Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Hero » Sat Sep 17, 2022 2:58 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Wed Aug 24, 2022 6:45 pm After watching Super Hero I got hyped and also rewatched Battle of Gods for the first time in almost 10 years. In this rewatch I noticed how legitimate Beerus' line about Base Goku being weaker than Freeza is. He's not baiting Goku into transforming, he's not even interested in SSJ1 at all. It's a genuine commentary on Goku's base power.
Yep. As hilarious and awesome as I find base Gohan literally exploding Frieza with one punch in Fusion Reborn, I can't dismiss such a direct "word of god" about the power of the base Saiyans. It's not Toriyama saying it, but it's the next best thing. It also makes power levels more manageable post-Frieza. Instead of the Saiyans getting hundreds to thousands of times stronger, and then getting the 50x SSJ multipler on top of that, it caps things off and creates tiers instead. So before God ki, Frieza was always low SSJ tier.
But then Gotenks comes and everything falls apart. Lists tend to get really ugly when Gotenks shows up. He's already tough with a 50x multiplier, 125x is just ridiculous.
Yep x2. The way I see it, Gotenks was *supposed* to be massively stronger, but then Toriyama changed his mind. Because if he kept Gotenks that strong, then Goku would be useless cannon fodder to Super Buu. Since he couldn't have Goku suddenly be much stronger, such as Goku revealing he was only going 10% against Fat Buu or such nonsense, Toriyama continued the story as if Gotenks was never much stronger than Gotenks all along. To his credit, it was seamless for most casual fans. My mom and brother just went along with this retcon when Goku returned to the story. It's not like we ever see SSJ Gotenks beat Fat Buu.

And it's not like the anime didn't help the retcon feel more seamless. We have SSJ3 Goku losing but not getting obliterated by Buutenks.
I can get behind Gohan and Gotenks getting rusty, but Boo's power shouldn't change.
To be fair, this is Good Buu, who should be weaker than the original Fat Buu who beats up Majin Vegeta. I have Good Buu as high SSJ2 tier. Adding to this, we can assume Vegeta is stronger than he was in the Buu saga and is a lot more skilled than Fat Buu. So I don't have a problem with Vegeta doing better than Buu even before his rage boost.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Sat Sep 17, 2022 12:18 pm

Hero wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 2:23 am It's been a while since I've posted here, so what better way than with a power level list!! Haha.
Well, some advices :
Androids arc
Piccolo is too much behind the ssjs. If Goku is 300, I'd put him at 270 and trunks at 280. It is stated multiple times that he's almost as strong as a ssj and 17 believed that 18 wouldn't have won against Vegeta and piccolo together.

17 must be x2 Piccolo. Is pretty much globally accepted that fusing with kami is a x2 boost due to a line from guru on namec

Not including imperfect and semi perfect cell lead you to a cascade of errors : everything after rosat is too low.

50% Goku >grade 3 trunks , you put them even instead.

Vegeta and trunks are a bit too close to Goku at the cell games . They should just be around 60-70% of Goku at best.

Cell jrs are roughly as strong as the cell that gave birth to them, stated in daizenshuu.
Also, super perfect cell is literally cell's version of SSJ2. So, there's no reason to have him at more or at less that x2 perfect cell.

Gohan had a huge rageboost turning ssj2, that was literally the point of him transforming and is even brought back during Buu saga , where Gohan is weaker that prior because he can't use rage as he wants since he didn't train to master it. Having him at just x2 his ssj is just wrong .

Dabura is stated stronger than cell. Put him > super perfect cell and it's fine. What matters is that he's a good chunk weaker that ssj2 Vegeta, but he's stronger than a normal ssj by a good margin

Good and evil Buu are too close. Use a 40/60 ratio for them

No matter if ssj gotenks isn't shown fighting fat buu. What matters is what Goku said, he knows the power of fusion so he's trustworthy.

Also, gotenks becomes stronger in rosat and it is even noted by Piccolo. And since piccolo only saw suppressed ssj3 Goku and didn't see any difference with gotenks' ssj3, I'd say that you can even use a x200 for gotenks' ssj3.

Ssj3 gotenks is a bit stronger than super buu

Just don't trust bog for the base Goku < Frieza thing, because the larger context both in anime and manga, with Beerus still being uncertain of Goku beating Frieza after seeing his ssj (lmao), debunks the thing. Let's just say that Beerus is so far ahead every mortal that he fails to judge their strength and call it a day, exactly how we humans aren't capable to tell what ant is stronger if we see a bunch. And Goku ssj3> mystic gohan in bog . It is both shown in the movie and flat out stated in the anime that after Buu Goku is the strongest.

Also, kid Buu can be scaled > super Buu. I personally do so. What matters is that he's behind mystic gohan, but that's my opinion and you can perfectly say super > kid for what matters. The important thing is that kid >>ssj3 Goku, since he was blatantly toying around with Goku and Vegeta for all the time

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Sep 18, 2022 12:03 am

Hero wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 2:23 am It's been a while since I've posted here, so what better way than with a power level list!! Haha.
A) Isn't Piccolo's fusion with Kami implied to be a x2 boost?
B) Dabura not SS2 tier?
C) Super Boo and Gotenks are a little too close to Goku for my liking. I feel 45 Billion should be better but that's just me.
D) Base Vegetto under SS3 Goku? I really want to hear why you think that.
E) Shouldn't Gohan in RoF be at least stronger than Piccolo? Unless you think Piccolo for whatever reason got weaker than 1 Billion.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Hero » Sun Sep 18, 2022 2:24 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 12:03 am
Hero wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 2:23 am It's been a while since I've posted here, so what better way than with a power level list!! Haha.
A) Isn't Piccolo's fusion with Kami implied to be a x2 boost?
B) Dabura not SS2 tier?
C) Super Boo and Gotenks are a little too close to Goku for my liking. I feel 45 Billion should be better but that's just me.
D) Base Vegetto under SS3 Goku? I really want to hear why you think that.
E) Shouldn't Gohan in RoF be at least stronger than Piccolo? Unless you think Piccolo for whatever reason got weaker than 1 Billion.
A. Where was it implied that it's exactly 2x (or super close to it)? Genuinely asking.

B. I'm on the "Gohan was SSJ1 against Dabura" team. Gohan struggling was more him slacking on his training than Dabura being in the same league as Super Perfect Cell.

C. I actually agree, but I'm trying to limit Gotenks so that SSJ3 Goku isn't complete cannon fodder compared to Ultimate Gohan.

D. We never see Base Vegito against Buuhan in the manga, right? Unless I'm wrong, that means Vegito's base can be as weak or as strong as you like. I just put SSJ Vegito as 10x stronger than Buuhan, so his base is 5x weaker than Buuhan in the manga.

E. Yeah, you're right. Gohan should be stronger than I listed him as. Then again, Piccolo was struggling against some random soldier haha.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Sun Sep 18, 2022 3:45 pm

Hero wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 2:24 pm
A. Where was it implied that it's exactly 2x (or super close to it)? Genuinely asking.
It comes from this line in the Freeza arc:
Chapter: 265 (DBZ 71), P3.4-5
Great Elder: “Hmf! He split in two, long ago…after evil entered into him! How foolish… He diminished by half the genius power with which he was gifted at birth! If he had come back together as one, he might not have had to die…”
Most fans think the opposite must be true and that fusing again would double their power.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Sep 18, 2022 4:34 pm

Hero wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 2:24 pm A. Where was it implied that it's exactly 2x (or super close to it)? Genuinely asking.

B. I'm on the "Gohan was SSJ1 against Dabura" team. Gohan struggling was more him slacking on his training than Dabura being in the same league as Super Perfect Cell.

C. I actually agree, but I'm trying to limit Gotenks so that SSJ3 Goku isn't complete cannon fodder compared to Ultimate Gohan.

D. We never see Base Vegito against Buuhan in the manga, right? Unless I'm wrong, that means Vegito's base can be as weak or as strong as you like. I just put SSJ Vegito as 10x stronger than Buuhan, so his base is 5x weaker than Buuhan in the manga.

E. Yeah, you're right. Gohan should be stronger than I listed him as. Then again, Piccolo was struggling against some random soldier haha.
A) The Grand Namek Elder said that the Nameless Namek divided is genius/power in half when he split into Piccolo and Kami. Logic tells me that if they reunite then the boost should be x2.
B) I would agree but everything else (Anime, Super manga, guides) says or implies Dabura was SS2 tier so I go with that.
C) But I only said to bump Super Boo and Gotenks. Goku is fine where he is.
D) True. The Daizenshuu does say his base power is superior to SS3 but I suppose it can be ignored if desired.
E) If you talking about Shisami then Toriyama's script actually never compares him to Zarbon or Dodoria. The script actually goes out of his way to say that Freeza hired powerful mercenaries to his army and it says Shisami is the strongest one. I see no issue with Freeza finding a soldier as strong as Piccolo duting those 4 months.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Sep 18, 2022 9:04 pm

I genuinely never saw this Namekian Saichoro line being ever brought up to powerscale Piccolo after he reunited with his other half. Rather it seems he split his power in half back when he became two people. The difference between their powers in Android arc was obviously too great to use that line as basis.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Mon Sep 19, 2022 11:26 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 9:04 pm I genuinely never saw this Namekian Saichoro line being ever brought up to powerscale Piccolo after he reunited with his other half. Rather it seems he split his power in half back when he became two people. The difference between their powers in Android arc was obviously too great to use that line as basis.
That's how I see it, too. If the numbers work out so that a 2x boost works in the Cell Arc, so be it, but I'm not going to restrict myself to it, either.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon Sep 19, 2022 11:31 am

Even the idea of a even split is wrong because old Kami was dimensions above even young Piccolo. 2x tends to be a good number, but I’m going with 1.66x right now.

Piccolo: 240
SSJ Trunks: 270
SSJ Goku: 288
SSJ Vegeta: 300
Future Androids: 310-320
Gingertown Cell: 315
Weighted Kamiccolo: 375
Android 18: 390
Android 17: 400
FP Kamiccolo: 400
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Sep 19, 2022 11:38 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 11:31 am Even the idea of a even split is wrong because old Kami was dimensions above even young Piccolo. 2x tends to be a good number, but I’m going with 1.66x right now.

Piccolo: 240
SSJ Trunks: 270
SSJ Goku: 288
SSJ Vegeta: 300
Future Androids: 310-320
Gingertown Cell: 315
Weighted Kamiccolo: 375
Android 18: 390
Android 17: 400
FP Kamiccolo: 400
Kami trained after they split. King Piccolo never did.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Mon Sep 19, 2022 1:27 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 11:31 am Even the idea of a even split is wrong because old Kami was dimensions above even young Piccolo. 2x tends to be a good number, but I’m going with 1.66x right now.
I would assume the difference comes from the 300ish years they spent apart. Whereas Daimao spent most of that time twiddling his thumbs in a rice cooker, God probably kept training for a while. However strong Daimao was when Goku fought him is probably about how strong God was immediately after the split.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by QuakingStar » Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:30 pm

Another thing people keep forgeting is that Toriyama said 50x is an exaggeration when using the original SS.

In order to even tie FP Frieza SS Goku would have needed to have a PL of 120,000,000 and when Frieza first reached his FP he was tied with Goku and at one point even knocked him out cold to the point nobody could sense Goku at all and Frieza remained his equal until he started losing power.

3,000,000 x 40 = 120,000,000

So I honestly thing the original SS is 40x the users power, Super Saiyan Fourth Grade is 50x, and then SS2 is double SS4G.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:47 pm

QuakingStar wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:30 pm Another thing people keep forgeting is that Toriyama said 50x is an exaggeration when using the original SS.
I think this line was already covered up and Toriyama never implied the 50-fold multiplier was wrong. He only implied the power boost was too great for what he visually created, that he envisioned more like a 10-fold for what it ended up looking like. This power boost was also reprinted several times later in other guidebooks, so there isn’t really much credence to this claim.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:52 pm

QuakingStar wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:30 pm Another thing people keep forgeting is that Toriyama said 50x is an exaggeration when using the original SS.

In order to even tie FP Frieza SS Goku would have needed to have a PL of 120,000,000 and when Frieza first reached his FP he was tied with Goku and at one point even knocked him out cold to the point nobody could sense Goku at all and Frieza remained his equal until he started losing power.

3,000,000 x 40 = 120,000,000

So I honestly thing the original SS is 40x the users power, Super Saiyan Fourth Grade is 50x, and then SS2 is double SS4G.
Sounds more like Freeza is higher than 120 million for me. 50% Freeza's exchange with Kkx20 Goku also shows Freeza as Goku's superior.

50% Freeza >/>> KKx20 Goku
SSJ Goku >= 100% Freeza

Not sure why the Daizenshuu 7 people decided to have it the other way around.
ZombieVito wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 11:38 am Kami trained after they split. King Piccolo never did.
DanielSSJ wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 1:27 pm I would assume the difference comes from the 300ish years they spent apart. Whereas Daimao spent most of that time twiddling his thumbs in a rice cooker, God probably kept training for a while. However strong Daimao was when Goku fought him is probably about how strong God was immediately after the split.
That's a reasonable assumption, but it's not stated anywhere in the series. We just know Katatz Jr was training with the former Kami before the split. Piccolo also calls Kami a slacker, but that might just be about old Kami.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Mon Sep 19, 2022 5:48 pm

QuakingStar wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:30 pm Another thing people keep forgeting is that Toriyama said 50x is an exaggeration when using the original SS.
It's not that we forget that Toriyama said it, it's that most of us ignore it, because part of that statement includes Toriyama saying Super Saiyan only felt like a 10-fold boost, which doesn't remotely work without a lot of mental gymnastics.
In order to even tie FP Frieza SS Goku would have needed to have a PL of 120,000,000 and when Frieza first reached his FP he was tied with Goku and at one point even knocked him out cold to the point nobody could sense Goku at all and Frieza remained his equal until he started losing power.

3,000,000 x 40 = 120,000,000

So I honestly thing the original SS is 40x the users power, Super Saiyan Fourth Grade is 50x, and then SS2 is double SS4G.
The bit where Freeza hits Goku with that red barrier attack and knocks him out of the fight for an extended period of time is mostly anime filler. In the manga, Goku is only out of the picture for a few pages, and he gets back up before anyone notices anything wrong, let alone for Gohan to return to the battlefield and try to finish the fight in Goku's stead. And aside from that one hit, Goku pretty much has complete control of the fight, start to finish.
Hugo Boss wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:47 pm I think this line was already covered up and Toriyama never implied the 50-fold multiplier was wrong. He only implied the power boost was too great for what he visually created, that he envisioned more like a 10-fold for what it ended up looking like. This power boost was also reprinted several times later in other guidebooks, so there isn’t really much credence to this claim.
It's also reprinted in the same guidebook Toriyama dropped the 10-fold statement in the first place. Definitely seems to me like Toriyama was commenting on the creative process rather than trying to correct the series lore.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:12 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:52 pm That's a reasonable assumption, but it's not stated anywhere in the series. We just know Katatz Jr was training with the former Kami before the split. Piccolo also calls Kami a slacker, but that might just be about old Kami.
Doesn't really need to be stated to be honest. We know that the Nameless Namekian halved his power after splitting in two which means before that he was at 520 since King Piccolo is at 260. Now since Kami is shown to be a lot stronger than the Goku that killed King Piccolo then the only way this can happen is if Kami indeed trained in those 300 years.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:02 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 12:02 pm How strong was Gohan on Namek, calm and enraged, pre and post Zenkai? We know the baseline for his power level is 200,000; but anything after this is pretty muddy. He’s definitely stronger than Vegeta when enraged, but all he does is get Freeza by surprise. Post Zenkai he (probably enraged) managed to push back 3rd form Freeza, but then Freeza just bounced it back. Both times he fight Freeza he deals 0 damage to Freeza, but still compels him to transform nonetheless.
Last time I watched the Namek arc, I came up with these numbers:

Gohan:
-- after resting and whatnot before the Freeza fight: 300,000
-- rage boost vs 1st form Freeza: 900,000 and back to normal
-- after zenkai: 700,000
-- rage boost vs 3rd form Freeza: 2,100M
-- back on Earth: 1,500 M (a 2x zenkai boost seems ok, if at all, he didn't suffer enough to deserve a zenkai, so perhaps he is at 1M or less)

Piccolo: 1,200 M
-- weights off: 1,500 M

Freeza
2nd form: + 1 M
-- FP: 1,500M
-3rd form: 2,300 M
-4th form: 3,6 M

Gohan's rage boost seem to be strong enough to annoy Freeza to the point of transforming, even though he is never in real trouble.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Thu Sep 22, 2022 7:56 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:02 pm
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 12:02 pm How strong was Gohan on Namek, calm and enraged, pre and post Zenkai? We know the baseline for his power level is 200,000; but anything after this is pretty muddy. He’s definitely stronger than Vegeta when enraged, but all he does is get Freeza by surprise. Post Zenkai he (probably enraged) managed to push back 3rd form Freeza, but then Freeza just bounced it back. Both times he fight Freeza he deals 0 damage to Freeza, but still compels him to transform nonetheless.
Last time I watched the Namek arc, I came up with these numbers:

Gohan:
-- after resting and whatnot before the Freeza fight: 300,000
-- rage boost vs 1st form Freeza: 900,000 and back to normal
-- after zenkai: 700,000
-- rage boost vs 3rd form Freeza: 2,100M
-- back on Earth: 1,500 M (a 2x zenkai boost seems ok, if at all, he didn't suffer enough to deserve a zenkai, so perhaps he is at 1M or less)

Piccolo: 1,200 M
-- weights off: 1,500 M

Freeza
2nd form: + 1 M
-- FP: 1,500M
-3rd form: 2,300 M
-4th form: 3,6 M

Gohan's rage boost seem to be strong enough to annoy Freeza to the point of transforming, even though he is never in real trouble.
How strong do you think Vegeta is? Between 2.3 and 3 million looks like a small spot for him.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Mireya » Fri Sep 23, 2022 12:54 am

I don't know if Kami got that stronger since Piccolo called him a lazy or a slacker and said he could be trouble if he trained iirc. Unless he trained, got like 3x stronger, then slacked off and got powered down to like 2x post split, which is a slacker in Piccolo's mind as if he had kept up training 100% he could have become way more powerful. I dunno.

It's also worth noting that Siachoro was surprised with the fact Piccolo was killed and assumed Vegeta was a SSj. If the original Namekian were merely 2x king Piccolo (roughly on 23rd Budokai final competitors level maybe), wouldn't that be far too low considering how the great elder seemed to treat him and think a SSj was required to beat him? Unless he thought the child of Katatz would improve himself tremendously in all that time separating the time of the split and Vegeta's arrival. I dunno.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Goku9001 » Fri Sep 23, 2022 2:52 am

Mireya wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 12:54 am I don't know if Kami got that stronger since Piccolo called him a lazy or a slacker and said he could be trouble if he trained iirc. Unless he trained, got like 3x stronger, then slacked off and got powered down to like 2x post split, which is a slacker in Piccolo's mind as if he had kept up training 100% he could have become way more powerful. I dunno.

It's also worth noting that Siachoro was surprised with the fact Piccolo was killed and assumed Vegeta was a SSj. If the original Namekian were merely 2x king Piccolo (roughly on 23rd Budokai final competitors level maybe), wouldn't that be far too low considering how the great elder seemed to treat him and think a SSj was required to beat him? Unless he thought the child of Katatz would improve himself tremendously in all that time separating the time of the split and Vegeta's arrival. I dunno.
The statement Siachoro made was in respect to the Nameless Namekian had he been split apart and presumably been training with his full latent power. It's only after Siachoro recalls Piccolo's power through Kuririn that he assumed Piccolo, had he been one with Kami, may not have died against Nappa and Vegeta. I think this works out fairly well. At a battle power of around 2000, doubling that to 4000 may leave Piccolo with enough wiggle room to survive long enough for Goku to show up. That isn't enough to think the Nameless Namekian would be unbeatable outside of a Super Saiyan so I think this is where the difference lies.

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