 18, 2023 7:50 pm

p-hyvo wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:33 am Hi! Did anyone here do any power level list for the granola arc? I'd like to see some since I never scaled it and frankly don't want to go through a re read of that pain in the ass of an arc to scale it.

Thanks
I was scaling the saga back when it was releasing. I don't have a power level list so the bulk of it will use Base Goku = 1, but I think we can give power levels for the weaker characters.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Kaboom » Thu Jan 19, 2023 12:34 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 7:50 pmIn the 2010s AT suggested Bardock was weaker than Raditz by saying the former was a lower class warrior and the latter is a higher class. I think this suggests the bulk of the Freeza Army was quite weak, and so are most Saiyans since Raditz got to be middle class with a flimsly BP of 1500. Monaito's PL is stated by Bardock.
I just wanna say, because this particular bit has come up elsewhere and REEEAAALLY annoys me... that's honestly a misinterpretation. The "upper-level" rating for Raditz described in the relevant Q&A was merely a measurement of his strength/potential as a baby.
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A baby’s battle power is measured as soon as they are born. If their numbers pass a certain standard, then they are considered upper-level warriors and immediately raised as combatant candidates. On the other hand, those whose numbers remain low even after a certain amount of time has passed are regarded as lower-level warriors, and become either engineers or are sent off to a planet somewhere as “infiltration babies.” If they grow strong enough to conquer that planet, then they can return to their home world as a combatant. However, infiltration babies do not have a high survival rate. Raditz was an upper-level warrior and assigned to the same group as Nappa as a proper combatant. Before long Vegeta was added to that group, too.
Raditz getting that "upper-level" rating just means that he qualified to be fast-tracked into combat duty as a kid, rather than being shipped off as an "infiltration baby" like li'l Kakarrot was bound for. Growing up, getting stronger, and attaining a "mid-class" rank is an entirely different matter, and something which Raditz was never ever said to actually achieve.

In fact, other material that's commented on his strength and rank says he was a chicken who avoided tough fights and remained weak even by low-class standards. As opposed to Bardock — the real version from the TV special of course rocks his "almost 10,000" power level, but even the newer and wussier version from Minus/Super was still said to be in the upper ranks of the larger low-class tier.

So no, there really isn't any basis for believing that Raditz was ever stronger than either version of Bardock. It's just a recent and weird "reading too much into it" thing.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Thu Jan 19, 2023 2:19 am

I think the issue here is the opposite. It's not that they are reading too much into it, it's that they are taking what was said at "face value", without having the proper interpretation it requires.

Let's assume that the "certain standard" is a power level of "100". Those who are born with a power level below that and continues to be below "100", "become either engineers or are sent off to a planet somewhere as “infiltration babies". We see Raditz on planet Vegeta when Goku was a newborn (as per Granolah saga), assuming he isn't that much older than Goku and taking into consideration what is said in that interview, it means Raditz either was born below "100" but managed to surpass it within the required amount of time, or was born with a power level above that, thus he is "considered upper-level warrior and immediately raised as combatant candidate" which I assume it means staying on planet Vegeta instead of being sent off.

That does not mean those who are born with a power level above the "certain standard" or manage to surpass it are regarded as a mid-class warriors automatically. This is another matter altogether, as already sated. In fact, it would contradict Toriyama's statement that there are only around ten mid-class people. There should have been more if this was the case.

The scheme is then something like this, low class is divided into two groups:


ㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤLower ranks - Become engineers or are sent off to a planet somewhere as “infiltration babies".
Low Class /
ㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤ\
ㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤㅤUpper ranks - Immediately raised as combatant candidates.

This is supported by the tidibit that nearly all Saiyans are low-class people. It's only natural that there would be some sort of division specifically among them.
Last edited by Grimlock on Thu Jan 19, 2023 2:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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