Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:40 pm

DBZ Macky wrote:Why do you guys think Gero thought that the Earthlings would be a good source of energy? I think they'd at least have to be comparable to the Base Saiyans.
I don't think there's a reason to assume he's wrong at all. His scouter only showed malfuction at powers that far outstripped his calculations.

I don't think this implies the earthlings are rivaling the Base Saiyans though, only that they're on the same realm. This makes some sense when you remember that the Saiyans weren't considered gods until they transformed.

This also fits well with the idea of SSJ being a 10x boost post Freeza.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Desassina » Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:02 pm

I think that with the series' turn into a more slice of life type of manga/anime, the humans were certainly put on the base Saiyans' level, so that it's only when they power up or exert themselves with more that their differences show up. Remember that we went from careless Goku charging into Bulma and taking a bullet to his head to Gohan dodging bullets or catching them with his hands in the Buu saga. To make the situation less predictable, Goku's range in his base state is now bigger, thanks to SSG changing its scale in proportion to the human saiyans. From this point on, I will tackle their differences using small amounts, expressing them in 1.024, 1.25, 1.28, 1.6 and 2 times the starting unit, along with a few multipliers customized for consistency. It means that I will start with the number 1.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Pantalones » Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:20 am

Why do you guys think Gero thought that the Earthlings would be a good source of energy? I think they'd at least have to be comparable to the Base Saiyans.
That was probably just because he didn't know about Super Saiyan before #19 vs. Goku happened. I don't think the humans (or at least, not Krillin/Tenshinhan and to a lesser extent Yamcha) were that far behind the base Saiyans at the start of the Android Saga; it was only when the Saiyans continuously powered up over the Android/Cell saga that they would've been left behind by even the base Saiyans. So the humans should at least be over the 1 million mark.

Absorbing the power of somebody in the low single-digit millions would be GREAT source of energy when you're expecting a Goku in the higher single-digit millions who can power up 3-4x in short bursts with Kaio-ken. Less so when you find out that he can actually get a consistent 50x boost, of course!

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:34 pm

Pantalones wrote:That was probably just because he didn't know about Super Saiyan before #19 vs. Goku happened. I don't think the humans (or at least, not Krillin/Tenshinhan and to a lesser extent Yamcha) were that far behind the base Saiyans at the start of the Android Saga; it was only when the Saiyans continuously powered up over the Android/Cell saga that they would've been left behind by even the base Saiyans. So the humans should at least be over the 1 million mark.

Absorbing the power of somebody in the low single-digit millions would be GREAT source of energy when you're expecting a Goku in the higher single-digit millions who can power up 3-4x in short bursts with Kaio-ken. Less so when you find out that he can actually get a consistent 50x boost, of course!
Gero still saw the earthlings as a considerable fount of energy against Super Saiyan Vegeta though.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:48 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:Gero still saw the earthlings as a considerable fount of energy against Super Saiyan Vegeta though.
Correction: Gero saw the all earthlings plus Gohan and Piccolo as a considerable fount of energy against Super Saiyan Vegeta. Besides, whatever means Gero uses to measure ki seems to be pretty imprecise. He thought Super Saiyan Vegeta would be no match for #19 and look how that turned out.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Gogeta Blue » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:23 am

going by the Daizenshuus' power levels.
Trunks Arc Goku base should be at 5,000,000, so far i did read so many lists and most of them put Goku at 3,1-3,8 Millions.
after the Yardrats healed Goku, he probably got a Zenkai, he used Kaioken X10 and X20 and first time non-mastered Super Saiya-Jin and battle Freeza who's 50/100 power is 60,000,000. and he stayed there for nearly two years practicing Super Saiya-Jin and Shunkan Ido.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:40 pm

DanielSSJ wrote:Correction: Gero saw the all earthlings plus Gohan and Piccolo as a considerable fount of energy against Super Saiyan Vegeta. Besides, whatever means Gero uses to measure ki seems to be pretty imprecise. He thought Super Saiyan Vegeta would be no match for #19 and look how that turned out.
I find doubtful Kuririn and Tenshinhan (Yamcha had already left by that time) would even be included on the statement if they're non factors. Not to mention Yamcha by himself was considered great energy as well.

#20 thought Vegeta was no match to #19 because Vegeta didn't release all of his Ki yet. There is a difference between someone's Ki when they're fighting and when they're standing. Not to mention it's possible that Vegeta is so strong that surpassed the limitations of Gero's scouter. Gero does say something that implies it when Goku is fighting 19, after all.

Honestly, if Gero can tell...
SSJ Goku >>> Base Goku
Suppressed Piccolo > Gohan/Earthlings
Post Kamehameha #19 > Post Kamehameha Goku and
SSJ Goku >> Post Kamehameha Goku

Then why ignore his statements because of two mistakes that he later corrected?
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Gogeta Blue » Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:24 am

I changed the multipiers so there MAY be a fault.
Multipiers:
Oozaru : x5
Kaioken xN = Base xN (there's no such a thing like Kaioken =x1.5)
Super Saiyan = x50
Mega Saiyan (TFS lol, SSJ Grade 2) x75
Ultra Saiyan (SSJ Grade 3) x90
(note: stamina and speed decreases)
Mastered SSJ = x60
Super Saiyan 2 = x100
Maximum Over-Saiyan (SSJ3) = x400
1- OG Dragon Ball
Emperor Pilaf Arc:
Goku 50
- Kamehameha 55
- Oozaru 250
Yamcha 45
Muten Roshi (surpressed) 100
- Full Power 120
- MAX Mode 240
- MAX Kamehameha 360
21st Tenkaichi Budokai Arc
Goku 100
- Kamehameha 130
- Oozaru 500
- Post-Oozaru 40
Kuririn 80
Yamcha 85
Muten Roshi (surpressed) 110
- Full Power 130
- MAX Mode 260
- MAX Kamehameha 390
- Post-Moon Busting 50
Red Ribbon Arc
Goku 110
- Kamehameha 160
Post-Karin Goku 165
- Kamehameha 210
Hachi 100
Murasaki 45
Colonel Silver 50
General White 55
General Blue 60
Taopaipai 120
- Dodonpa 180
- Post-Karin 150
Fortuneteller Baba Arc:
Kuririn 120
Yamcha 130
Fangs 125
Invisible Man 40
Bandages 140
Spike 150
Goku 170
Gohan 170
22nd Tenkaichi Budokai Arc:
Goku 230
King Chappa 55
Yamcha 160
Tenshinhan 230
- Kikoho 460
Muten Roshi 180
Kuririn 140
- Kamehameha 170
Chiaotzu 70
King Piccolo Arc:
Goku 230
- Hungry 135
- Ultra Divine Water 290
Tenshinhan 230
Muten Roshi 180
Yajirobe 120
Tambourine 160
Drum 155
Piano 150
Cymbal 145
Chaozu 70
Piccolo Daimao (Old) 250
- Piccolo Daimao (Young) 280
23rd Tenkaichi Budokai Arc:
Goku 360
- Meteor Combination 525
- Super Kamehameha 950
Piccolo Jr. 355
Kami 310
- Shen's body 250
Kuririn 200
Yamcha 180
Tenshinhan 260
Chi-Chi 70
Chaozu 90
Cyborg Tao 180
2- Dragon Ball Z
Saiyan Invasion Arc:
Part I:
Son Goku 416
- Weighted Clothes 32
- Kamehameha 924
Piccolo 408
- Weighted Clothes 32
- Makankosappo 1,330
Raditz 1,200
Son Gohan 1
- Crying 710
- Angry 1,307
Kuririn (surpressed) 206
- Full Power 260
Yamcha (surpressed) 177
- Full Power 210
Tenshinhan (surpressed) 250
- Full Power 305
Muten Roshi (surpressed) 139
- Full Power 185
- MAX Mode 370
- MAX Kamehameha 555
Part II
Son Goku 8,400
- Kaioken 16,800
- Kaioken x3 25,200
- Kamehameha 30,000
- Kaioken x4 33,600
- Kamehameha 38,000
Vegeta 18,000
- Galick Cannon 30,000
- Oozaru 90,000
- Post Oozaru 7,000
Nappa 5,000
Piccolo 3,400
- Surpressed 1,220
Tenshinhan 2,200
- One Arm 780
- One-Arm Kikoho 1,170
Kuririn 1,750
- surpressed 1,083
- Kienzan 3,500
Yajirobe 350
Chaozu 370
Namek Arc
Gohan (surpressed) 1,500
- Full Power 2,700
- Potential Unlocked 14,000
- Zenkai 105,000
Kuririn (surpressed) 1,500
- Full Power 2,500
- Potential Unlocked 12,500
Freeza 530,000
Ginyu 120,000
Son Goku 90,000
- Surpressed 5,000
- Kaioken 180,000
Nail 42,000
Jeece 40,000
Reecome 40,000
Burter 40,000
Vegeta 24,000
- Zarbon Zenkai 30,000
- Reecome Zenkai 180,000
Zarbon 23,000
- Monster Form 28,000
Dodoria 22,000
Cui 18,000
Guldo 7,000
Dende 10
- Potential Unlocked 20
Freeza Arc:
Son Goku (Zenkai) 950,000
- Kaioken x10 9,500,000
- Kaioken x20 19,000,000
- Super Saiyan 47,500,000
Freeza 530,000
- Second Form 1,060,000
- Third Form 1,590,000
- Fourth Form 5% 2,120,000
- 50% 21,200,000
- 70% 29,680,000
- 100% 42,400,000
Vegeta (Rested) 540,000
- Kuririn Zenkai 1,620,000
Piccolo (6 days at Kaio) 18,000
- Nailccolo 1,200,000
Kuririn (Final Potential) 55,000
- Kienzan 110,000
Gohan 105,000
- Enraged 525,000
- Zenkai 420,000
Trunks Arc
Son Goku 2,500,000
- Super Saiyan 125,000,000
Future Trunks 1,250,000
- Super Saiyan 62,500,000
Mecha Freeza 50,000,000
Great King Cold 35,000,000
Vegeta 1,800,000
Piccolo 1,700,000
Son Gohan 510,000
Tenshinhan 70,000
Kuririn 67,000
Yamcha 47,000
Androids Arc
Goku 3,100,000
- Super Saiyan 155,000,000
- Sick 1,550,000
- Super Saiyan 77,500,000
Future Trunks 2,000,000
- Super Saiyan 100,000,000
Vegeta 5,000,000
- Super Saiyan 250,000,000
Piccolo 35,000,000
- Surpressed 10,000,000
Gohan 1,200,000
Tenshinhan 140,000
Kuririn 110,000
Yamcha 71,000
Android 16 370,000,000
Android 17 350,000,000
Android 18 325,000,000
Android 19 10,000,000
- SSJ Goku Blast 42,000,000
Android 20 10,000,000
- Yamcha 12,000,000
- SSJ Vegeta Blast 18,000,000
- Piccolo 22,000,000
Imperfect Cell Arc
Kamiccolo 350,000,000
- Tired 124,000,000
- Light Grenade 186,000,000
Imperfect Cell 200,000,000
- Humans 370,000,000
Android #17 350,000,000
Semi Perfect Cell 720,000,000
RoSaT Vegeta 10,000,000
- Super Saiyan 500,000,000
- Mega Saiyan 750,000,000
- Final Flash 980,000,000
Rosat Trunks 9,800,000
- Super Saiyan 490,000,000
- Mega Saiyan 735,000,000
- Ultra Saiyan 882,000,000
Perfect Cell 1,045,000,000
Cell Games Arc
RoSaT Goku 17,000,000
- Super Saiyan 850,000,000
- Mastered SSJ 1,020,000,000
Perfect Cell 1,045,000,000
RoSaT Gohan 16,000,000
- Super Saiyan 800,000,000
- Mastered SSJ 960,000,000
- Super Saiyan 2 1,600,000,000
2nd RoSaT Vegeta 12,000,000
- Super Saiyan 600,000,000
2nd RoSaT Trunks 11,000,000
- Super Saiyan 550,000,000
RoSaT Piccolo 575,000,000
Mr. Satan 15
Buu Arc
Rusty Gohan 4,000,000
- Super Saiyan 200,000,000
Gohan 20,000,000
- Super Saiyan 1,000,000,000
- Super Saiyan 2 2,000,000,000
- Ultimate 25,000,000,000
Goku 30,000,000
- SSJ 1,500,000,000
- SSJ2 3,000,000,000
- SSJ3 12,000,000,000
Vegeta 25,000,000
- Super Saiyan 1,150,000,000
- Super Saiyan 2 2,300,000,000
- Majin SSJ2 3,120,000,000
Goten 200,000
- Super Saiyan 10,000,000
Trunks 300,000
- Super Saiyan 15,000,000
RoSaT Goten 1,000,000
- Super Saiyan 50,000,000
RoSaT Trunks 1,500,000
- Super Saiyan 75,000,000
Piccolo 700,000,000
Gotenks 25,000,000
- Super Saiyan 1,250,000,000
- SSJ 3 10,000,000,000
Kid Buu 5,800,000,000
Fat Buu 10,000,000,000
Skinny Buu 7,000,000,000
Good Buu 3,000,000,000
Super Buu 10,000,000,000
Buutenks 20,700,000,000
Buucolo 10,700,500,000
Buuhan 35,700,500,000
Vegetto 5,500,000,000
- Super Vegetto 275,000,000,000
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:42 pm

The list is almost impossible to read considering how awfuly unorganized the list is. The numbers aren't any better, to say the least.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:10 pm

Something i've noticed debating on another forum and i'd like to share here regard Mecha Freeza's power...

Chapter: 330 (DBZ 136), P13.4
Freeza: “We can definitely defeat him if we go at him together, Papa. And I’ve powered up too, so I think I can probably go alone.”


So, Freeza says he has powered up but isn't sure if he can take Goku alone. Most of us think it's because Freeza has gotten barely any stronger than Goku on Namek if at all. However...
Chapter: 264 (DBZ 70), P6.5
Freeza: “It seems that the Saiyans really do hide bottomless battle power…It increases greatly the more they battle…


Freeza does acknowledge the Saiyans have bottomless power that increases after battles, and Goku fought a hell of a battle against Freeza. It's natural that he would expect Goku to have gotten stronger.

So probably the power chains goes like this:
Cyborg Freeza >= SSJ Goku (Post Namek) >/>> SSJ Goku (Namek)

Thoughts?
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Kaboom » Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:00 am

I think Freeza may not be the most reliable judge when it comes to that sort of thing, since he spent most of his fight with Super Saiyan Goku in outright denial that he'd even been surpassed in the first place.

Besides, realistically Goku could have only increased his own power so much between Namek and Earth, given that most of his time was dedicated to learning to teleport and to control the Super Saiyan transformation. It wouldn't make much sense for him to double or triple his power or anything drastic like that until he actually underwent more intense, focused training.

But still... if folks want to take that bit from Freeza as reason to increase both Goku and Freeza post-Namek at least a little more than they otherwise would, then more power to 'em.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:44 am

How strong was Yakon?

If Super Saiyan Goku had 3,000 Kili then would that mean that Base Goku only had 60 Kili? In which case if Yakon had 800 Kili then he'd be far above Base Goku.

But when they fought he couldn't even hit him. So is he actually below Base Goku or enormously above him and he just wasn't going all out when they fought?

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Sat Mar 31, 2018 4:45 am

Bullza wrote:How strong was Yakon?

If Super Saiyan Goku had 3,000 Kili then would that mean that Base Goku only had 60 Kili? In which case if Yakon had 800 Kili then he'd be far above Base Goku.

But when they fought he couldn't even hit him. So is he actually below Base Goku or enormously above him and he just wasn't going all out when they fought?
Who's to say that Goku was at full power when he fought Yakon? The only reason he went Super Saiyan was to light up the room. Besides, it's highly unlikely that Toriyama was being all that serious when making up those numbers, especially when you consider this:
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/battle-power/manga/ wrote:Incidentally, the numbers given for Yakon and Goku, 800 and 3,000, are both commonly used in Japanese as a symbolic way of saying “an enormous amount”, similar to the way the number 40 is used throughout the Christian Bible. For instance, the 800 temples of Kyoto are proverbial, as are the 8 million gods of Shinto (8 million being 800 man in Japanese, that is 800×10,000), while in Buddhism the phrase “3,000 worlds” signifies all of creation.
So Toriyama's more or less just saying that Goku ad Yakon are really strong in roundabout way.

Well, either way, I tend to consider all of Bobbidi's goons to be roughly equivalent to the previous arc villains. Pui Pui being from a planet with 10Gs seems like an obvious callback to the Saiyan arc and Dabra is directly compared to Cell. Yakon is tough opponent for the base Saiyans, but he looks like a joke next to a Super Saiyan, kinda like Freeza, so I consider him around the 100 million mark. This is all very scientific, of course.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:31 am

Kaboom wrote:I think Freeza may not be the most reliable judge when it comes to that sort of thing, since he spent most of his fight with Super Saiyan Goku in outright denial that he'd even been surpassed in the first place.

Besides, realistically Goku could have only increased his own power so much between Namek and Earth, given that most of his time was dedicated to learning to teleport and to control the Super Saiyan transformation. It wouldn't make much sense for him to double or triple his power or anything drastic like that until he actually underwent more intense, focused training.

But still... if folks want to take that bit from Freeza as reason to increase both Goku and Freeza post-Namek at least a little more than they otherwise would, then more power to 'em.
The situation is quite different though. Freeza was goings nuts because someone surpassed him, whereas he was already calm when he claimed he could take on Goku.

I think Goku got the bulk of his power up as he recovered from his battle on Namek. If sparring and fighting the Budokais can make him stronger, just imagine a life or death battle... Mastering Super Saiyan and Ki control are mentioned on SEG to yield good gains as well, and Goku's time on Yardrat focused around that.
Bullza wrote:How strong was Yakon?

If Super Saiyan Goku had 3,000 Kili then would that mean that Base Goku only had 60 Kili? In which case if Yakon had 800 Kili then he'd be far above Base Goku.

But when they fought he couldn't even hit him. So is he actually below Base Goku or enormously above him and he just wasn't going all out when they fought?
Most people think Kili isn't linear with BPs. I personally think it is, but the 3,000 came out because Goku was suppressed. It wasn't until Goku used SSJ2 that Vegeta noticed Goku surpassed Gohan, and Dabra though he could take on the 3 Saiyans after seeing the Kili reading as well, even though he later struggled against one Supee Saiyan.

As Yakon, he is definitely around Base Goku, but i give him the edge. Gohan though he and Goku should fight together when he saw Goku couldn't use Super Saiyan. Compared to others, i think Yakon is somewhat stronger than SSJG2 Vegeta. Far stronger than Shin, but still on Base Saiyans' realm and far Below Super Saiyans.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Kaboom » Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:I think Goku got the bulk of his power up as he recovered from his battle on Namek. If sparring and fighting the Budokais can make him stronger, just imagine a life or death battle... Mastering Super Saiyan and Ki control are mentioned on SEG to yield good gains as well, and Goku's time on Yardrat focused around that.
Yeah, that's true. You could easily grant him a moderate power boost just as a result of the fight against Freeza itself, combined with becoming a Super Saiyan. It's not impossible.

But the story doesn't present him as hugely more powerful yet, so I don't think there's any need for Goku to be several-fold stronger already, or anything extreme like that. Especially since nowadays we kind of have an upper limit on Goku's power for the Cell and Boo arcs. So numbers-wise I'd be very surprised if either Goku or Trunks were already over the 200 million mark at this early point.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by jeffbr92 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:14 pm

Kaboom wrote:So numbers-wise I'd be very surprised if either Goku or Trunks were already over the 200 million mark at this early point.
You mean in the Boo arc or Super?
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Vertical » Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:18 pm

Kaboom wrote:Especially since nowadays we kind of have an upper limit on Goku's power for the Cell and Boo arcs.
Curious as to what you are referring to here.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Kaboom » Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:27 pm

Vertical wrote:
Kaboom wrote:Especially since nowadays we kind of have an upper limit on Goku's power for the Cell and Boo arcs.
Curious as to what you are referring to here.
The little revelation from Battle of Gods and Super, telling us that base Goku without Super Saiyan still doesn't quite measure up to Freeza. Considering that's ~5 years after Majin Boo, it means Goku can only get so much stronger overall in each arc to still be noticeably under 120 million in base by that point. Which is plenty possible as long as you don't take certain things overly literally or care excessively about "gaps" and what have you. I manage it just fine.
jeffbr92 wrote:
Kaboom wrote:So numbers-wise I'd be very surprised if either Goku or Trunks were already over the 200 million mark at this early point.
You mean in the Boo arc or Super?
I mean as Super Saiyans in the Trunks arc. Because of what I explained above, there can't be too many huge power jumps all over the place because there's a sort of upper limit for Goku's power growth up to the end of Z.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by jeffbr92 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:27 pm

Kaboom wrote:The little revelation from Battle of Gods and Super, telling us that base Goku without Super Saiyan still doesn't quite measure up to Freeza. Considering that's ~5 years after Majin Boo, it means Goku can only get so much stronger overall in each arc to still be noticeably under 120 million in base by that point. Which is plenty possible as long as you don't take certain things overly literally or care excessively about "gaps" and what have you. I manage it just fine.


What about things like: Vegeta being confident to win the tournament with the no SSJ rule even with people like 18 and Piccolo that were stronger than him? And Dabura thinking Piccolo energy is not worthwhile compared to the Base Saiyans?
I mean as Super Saiyans in the Trunks arc. Because of what I explained above, there can't be too many huge power jumps all over the place because there's a sort of upper limit for Goku's power growth up to the end of Z.
What limit? Goku strenght 10 years after Boo still a mystery (taking Super into account or not).
Last edited by jeffbr92 on Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:00 pm

jeffbr92 wrote:What about things like: Vegeta being confident to win the tournament with the no SSJ rule even with people like 18 and Piccolo that were stronger than him? And Dabura thinking Piccolo energy is not worthwhile compared to the Base Saiyans?
Vegeta's really only bragging about being the strongest Saiyan when the "No Super Saiyan" rule is introduced, so Piccolo and #18 aren't really relevant. Besides, Vegeta's an overconfident braggart in general. Why take his boasting at face value?

In regards to Bobbidi and Dabra, the heroes were explicitly suppressing their ki in order to hide. Dabra and Bobbidi were able to sense their latent power via some magical foresight ability. Moreover, whatever means that they use to measure the Saiyans' power isn't precise in the slightest since they seemed to think that Pui-Pui would be enough to handle all four of them, and look how that turned out.
What limit? Goku strenght 10 years after Boo still a mystery (taking Super into account or not.
I'm pretty sure Kaboom was just referring to the end of the Boo arc and not the epilogue when talking about the end of Z.

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