Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Mon Jul 11, 2022 9:15 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 12:36 pm Snip
Goten and Trunks might have a good starting point but they never catch up to Gohan. They just ignored getting SSJ which was the period when Gohan trained the most.

Even now the line that Gohan's potential could make him the strongest is still a feature. So I'd put him in the top 3 with Broly and Freeza.

Didn't really thought about the Androids, just going by #17 their potential might be immense. Don't know where to put them.

U6 Saiyans, at the very least they are 10 times better than U7 Saiyans since tails are recessive like you mentioned. But we can't gauge the others since we only saw prodigies, the rest might be as trash as U7 Saiyans.

Regarding the U7 Saiyans I strongly disagree with the assessment. They shouldn't even be close to the humans who are multiple times stronger than 99% of them. Exception being Chiaotzu perhaps.

Goku and the humans spent significant amount of time in sub par conditions compared to the Saiyans. Once they got acess to them, they eclipsed them. Goku in just a few months of 10x gravity put Raditz to shame and surpassed even Nappa.

Likewise for Piccolo. Elder Guru after looking into Kuririn's memory was shocked that the prodigy was defeated by Saiyans. Of course the split was the cause, reunited Piccolo became the strongest character temporarily.

Yajirobe might have the highest potential from the humans. His starting level was crazy for a human, fair to assume he didn't do any training besides surviving in the wild. Plus in the preparation for the Saiyans he gets a pretty decent increase even tho all panels showed him lazing around.

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Gero's Calculations prove SSJ is not 50x

Post by FeatsofPower » Sun Jul 17, 2022 8:51 am

Hey everyone, as I have been working on power scaling the Androids Saga, I have stumbled across an interesting situation. I have found that we have source material proof that Super Saiyan is potentially not a 50x boost.

So Gero makes many calculations, some of which are wrong. However, Gero's uncontradicted claims should be true.

For example...

Gero claims Yamcha to be a good source of power.
Gero is able to read that Piccolo > Gohan > Humans
Gero is also able to read 19 Post Kamehameha > Sick Goku (weakened Post Kamehameha)
Gero reads 20 > SSJ Vegeta (Post Android 19 Drain)

I have always just dismissed a lot of Gero's claims and just kind of made up my own logic behind it as we usually do for this situation, but it doesn't appear to be the best way.

Gero's readings seem to only get wonky once the Super Saiyan powers goes above his own power. When the powers greatly exceed the calculated limits, it seems Gero's scouter essentially busts and gives out a false reading.

So if Gero's calculations are true, except for when they exceed his power, we have quite the interesting situation developing.

If Super Saiyan is a 50x boost and Yamcha is below the Base Saiyans, how can he be a good source of power?

Super Saiyan Goku 150
Base Goku 3
Yamcha 1

Just ballparking it.

Say Gero is a 100 on this scale, do you think Yamcha increasing Gero's power from 100 to 101 is going to be good enough to warrant the idea that Yamcha is a power worth absorbing?

No, I don't think so.

Super Saiyan Goku 150
Gero Post Yamcha 105
Gero 100
Base Goku 15
Yamcha 5

With a 10x boost, I think this is far more reasonable. Gero brings Yamcha from 100 to 105, which might be enough to warrant the claim that Yamcha is a good source of power.

Ok, but the Yamcha situation is truly not that big of a deal, so we will move on. This will all add up step by step as we go on.

Alright, so now we have to get into what does Gero expect of himself and of Vegeta?

Gero thinks that he has no chance against Vegeta, so he intends to go back to the lab. However, he sees Piccolo and the Z fighters out in the open, ripe for the taking.

Gero does some calculations and confirms to himself that if he absorbs Piccolo, Gohan, Kuririn, and Tien, he can exceed Vegeta's power. Gero says this with a ton of confidence and it's clear he will be Vegeta's superior.

Let's see how that would work for a 50x boost.

Super Saiyan Vegeta 250
Gero (Post Vegeta's Blast) 200
Base Vegeta 5
Piccolo 4
Gohan 3
Kuririn 2
Tien 1.5

This would lead to Gero (Plus Z Fighters) = 210.5, which is nowhere near Super Saiyan Vegeta's power level of 250. Gero gained 10.5 power in power level from absorbing the Z fighters, so I could make Gero (Post Vegeta's Blast) at 245 or so which would allow Gero (Post Z Fighters) to surpass Vegeta, but that would break the power chain that Gero is not in Vegeta's world prior to the absorption and that he should be a good deal superior post.

Remember, the power chain Gero provides us with is this...

Gero - Is not rivaling Vegeta, wants to run back to the lab, nothing to suggest he has any chance against Vegeta at the moment.

Gero Post Z Fighters - Does not want to run, wants to engage Vegeta and claims that Vegeta is his for the taking, this should suggest this version of Gero surpasses Vegeta.

And before you say Gero's calculations of everything is bunk, remember, Vegeta has to think about it for a little when Piccolo asks to fight Gero. Gero's power is getting to a point where absorbing any more significant energy could start to be potentially dangerous. Now Vegeta ends up allowing Piccolo to do so anyway, but the fact that he had to think about it even for a second speaks volumes and adds weight to Gero's claims. Vegeta contradicts his total claim, but it doesn't change the idea that Gero will be improving significantly, which is impossible with a 50x Super Saiyan boost.

So with a 10x boost, let's see what that looks like.


Super Saiyan Vegeta 250
Gero 200
Base Vegeta 25
Piccolo 20
Gohan 15
Kuririn 12
Tien 10

Ok, so this seems far more reasonable.

Gero (Post Z-Fighters) ends up being 257. Which allows him to actually exceed Vegeta. So mathematically we can see where Gero was going with this.

Now there's a lot to unpack here and I'll be here to answer any of the potential issues, most which are easily explainable.

I believe this is truly an interesting day, the day the source material actually numerically rejects the idea of Super Saiyan being a 50x boost.

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Re: Gero's Calculations prove SSJ is not 50x

Post by Kaboom » Sun Jul 17, 2022 10:54 am

Ah yes, Dr. Gero. The guy famous for always being correct in his power calculations. Of course!

Anyway, merging with the fan-made power levels thread...
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by FeatsofPower » Sun Jul 17, 2022 11:49 am

If you look into his scouter readings, he's actually right 9/10 times. The community has not picked up on this yet because of the over-reliance on an assumed boost as well as not digging into the details.

Gero is always right so long as the powers are below him. If you read the post thoroughly, you will see that.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sun Jul 17, 2022 11:51 am

To be fair, Gero mostly missed on everything because he thought his initial readings of the SSJs were their full powers. Once he good a good grasp he could tell 19 surpassed Goku with the Kamehameha and Vegeta had to bluff his way out of fighting because Gero knew he got weaker.

Also the stuff in the rocks is pretty straightforward. He sees Piccolo and co. and says hm, they’ll get me a lot stronger. What is there to be wrong about? He can’t be underestimating and overestimating the Z Fighters at the same time.
LightBing wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 9:15 am
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 12:36 pm Snip
Goten and Trunks might have a good starting point but they never catch up to Gohan. They just ignored getting SSJ which was the period when Gohan trained the most.

Even now the line that Gohan's potential could make him the strongest is still a feature. So I'd put him in the top 3 with Broly and Freeza.

Didn't really thought about the Androids, just going by #17 their potential might be immense. Don't know where to put them.

U6 Saiyans, at the very least they are 10 times better than U7 Saiyans since tails are recessive like you mentioned. But we can't gauge the others since we only saw prodigies, the rest might be as trash as U7 Saiyans.

Regarding the U7 Saiyans I strongly disagree with the assessment. They shouldn't even be close to the humans who are multiple times stronger than 99% of them. Exception being Chiaotzu perhaps.

Goku and the humans spent significant amount of time in sub par conditions compared to the Saiyans. Once they got acess to them, they eclipsed them. Goku in just a few months of 10x gravity put Raditz to shame and surpassed even Nappa.

Likewise for Piccolo. Elder Guru after looking into Kuririn's memory was shocked that the prodigy was defeated by Saiyans. Of course the split was the cause, reunited Piccolo became the strongest character temporarily.

Yajirobe might have the highest potential from the humans. His starting level was crazy for a human, fair to assume he didn't do any training besides surviving in the wild. Plus in the preparation for the Saiyans he gets a pretty decent increase even tho all panels showed him lazing around.
I’d hardly say being several times above classifies the humans as anywhere near U7 Saiyans. I should probably give them a bump though, specially Goku. Sure he’s on the lower end, but he clearly isn’t anomaly weak. I think he only surpassed Nappa because of his godly training though, that was just 10x gravity he was dealing with. Goku vs Vegeta has a very clear theme of hard work vs potential, I think Goku even says as much.

Piccolo trains with Goku for 3 years but still falls behind. One fusion made him more gifted than normal Saiyans, but it took another fusion for him to surpass it. And then he still falls behind any version of Super Saiyan post Android Saga. He had more power when he merged with Kami, not more potential.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by FeatsofPower » Sun Jul 17, 2022 11:57 am

Are you saying he can read their powers accurately and it's just their suppression that confuses him?

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sun Jul 17, 2022 1:13 pm

To be fair, Toriyama did say that SS felt like a 10x boost when he draw it for the first time, even though it places it way below KKx20 and would also mean a heavily suppressed Freeza easily disposed of the potential power of SS, when he fought KKx10 Goku.
And for what it's worth, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is like 10x SSG for Toyo.

This would imply a well-rested Freeza at FP would've been more than relevant in the android arc. If half his power was above KKx20 (which would be like a Namek SS2), his FP would've been stronger than the androids and Kamiccolo. Shin as well, he can oneshot Freeza, so he'd be greatly above the Cell saga characters.

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Re: Gero's Calculations prove SSJ is not 50x

Post by DanielSSJ » Sun Jul 17, 2022 3:30 pm

FeatsofPower wrote: Sun Jul 17, 2022 8:51 amNow there's a lot to unpack here and I'll be here to answer any of the potential issues, most which are easily explainable.

I believe this is truly an interesting day, the day the source material actually numerically rejects the idea of Super Saiyan being a 50x boost.
The biggest issues I have with all this is (A) that Super Saiyan can't be a 10-fold boost, because Goku could already multiply his power by ten (or even twenty) with the Kaioken, and Super Saiyan is even stronger, and (B) that, contrary to the numbers you posted, Piccolo was a lot stronger than base-form Vegeta by that point in the story.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Sun Jul 17, 2022 3:48 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Sun Jul 17, 2022 11:51 am I’d hardly say being several times above classifies the humans as anywhere near U7 Saiyans. I should probably give them a bump though, specially Goku. Sure he’s on the lower end, but he clearly isn’t anomaly weak. I think he only surpassed Nappa because of his godly training though, that was just 10x gravity he was dealing with. Goku vs Vegeta has a very clear theme of hard work vs potential, I think Goku even says as much.

Piccolo trains with Goku for 3 years but still falls behind. One fusion made him more gifted than normal Saiyans, but it took another fusion for him to surpass it. And then he still falls behind any version of Super Saiyan post Android Saga. He had more power when he merged with Kami, not more potential.
If you mean the U7 Saiyans that we know, I agree.

I mean what Godly training did Goku actually have? We see a panel of him sparing with Kaio and learning the Genki Dama. They only thing hinted by Toriyama is the Kaioken revealed later. From what I see, Goku got most of his increase from 10x gravity training basically, something Nappa did for most of his life by just existing.

The theme is more about status, criticizing Vegeta's Saiyan World view how people are determined at birth.
Sure Goku works hard but he's never an underdog in the potential sense, he's the only one who learned the Kaioken one of the most broken technique in all of Dragon Ball.
Although at the time we didn't know Vegeta works as much or harder than Goku.

Piccolo was more than 100 times weaker than Goku, he still had the biggest increase from everyone after those 3 years. I would also argue that the potential he had was realized when he become complete with Kami, so technically after the 3 years he was way above Goku.

Anyway, Saiyans have main character advantage in the form of SSJ transformations. Otherwise they aren't that much ahead of the rest of the characters.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Mireya » Sun Jul 17, 2022 5:38 pm

SSj is a 4x boost to me.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Sun Jul 17, 2022 8:01 pm

Mireya wrote: Sun Jul 17, 2022 5:38 pm SSj is a 4x boost to me.
So is Kaioken x 10 a 1.5 boost, then?
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by FeatsofPower » Sun Jul 17, 2022 9:04 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Sun Jul 17, 2022 1:13 pm To be fair, Toriyama did say that SS felt like a 10x boost when he draw it for the first time, even though it places it way below KKx20 and would also mean a heavily suppressed Freeza easily disposed of the potential power of SS, when he fought KKx10 Goku.
And for what it's worth, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is like 10x SSG for Toyo.

This would imply a well-rested Freeza at FP would've been more than relevant in the android arc. If half his power was above KKx20 (which would be like a Namek SS2), his FP would've been stronger than the androids and Kamiccolo. Shin as well, he can oneshot Freeza, so he'd be greatly above the Cell saga characters.

Well there's an explanation for that. A theory at least. The two-base theory. One is their actual true base, the other, is a base that allows them to tap into their Super Saiyan power.

Base Goku 3,000,000
KKx10 Goku 30,000,000
KKx20 Goku 60,000,000

Post Super Saiyan it's like this...

True Base Goku 3,000,000
Base Goku (Super Saiyan Essence) 15,000,000
KKx10 Goku 30,000,000

KK is based off of his true base, since the SSJ is a transformation and Base Goku is drawing power from that, he cannot use Kaioken off of that.

How do you know SSJ Blue is 10x SSJ God?
DanielSSJ wrote: Sun Jul 17, 2022 3:30 pm
FeatsofPower wrote: Sun Jul 17, 2022 8:51 amNow there's a lot to unpack here and I'll be here to answer any of the potential issues, most which are easily explainable.

I believe this is truly an interesting day, the day the source material actually numerically rejects the idea of Super Saiyan being a 50x boost.
The biggest issues I have with all this is (A) that Super Saiyan can't be a 10-fold boost, because Goku could already multiply his power by ten (or even twenty) with the Kaioken, and Super Saiyan is even stronger, and (B) that, contrary to the numbers you posted, Piccolo was a lot stronger than base-form Vegeta by that point in the story.
This is not true, only FP Piccolo is > Base Vegeta, Suppressed Piccolo is not.

Also, as mentioned above, the Saiyans use two base powers. One taps into SSJ, the other does not.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Sun Jul 17, 2022 11:17 pm

FeatsofPower wrote: Sun Jul 17, 2022 9:04 pmAlso, as mentioned above, the Saiyans use two base powers. One taps into SSJ, the other does not.
Couple things about the two-base theory.
1. There is zero evidence whatsoever that the Saiyans can access part of their Super Saiyan power without transforming, not counting a last-minute hasty animation correction from a filler episode fans like to read too much into.
2. Even if the Saiyans could do all that, that'd still mean Super Saiyan is 50x power-up. Them being able to access some of it without actually transforming doesn't change that.
3. Isn't the two base theory about whether Goku and Vegeta have godly ki in their non-godly forms or not?
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Jul 17, 2022 11:27 pm

FeatsofPower wrote: Sun Jul 17, 2022 9:04 pm How do you know SSJ Blue is 10x SSJ God?
It's more like 5 times SSG since in the tournament with Universe 6, SSG Goku was confirmed to be stronger than 10% SSB Vegeta. This is only for the incomplete SSB though. The completed version is a lot stronger.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by FeatsofPower » Sun Jul 17, 2022 11:49 pm

DanielSSJ wrote: Sun Jul 17, 2022 11:17 pm
FeatsofPower wrote: Sun Jul 17, 2022 9:04 pmAlso, as mentioned above, the Saiyans use two base powers. One taps into SSJ, the other does not.
Couple things about the two-base theory.
1. There is zero evidence whatsoever that the Saiyans can access part of their Super Saiyan power without transforming, not counting a last-minute hasty animation correction from a filler episode fans like to read too much into.
2. Even if the Saiyans could do all that, that'd still mean Super Saiyan is 50x power-up. Them being able to access some of it without actually transforming doesn't change that.
3. Isn't the two base theory about whether Goku and Vegeta have godly ki in their non-godly forms or not?
1. Vegeta seems to tap into Super Saiyan Essence while fighting Broly. He has a yellow lining around his body but his hair is still black, he seems to power up mightily while still not transforming fully into a Super Saiyan.

2. Yes, indeed, Super Saiyan is still a 50x power-up with this theory, while still allowing Base to be as strong as suggested. It's the perfect balance/explanation how to make all things work.

3. Yes, but that two base theory doesn't really seem to have much merit from what I've seen. There doesn't seem to be much evidence that Base Goku isn't God tier from what I've seen.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Mon Jul 18, 2022 12:18 am

FeatsofPower wrote: Sun Jul 17, 2022 11:49 pmVegeta seems to tap into Super Saiyan Essence while fighting Broly. He has a yellow lining around his body but his hair is still black, he seems to power up mightily while still not transforming fully into a Super Saiyan.
You're free to interpret it however you like, but I seriously doubt the yellowish aura was meant to indicate that Vegeta was partially accessing his Super Saiyan power, or be anything other than a visual liberty the animators happened to take. I mean, you don't think the second Vegeta spent with green hair right before going Super Saiyan is meant to imply that he almost went Legendary Super Saiyan, do you?
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon Jul 18, 2022 8:46 am

Vegeta actually overwhelmed Broly when he got that yellow aura. Unlike that green hair thing I think the purpose is clear here.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Mon Jul 18, 2022 1:58 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Mon Jul 18, 2022 8:46 am Vegeta actually overwhelmed Broly when he got that yellow aura. Unlike that green hair thing I think the purpose is clear here.
I would guess that it was just a creative way of showing Vegeta powering up or something. If memory serves, Gogeta had a similar looking aura when they first fused. I certainly don't think it was something Toriyama specified happened in the script.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by FeatsofPower » Mon Jul 18, 2022 2:22 pm

DanielSSJ wrote: Mon Jul 18, 2022 1:58 pm
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Mon Jul 18, 2022 8:46 am Vegeta actually overwhelmed Broly when he got that yellow aura. Unlike that green hair thing I think the purpose is clear here.
I would guess that it was just a creative way of showing Vegeta powering up or something. If memory serves, Gogeta had a similar looking aura when they first fused. I certainly don't think it was something Toriyama specified happened in the script.
Trunks did it against Freeza.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Mon Jul 18, 2022 3:54 pm

FeatsofPower wrote: Mon Jul 18, 2022 2:22 pmTrunks did it against Freeza.
Trunks went straight to Super Saiyan against Freeza. Unless you're referring to the brief second or two in the anime's transformation sequence where his hair was spiked up but hadn't shifted to yellow (and I think I've made myself clear that I don't really consider creative artistic liberties the animators take to be evidence of authorial intent), I have no idea what you're talking about.
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