Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Mireya » Mon Feb 15, 2021 11:43 pm

Yosheets wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:28 am I think I already posted my old battle power list on my deactivated account, but anyway...



Saiyajin Transformations:

Oozaru: x10 Base
Super Saiyajin: x50 Base
Ultra Super Saiyajin: x2 Super Saiyajin
Ultra Super Saiyajin 2: x5 Ultra Super Saiyajin
Super Saiyajin 2: x10 Super Saiyajin

Ki Amplification:

Kamehameha: x1.25
Makankosappo: x1.8
Makankosappo (no charge time): x1.25
Scattering Bullet: x1.2
Kikoho: x1.5
Kienzan: x1.75
Masenko: x1.33
Gyarikku Hou: x1.67
Final Crash: x1.4
Gekiretsu Kodan: x3.33
Hell's Flash: x1
Shin Kikoho: x1,000
Final Flash: x5
Super Kamehameha: x6.67


Saiyajin Arc:


Goku:
Initial: 739
Kamehameha: 924
Post Training Initial: 5,000
Post Training Full Power: 8,000
Kaioken x2: 16,000
Kaioken x3: 24,000
Kaioken x3 Kamehameha: 30,000
Kaioken x4: 32,000
Kaioken x4 Kamehameha: 40,000

Gohan:
Initial: 1
Post Training: 1,500
Rage Boost: 2,100
Masenko: 2,800

Piccolo:
Initial: 739
Makankosappo: 1,330
Post Training: 2,000
Makankosappo: 2,500

Krillin:
Initial: 206
Post Training: 1,400
Scattering Bullet: 1,680
Kienzan: 2,450

Tenshinhan:
Initial: 250
Post Training: 1,600
Kikoho: 2,400

Yamcha:
Initial: 177
Post Training: 1,300

Chaozu:
Initial: 155
Post Training: 1,100

Yajirobe:
Initial: 150
Post Training: 1,000

Master Roshi:
Initial: 111
Full Power: 139

Saibamen: 1,200

Raditz: 1,250

Nappa:
Initial: 3,000
Full Power: 7,500

Vegeta:
Initial: 14,000
Full Power: 18,000
Gyarikku Hou: 30,000
Oozaru: 180,000


Freeza Arc:


Goku:
Initial: 8,000
Post Training Initial: 5,000
Post Training Suppressed: 60,000
Post Training Full Power: 90,000
Kaioken x2: 180,000
Post Zenkai: 3,000,000
Kaioken x20: 60,000,000
Kamehameha: 75,000,000
Legendary Super Saiyajin: 150,000,000

Gohan:
Initial: 1,500
Post Guru Power Up Namek Saga: 14,000
Post Guru Power Up Ginyu Saga: 28,000
Post Guru Power Up Freeza Saga: 450,000
Rage Boost: 900,000

Piccolo:
Initial: 2,000
Post Training: 350,000
Post Nail Fusion Initial: 1,300,000
Post Nail Fusion Full Power: 1,500,000

Krillin:
Initial: 1,400
Post Guru Power Up Namek Saga: 13,000
Post Guru Power Up Ginyu Saga: 26,000
Post Guru Power Up Freeza Saga: 400,000
Kienzan: 700,000

Tenshinhan:
Initial: 1,600
Post Training: 300,000

Yamcha:
Initial: 1,300
Post Training: 250,000

Chaozu:
Initial: 1,100
Post Training: 5,000

Nail: 42,000

Cui: 18,000

Dodoria: 20,000

Zarbon:
Suppressed Form: 22,000
True Form: 28,000

Gurudo: 10,000

Reacoom: 40,000

Buhteh: 40,000

Jheese: 40,000

Ginyu:
Initial: 70,000
Full Power: 120,000

Vegeta:
Initial: 24,000
Post Namek Saga Zenkai: 30,000
Final Crash: 42,000
Post Ginyu Saga Zenkai: 500,000
Post Freeza Saga Zenkai: 2,500,000

Freeza:
3rd Suppression Form Initial: 251,500
3rd Suppression Form Full Power: 530,000
2nd Suppression Form Initial: 1,060,000
2nd Suppression Form Powered Up: 1,200,000
2nd Suppression Form Full Power: 1,400,000
3rd Suppression Form: 2,000,000
True Form Initial: 3,000,000
True Form 50%: 60,000,000
True Form 70%: 84,000,000
True Form 100%: 120,000,000


Androids Arc:


Goku:
Initial: 6,000,000
Super Saiyajin: 300,000,000
Post Training Base: 19,500,000
Post Training Super Saiyajin: 975,000,000

Gohan:
Initial: 450,000
Post Training: 17,500,000

Vegeta:
Initial: 2,500,000
Post Training Base: 20,000,000
Post Training Super Saiyajin: 1,000,000,000

Future Trunks:
Initial: 5,400,000
Super Saiyajin: 270,000,000
Post Training Base: 19,000,000
Post Training Super Saiyajin: 950,000,000

Piccolo:
Initial: 1,500,000
Post Training: 900,000,000

Krillin:
Initial: 400,000
Post Training: 15,000,000

Yamcha:
Initial: 250,000
Post Training: 10,000,000

Tenshinhan:
Initial: 300,000
Post Training: 12,500,000

King Cold: 100,000,000

Mecha Freeza:
Initial: 90,000,000
Full Power: 180,000,000

Android #19:
Initial: 400,000,000
Post Absorbtions: 600,000,000

Cyborg #20:
Initial: 450,000,000
Post Absorbtions: 675,000,000

Cyborg #18: 1,400,000,000

Cyborg #17: 1,500,000,000

Android #16: 10,000,000,000



Cell Arc:



Gohan:
Initial: 15,000,000
Post ROSAT Base: 15,000,000,000
Post ROSAT Super Saiyajin: 750,000,000,000
Post ROSAT Super Saiyajin 2: 7,500,000,000,000
Super Kamehameha: 50,000,000,000,000

Goku:
Base: 19,500,000
Super Saiyajin: 975,000,000
Post ROSAT Base: 10,000,000,000
Post ROSAT Super Saiyajin: 500,000,000,000

Vegeta:
Base: 20,000,000
Super Saiyajin: 1,000,000,000
Post First ROSAT Base: 500,000,000
Post First ROSAT Super Saiyajin: 25,000,000,000
Post First ROSAT Ultra Super Saiyajin: 50,000,000,000
Final Flash: 250,000,000,000
Post Second ROSAT Base: 7,500,000,000
Post Second ROSAT Super Saiyajin: 375,000,000,000

Future Trunks:
Base: 19,000,000
Super Saiyajin: 950,000,000
Post First ROSAT Base: 450,000,000
Post First ROSAT Super Saiyan: 22,500,000,000
Post First ROSAT Ultra Super Saiyajin: 45,000,000,000
Post First ROSAT Ultra Super Saiyajin 2: 225,000,000,000
Post Second ROSAT Base: 7,000,000,000
Post Second ROSAT Super Saiyajin: 350,000,000,000

Piccolo:
Initial: 900,000,000
Post God Fusion: 1,500,000,000
Gekiretsu Kodan: 5,000,000,000
Post ROSAT: 300,000,000,000

Tenshinhan:
Initial: 12,500,000
Shin Kikoho: 12,500,000,000

Android #16:
Initial: 10,000,000,000
Hell's Flash: 10,000,000,000

Cell Juniors: 400,000,000,000

Cell:
Imperfect Initial: 1,200,000,000
Imperfect Post Absorbtions: 10,000,000,000
Semi Perfect Initial: 25,000,000,000
Full Power Semi Perfect: 30,000,000,000
Perfect Initial: 45,000,000,000
Perfect Warming Up: 175,000,000,000
Perfect Buffed Up: 250,000,000,000
Perfect Getting Serious: 625,000,000,000
Full Power Perfect: 3,750,000,000,000
Buff Beyond Limits Perfect: 6,250,000,000,000
Super Perfect: 7,000,000,000,000
Super Kamehameha: 46,666,666,666,667
Wow, you sure have Goku and the others undergoing quite a power up in those 3 years separating Freeza's killing and the androids' arrival.

Why'd you give a 10x boost for SSJ2? Not that's wrong, but seems a little excessive to me.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by In Brightest Day » Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:54 pm

What’s the consensus on how strong the main cast could get with just regular Earth training? No fusions, no training under or having your power unlocked by Gods/Namekians, or going into a room where you can do an entire years worth of training in a single day, etc?

Say, if the events of the series never happened and the central characters (Son Goku, Piccolo, Son Gohan, Krillin, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Master Roshi) just got to live a peaceful life while quietly training on Earth, starting from the beginning of Z, to the 28th Budokai time period?

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Feb 16, 2021 11:36 pm

In Brightest Day wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:54 pm What’s the consensus on how strong the main cast could get with just regular Earth training? No fusions, no training under or having your power unlocked by Gods/Namekians, or going into a room where you can do an entire years worth of training in a single day, etc?

Say, if the events of the series never happened and the central characters (Son Goku, Piccolo, Son Gohan, Krillin, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Master Roshi) just got to live a peaceful life while quietly training on Earth, starting from the beginning of Z, to the 28th Budokai time period?
Goku'd still compete with Piccolo, friend or foe, they would make each other reach new heights. Z started with Goku currently not that busy with training, if he gets down to business (and/or has another fight-to-the-death with Piccolo), his PL should be closing in on 1,000 PL. Goku exploiting his zenkai power(whether he is aware of it, or not) against similar power level as his, should at least put him eventually in the Nappa realm, seeing how zenkais can even more than double the power, with pre-Kaiosama-trained Goku they should at least give him a decent amount of growth.
But training under low gravity should make his gains slower, I guess, making him sort of a saiyan underachiever. At best, I think Goku would break into the 10,000 PL cathegory and plateau there, Vegeta was elite, older and had undergone a more fierce training regime since birth and still hadn't even reached the 20,000 PL.

Piccolo should follow suit, but without the zenkai ability, probably ending a little stronger than Nappa.
Tenshinhan and the rest would've plateaued a long time ago, I doubt they would ever become as strong as they were in the saiyan arc. Maybe they'd reach 1,000 PL, IDK.

This was an interesting idea, love to hear your take on it.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Thu Feb 18, 2021 5:22 pm

In Brightest Day wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:54 pm What’s the consensus on how strong the main cast could get with just regular Earth training? No fusions, no training under or having your power unlocked by Gods/Namekians, or going into a room where you can do an entire years worth of training in a single day, etc?

Say, if the events of the series never happened and the central characters (Son Goku, Piccolo, Son Gohan, Krillin, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Master Roshi) just got to live a peaceful life while quietly training on Earth, starting from the beginning of Z, to the 28th Budokai time period?
If we're cutting the haxed training I think this also means no Saiyans, Freeza, Cell or Boo otherwise they'd logically be dead. This is a huge difference because some people wouldn't train as seriously.

The humans would probably never get invited to train with Kami, so they would be stuck in the under 400 line. Even if they did, Kuririn thought he was at his limit before having his power drawn out by Guru, so they would all top close to 2,000.

I think Goku could shoot up greatly. You didn't rule the gravity chambers out, after all... But as his rivalry with Piccolo turns into friendship, the curve would flatten; the gains would get smaller... There are two limits that represent what power Goku would reach: Saiyan limits (Possibly the 60k Ginyu estimates him to hit), or his own "limits" (He thought 90k was his limit before his huge zenkai to fight Freeza). I'm going to lean towards the former since he doesn't train with Kaio, and Piccolo should be lagging slightly behind.

No matter how much Chi-Chi wants Gohan to be a scholar I don't think he would avoid Goku teaching him the basics. Would probably be stronger than the humans, maybe around Nappa's level? His anger takes him to unknown highs though.

And of course, Roshi is as strong as he wants to be. 8)

Numbers:

Goku: 60,000
Piccolo: 56,250

Gohan: 3,500
~ Angry: ?

Tenshinhan (High): 2,250
Kuririn (High): 1,800
Yamcha (High): 1,500
Chaozu (High): 750

Tenshinhan (Low): 300
Kuririn (Low): 240
Yamcha (Low): 200
Chaozu (Low): 180

Master Roshi: 8)
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Yosheets » Tue Mar 02, 2021 10:07 pm

Mireya wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 11:43 pm Why'd you give a 10x boost for SSJ2? Not that's wrong, but seems a little excessive to me.
Because it's equal to the boost Ultra Super Saiyan is stacked with Ultra Super Saiyan 2. Also, Perfect Cell's power up to full power was implied to be huge as well.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Desassina » Sun Mar 07, 2021 6:24 am

It's been a long time since I last contributed to this thread. I would like to throw some battle power increases around, but I don't know where to start. Perhaps I should attempt Dragon Ball Super starting from the Cell arc.
Super Saiyan = 1, some arbitrary unit.

Grade 2 SS = 1.25, a quarter more than the unit.
Grade 3 SS = 1.5625, a quarter squared over the unit.

Super Saiyan 2 = 2.5, two and a half more than the unit.
Super Saiyan 3 = 6.25, two and a half squared over the unit.

Super Saiyan God = 10, ten times more than the unit.
Super Saiyan Blue = 100, ten times squared over the unit.

Ultra Instincts = 1'000, a thousand times more than the unit.
Here's my reasoning: forms of a different color represent 10 fold increases, while mutations in the same one are less than that, which includes Vegeta's ascension past complete SSB in the manga. I don't know if I can keep squaring ascensions relative to one another, but it was a nice exercise for the grades and numbered forms, because they halted right under 10. Note that I considered Super Saiyan to be 1, which means that you can trade it for 50, and calculate everything from there.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Mar 07, 2021 11:06 am

Desassina wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 6:24 am Here's my reasoning: forms of a different color represent 10 fold increases, while mutations in the same one are less than that.
I like this theory as well, but instead of 10-fold, I think 50-fold feels more like a huge upgrade. Like original Super Saiyan was before and like how Goku describes his evolution to SSGod in the Dragon Ball Super manga. Conveniently, I think it works better with the “Super Exciting Guide” Super Saiyan multipliers.
  • Super Saiyan God - 50x Super Saiyan
  • Super Saiyan Blue - 50x Super Saiyan God
  • Super Saiyan Blue Evolution - 2x Super Saiyan Blue

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Desassina » Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:50 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 11:06 am
Desassina wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 6:24 am Here's my reasoning: forms of a different color represent 10 fold increases, while mutations in the same one are less than that.
I like this theory as well, but instead of 10-fold, I think 50-fold feels more like a huge upgrade. Like original Super Saiyan was before and like how Goku describes his evolution to SSGod in the Dragon Ball Super manga. Conveniently, I think it works better with the “Super Exciting Guide” Super Saiyan multipliers.
  • Super Saiyan God - 50x Super Saiyan
  • Super Saiyan Blue - 50x Super Saiyan God
  • Super Saiyan Blue Evolution - 2x Super Saiyan Blue
I appreciate the comment and follow your idea, but I find that hard to work with, because SSB was these characters' SSG before the latter came back, which means that the former had its power in the form of Super Saiyan, and is another way of saying that Blue and God were equals before their differences began to show. Since stamina issues made Vegeta perform with less than 10% in Blue, and he was weaker than Goku with God in the U6T, I prefer to match them like this (even with the anime):
Movie <=> Anime <=> Manga

Super Saiyan <=> Super Saiyan <=> SS/SSB (1%)
SS God <=> SS God/Blue <=> SSG/SSB (10%)
SSB <=> Blue at FP/KKx10 <=> SSB (100%)
... <=> Blue Evo/KKx20 <=> SSB (200%)
This is why I believe that a 10 fold increase after Super Saiyan/God allows Blue to decrease to less than 10% different than if it had been 50 times more. The latter could still work with Vegeta operating at 1% although you would have to ask why drop him so much. I placed emphasis on SS God and Blue at FP to show that Goku can use the switching tactic as an alternative to Kaioken and Blue at 200% is Vegeta's ascension in the manga.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Kaboom » Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:22 am

Just a minor note, I finally got around to incorporating my new "Fusions with super-duper-strong base forms and teeny-weeny Super Saiyan boosts" method into my actual main series and movies lists. Both viewable through the links in my signature, as always.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:49 pm

Folks who have Freeza (And maybe even King Cold) > Piccolo and the Initial Androids, what are your numbers? I can't seem to make sense of the Androids absorbing this much energy and still being multiple times below SSJ level. #19 even gave Vegeta a bloody lip!
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Kaboom » Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:29 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:49 pmFolks who have Freeza (And maybe even King Cold) > Piccolo and the Initial Androids, what are your numbers? I can't seem to make sense of the Androids absorbing this much energy and still being multiple times below SSJ level. #19 even gave Vegeta a bloody lip!
Well, I don't have Androids-debut Piccolo still below Freeza, but I do have initial 19 and 20 below him. I don't currently bother having top post-absorption numbers for the Androids, but I still left plenty of "room" for them to get substantially stronger but still be outclassed by Piccolo and the Super Saiyans. These are my current numbers for all of the above:


Taking a quick glance at the good ol' Strength Checker, there's no dialogue squarely indicating exactly how much stronger 19 and 20 got from absorbing energy, in any proportionate sense, or even which of the two boosted themselves higher in the end. Nor is there anything saying that they were still "multiple times" weaker than the Super Saiyans. They could very well be close-ish but still firmly outstripped by the heroes.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:46 pm

Messing around a little bit. How about "what if battle powers were introduced at the beginning of the story and didn't need large leaps to be overwhelming?" Let's assume that 1.3x stronger is enough to overwhelm an enemy, like Vegeta (24,000) did to Kewi (18,000)!

The Hunt for the Dragon Balls:

Average Human: 5
Son Gokuu (6.5): Enough to overwhelm a normal human!
Yamcha (6.4): A little weaker than Gokuu, but he makes up for it with his wits!
Muten Roushi (10): An arbitrary and round number.

Twenty-First Tenka'ichi Budoukai:

Son Gokuu (9): Had the Muten Roushi not been exhausted by the Oozaru incident I think we would have seen a more decisive decision in his favor.
Kuririn (8): Decisively below Gokuu by a notch but still impressive compared to the old Gokuu.
Yamcha (8): he's probably on the same level as Kuririn, you think?
Muten Roushi (10): I don't think he did any training for this tournament?

Red Ribbon Army:

Son Gokuu (10): I'm betting that by the time Gokuu had fought his way through to Tao Pai-Pai his power had grown exponentially.
Tao Pai-Pai (13): Damn, he nearly killed Gokuu!
Son Gokuu (16.9): Damn, he nearly killed Tao Pai-Pai!
Mira-kun (13):
Akkuman (14):
Son Gohan (22.1):

Twenty-Second Tenka'ichi Budoukai:

Son Gokuu (26): For the heck of it, we'll say Gokuu is now above Grandpa Gohan by a little bit.
Kuririn (20): At least above Gokuu's power from three years ago.
Tenshinhan (25.9): Maybe a hair less than Gokuu but makes up for it with technique and experience.
Muten Roushi (22): Technically, we didn't see his full power! This is just an idea of where he was hiding back, in my view.

Piccolo Daimaou no Fukkatsu:

Tambourine (25): I assume Gokuu could have eeked out a win if he had been at full health.
Cymbal (32.5): Built to be stronger than Tambourine.
Son Gokuu (42.25): Definitely stronger than Cymbal by a fair deal.
Piccolo Daimaou (54.9): I mean, even as an old man he beat the shit out of Gokuu.
Tenshinhan (43): Let's assume that he became stronger than Gokuu while training for the MaFuu-Ba.
Drum (55.9): He really beat the shit out of Tenshinhan.
Son Gokuu (72.67): Poor Drum never saw it coming.
Picxolo Daimaou (71): Bastard had to play dorty to win.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:50 pm

Kaboom wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:29 pm Well, I don't have Androids-debut Piccolo still below Freeza, but I do have initial 19 and 20 below him. I don't currently bother having top post-absorption numbers for the Androids, but I still left plenty of "room" for them to get substantially stronger but still be outclassed by Piccolo and the Super Saiyans. These are my current numbers for all of the above:


Taking a quick glance at the good ol' Strength Checker, there's no dialogue squarely indicating exactly how much stronger 19 and 20 got from absorbing energy, in any proportionate sense, or even which of the two boosted themselves higher in the end. Nor is there anything saying that they were still "multiple times" weaker than the Super Saiyans. They could very well be close-ish but still firmly outstripped by the heroes.
For me it goes the other way around - I prefer to only list the Androids post absorptions powers. It's pretty hard to gauge their initial powers when they were constantly absorbing stuff, they might be pretty weak since they didn't expect Goku to power up much, or could be pretty strong if 19 can take punches from SSJ Goku.

Yeah everything about who ended up stronger than who is pretty subtle, the closest thing to that is Gero saying 19 multiplier it's power by absorbing the Kamehameha and even that is a Viz only. I think the way people use Freeza, whose full power was only revealed to Goku and Gohan, as a measuring stick speaks wonders though. But to be fair, nobody could know how strong the Androids were properly... #20's power can be scaled by him being weaker than Piccolo, who can be sensed, but #19 was only known to be weaker than SSJ Vegeta and Goku. I think these would be my numbers:
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Sat Mar 13, 2021 8:14 am

JulieYBM wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:46 pm snip
I'm currently re-reading the manga and doing some numbers alongside it.

My numbers get much bigger than yours using the same train of thought. For example Goku training with Karin justifies a huge jump, since he goes from being crushed by Tao Pai Pai to reversing the roles.

I haven't reached there but Piccolo Daimão "using half his power" to dominate Goku is another big jump.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:22 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 5:22 pm
In Brightest Day wrote: Tue Feb 16, 2021 9:54 pm What’s the consensus on how strong the main cast could get with just regular Earth training? No fusions, no training under or having your power unlocked by Gods/Namekians, or going into a room where you can do an entire years worth of training in a single day, etc?

Say, if the events of the series never happened and the central characters (Son Goku, Piccolo, Son Gohan, Krillin, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Master Roshi) just got to live a peaceful life while quietly training on Earth, starting from the beginning of Z, to the 28th Budokai time period?
If we're cutting the haxed training I think this also means no Saiyans, Freeza, Cell or Boo otherwise they'd logically be dead. This is a huge difference because some people wouldn't train as seriously.

The humans would probably never get invited to train with Kami, so they would be stuck in the under 400 line. Even if they did, Kuririn thought he was at his limit before having his power drawn out by Guru, so they would all top close to 2,000.

I think Goku could shoot up greatly. You didn't rule the gravity chambers out, after all... But as his rivalry with Piccolo turns into friendship, the curve would flatten; the gains would get smaller... There are two limits that represent what power Goku would reach: Saiyan limits (Possibly the 60k Ginyu estimates him to hit), or his own "limits" (He thought 90k was his limit before his huge zenkai to fight Freeza). I'm going to lean towards the former since he doesn't train with Kaio, and Piccolo should be lagging slightly behind.

No matter how much Chi-Chi wants Gohan to be a scholar I don't think he would avoid Goku teaching him the basics. Would probably be stronger than the humans, maybe around Nappa's level? His anger takes him to unknown highs though.

And of course, Roshi is as strong as he wants to be. 8)

Numbers:
Quite an interesting concept never though about how Goku and the others could improve without all the menace that came beginning with Raditz.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Kaboom » Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:56 pm

So I've been doing some PLs-related brainstorming for my very gradual, not-abandoned-I-promise GT rewrite fanfic. Specifically about how to structure Golden Great Ape and Super Saiyan 4 in PL terms, and what multipliers to ultimately give them. I have two main ideas in mind, and I'm trying to decide between them. I don't want to spoil anything about the story, but suffice to say that both ideas would function perfectly fine with what I have planned for Goku and Baby's fight, with at most only minor tweaks. So here we go...

OPTION 1: Golden Ape and Super Saiyan 4 share a "sliding" multiplier which combines Great Ape with their strongest Super Saiyan form. That's Super Saiyan 3 in Goku's case (and Vegeta's too, later on), so the maximum power boost of both forms would be 4,000x. Golden Ape starts at the bare minimum of 500x and gradually rises, while Super Saiyan 4 jumps ahead to the full 4,000x. Golden Ape is too unstable, so the Saiyan would likely be torn apart by his own energy in that form before ever reaching that 4,000x maximum.
  • GGA: 500x - 4,000x
  • SS4: 4,000x
OPTION 2: Same basic "strongest Super Saiyan x Ape" idea, but SS3 isn't factored in, and then the additional Super Saiyan 4 transformation is an even greater power boost. So Golden Ape ends up with a flat 1,000x power boost, and then SS4 increases that several-fold more, still up to the same 4,000x. This make some more sense internally, with how we've seen power levels work in the past. It's like an extreme example of the "focusing all your power into a smaller space" concept that's been seen with big ki attacks. On top of the greater effective power, Super Saiyan 4 would also still be the better choice because of its control and relative stability, and a Saiyan instead stuck in Golden Ape would still end up succumbing to the form's unstable power after a while.
  • GGA: 1,000x
  • SS4: 4,000
Option 1 was what I've been operating with and planning stuff around for a the longest time, but now I'm starting to favor this second option instead. Because...
  • It's more in line with how the two forms seemed to work in OG-GT, where Golden Ape already blew SS 1-3 out of the water but then SS4 in turn was another huge jump up from even that.
  • I've always liked the notion of SS3 being an "unnatural" form that's beyond what a Saiyan's body should be capable of, and already plan to explore that angle in other ways in GTR. So excluding SS3 from the Golden Ape equation makes some sense internally.
  • The flat 1,000x and 4,000x multipliers are a lot simpler and more attractive than the somewhat complicated "sliding scale" method of Option 1.
So what are y'all's thoughts? Any logical missteps or even-simpler options that I may have overlooked?
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Grand Marshal 1 » Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:36 pm

Kaboom wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:56 pm So I've been doing some PLs-related brainstorming for my very gradual, not-abandoned-I-promise GT rewrite fanfic. Specifically about how to structure Golden Great Ape and Super Saiyan 4 in PL terms, and what multipliers to ultimately give them...
I'm fine with either tbh. I like the 4k SS4 multiplier.

I like the power jump from SS3.

And I always had SS4 relative to SSG.

Some headcannon here, but at least for the BoG movie, SSG to me has a multiplier of 250×50 (5 super saiyans multiplying a sixth super saiyan) so 12,500. Basically a 3×SS4, but SFP SS4 would probably be in the same league as SSG.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by apex_pretador » Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:19 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:46 pm Messing around a little bit. How about "what if battle powers were introduced at the beginning of the story and didn't need large leaps to be overwhelming?" Let's assume that 1.3x stronger is enough to overwhelm an enemy, like Vegeta (24,000) did to Kewi (18,000)!

The Hunt for the Dragon Balls:

Average Human: 5
Son Gokuu (6.5): Enough to overwhelm a normal human!
Yamcha (6.4): A little weaker than Gokuu, but he makes up for it with his wits!
Muten Roushi (10): An arbitrary and round number.

Twenty-First Tenka'ichi Budoukai:

Son Gokuu (9): Had the Muten Roushi not been exhausted by the Oozaru incident I think we would have seen a more decisive decision in his favor.
Kuririn (8): Decisively below Gokuu by a notch but still impressive compared to the old Gokuu.
Yamcha (8): he's probably on the same level as Kuririn, you think?
Muten Roushi (10): I don't think he did any training for this tournament?

Red Ribbon Army:

Son Gokuu (10): I'm betting that by the time Gokuu had fought his way through to Tao Pai-Pai his power had grown exponentially.
Tao Pai-Pai (13): Damn, he nearly killed Gokuu!
Son Gokuu (16.9): Damn, he nearly killed Tao Pai-Pai!
Mira-kun (13):
Akkuman (14):
Son Gohan (22.1):

Twenty-Second Tenka'ichi Budoukai:

Son Gokuu (26): For the heck of it, we'll say Gokuu is now above Grandpa Gohan by a little bit.
Kuririn (20): At least above Gokuu's power from three years ago.
Tenshinhan (25.9): Maybe a hair less than Gokuu but makes up for it with technique and experience.
Muten Roushi (22): Technically, we didn't see his full power! This is just an idea of where he was hiding back, in my view.

Piccolo Daimaou no Fukkatsu:

Tambourine (25): I assume Gokuu could have eeked out a win if he had been at full health.
Cymbal (32.5): Built to be stronger than Tambourine.
Son Gokuu (42.25): Definitely stronger than Cymbal by a fair deal.
Piccolo Daimaou (54.9): I mean, even as an old man he beat the shit out of Gokuu.
Tenshinhan (43): Let's assume that he became stronger than Gokuu while training for the MaFuu-Ba.
Drum (55.9): He really beat the shit out of Tenshinhan.
Son Gokuu (72.67): Poor Drum never saw it coming.
Picxolo Daimaou (71): Bastard had to play dorty to win.

Okay, I'm tired.
Cool concept, though I'd like to recommend some changes based on some factors.

DB Hunt:
Avg Human - 5
Extremely strong human - 6.5
A superlarge swordfighting bear - 7.5
Goku - 10
Yamcha - 9
Gyumao (implied that even thinking about fighting him is futile) - 17

Before training with Roshi

Goku - 10
Krillin - 8 (goku beat him up easily)
Roshi - More than 17

21 TB

Yamcha - 13 (trained to get much stronger)
Oorin Temple bullies - 12 for #1 guy (Krillin thought he had no chance even after all training)
Krillin - 15.5 (close to Gyumao)
Goku - 16 (without tail), 17 (tail)
Gilan - 15
Nam - 16
Roshi - 19.5 (didnt even need to touch Yamcha, held back till moonbuster KHH)

RRA

Krillin - 15.5
Gen Blue = 17 (beat him up)
Goku - 18.5 (beat him up)
Tao - 24 (nearly killed him)
Goku post Karin - 27 (Tao did ok against him but Goku still wrecked him)
Karin - 28+

Baba arc

Yamcha = 13.5
Krillin - 15.5
Mummy - 17.5 (stomped Yamcha, Roshi respected his power)
Akkuman - 20 (thought he could beat someone stronger than mummy) - Goku very easily beat him up
Gohan - 21 (considered himself helpless against tailless Goku)
GOku 27 (tail), 25.5 (tailless)
Rshi 19.5

22 TB

Krillin (thought he could beat Goku) - 25
Yamcha (close to krillin) - 24
Goku (match lvl against krillin) - 32.5
Ten - 33
Goku (FP) - 33.5
Roshi - around 29

Piccolo saga:

Yajirobe = 35
Goku - 35
Karin = 34
Tambourine - 28 (goku easily killed him after healing, but before that easily lost)
Cmbal - 14 (explicitly stated to be many times weaker than tambourine)
Piccolo = 90 (beat Goku at less than half his power, very easily)
Piccolo young - 150 (stated that there is no comparison between old and young state of his)
Tenshinhan - 36 - trained with mafuba
Drum - stomped ten - 47
Goku - 150 (equal to piccolo)

Gods:

Goku - 151 (zenkai)
Popo - 200 (stomped Goku)
God - "far far more incredible" than popo - 400 (I'm doubling)
Pic Jr - 180 (much stronger than before)

23rd TB

Chaozu - 36 (stronger than Karin)
Cyborg Tao - 47 (stomped Chaozu)
Ten - 185 (could have mid-diffed Piccolo sr)
Krillin - 160 (could follow battle on piccolo sr level with ease)
Yamcha - 155 (same as above)
God - trained himself - 450
Piccolo - could've stomped God and all others while injured and drained - 750
Goku - 760
Roshi - maybe 100??

Raditz saga:

Roshi 139
Krillin 206
Yamcha 177
Tien 250
Goku 924 (given)
Picolo - 910 (a bit below goku)
Raditz - 1320 - stomped both together

Vegeta Saga:

Saibaman - 1200
Yamcha - beat one comfortably not a stomp - 1380
Krillin - One shotted 3 of them. barely missed fourth - 2000
Ten - 2050 = strongest human
Piccolo - Much stronger than Krillin to the point of being fearsome to him - 2400
Goku - 8001
Nappa - ???
Vegeta 18000
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:48 am

So what's the deal with the kaioken?
We know Goku was around 8,000 and that kaioken doubles that, so regular kaioken = 16,000... and then KKx2 = 16,000 also???
So are kaioken and kaiokenx2 the same?? what's the difference? what's the benefit in not augmenting your power but putting more strain on your body?

Or is it that the first time Goku used regular kaioken, he actually wasn't getting a 2x boost? and more like a 1.5x or so? meaning Goku broke Nappa's back at 12,000? and with KKx2, at 16,000 was still below Vegeta's 18,000?

Could it be that kaioken1 is like an entry door to the actual technique, sort of like Sign is to UI or SS to SS2?? and Goku in his firsts experiences with it, was taking small steps, listening to Kaiosama's warnings, and not going "full" kaioken (as in not doubling his power from the get go) and calling the actual full extent of the technique kaiokenx2, maybe because at the time it was the second stage of the full technique?? because later on, Goku only uses KK, and KKx10 or x20, and it's implied he is getting double the power when using regular KK.

Clearly, Toriyama dropped the ball here and we have to do mental gymnastics to make sense to this.

Thoughts?

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Yasai9001 » Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:45 am

apex_pretador wrote: Sat Mar 20, 2021 9:19 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 10:46 pm Messing around a little bit. How about "what if battle powers were introduced at the beginning of the story and didn't need large leaps to be overwhelming?" Let's assume that 1.3x stronger is enough to overwhelm an enemy, like Vegeta (24,000) did to Kewi (18,000)!

The Hunt for the Dragon Balls:

Average Human: 5
Son Gokuu (6.5): Enough to overwhelm a normal human!
Yamcha (6.4): A little weaker than Gokuu, but he makes up for it with his wits!
Muten Roushi (10): An arbitrary and round number.

Twenty-First Tenka'ichi Budoukai:

Son Gokuu (9): Had the Muten Roushi not been exhausted by the Oozaru incident I think we would have seen a more decisive decision in his favor.
Kuririn (8): Decisively below Gokuu by a notch but still impressive compared to the old Gokuu.
Yamcha (8): he's probably on the same level as Kuririn, you think?
Muten Roushi (10): I don't think he did any training for this tournament?

Red Ribbon Army:

Son Gokuu (10): I'm betting that by the time Gokuu had fought his way through to Tao Pai-Pai his power had grown exponentially.
Tao Pai-Pai (13): Damn, he nearly killed Gokuu!
Son Gokuu (16.9): Damn, he nearly killed Tao Pai-Pai!
Mira-kun (13):
Akkuman (14):
Son Gohan (22.1):

Twenty-Second Tenka'ichi Budoukai:

Son Gokuu (26): For the heck of it, we'll say Gokuu is now above Grandpa Gohan by a little bit.
Kuririn (20): At least above Gokuu's power from three years ago.
Tenshinhan (25.9): Maybe a hair less than Gokuu but makes up for it with technique and experience.
Muten Roushi (22): Technically, we didn't see his full power! This is just an idea of where he was hiding back, in my view.

Piccolo Daimaou no Fukkatsu:

Tambourine (25): I assume Gokuu could have eeked out a win if he had been at full health.
Cymbal (32.5): Built to be stronger than Tambourine.
Son Gokuu (42.25): Definitely stronger than Cymbal by a fair deal.
Piccolo Daimaou (54.9): I mean, even as an old man he beat the shit out of Gokuu.
Tenshinhan (43): Let's assume that he became stronger than Gokuu while training for the MaFuu-Ba.
Drum (55.9): He really beat the shit out of Tenshinhan.
Son Gokuu (72.67): Poor Drum never saw it coming.
Picxolo Daimaou (71): Bastard had to play dorty to win.

Okay, I'm tired.
Cool concept, though I'd like to recommend some changes based on some factors.

DB Hunt:
Avg Human - 5
Extremely strong human - 6.5
A superlarge swordfighting bear - 7.5
Goku - 10
Yamcha - 9
Gyumao (implied that even thinking about fighting him is futile) - 17

Before training with Roshi

Goku - 10
Krillin - 8 (goku beat him up easily)
Roshi - More than 17

21 TB

Yamcha - 13 (trained to get much stronger)
Oorin Temple bullies - 12 for #1 guy (Krillin thought he had no chance even after all training)
Krillin - 15.5 (close to Gyumao)
Goku - 16 (without tail), 17 (tail)
Gilan - 15
Nam - 16
Roshi - 19.5 (didnt even need to touch Yamcha, held back till moonbuster KHH)

RRA

Krillin - 15.5
Gen Blue = 17 (beat him up)
Goku - 18.5 (beat him up)
Tao - 24 (nearly killed him)
Goku post Karin - 27 (Tao did ok against him but Goku still wrecked him)
Karin - 28+

Baba arc

Yamcha = 13.5
Krillin - 15.5
Mummy - 17.5 (stomped Yamcha, Roshi respected his power)
Akkuman - 20 (thought he could beat someone stronger than mummy) - Goku very easily beat him up
Gohan - 21 (considered himself helpless against tailless Goku)
GOku 27 (tail), 25.5 (tailless)
Rshi 19.5

22 TB

Krillin (thought he could beat Goku) - 25
Yamcha (close to krillin) - 24
Goku (match lvl against krillin) - 32.5
Ten - 33
Goku (FP) - 33.5
Roshi - around 29

Piccolo saga:

Yajirobe = 35
Goku - 35
Karin = 34
Tambourine - 28 (goku easily killed him after healing, but before that easily lost)
Cmbal - 14 (explicitly stated to be many times weaker than tambourine)
Piccolo = 90 (beat Goku at less than half his power, very easily)
Piccolo young - 150 (stated that there is no comparison between old and young state of his)
Tenshinhan - 36 - trained with mafuba
Drum - stomped ten - 47
Goku - 150 (equal to piccolo)

Gods:

Goku - 151 (zenkai)
Popo - 200 (stomped Goku)
God - "far far more incredible" than popo - 400 (I'm doubling)
Pic Jr - 180 (much stronger than before)

23rd TB

Chaozu - 36 (stronger than Karin)
Cyborg Tao - 47 (stomped Chaozu)
Ten - 185 (could have mid-diffed Piccolo sr)
Krillin - 160 (could follow battle on piccolo sr level with ease)
Yamcha - 155 (same as above)
God - trained himself - 450
Piccolo - could've stomped God and all others while injured and drained - 750
Goku - 760
Roshi - maybe 100??

Raditz saga:

Roshi 139
Krillin 206
Yamcha 177
Tien 250
Goku 924 (given)
Picolo - 910 (a bit below goku)
Raditz - 1320 - stomped both together

Vegeta Saga:

Saibaman - 1200
Yamcha - beat one comfortably not a stomp - 1380
Krillin - One shotted 3 of them. barely missed fourth - 2000
Ten - 2050 = strongest human
Piccolo - Much stronger than Krillin to the point of being fearsome to him - 2400
Goku - 8001
Nappa - ???
Vegeta 18000
Why do you have Nappa in question marks???

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