Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

I’m failing to see how exactly there is any proof that Base Vegeta is stronger Piccolo and No.18, since he never fought someone as strong or stronger than them. It’s not like Vegeta is even forbid of using Super Saiyan in short bursts, like his kid did and as he did against Goku some arcs later. So, whatever he says, in a actual fight he could make adjustments to suit the need. Besides, Dabra obviously can’t sense their true strength, so his remark is off from the start.

[Koitsukai]

Doubt what you want, but the manga implies that.

Yes, vegeta is arrogant, but piccolo and 18 are too and none of them said nothing.

And no, majin piccolo wasn't supposed to appear. It is just a videogame what if story or something.

Buu saga has an exaggerated scaling, I acknowledge that.
we see goten and trunks facing 18 in base and scaring the hell out of her by shooting as suppressed ki blast as ssjs, vegeta implies to be stronger than her and Dabura implies that base Saiyans are stronger than piccolo, so it is all coherent

Base Adult Saiyans>piccolo>>18>base kids

Stop using headcanon and start using actual feats and dialogues for scaling

I think the headcanon is from your part. Also you should review that attitude because it is NOT how people debate in Kanzenshuu.

The saiyans were hiding their ki, so Dabura couldn't possibly feel their actual power. Whatever Dabura "felt" had nothing to do with their base strenght, which were at least 50x weaker than Dabura -hardly remarkable to comment on-, so he must've meant their SS forms.
Also we know BoG implied the base forms weren't Freeza level, so I'll take Toriyama's word over somebody's interpretation of an inconsistency.

Piccolo wasn't in the plane at the time Vegeta blew smoke up his own ass, and even if he was, not engaging him wouldn't be new either. When was the last time Piccolo started yelling at him "No, you can't beat me, I'm stronger and my dad can beat yours too? or 18 for that matter? she isn't someone to participate in those silly arguments either, or any argument to be fair. Her silence means nothing.

Nah man, I'm no headcanon.

I've already explained why the bog thing isn't to take at face value, and literally every power scaler I know and respect thinks the same for what matters.

Well yes, saiyans and piccolo were both suppressed but still them>piccolo considerably

Seeing the kids compete with 18 should prevent anyone from thinking that the adults can in anyway, shape or form be weaker than freezer.

Toriyama is a simple minded man, his scaling is clear. He obviously meant base Saiyans to be stronger than piccolo in buu saga. Dialogues and facts speak for that.

Stop taking a lone at face value isolating it from any sort of context, really.

I'm into db scaling from a a lot of time, and I can guarantee that if you follow both dialogues and facts only talking about cell saga, it is impossibile to obtain that base Cell games Saiyans are weaker than freezer.

It is just impossible if you don't bend something to your will to obtain it, meaning to do it or not.

Literally, base future trunks makes cell fly away at the end of the saga, that should speak for it. No way someone way weaker than freezer could do such thing. I know, he then turns ssj to finish him, but anyway he can perfectly be just a little stronger than him in base but not enough to finish him easily. All fits, that's what toriyama drew so no mistake.

The bolded part is the definition of headcanon, so yes, you are indulging in it, which is not a problem, only when you censor others doing it too.

No, they were not "supressed", they were hiding their ki, they were at zero. An inconsistency only explained if Dabura could've felt their true potential as SS.
Might Mask vs 18 is a gag and unconventional fight that it's quite silly to take at face value. She wasn't going for the kill, didn't even know who she was fighting, they had to turn SS and she got them disqualified.

Your explanation about BoG isn't enough. How do you know Beerus has no idea of Freeza's real power? only because it was never shown or blatantly said? absence of evidence isn't evidence.
He has access to Whis' staff, he even saw part of the Namek fight, and he knows Freeza for 50 years at the very least. He saw SS pummeling Freeza, then he sees base Goku and concludes "this isn't the power I saw earlier, as you are now you are not that strong"
Besides, it wasn't included in the movie just so we could headcanon our way out of the actual implication: base saiyans < Namek Freeza. Lol, what point would that serve? your only argument against the statement the author wrote into the script is to doubt the source based on something you ASSUME he has no way of knowing.
Like it or not, contradicting your previous believes or not, that is what Toriyama was going with.

About Trunks, you answered it yourself, he didn't fight in his base. Only used it to move away from the city a confident fighter who never thought his enemy could've been a problem at all. Goku punched android 20 in the face. Krilin cut Freeza's tail.

You dismiss the most in-the-face statement regarding base strenght we've ever gotten because you don't like it, yet you over-analyse and nitpick comments on a plane and Dabura feeling ki from people hiding their ki, while telling other posters which statements to consider and which to discard.

[Skar]

I've already explained why the bog thing isn't to take at face value, and literally every power scaler I know and respect thinks the same for what matters.

If Toriyama intended for what Beerus said to be wrong, he could've had Goku dispute it or simply not include the line in the first place. That line wasn't necessary and Beerus could've just asked Goku to show his full power.

The issue with the scene on the plane is that all the Saiyans agreed not to transform including the kids who thought they would participating with the adults at the time. I don't think anything confirms SSJ Goten and Trunks are stronger than Piccolo. Buutenks took on Piccolo's appearance after Gotenks defused. Piccolo was chosen over them in the Champa saga and he probably didn't improved much since the Buu saga because he was still weaker than a weakened SSJ Gohan in RoF.

In the Buu saga, Vegeta and Gohan needed SSJ to spar with Goten and Trunks so I think it goes SSJ adult Saiyans > Piccolo > SSJ kids > base adult Saiyans > base kids.

[Hugo Boss]

Besides, when SS2 Goku and SS2 Vegeta are compared to SS2 Kid Gohan, that seems to be benchmark they only surpass with SS2. Let’s not forget that in Cell Arc, Piccolo had a very similar performance against the Cell Jrs. as SS Vegeta and SS Trunks. If Vegeta has crossed that line so quickly in his normal form, surpassing a stronger version of Piccolo, they would directly imply it or subtext would make it clear.

[despayeeto593]

It's impossible for Piccolo to be weaker than the Buu Saga base Saiyans.
In the Cell Games, he was keeping up with the Cell Juniors, so he's at least in the same range as CG Trunks and Vegeta, who should have surpassed 50% CG Goku. The only way he could be weaker is if the base saiyans got like 40x stronger in the 7 years, which is impossible with CG Gohan still being used as a benchmark.

[BWri]

I didn't know that the base saiyans > Piccolo during the Buu saga debate was still going on. Base saiyans definitely cannot be stronger than Piccolo since they were still using SSJ2 Gohan from the Cell games as a benchmark, meaning as SSJ2 neither of them were so far beyond that to make that level of power irrelevant. Even if you grant them being 2x or 3x as strong as SSJ2 Gohan or even 4x which is way beyond the pale IMO, then Piccolo still outclasses their base forms. For the record, I max them out at about 2.5x myself.

SSJ1 multiplier = 50x
SSJ2 multiplier = 100x
Piccolo = Somewhere between an SSJ1 and SSJ Grade 2
SSJ Grade 2 = Somewhere between SSJ1 and FPSSJ
FPSSJ = Somewhere between SSJ1 and SSJ2

Piccolo was much more powerful than a normal SSJ and not so far off from SSJ Grade 2. In the anime and manga, he was one of three to weather the Cell Jrs attacks and remain standing.

Spoiler:

The anime gave him greater buffs so that he outperformed every other ally on the battlefield except for Gohan. The Super anime does follow anime continuity after all. But if Piccolo is nearly on par with a form that is likely 60 to 75 times stronger than a Cell Saga Saiyan then to surpass him in base, those Saiyans would have to become 60 to 75 times stronger than him or greater in base and that's just ridiculous. It only works if Gohan was completely removed from the Babidi scene that people cling to for this silly argument.

For this argument to work, Gohan's base would also have to be 60 to 75 times stronger or greater than he was in the Cell saga and we all know that the opposite is true and that Gohan became weaker. So that Babidi/Dabura statement doesn't mean what proponents of this theory think it means otherwise Gohan would also have been spit on.

Or is the argument that FPSSJ doesn't increase the power output of SSJ but instead increases base power? That's a different argument, but at least it makes more sense than the one above. I still think this doesn't work either because its clear to me that Goku and Gohan output more power as SSJ during the Cell arc and that it was the main focus of their training. Either way, this argument needs to die.

[dbgtFO]

I didn't know that the base saiyans > Piccolo during the Buu saga debate was still going on. Base saiyans definitely cannot be stronger than Piccolo since they were still using SSJ2 Gohan from the Cell games as a benchmark, meaning as SSJ2 neither of them were so far beyond that to make that level of power irrelevant. Even if you grant them being 2x or 3x as strong as SSJ2 Gohan or even 4x which is way beyond the pale IMO, then Piccolo still outclasses their base forms. For the record, I max them out at about 2.5x myself.

Spoiler:

SSJ1 multiplier = 50x
SSJ2 multiplier = 100x
Piccolo = Somewhere between an SSJ1 and SSJ Grade 2
SSJ Grade 2 = Somewhere between SSJ1 and FPSSJ
FPSSJ = Somewhere between SSJ1 and SSJ2

Piccolo was much more powerful than a normal SSJ and not so far off from SSJ Grade 2. In the anime and manga, he was one of three to weather the Cell Jrs attacks and remain standing.

Spoiler:

The anime gave him greater buffs so that he outperformed every other ally on the battlefield except for Gohan. The Super anime does follow anime continuity after all. But if Piccolo is nearly on par with a form that is likely 60 to 75 times stronger than a Cell Saga Saiyan then to surpass him in base, those Saiyans would have to become 60 to 75 times stronger than him or greater in base and that's just ridiculous. It only works if Gohan was completely removed from the Babidi scene that people cling to for this silly argument.

For this argument to work, Gohan's base would also have to be 60 to 75 times stronger or greater than he was in the Cell saga and we all know that the opposite is true and that Gohan became weaker. So that Babidi/Dabura statement doesn't mean what proponents of this theory think it means otherwise Gohan would also have been spit on.

Or is the argument that FPSSJ doesn't increase the power output of SSJ but instead increases base power? That's a different argument, but at least it makes more sense than the one above. I still think this doesn't work either because its clear to me that Goku and Gohan output more power as SSJ during the Cell arc and that it was the main focus of their training. Either way, this argument needs to die.

Yeah, In order for it to make sense with multipliers and all that Piccolo had to have gotten massively weaker.
Really Piccolo's power is an afterthought in the Buu Arc, the only thing that does suggest he's still a powerhouse to some of the Saiyans is Buu taking on his appearance after Gotenks' fusion wears off, which is in contrast to how he was shaking his boots, when the kids went max power at the Palace, whereas base Goku stood still.

[BWri]

I didn't know that the base saiyans > Piccolo during the Buu saga debate was still going on. Base saiyans definitely cannot be stronger than Piccolo since they were still using SSJ2 Gohan from the Cell games as a benchmark, meaning as SSJ2 neither of them were so far beyond that to make that level of power irrelevant. Even if you grant them being 2x or 3x as strong as SSJ2 Gohan or even 4x which is way beyond the pale IMO, then Piccolo still outclasses their base forms. For the record, I max them out at about 2.5x myself.

Spoiler:

SSJ1 multiplier = 50x
SSJ2 multiplier = 100x
Piccolo = Somewhere between an SSJ1 and SSJ Grade 2
SSJ Grade 2 = Somewhere between SSJ1 and FPSSJ
FPSSJ = Somewhere between SSJ1 and SSJ2

Piccolo was much more powerful than a normal SSJ and not so far off from SSJ Grade 2. In the anime and manga, he was one of three to weather the Cell Jrs attacks and remain standing.

Spoiler:

The anime gave him greater buffs so that he outperformed every other ally on the battlefield except for Gohan. The Super anime does follow anime continuity after all. But if Piccolo is nearly on par with a form that is likely 60 to 75 times stronger than a Cell Saga Saiyan then to surpass him in base, those Saiyans would have to become 60 to 75 times stronger than him or greater in base and that's just ridiculous. It only works if Gohan was completely removed from the Babidi scene that people cling to for this silly argument.

For this argument to work, Gohan's base would also have to be 60 to 75 times stronger or greater than he was in the Cell saga and we all know that the opposite is true and that Gohan became weaker. So that Babidi/Dabura statement doesn't mean what proponents of this theory think it means otherwise Gohan would also have been spit on.

Or is the argument that FPSSJ doesn't increase the power output of SSJ but instead increases base power? That's a different argument, but at least it makes more sense than the one above. I still think this doesn't work either because its clear to me that Goku and Gohan output more power as SSJ during the Cell arc and that it was the main focus of their training. Either way, this argument needs to die.

Yeah, In order for it to make sense with multipliers and all that Piccolo had to have gotten massively weaker.
Really Piccolo's power is an afterthought in the Buu Arc, the only thing that does suggest he's still a powerhouse to some of the Saiyans is Buu taking on his appearance after Gotenks' fusion wears off, which is in contrast to how he was shaking his boots, when the kids went max power at the Palace, whereas base Goku stood still.

I think it's just that people place too much emphasis on certain statements and moments instead of viewing the full picture. It's always been like that with the fandom even when the clear answer is right there. Whatever Babidi and Dabura said about worthy fighters is negated if Gohan is included unless they were talking about their full SSJ potential, because Gohan is weaker than he was in the previous arc and in that arc his base was not even close to Piccolo. Simple as that.

And people seem to really have an issue with Piccolo's level of strength in particular. It's been like that since he fought Gero. People will really come up with convoluted ways to explain how his foes were extremely weak instead of him simply being as strong as the show is implying him to be. Frost and Gero are two examples of that. I've read way too many people assume that Frost was only as strong as Frieza on Namek or Semi-Cell to justify Piccolo's performance against him. And I still remember when folks said Gero and #19 were much weaker than Namek Frieza.

In my twelve or so years engaging with various DB fandoms, including here, his strength has been regularly downplayed. Still is to this day. It's like you say, his strength wasn't the focus of his Buu saga scenes but to even assume that he lost strength or somehow became outclassed by a rusty base Gohan is absurd.

Piccolo ended the Cell arc much stronger than a standard SSJ and comparative to an SSJ Grade 2 despite going into the RoSaT once to Vegeta and Trunks two trips. He was weaker than them for sure but either medium shows that he's in the ballpark, at least enough to withstand the Cell Jr. assault. And we know that he does nothing but train in his off time and he's had 7 years to do just that.

Knowing how he operates, you can guess that he'd surpass the level of his closest rivals at the very least. I'm confident he surpassed SSJ Grade 2 Vegeta and Trunks in no time at all with his standard training. And after that his goal would have been Goku's FPSSJ. To me, that's the real debate, is if he reached or surpassed Goku's level during the Cell Games. I could go either way on if he did or not, but I tend to think he didn't but was much closer to it than people give him credit for. It's just, compared to Gohan who's FPSSJ was vastly stronger than Goku's, Piccolo's power increase would still not be very impressive in the Buu arc. I think, even with the power Gohan lost, that his rusty FPSSJ was still superior to Goku's prime in the Cell arc. Either way you slice it, however strong Piccolo became still paled in comparison to all the new foes and even rusty Gohan's Super Saiyan power, but he was never so irrelevant to warrant being surpassed by base Saiyans who were still comparing themselves to the previous arc.

[Mireya]

Base Vegeta is very likely above Piccolo in the Boo saga, as implied by Gohan proposing the "no SSJ" rule knowing Piccolo would participate and Vegeta bragging confidence knowing that at least #18 would be there. The only thing against it are "multipliers". But if you set aside fixed multipliers for the SSJs then having base Vegeta in the Boo saga as close to a Cell Junior becomes an easy endeavour.

[Hugo Boss]

Base Vegeta is very likely above Piccolo in the Boo saga, as implied by Gohan proposing the "no SSJ" rule knowing Piccolo would participate and Vegeta bragging confidence knowing that at least #18 would be there. The only thing against it are "multipliers". But if you set aside fixed multipliers for the SSJs then having base Vegeta in the Boo saga as close to a Cell Junior becomes an easy endeavour.

This again? What stops Vegeta from using a short burst of Super Saiyan against either Piccolo or No.18? What makes you think that Vegeta will even follow Gohan’s warning?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Base Vegeta is very likely above Piccolo in the Boo saga, as implied by Gohan proposing the "no SSJ" rule knowing Piccolo would participate and Vegeta bragging confidence knowing that at least #18 would be there. The only thing against it are "multipliers". But if you set aside fixed multipliers for the SSJs then having base Vegeta in the Boo saga as close to a Cell Junior becomes an easy endeavour.

This again? What stops Vegeta from using a short burst of Super Saiyan against either Piccolo or No.18? What makes you think that Vegeta will even follow Gohan’s warning?

There's also the idea to consider that maybe Piccolo and 18 won't be fighting all-out either for sporting purposes.

[Mad Swami]

Base Vegeta is very likely above Piccolo in the Boo saga, as implied by Gohan proposing the "no SSJ" rule knowing Piccolo would participate and Vegeta bragging confidence knowing that at least #18 would be there. The only thing against it are "multipliers". But if you set aside fixed multipliers for the SSJs then having base Vegeta in the Boo saga as close to a Cell Junior becomes an easy endeavour.

This again? What stops Vegeta from using a short burst of Super Saiyan against either Piccolo or No.18? What makes you think that Vegeta will even follow Gohan’s warning?

There's also the idea to consider that maybe Piccolo and 18 won't be fighting all-out either for sporting purposes.

Not to mention another obvious point, Vegeta's line was about how soft everyone else got. There is so much that explains the blatently false, arrogant remark. Vegeta spent two years in the Hyper Bolic time chamber the guy knows how to be hyperbolic

[Mireya]

Base Vegeta is very likely above Piccolo in the Boo saga, as implied by Gohan proposing the "no SSJ" rule knowing Piccolo would participate and Vegeta bragging confidence knowing that at least #18 would be there. The only thing against it are "multipliers". But if you set aside fixed multipliers for the SSJs then having base Vegeta in the Boo saga as close to a Cell Junior becomes an easy endeavour.

This again? What stops Vegeta from using a short burst of Super Saiyan against either Piccolo or No.18? What makes you think that Vegeta will even follow Gohan’s warning?

Yes, this again. So what? Can't I bring back a subject that I found worth adding my point?

And no indication that a SSJ would be used in bursts. Vegeta was initially reluctant in fighting as a SSJ and Gohan in no time seemed to propose Vegeta to use it in small bursts in case he fought against someone bigger than what he could chew while in base. The rethoric relied entirely on them not becoming known to the others. In fact, Gohan seemed adamant of his chances against Kibito while hiding his true strength, i.e, fighting limited to his base state... the burst usability didn't come as a relief to this tension. Is there also even an indication that they can use the SSJ in quick bursts similar to the Kaioken? The only examples that come to mind are future Trunks using it to blast the androids before they could activate #16 and Goten using it to free himself from Trunks' bear hug, both of which were still used for a noticeable time, with the latter being still even noticed and commented on by the crowd.

[Mad Swami]

Base Vegeta is very likely above Piccolo in the Boo saga, as implied by Gohan proposing the "no SSJ" rule knowing Piccolo would participate and Vegeta bragging confidence knowing that at least #18 would be there. The only thing against it are "multipliers". But if you set aside fixed multipliers for the SSJs then having base Vegeta in the Boo saga as close to a Cell Junior becomes an easy endeavour.

This again? What stops Vegeta from using a short burst of Super Saiyan against either Piccolo or No.18? What makes you think that Vegeta will even follow Gohan’s warning?

Yes, this again. So what? Can't I bring back a subject that I found worth adding my point?

And no indication that a SSJ would be used in bursts. Vegeta was initially reluctant in fighting as a SSJ and Gohan in no time seemed to propose Vegeta to use it in small bursts in case he fought against someone bigger than what he could chew while in base. The rethoric relied entirely on them not becoming known to the others. In fact, Gohan seemed adamant of his chances against Kibito while hiding his true strength, i.e, fighting limited to his base state... the burst usability didn't come as a relief to this tension. Is there also even an indication that they can use the SSJ in quick bursts similar to the Kaioken? The only examples that come to mind are future Trunks using it to blast the androids before they could activate #16 and Goten using it to free himself from Trunks' bear hug, both of which were still used for a noticeable time, with the latter being still even noticed and commented on by the crowd.

but there is so much against it.
1. Piccolo is absolutely stronger than Goten and Trunks as SSJ as shown when Buu goes from Buutenks to Buucolo. Granted you can say this makes him stronger than the both of them in base, but I believe that Buu would pump their power as SSJ as opposed to simply their base.
2. Piccolo just trains for seven years, how could Saiyans far surpass him to irrelevancy. Especially when Vegeta during the first years was probably disheartened
3. Vegeta is overconfident and is most likely calling everyone soft
4. Piccolo is apparently Toriyama's favorite why would he do him so dirty

[Koitsukai]

This again? What stops Vegeta from using a short burst of Super Saiyan against either Piccolo or No.18? What makes you think that Vegeta will even follow Gohan’s warning?

Yes, this again. So what? Can't I bring back a subject that I found worth adding my point?

And no indication that a SSJ would be used in bursts. Vegeta was initially reluctant in fighting as a SSJ and Gohan in no time seemed to propose Vegeta to use it in small bursts in case he fought against someone bigger than what he could chew while in base. The rethoric relied entirely on them not becoming known to the others. In fact, Gohan seemed adamant of his chances against Kibito while hiding his true strength, i.e, fighting limited to his base state... the burst usability didn't come as a relief to this tension. Is there also even an indication that they can use the SSJ in quick bursts similar to the Kaioken? The only examples that come to mind are future Trunks using it to blast the androids before they could activate #16 and Goten using it to free himself from Trunks' bear hug, both of which were still used for a noticeable time, with the latter being still even noticed and commented on by the crowd.

but there is so much against it.
1. Piccolo is absolutely stronger than Goten and Trunks as SSJ as shown when Buu goes from Buutenks to Buucolo. Granted you can say this makes him stronger than the both of them in base, but I believe that Buu would pump their power as SSJ as opposed to simply their base.
2. Piccolo just trains for seven years, how could Saiyans far surpass him to irrelevancy. Especially when Vegeta during the first years was probably disheartened
3. Vegeta is overconfident and is most likely calling everyone soft
4. Piccolo is apparently Toriyama's favorite why would he do him so dirty

5) Beerus in BoG checks out base Goku and concludes he couldn't have defeated Freeza in that form.

[Mireya]

1. Piccolo is absolutely stronger than Goten and Trunks as SSJ as shown when Buu goes from Buutenks to Buucolo. Granted you can say this makes him stronger than the both of them in base, but I believe that Buu would pump their power as SSJ as opposed to simply their base.

Goten and Trunks were seen in their base forms after the fusion ran off after defusing post the fight against Super Boo. Granted, they were shown as SSJs after defusing when provoking fat Boo, post the first time they fused as SSJs and were tested by Piccolo, but they fused as SSJs there... since they'd be turning SSJ ONLY after fusion, it makes sense the ingredients post fusion would take after the form they used to make the fusion.

Boo was still significantly affected by Goten and Trunks. The "Booccolo" with only Piccolo's influence was seen when the pod containing Goten and Trunks was ripped apart and he had no fingers and his antena was smaller.

Last but not least, Boo taking after the strongest fusion isn't a rule. Dai Kaioshin was weaker than South Kaioshin and yet the former influenced Boo the most after South Kaioshin absorbed him.

2. Piccolo just trains for seven years, how could Saiyans far surpass him to irrelevancy. Especially when Vegeta during the first years was probably disheartened

Vegeta also trained for 7 years, arguably harder than Piccolo did.

3. Vegeta is overconfident and is most likely calling everyone soft

Abiding to a rule in which his chances of facing Goku are at stake isn't a good thing to only act as a bravado. We also have no real reasons to assume Vegeta was just being cocky there. Contrary to popular belief, Vegeta barely acts overconfident when he has no real chances of victory and when he does, we are directly shown.

4. Piccolo is apparently Toriyama's favorite why would he do him so dirty

Err... how is that an argument? Piccolo would be irrelevant either way. Being fodder to the SSJs or being some amount below the current base Saiyajins makes no difference in the grand scheme of things.

Besides, Vegeta believes he can beat the CGs version of Piccolo... we have no way of exactly telling how he'd face off against Boo saga Piccolo.

[Mad Swami]

1. Piccolo is absolutely stronger than Goten and Trunks as SSJ as shown when Buu goes from Buutenks to Buucolo. Granted you can say this makes him stronger than the both of them in base, but I believe that Buu would pump their power as SSJ as opposed to simply their base.

Goten and Trunks were seen in their base forms after the fusion ran off after defusing post the fight against Super Boo. Granted, they were shown as SSJs after defusing when provoking fat Boo, post the first time they fused as SSJs and were tested by Piccolo, but they fused as SSJs there... since they'd be turning SSJ ONLY after fusion, it makes sense the ingredients post fusion would take after the form they used to make the fusion.

Boo was still significantly affected by Goten and Trunks. The "Booccolo" with only Piccolo's influence was seen when the pod containing Goten and Trunks was ripped apart and he had no fingers and his antena was smaller.

Last but not least, Boo taking after the strongest fusion isn't a rule. Dai Kaioshin was weaker than South Kaioshin and yet the former influenced Boo the most after South Kaioshin absorbed him.

2. Piccolo just trains for seven years, how could Saiyans far surpass him to irrelevancy. Especially when Vegeta during the first years was probably disheartened

Vegeta also trained for 7 years, arguably harder than Piccolo did.

3. Vegeta is overconfident and is most likely calling everyone soft

Abiding to a rule in which his chances of facing Goku are at stake isn't a good thing to only act as a bravado. We also have no real reasons to assume Vegeta was just being cocky there. Contrary to popular belief, Vegeta barely acts overconfident when he has no real chances of victory and when he does, we are directly shown.

4. Piccolo is apparently Toriyama's favorite why would he do him so dirty

Err... how is that an argument? Piccolo would be irrelevant either way. Being fodder to the SSJs or being some amount below the current base Saiyajins makes no difference in the grand scheme of things.

Besides, Vegeta believes he can beat the CGs version of Piccolo... we have no way of exactly telling how he'd face off against Boo saga Piccolo.

The Toriyama point is just saying why would an author who enjoys a character cripple them in such a way. Also why would you assume Piccolo would be a weak SSj1 character

The tournament wasn't that important. His overconfidence didn't need any attention.

Vegeta litterally gave up on fighting. He probably started really going harder in the later years. If anything Piccolo should be stronger than Vegeta in his SSJ1 form

My only point about Buucolo is just because Buu adopted mostly Piccolo's persona it shows he is clearly stronger than the hybrids

[Hugo Boss]

Base Vegeta is very likely above Piccolo in the Boo saga, as implied by Gohan proposing the "no SSJ" rule knowing Piccolo would participate and Vegeta bragging confidence knowing that at least #18 would be there. The only thing against it are "multipliers". But if you set aside fixed multipliers for the SSJs then having base Vegeta in the Boo saga as close to a Cell Junior becomes an easy endeavour.

This again? What stops Vegeta from using a short burst of Super Saiyan against either Piccolo or No.18? What makes you think that Vegeta will even follow Gohan’s warning?

Yes, this again. So what? Can't I bring back a subject that I found worth adding my point?

And no indication that a SSJ would be used in bursts. Vegeta was initially reluctant in fighting as a SSJ and Gohan in no time seemed to propose Vegeta to use it in small bursts in case he fought against someone bigger than what he could chew while in base. The rethoric relied entirely on them not becoming known to the others. In fact, Gohan seemed adamant of his chances against Kibito while hiding his true strength, i.e, fighting limited to his base state... the burst usability didn't come as a relief to this tension. Is there also even an indication that they can use the SSJ in quick bursts similar to the Kaioken? The only examples that come to mind are future Trunks using it to blast the androids before they could activate #16 and Goten using it to free himself from Trunks' bear hug, both of which were still used for a noticeable time, with the latter being still even noticed and commented on by the crowd.

This point was already brought up in the page before and discussed. I fail to see what else you added.. Kid Trunks did exactly what I said to beat Goten, as he had a bit more experience. Not too hard to deduce that Vegeta can do at least that.

Anyway, Vegeta has no basis to claim that he is stronger than Piccolo, No.18 or anyone else in that form, so I don’t see why this line means anything.

[Mireya]

This again? What stops Vegeta from using a short burst of Super Saiyan against either Piccolo or No.18? What makes you think that Vegeta will even follow Gohan’s warning?

Yes, this again. So what? Can't I bring back a subject that I found worth adding my point?

And no indication that a SSJ would be used in bursts. Vegeta was initially reluctant in fighting as a SSJ and Gohan in no time seemed to propose Vegeta to use it in small bursts in case he fought against someone bigger than what he could chew while in base. The rethoric relied entirely on them not becoming known to the others. In fact, Gohan seemed adamant of his chances against Kibito while hiding his true strength, i.e, fighting limited to his base state... the burst usability didn't come as a relief to this tension. Is there also even an indication that they can use the SSJ in quick bursts similar to the Kaioken? The only examples that come to mind are future Trunks using it to blast the androids before they could activate #16 and Goten using it to free himself from Trunks' bear hug, both of which were still used for a noticeable time, with the latter being still even noticed and commented on by the crowd.

This point was already brought up in the page before and discussed. I fail to see what else you added.. Kid Trunks did exactly what I said to beat Goten, as he had a bit more experience. Not too hard to deduce that Vegeta can do at least that.

Anyway, Vegeta has no basis to claim that he is stronger than Piccolo, No.18 or anyone else in that form, so I don’t see why this line means anything.

It was discussed in the last page and I made a point to add my opinion here... nothing wrong with it. If it had already been put to rest, why did you even make a case to quote me and kick forth the discussion?

Trunks didn't quickly use the SSJ in a burst either. He was with the form on until Goten touched the outside of the ring. It was slow enough for everyone to notice he was blonde.

He has basis for knowing he was stronger than Piccolo and #18 previously. He fought #18 and he very likely knew how strong Piccolo was in the CGs. So he thinks he's stronger than CGs Piccolo and #18 (defeating Vegeta). #18 likely didn't get stronger, so Vegeta remains stronger than her in base... with CURRENT Piccolo, it's more debatable.

The Toriyama point is just saying why would an author who enjoys a character cripple them in such a way. Also why would you assume Piccolo would be a weak SSj1 character

The tournament wasn't that important. His overconfidence didn't need any attention.

Vegeta litterally gave up on fighting. He probably started really going harder in the later years. If anything Piccolo should be stronger than Vegeta in his SSJ1 form

My only point about Buucolo is just because Buu adopted mostly Piccolo's persona it shows he is clearly stronger than the hybrids

Piccolo would be irrelevant wither way, whether he is weaker or stronger than base Vegeta... I personally do have Boo saga Piccolo as about as strong as base Vegeta, leaving Piccolo as twice as weak as SSJ Vegeta... which happens to be, more or less, the gap most have between SSJ Vegeta and Piccolo. I simply choose not to set aside Vegeta's comment in the spaceship because I'm not limited by set and fixed SSJ multipliers.

Why doesn't it need any attention? It's a direct declaration of superiority from him. It's a direct clue that points at Vegeta as the possessor of greater power in comparison with the previous Piccolo and #18.

Nah, Vegeta is way stronger than Piccolo as a SSJ... unless you think Piccolo is > Dabra?

I already countered this point.

[Mad Swami]

Yes, this again. So what? Can't I bring back a subject that I found worth adding my point?

And no indication that a SSJ would be used in bursts. Vegeta was initially reluctant in fighting as a SSJ and Gohan in no time seemed to propose Vegeta to use it in small bursts in case he fought against someone bigger than what he could chew while in base. The rethoric relied entirely on them not becoming known to the others. In fact, Gohan seemed adamant of his chances against Kibito while hiding his true strength, i.e, fighting limited to his base state... the burst usability didn't come as a relief to this tension. Is there also even an indication that they can use the SSJ in quick bursts similar to the Kaioken? The only examples that come to mind are future Trunks using it to blast the androids before they could activate #16 and Goten using it to free himself from Trunks' bear hug, both of which were still used for a noticeable time, with the latter being still even noticed and commented on by the crowd.

This point was already brought up in the page before and discussed. I fail to see what else you added.. Kid Trunks did exactly what I said to beat Goten, as he had a bit more experience. Not too hard to deduce that Vegeta can do at least that.

Anyway, Vegeta has no basis to claim that he is stronger than Piccolo, No.18 or anyone else in that form, so I don’t see why this line means anything.

It was discussed in the last page and I made a point to add my opinion here... nothing wrong with it. If it had already been put to rest, why did you even make a case to quote me and kick forth the discussion?

Trunks didn't quickly use the SSJ in a burst either. He was with the form on until Goten touched the outside of the ring. It was slow enough for everyone to notice he was blonde.

He has basis for knowing he was stronger than Piccolo and #18 previously. He fought #18 and he very likely knew how strong Piccolo was in the CGs. So he thinks he's stronger than CGs Piccolo and #18 (defeating Vegeta). #18 likely didn't get stronger, so Vegeta remains stronger than her in base... with CURRENT Piccolo, it's more debatable.

The Toriyama point is just saying why would an author who enjoys a character cripple them in such a way. Also why would you assume Piccolo would be a weak SSj1 character

The tournament wasn't that important. His overconfidence didn't need any attention.

Vegeta litterally gave up on fighting. He probably started really going harder in the later years. If anything Piccolo should be stronger than Vegeta in his SSJ1 form

My only point about Buucolo is just because Buu adopted mostly Piccolo's persona it shows he is clearly stronger than the hybrids

Piccolo would be irrelevant wither way, whether he is weaker or stronger than base Vegeta... I personally do have Boo saga Piccolo as about as strong as base Vegeta, leaving Piccolo as twice as weak as SSJ Vegeta... which happens to be, more or less, the gap most have between SSJ Vegeta and Piccolo. I simply choose not to set aside Vegeta's comment in the spaceship because I'm not limited by set and fixed SSJ multipliers.

Why doesn't it need any attention? It's a direct declaration of superiority from him. It's a direct clue that points at Vegeta as the possessor of greater power in comparison with the previous Piccolo and #18.

Nah, Vegeta is way stronger than Piccolo as a SSJ... unless you think Piccolo is > Dabra?

I already countered this point.

It doesn't need any attention because it's so blatantly not the case. Dabura was fighting SSJ2 Gohan no? SSJ2 Gohan is stronger than SSJ1 Vegeta.
Why would SSJ1 suddenly become weaker than Oozaru? Like hypothetically if Vegeta still had his tail, he could go Oozaru. If SSj1 goes from 50X to 2X then Oozaru is stronger. Unless that somehow changes to. What about Kaioken? If SSJ1 is X2 then Goku would just use Kaioken X20 and kill everyone. It just makes zero sense