Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:41 pm

BlazeDVH wrote:@Randomguy96 @DanielSSJ @Kaboom

Shouldn't Base Goku in cooler movie be at least 120Millions?
Be definitely is, considering that cooler isn't surprised that goku has beaten freezer after fighting his base form
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:57 pm

BlazeDVH wrote:Shouldn't Base Goku in cooler movie be at least 120Millions?
Would I be correct to assume you're referring to the part where Coola tells Goku that he understands how he was able to beat Freeza early in the fight? 'Cause I've never really bought that as meaning that Goku's base rose from around 3 million to 100+ million in less than a year for no discernable reason. It seems more likely to me that Coola just assumed that Goku eighty-sixed Freeza while he was in one of his suppression forms and didn't see his full power. Then he sees Goku turn into a Super Saiyan later in the fight and he goes, "I see! This is why my brother was no match for you!" It's as if he saying "Oh, so that's how you did it. That makes much more sense." It also matches the movie's narrative about how Coola has a low opinion of his brother for being "too soft".

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:16 pm

DanielSSJ wrote:
BlazeDVH wrote:Shouldn't Base Goku in cooler movie be at least 120Millions?
Would I be correct to assume you're referring to the part where Coola tells Goku that he understands how he was able to beat Freeza early in the fight? 'Cause I've never really bought that as meaning that Goku's base rose from around 3 million to 100+ million in less than a year for no discernable reason. It seems more likely to me that Coola just assumed that Goku eighty-sixed Freeza while he was in one of his suppression forms and didn't see his full power. Then he sees Goku turn into a Super Saiyan later in the fight and he goes, "I see! This is why my brother was no match for you!" It's as if he saying "Oh, so that's how you did it. That makes much more sense." It also matches the movie's narrative about how Coola has a low opinion of his brother for being "too soft".
Consider that movies has a different scaling from the main series, they are another separated continuity, power levels doesn't coincide with the part of main story the movie is in. The prime example is broly, in a moment where everyone in the manga is large star to solar system, he's shown to be galaxy level, and anyone in the motive is too, considering that they can fight him and goku wasn't that surprised when he came to know that broly had slaughtered a galaxy.
Other example is in m11, where c18 and ssj gotten/trunks are more or less in the same tier, meanwhile , in the main story, the 2 ssj kids are far stronger than her
remember fellas, anyone in gt after m2 >>>anyone in z (bog + rof excluded obv)

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:21 pm

p-hyvo wrote:
DanielSSJ wrote:
BlazeDVH wrote:Shouldn't Base Goku in cooler movie be at least 120Millions?
Would I be correct to assume you're referring to the part where Coola tells Goku that he understands how he was able to beat Freeza early in the fight? 'Cause I've never really bought that as meaning that Goku's base rose from around 3 million to 100+ million in less than a year for no discernable reason. It seems more likely to me that Coola just assumed that Goku eighty-sixed Freeza while he was in one of his suppression forms and didn't see his full power. Then he sees Goku turn into a Super Saiyan later in the fight and he goes, "I see! This is why my brother was no match for you!" It's as if he saying "Oh, so that's how you did it. That makes much more sense." It also matches the movie's narrative about how Coola has a low opinion of his brother for being "too soft".
Consider that movies has a different scaling from the main series, they are another separated continuity, power levels doesn't coincide with the part of main story the movie is in. The prime example is broly, in a moment where everyone in the manga is large star to solar system, he's shown to be galaxy level, and anyone in the motive is too, considering that they can fight him and goku wasn't that surprised when he came to know that broly had slaughtered a galaxy.
Other example is in m11, where c18 and ssj gotten/trunks are more or less in the same tier, meanwhile , in the main story, the 2 ssj kids are far stronger than her

Or, other exemple, Is Gogeta : in a guide, Is saidctjat m12 Gogeta ≥buu saga vegetto, implying that m12 goku is far, far stronger than his buu saga counterpart.
Last example is in m13, where goku ssj2>gotenks ssj3>mystic gohan, while in the series Is the complete opposite
remember fellas, anyone in gt after m2 >>>anyone in z (bog + rof excluded obv)

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Kaboom » Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:50 pm

Same answer as Daniel, basically. There's a dozen different ways that Goku with a PL of 3-5 million could have beaten Freeza (mostly within his lower forms) outside of "this version of pre-Androids Goku is dozens of times stronger than his main-series self for some reason." There's no need to assume things like that when it's not outright stated.

Ditto also on Coola's second line later being important, as if he's now realizing, "yeah, this would have beaten Freeza no matter what he did."
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:46 pm

p-hyvo wrote:Consider that movies has a different scaling from the main series, they are another separated continuity, power levels doesn't coincide with the part of main story the movie is in. The prime example is broly, in a moment where everyone in the manga is large star to solar system, he's shown to be galaxy level, and anyone in the motive is too, considering that they can fight him and goku wasn't that surprised when he came to know that broly had slaughtered a galaxy.
Other example is in m11, where c18 and ssj gotten/trunks are more or less in the same tier, meanwhile , in the main story, the 2 ssj kids are far stronger than her
If I'm going to put in the effort to come up with battle powers for the movies, I'd rather get creative and find a way to rationalize how the movie characters power levels fit in with their main series counterparts, and come up with in-story reasons for why they may or may not be different. The Gokus from Movie 2, 3, and 4 are all in timelines vastly different from the manga, so that'd account for the difference in power, but Movie 5 Goku is ostensibly the one from the Freeza arc, albeit a Freeza arc that ended a bit differently in the manga. There's no good reason that he'd be dozens of times stronger than his main series pre-Android counterpart and there's an easy explanation as to why Coola would think that he did indeed kill Freeza without necessitating him being as strong as Freeza without Super Saiyan. If the answer really is "the movies don't follow the rules of the main series, so just don't think about it", then why the hell should I give a rat's ass about trying to power scale it?

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:17 pm

BlazeDVH wrote:@Randomguy96 @DanielSSJ @Kaboom

Shouldn't Base Goku in cooler movie be at least 120Millions?
Going by the sounds he was using an 'invisible' Kaio-Ken in that movie, as he did in the anime version of the Freeza fight. This also helpfully explains how he went from getting taken down in one hit by Cooler to beating him up. Also base Freeza is only 60 million, powering up to 120 million requires his opponent to actively let him do so. I see it this way:

Super Saiyan Goku's Kamehameha >= Super Cooler's Supernova > Super Saiyan Goku > Super Cooler > Kaio-Ken Kamehameha Goku* > 100% Freeza > Invisible Kaio-Ken Goku (x10? x15? Something like that) ~ Base Freeza > Base Cooler > Base Goku > Armored Squadron > Gohan > Krillin

*He seemed to think that would do something against Cooler even after acknowledging him as stronger than Freeza, if his shocked reaction to Cooler no-selling it is any indication.
DanielSSJ wrote:
BlazeDVH wrote:Shouldn't Base Goku in cooler movie be at least 120Millions?
Would I be correct to assume you're referring to the part where Coola tells Goku that he understands how he was able to beat Freeza early in the fight? 'Cause I've never really bought that as meaning that Goku's base rose from around 3 million to 100+ million in less than a year for no discernable reason. It seems more likely to me that Coola just assumed that Goku eighty-sixed Freeza while he was in one of his suppression forms and didn't see his full power.
Nah. He knows Freeza was killed in his final form; Goku and Piccolo both mistake him for Freeza when they first meet him. This is also why he said only Goku could have killed Freeza, not Piccolo (who is stronger than his 2nd form and should be able to easily destroy his 1st).

Also, per Daizenshuu 4 and Chozenshu 4, the movie takes place at least 2 years after the Namek arc.
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dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:31 am

RandomGuy96 wrote:Nah. He knows Freeza was killed in his final form; Goku and Piccolo both mistake him for Freeza when they first meet him. This is also why he said only Goku could have killed Freeza, not Piccolo (who is stronger than his 2nd form and should be able to easily destroy his 1st).

Also, per Daizenshuu 4 and Chozenshu 4, the movie takes place at least 2 years after the Namek arc.
I can accept your "invisible Kaioken" explanation. It's a lot better than "movies operate by different rules, just 'cause".

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:34 am

DanielSSJ wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:Nah. He knows Freeza was killed in his final form; Goku and Piccolo both mistake him for Freeza when they first meet him. This is also why he said only Goku could have killed Freeza, not Piccolo (who is stronger than his 2nd form and should be able to easily destroy his 1st).

Also, per Daizenshuu 4 and Chozenshu 4, the movie takes place at least 2 years after the Namek arc.
I can accept your "invisible Kaioken" explanation. It's a lot better than "movies operate by different rules, just 'cause".
In the cooler movie, Is important to factor that goku took a zenkai beforehand facing cooler, and it seemed a really big one too.
I don't follow the invisible kaioken thing, for me it's no sense.that was just base goku IMO. Movies operates with a different scaling, so it's fine
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:34 pm

DanielSSJ wrote:'Cause I've never really bought that as meaning that Goku's base rose from around 3 million to 100+ million in less than a year for no discernable reason.
Just another run of the mill thing from Toei. Characters literally grow stronger out of thin air through Super.
RandomGuy96 wrote:Going by the sounds he was using an 'invisible' Kaio-Ken in that movie, as he did in the anime version of the Freeza fight.
Aren't those just power up sounds?
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Saiga » Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:18 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:
BlazeDVH wrote:I want to see your power levels for these characters:
In units of millions:

Goku (Boo): 75
Kaioshin: 2,000
Pui-Pui: <1
Cyborg Freeza: 150 (never shown)
Cyborg Freeza: 75 (base level)
Pure Boo: 30,000
Super Boo: 54,000 (Gotenks-Buu: 121,000, Gohan-Buu: 150,000)
Vegetto: 150,000 (SS: 7,500,000)
SS2 Gohan (vs Cell): 7,000
Super Perfect Cell: 5,000 to 7,000 (not sure)
Dabra: 5,000
Goku (M5): 4 (KK KHH: 126, SS: 210)
Cooler (M5): 180
Would Freeza still think he'd need Cold's help to beat (Namek SS) Goku if he's risen to that level? Yeah, he can't sense ki, but he seems to have a pretty good sense for estimating power despite that. I think that line shows he's not quite at the level, like 140-145 million. Perhaps even lower, admitting that he needs Cold's help seems like a pretty big concession for someone as stubborn as Freeza.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:03 pm

Saiga wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
BlazeDVH wrote:I want to see your power levels for these characters:
In units of millions:

Goku (Boo): 75
Kaioshin: 2,000
Pui-Pui: <1
Cyborg Freeza: 150 (never shown)
Cyborg Freeza: 75 (base level)
Pure Boo: 30,000
Super Boo: 54,000 (Gotenks-Buu: 121,000, Gohan-Buu: 150,000)
Vegetto: 150,000 (SS: 7,500,000)
SS2 Gohan (vs Cell): 7,000
Super Perfect Cell: 5,000 to 7,000 (not sure)
Dabra: 5,000
Goku (M5): 4 (KK KHH: 126, SS: 210)
Cooler (M5): 180
Would Freeza still think he'd need Cold's help to beat (Namek SS) Goku if he's risen to that level? Yeah, he can't sense ki, but he seems to have a pretty good sense for estimating power despite that. I think that line shows he's not quite at the level, like 140-145 million. Perhaps even lower, admitting that he needs Cold's help seems like a pretty big concession for someone as stubborn as Freeza.
Well, he can only maintain his full power for a minute or two before gassing out, and thus would have pretty much 0% chance of actually beating someone on par with him or even slightly weaker. I'm assuming he took that into consideration. Though maybe not considering ROF.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Fri Nov 23, 2018 11:55 pm

Saiga wrote:Would Freeza still think he'd need Cold's help to beat (Namek SS) Goku if he's risen to that level? Yeah, he can't sense ki, but he seems to have a pretty good sense for estimating power despite that. I think that line shows he's not quite at the level, like 140-145 million. Perhaps even lower, admitting that he needs Cold's help seems like a pretty big concession for someone as stubborn as Freeza.
Freeza didn't admit anything of the sort. What Freeza actually said was that he's probably strong enough to handle Goku on his own, but that they're guaranteed to win if they gang up on him.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sat Nov 24, 2018 5:45 pm

Saiga wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
BlazeDVH wrote:I want to see your power levels for these characters:
In units of millions:

Goku (Boo): 75
Kaioshin: 2,000
Pui-Pui: <1
Cyborg Freeza: 150 (never shown)
Cyborg Freeza: 75 (base level)
Pure Boo: 30,000
Super Boo: 54,000 (Gotenks-Buu: 121,000, Gohan-Buu: 150,000)
Vegetto: 150,000 (SS: 7,500,000)
SS2 Gohan (vs Cell): 7,000
Super Perfect Cell: 5,000 to 7,000 (not sure)
Dabra: 5,000
Goku (M5): 4 (KK KHH: 126, SS: 210)
Cooler (M5): 180
Would Freeza still think he'd need Cold's help to beat (Namek SS) Goku if he's risen to that level? Yeah, he can't sense ki, but he seems to have a pretty good sense for estimating power despite that. I think that line shows he's not quite at the level, like 140-145 million. Perhaps even lower, admitting that he needs Cold's help seems like a pretty big concession for someone as stubborn as Freeza.
Like @DanielSSJ said, he actually ponders the possibility of taking on Goku himself, with Cold merely making it a easy fight. If anything putting him dead even with Namek Goku is underrating him, specially when he's shown to be on that level even before his cybernetic enhancements.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:20 pm

BlazeDVH wrote:I want to see your power levels for these characters:

Goku (Boo Saga)
Kaioshin
Puipui
Mecha Freeza
Kid Boo
Super Boo
Vegetto
Ssj2 Gohan (Vs Cell)
SP Cell
Dabura
Base Goku (Movie 5)
Goku (Boo Saga): 75,000,000
Kaioshin: 2,000,000,000
Puipui: 720,000
Mecha Freeza: 135,000,000
Kid Boo: 32,000,000,000
Super Boo: 52,000,000,000
Vegetto: 37,500,000,000 (I have him at this currently but can easily change as I tweak my Super list)
Ssj2 Gohan (Vs Cell): 7,200,000,000
SP Cell: 7,000,000,000
Dabura: 5,200,000,000
Base Goku (Movie 5): 4,000,000

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:29 pm

BlazeDVH wrote:I want to see your power levels for these characters:

Goku (Boo Saga)
Kaioshin
Puipui
Mecha Freeza
Kid Boo
Super Boo
Vegetto
Ssj2 Gohan (Vs Cell)
SP Cell
Dabura
Base Goku (Movie 5)
I know i've posted this before, but i've changed my numbers. Here are the current ones (In unities of millions, ofc):

Goku (Boo Saga): 10
Kaioshin: 45,000
Pui Pui: 2.5
Cyborg Freeza: 160
Pure Boo: 36,000,000
Vegetto: 1,500,000,000
SSJ2 Gohan (Vs Cell): 1,200,000
SP Cell: 1,200,000
Dabra: 600,000
Base Goku (Movie 5): 500
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:55 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
BlazeDVH wrote:I want to see your power levels for these characters:

Goku (Boo Saga)
Kaioshin
Puipui
Mecha Freeza
Kid Boo
Super Boo
Vegetto
Ssj2 Gohan (Vs Cell)
SP Cell
Dabura
Base Goku (Movie 5)
I know i've posted this before, but i've changed my numbers. Here are the current ones (In unities of millions, ofc):

Goku (Boo Saga): 10
Kaioshin: 45,000
Pui Pui: 2.5
Cyborg Freeza: 160
Pure Boo: 36,000,000
Vegetto: 1,500,000,000
SSJ2 Gohan (Vs Cell): 1,200,000
SP Cell: 1,200,000
Dabra: 600,000
Base Goku (Movie 5): 500
Boo arc Base Goku is 10 million and movie 5 Base Goku is 500 million? What? and Boo arc Base Goku is 10 million but Vegetto is 1.5 quintillion?

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:27 am

PFM18 wrote:
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
BlazeDVH wrote:I want to see your power levels for these characters:

Goku (Boo Saga)
Kaioshin
Puipui
Mecha Freeza
Kid Boo
Super Boo
Vegetto
Ssj2 Gohan (Vs Cell)
SP Cell
Dabura
Base Goku (Movie 5)
I know i've posted this before, but i've changed my numbers. Here are the current ones (In unities of millions, ofc):

Goku (Boo Saga): 10
Kaioshin: 45,000
Pui Pui: 2.5
Cyborg Freeza: 160
Pure Boo: 36,000,000
Vegetto: 1,500,000,000
SSJ2 Gohan (Vs Cell): 1,200,000
SP Cell: 1,200,000
Dabra: 600,000
Base Goku (Movie 5): 500
Boo arc Base Goku is 10 million and movie 5 Base Goku is 500 million? What? and Boo arc Base Goku is 10 million but Vegetto is 1.5 quintillion?
I think he's trolling, I hope
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:01 pm

PFM18 wrote:
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
BlazeDVH wrote:I want to see your power levels for these characters:

Goku (Boo Saga)
Kaioshin
Puipui
Mecha Freeza
Kid Boo
Super Boo
Vegetto
Ssj2 Gohan (Vs Cell)
SP Cell
Dabura
Base Goku (Movie 5)
Boo arc Base Goku is 10 million and movie 5 Base Goku is 500 million? What? and Boo arc Base Goku is 10 million but Vegetto is 1.5 quintillion?
p-hyvo wrote:I think he's trolling, I hope
It's strongly implied in the series that it's impossible to improve your base form once you reach SSJ, so the 10mil is what his power level was back on Namek.

Movie 5 is because Cooler implies Goku could've taken Freeza after they fight a bit. I can see where people like RG96 or DSSJ come from with their interpretations, but i've yet to see something solid enough to disprove Base Goku being that strong.

What's wrong with Vegetto being that high? Is it because of the AxB implied by SEG?
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:59 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Boo arc Base Goku is 10 million and movie 5 Base Goku is 500 million? What? and Boo arc Base Goku is 10 million but Vegetto is 1.5 quintillion?
p-hyvo wrote:I think he's trolling, I hope
It's strongly implied in the series that it's impossible to improve your base form once you reach SSJ, so the 10mil is what his power level was back on Namek.

Movie 5 is because Cooler implies Goku could've taken Freeza after they fight a bit. I can see where people like RG96 or DSSJ come from with their interpretations, but i've yet to see something solid enough to disprove Base Goku being that strong.

What's wrong with Vegetto being that high? Is it because of the AxB implied by SEG?

10'000'000 Is absolutely nothing. Following the scaling, logically Vegeta and trunks far surpasses that number when they face semi perfect cell.
The axb thing is just not accountable, don't trust it. It doesn't make sense with the manga's or daizenshuu/other guides'es scaling itself. Trust me, it can't work no matter how you can try. Plus, for that , how strong would be Vegeta? It comes to be x15'000 goku, so, again, sense where are you? At least, if you want to use the a xb thing (even if is proven to be wrong) keep vegeta = goku , and, if goku Is 10'000'000, vegetto would be 100 trillions
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