Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by SoulSurj » Tue May 10, 2022 2:32 am

ZombieVito wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 12:57 am I always felt that SSG being a 1,000 multiplier from base was good and it makes SSB a 50,000 multiplier, which is also a good number.
It wouldn't be 50,000 because Ssb isn't 50× Ssg, since 10% of blue is weaker than Ssg. If the distance between the two forms were 50× then blue would have to be at 1% to be weaker than Ssg. The distance is more like 5×. Plus, base form fusion is still stronger than both Ssg and blue so their multipliers can't be over the single digit thousands.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Tue May 10, 2022 9:47 am

SoulSurj wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 2:32 amIt wouldn't be 50,000 because Ssb isn't 50× Ssg, since 10% of blue is weaker than Ssg. If the distance between the two forms were 50× then blue would have to be at 1% to be weaker than Ssg. The distance is more like 5×. Plus, base form fusion is still stronger than both Ssg and blue so their multipliers can't be over the single digit thousands.
Iirc that particular detail is only in the manga. Probably doesn't apply to the animated version.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by SoulSurj » Tue May 10, 2022 10:18 am

DanielSSJ wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 9:47 am Iirc that particular detail is only in the manga. Probably doesn't apply to the animated version.
The multipliers are the same in the anime, manga, and movies. You're thinking of the stamina drain that drops their power below 10%. Even though blue drains stamina in the anime it's never stated how much so the specifics behind the stamina drain are manga only, as far as we know.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue May 10, 2022 11:51 am

SoulSurj wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 2:32 am
ZombieVito wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 12:57 am I always felt that SSG being a 1,000 multiplier from base was good and it makes SSB a 50,000 multiplier, which is also a good number.
It wouldn't be 50,000 because Ssb isn't 50× Ssg, since 10% of blue is weaker than Ssg. If the distance between the two forms were 50× then blue would have to be at 1% to be weaker than Ssg. The distance is more like 5×. Plus, base form fusion is still stronger than both Ssg and blue so their multipliers can't be over the single digit thousands.
Manga only and Completed Blue pretty much makes it the same as the anime anyway.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Tue May 10, 2022 1:04 pm

SoulSurj wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 10:18 am
DanielSSJ wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 9:47 am Iirc that particular detail is only in the manga. Probably doesn't apply to the animated version.
The multipliers are the same in the anime, manga, and movies. You're thinking of the stamina drain that drops their power below 10%. Even though blue drains stamina in the anime it's never stated how much so the specifics behind the stamina drain are manga only, as far as we know.
That may hold true for the original run, but the manga and Anime versions of Super are pretty dang different from each other. If whole characters can be stronger or weaker depending on which version of the story your looking at, the same could easily hold true for the forms, especially considering none of the forms in DBS actually have official multipliers.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by SoulSurj » Tue May 10, 2022 1:46 pm

DanielSSJ wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 1:04 pm That may hold true for the original run, but the manga and Anime versions of Super are pretty dang different from each other. If whole characters can be stronger or weaker depending on which version of the story your looking at, the same could easily hold true for the forms, especially considering none of the forms in DBS actually have official multipliers.

There'd have to be a reason why the multipliers are different between the anime and manga for that to be the case. There's just no evidence of that and the Broly movie just combined the two's scaling with no regard for the differences, so there's no reason to assume the anime made the forms stronger. If anything, the manga would've been the one with the stronger version of Ssb because Goku and Vegeta perfected it but that's not really the case because perfected Ssb is just Ssb at full power.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue May 10, 2022 1:46 pm

SoulSurj wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 2:32 am
ZombieVito wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 12:57 am I always felt that SSG being a 1,000 multiplier from base was good and it makes SSB a 50,000 multiplier, which is also a good number.
It wouldn't be 50,000 because Ssb isn't 50× Ssg, since 10% of blue is weaker than Ssg. If the distance between the two forms were 50× then blue would have to be at 1% to be weaker than Ssg. The distance is more like 5×. Plus, base form fusion is still stronger than both Ssg and blue so their multipliers can't be over the single digit thousands.
That’s only before they perfected Super Saiyan Blue though. Afterwards it probably becomes 50x, and since PSSJB was never a thing in the anime it probably was 50x the entire time.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by SoulSurj » Tue May 10, 2022 3:16 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 1:46 pm That’s only before they perfected Super Saiyan Blue though. Afterwards it probably becomes 50x, and since PSSJB was never a thing in the anime it probably was 50x the entire time.
Perfected Ssb is just Ssb at full power. The multiplier doesn't change, the form just stays at full power like Ss 3 would if Goku was dead. Regardless... god and blue are weaker than base form fusion so, unless base Vegito and base Gogeta have always been at least 20,000× stronger than Ss 3 Goku, blue can't be 50× Ssg.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue May 10, 2022 3:42 pm

SoulSurj wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 3:16 pm
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 1:46 pm That’s only before they perfected Super Saiyan Blue though. Afterwards it probably becomes 50x, and since PSSJB was never a thing in the anime it probably was 50x the entire time.
Perfected Ssb is just Ssb at full power. The multiplier doesn't change, the form just stays at full power like Ss 3 would if Goku was dead. Regardless... god and blue are weaker than base form fusion so, unless base Vegito and base Gogeta have always been at least 20,000× stronger than Ss 3 Goku, blue can't be 50× Ssg.
I agree PSSB doesn't provide a bigger multiplier, it's just 100% SSB, not a new form, and nothing suggests there was a change in the power it provides. In any case, it's SSBE the one that provides a bigger boost, but I'd say it's 20x(like in the anime), not 50x.

Fusion multiplier depends on the fusee's strongest forms. So in Z, Vegito was as strong as SS3 Goku(if it's the strongest form available for any of the fusees) or SS2 (if it depends on the strongest form BOTH of the fusees have), and in DBS, Vegito is as strong as SSB because that's the strongest form both of the fusees have. This of course, is fandom headcanon based on what was seen, how fusion actually works was never addressed by the author.

The numbers won't ever add up completely because Dragonball was written by an artist and not by a mathematician.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue May 10, 2022 3:46 pm

SoulSurj wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 3:16 pm Perfected Ssb is just Ssb at full power. The multiplier doesn't change, the form just stays at full power like Ss 3 would if Goku was dead. Regardless... god and blue are weaker than base form fusion so, unless base Vegito and base Gogeta have always been at least 20,000× stronger than Ss 3 Goku, blue can't be 50× Ssg.
No. It does change.

Fused Zamasu is confirmed in official material to have had a big fusion boost so Perfected Blue has to have a bigger multiplier than normal Blue. Otherwise Fused Zamasu wouldn't have beaten SSB Vegeta that easily the instant the latter attacked him at the beginning of chapter 23.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by SoulSurj » Tue May 10, 2022 4:05 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 3:42 pm Fusion multiplier depends on the fusee's strongest forms. So in Z, Vegito was as strong as SS3 Goku(if it's the strongest form available for any of the fusees) or SS2 (if it depends on the strongest form BOTH of the fusees have), and in DBS, Vegito is as strong as SSB because that's the strongest form both of the fusees have. This of course, is fandom headcanon based on what was seen, how fusion actually works was never addressed by the author.
Nah, fusion is a set number for the same characters. Otherwise, Gogeta's base form would've been above MUI Goku's level.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue May 10, 2022 4:25 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 3:42 pm I agree PSSB doesn't provide a bigger multiplier, it's just 100% SSB, not a new form, and nothing suggests there was a change in the power it provides. In any case, it's SSBE the one that provides a bigger boost, but I'd say it's 20x(like in the anime), not 50x.

Fusion multiplier depends on the fusee's strongest forms. So in Z, Vegito was as strong as SS3 Goku(if it's the strongest form available for any of the fusees) or SS2 (if it depends on the strongest form BOTH of the fusees have), and in DBS, Vegito is as strong as SSB because that's the strongest form both of the fusees have. This of course, is fandom headcanon based on what was seen, how fusion actually works was never addressed by the author.

The numbers won't ever add up completely because Dragonball was written by an artist and not by a mathematician.
SoulSurj wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 3:16 pm Perfected Ssb is just Ssb at full power. The multiplier doesn't change, the form just stays at full power like Ss 3 would if Goku was dead. Regardless... god and blue are weaker than base form fusion so, unless base Vegito and base Gogeta have always been at least 20,000× stronger than Ss 3 Goku, blue can't be 50× Ssg.
Sort of, but SSJB’s full power can’t be used if the form isn’t perfected. Vegeta’s bursts clearly weren’t doing anything to Merged Zamasu, and he was admittedly weaker than PSSJB Goku. Beerus noted his power skyrocketed in their sparring match when Vegeta went from normal to complete SSJB too.

SoulSurj wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 4:05 pm Nah, fusion is a set number for the same characters. Otherwise, Gogeta's base form would've been above MUI Goku's level.
It is a set numbers… on top of the strongest forms. Otherwise Goku wouldn’t have thought fusion wasn’t enough to fight Beerus in BoGs.

Goku can’t use UI at will, so that power is probably not considered when it doesn’t really exist.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue May 10, 2022 4:29 pm

SoulSurj wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 4:05 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 3:42 pm Fusion multiplier depends on the fusee's strongest forms. So in Z, Vegito was as strong as SS3 Goku(if it's the strongest form available for any of the fusees) or SS2 (if it depends on the strongest form BOTH of the fusees have), and in DBS, Vegito is as strong as SSB because that's the strongest form both of the fusees have. This of course, is fandom headcanon based on what was seen, how fusion actually works was never addressed by the author.
Nah, fusion is a set number for the same characters. Otherwise, Gogeta's base form would've been above MUI Goku's level.
By now, yes, he would be as strong as UE or UI in base*. For the Broly movie, no. Goku didn't have that form at his disposal.

*Again, it depends on whether it's the strongest form any of the fusees have or the strongest one that they share. So, Gogeta could be only SSB tier in base, regardless of the unique forms of Goku and Vegeta; or as strong as UI or UE.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by SoulSurj » Tue May 10, 2022 5:21 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 4:25 pm Sort of, but SSJB’s full power can’t be used if the form isn’t perfected. Vegeta’s bursts clearly weren’t doing anything to Merged Zamasu, and he was admittedly weaker than PSSJB Goku. Beerus noted his power skyrocketed in their sparring match when Vegeta went from normal to complete SSJB too.

It is a set numbers… on top of the strongest forms. Otherwise Goku wouldn’t have thought fusion wasn’t enough to fight Beerus in BoGs.

Goku can’t use UI at will, so that power is probably not considered when it doesn’t really exist.
Vegeta says that perfected blue is just blue running at 100% constantly as opposed to only being that strong for a short time before draining stamina and energy. They don't get far stronger, it just seems like they do because blue makes them that much weaker over time.

Fusion is a set multiplier that just happens to be stronger than Ss 3, god, and blue. It's not stronger than their strongest forms, it's just strong enough to be above 3, god, and blue. It's not above MUI because the form is too strong for the base form fusion multiplier to reach, which is why people compare MUI Goku to Blue Gogeta and not Base Gogeta.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by SoulSurj » Tue May 10, 2022 5:29 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 3:42 pm By now, yes, he would be as strong as UE or UI in base*. For the Broly movie, no. Goku didn't have that form at his disposal.

*Again, it depends on whether it's the strongest form any of the fusees have or the strongest one that they share. So, Gogeta could be only SSB tier in base, regardless of the unique forms of Goku and Vegeta; or as strong as UI or UE.
Vegito was stronger than Ss 3 Goku despite Vegeta not having Ss 3 at all so why would Goku not being able to turn MUI make a difference? Also... Goku did have MUI in the Broly movie, we see it briefly, he just didn't know how to turn into it at will. The same was said about Ss when Trunks first talked to Goku. Goku had Ss but could only turn into it randomly at first.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GatoF » Thu May 12, 2022 10:28 pm

If Current Dbs Krillin becomes Ultimate Krillin how strong do you think he would be?

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Fri May 13, 2022 6:43 pm

GatoF wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 10:28 pm If Current Dbs Krillin becomes Ultimate Krillin how strong do you think he would be?
Hm… Hard to tell because Ultimate is a potential unlock, and these are sort of unpredictable. Humans have less potential than Saiyans, but since Saiyans have endless potential it’s hard to establish a ceiling for Kuririn.

So the easiest route is to take whatever boost Gohan got and use it as a multiplier to Ultimate Kuririn. I have DBS Kuririn somewhat below Boo Saga Base Saiyans, but since Ultimate is >> SSJ3 then Ultimate Kuririn would be above Kid Boo. I dare to say he’s between Kid Boo and Super Boo, at SSJ2 Gotenks level probably.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sun May 15, 2022 12:29 pm

GatoF wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 10:28 pm If Current Dbs Krillin becomes Ultimate Krillin how strong do you think he would be?
Wasn't that Namek Krilin? Saichoro unlocked his potential already and he wasn't that relevant to begin with. I always assumed Krilin was already doing the best with his potential in Z, when he was training.

But if it were to happen again, like a booster shot, he'd be still irrelevant. Going absolutely crazy, he'd be above the base saiyans (bar Goku and Vegeta who after the last 2 arcs have nobody on their rearview mirrors), the kids would need SS to beat him, maybe on par with Buu arc Piccolo.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Wed May 18, 2022 10:27 pm

Ignoring the fact that Heroes tries to push SSJ4 and Blue as equals... How would you guys think Super Saiyan God stands if was put to compare with battle powers in GT?

Part of me thinks God > SSJ4 Gogeta, but probably is not that high.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Draconic » Thu May 19, 2022 1:03 am

I'd say that the God forms are stronger than Super Saiyan 4 and it's fusions, but the GT characters are much stronger in base form than Super characters that they'd be able to match the God forms. In this case, SSJ4 Gogeta would be competitive in Super at least until the ToP.

I have my multipliers as such:
Base - 1
Great Ape - 10
SSJ - 50
SSJ2 - 100
SSJ3 - 400
SSJ4 - 500 (Great Ape x Super Saiyan)
SSG - 600
SSB - 1200

As you can see, a base Saiyan with a base of 2 would be competitive with a Blue in SSJ4 and above a God, even though God is above 4 as a transformation. And this isn't taking into account things like techniques, combat experience or rage boosts.
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