Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Any general discussion regarding fan-created works of the Dragon Ball franchise, including AMVs, fan-art, fan-fiction, etc.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

Mireya
Newbie
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:08 pm

Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Mireya » Sun Mar 22, 2020 4:13 am

apex_pretador wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 2:29 pm
Given the canon BoZ numbers of:
- Goku (FP) 924
- Farmer 5
- Tenshinhan 250
- Krillin 206
- Yamcha 177

how would you place the following characters?
  • Nam
  • King Chappa (both appearances, separately)
  • Pamput
  • Tao Pai Pai (human)
  • Grandpa Gohan, Mummy and Akkuman
  • Yajirobe (first appearance)
Namu: 28

-- showed himself to be pretty close to 21st Budokai Goku, trading blows with him evenly and effectively countering the Zanzouken. Roshi even thought he might end up losing the final fight after seeing Goku defeating Namu, so he's definitely up there on their levels.

King Chappa: 83

-- Yamcha seemed worried when he saw who Goku was facing first in the 22nd Budokai and Roshi seemed to think Goku was going on a hell of a bout from the beginning and that's after experiencing Goku's power from 3 years ago, so I'd be hard pressed to place Chappa at least on post Karin Goku's level. His defeat was also a good showdown proof for everyone on how further Goku had grown in those 3 years.

Pamput: 20

-- His feat of breaking the Budokai arena seemed an impressive one for the 21st standards, but Roshi stated he's a master merely from a human standpoint, while breaking the human barrier were already projections Roshi had for 21st Budokai Goku and Kuririn, so I'd place him at 21st Kuririn's level at most.

Tao Pai Pai: 75

-- Easily defeated pre Karin Goku, enduring a Kamehameha and while noticeably outclassed, managed to at least connect a punch on post karin Goku, as well as withstand many of his attacks without getting kncoked out or gravely injured, so he's definitely closer to post karin Goku than his pre karin/21st Budokai self.

Mummy: 33

-- Kuririn seemed skeptic about Goku's chances while being familiar with his 21st Budokai power and Roshi stated that the Goku of old likely wouldn't stand a chance, so Mummy is likely slightly stronger than 21st Budokai Goku.

Akkuman: 50

-- Is supposed to be the last stage Uranai Baba fighter and didn't lose his cool upon seeing the ease with which Goku took out Mummy, so he's way stronger than his fellow fighter. Still, an easy game for post karin Goku, who when serious defeated him with one kick.

Son-Gohan: 81

-- Fought pretty evenly with Goku, doing a better job than Tao Pai Pai himself, but ended up being defeated in the end, having to resort to Goku's weakness. Still, he's pretty damn close to this Goku.

Yajirobe: 160

-- Goku after healing of his post 22nd injuries hit him with all he got, thinking he was a Piccolo's servant and couldn't injure him, much for the boy's surprise, who highlighted his toughness, so I think the little samurai ought to be at least fairly close to that Goku, whose official battle power was 180. Still, the fact that he seemed surprised when Goku took out Tambourine and kncoked old Daimao should suggest Goku is still a little beyond his capabilities.

User avatar
Limitless123
Newbie
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:02 am

Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Limitless123 » Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:12 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 2:22 pm
Hmm that's interesting. I do like the power differences for the most part but the actual numbers I find rather large. For me personally I put Super Perfect Cell at like 3.9B and SSJ2 Gohan at max like 4.2B. I think overall your numbers are rather good and I kind of agree with the small base theory as Super all but confirms it with statements from Whis about them having small base power (in the grand scheme of things). However in the Buu saga Goku fights Yakon in base, Yakon is said to have an official power of 40B. So I always put Buu saga Goku at 45M. Again though thats my thoughts
I have Gohan this far above Cell because of how their beam struggle turned out. Gohan admitedly lost over half of his power, but could still put up a resistance against Cell's Kamehameha.

I find the source of Yakon's PL dubious. It comes from a Q&A with a "DB Professor" from the V-Jump, a videogame magazine.
Mireya wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 3:32 am
Fight againt Mecha Freeza

King Cold: 90,000,000
Mecha Freeza: 140,00,000
Trunks SSJ: 160,000,000
Goku SSJ: 180,000,000

Those are my current numbers from the time of Trunks killing Freeza. Do you agree?
I think Freeza ought to be stronger than that. He claimed that he for sure wielded the greatest power in the universe this time around.
apex_pretador wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 2:29 pm
Given the canon BoZ numbers of:
- Goku (FP) 924
- Farmer 5
- Tenshinhan 250
- Krillin 206
- Yamcha 177

how would you place the following characters?
  • Nam
  • King Chappa (both appearances, separately)
  • Pamput
  • Tao Pai Pai (human)
  • Grandpa Gohan, Mummy and Akkuman
  • Yajirobe (first appearance)
Namu: 18
King Chappa: 80
Pamputto: 20
Tao Pai Pai: 160
Mummy Man: 25
Akkuman: 50
Grandpa Gohan: 75
Yajirobe: 120

I also believe Kuririn, Tenshinhan and Yamcha's BPs would've been far greater when in battle, given how Goku's power rose from 416 to 924 when fighting.
Power Levels:
Main Series + GT
Movies

Mad Swami
Regular
Posts: 666
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:01 am

Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Mad Swami » Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:18 pm

Limitless123 wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 6:12 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 2:22 pm
Hmm that's interesting. I do like the power differences for the most part but the actual numbers I find rather large. For me personally I put Super Perfect Cell at like 3.9B and SSJ2 Gohan at max like 4.2B. I think overall your numbers are rather good and I kind of agree with the small base theory as Super all but confirms it with statements from Whis about them having small base power (in the grand scheme of things). However in the Buu saga Goku fights Yakon in base, Yakon is said to have an official power of 40B. So I always put Buu saga Goku at 45M. Again though thats my thoughts
I have Gohan this far above Cell because of how their beam struggle turned out. Gohan admitedly lost over half of his power, but could still put up a resistance against Cell's Kamehameha.

I find the source of Yakon's PL dubious. It comes from a Q&A with a "DB Professor" from the V-Jump, a videogame magazine.

About Gohan's power being halved. I always view that as a more mental thing. Gohan was blasted by a strong attack by a warrior who rivals himself. Gohan always was one to doubt himself unless he was stronger than the opposition. He lost confidence that he could defeat Cell and was just mad at himself. Goku from beyond the Grave however lends him support allowing Gohan to regain his strength. I never thought in the beam struggle he would still be at half but thats my interpretation

User avatar
Koitsukai
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1286
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:24 pm

I've been reading the original manga, and I've come up with this numbers for the first 3 arcs, lowballing it in order to have them far from the big numbers Piccolo Daimaoh brought to the table, and trying to keep them as close as possible.

- Goku 10 (Ohzaru 100)
- Yamcha 8

21st TB
- Goku 30 (ohzaru 300)
- Jackie Chun 30
- Nam 28
- Krilin 28
- Yamcha 26

Red Ribbon Arc
- Goku 40
- Krilin 30
- Yamcha 26-28
- General Blue 35 (mind control 45)
- Tao Pai Pai 60
- Bora 40
- Goku (post Karin) 75
- Mummy 30
- Akuman 40
- Son Gohan 70

Mireya
Newbie
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:08 pm

Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Mireya » Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:23 pm

Well, here goes a list of battle powers I devised a little earlier, a list to which I put a high level of effort, trying to incorporate many, if not all, small elements from the story so that it looks all in place and accurate to what represents the different power hierarchies.

Anyone reading this feel free to comment and offer your input in what could be improved.


23rd Budokai

Raditz arrival

1 year afterwards

Namek arc

The Ginyus arrive

Battle against Freeza

Trunks arrives

The Androids arrives!

Post RoSaT training

Cell Games!!

Mad Swami
Regular
Posts: 666
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:01 am

Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Mad Swami » Wed Mar 25, 2020 3:29 pm

Mireya wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:23 pm
Well, here goes a list of battle powers I devised a little earlier, a list to which I put a high level of effort, trying to incorporate many, if not all, small elements from the story so that it looks all in place and accurate to what represents the different power hierarchies.

Anyone reading this feel free to comment and offer your input in what could be improved.

<SNIP>
Love it. I have very similar numbers except for Cell and Gohan. I have them a bit lower but overall this is really good

User avatar
Koitsukai
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1286
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:59 pm

Mireya wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:23 pm
I'm down with this numbers, yes.


Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 12:24 pm
I've been reading the original manga, and I've come up with this numbers for the first 3 arcs, lowballing it in order to have them far from the big numbers Piccolo Daimaoh brought to the table, and trying to keep them as close as possible.

- Goku 10 (Ohzaru 100)
- Yamcha 8

21st TB
- Goku 30 (ohzaru 300)
- Jackie Chun 30
- Nam 28
- Krilin 28
- Yamcha 26

Red Ribbon Arc
- Goku 50
- Krilin 30
- Yamcha 26-28
- General Blue 45 (mind control 55)
- Tao Pai Pai 80
- Bora 45
- Goku (post Karin) 90
- Mummy 30
- Akuman 40
- Son Gohan 80
22nd TB

- Goku 120
- Tenshinhan 118
- Jackie Chun 110
- Krilin 65
- Yamcha 60
- King Chappa 45
- Pamput 30
(Tenshinhan said Goku seemed strong enough to have killed Tao Pai Pai, so the rest of the cast should be below Tao Pai Pai)

Piccolo Daimaoh saga
- Yajirobe 100
- Goku 150
- Timbal 90
- Tambourine 120
- Piccolo old 180
- Tenshinhan 150
- Drum 170
- Piccolo Daimaoh 250
- Goku post divine water 260

Mad Swami
Regular
Posts: 666
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:01 am

Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Mad Swami » Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:58 am

Ok.....Let's give it another go shall we.

My multipliers again are:

SSJ1= x50 (split 30 to strength and 20 to speed)
SSJ G2= X50 ( split 35 to strength and 15 to speed)
SSJ G3=X50( split 45 to strength and 5 to speed)
SSJ G4=X50 ( split perfectly 25 to speed 25 to strength)
SSJ2= X100
SSJ3=X400

Metamoran Fusion= Weaker characterX20
Buu absorption works= Peak of other added to Buu
Potara= Peak of both characters added with minor boosts

Cell Saga

Buu Saga

EoZ


And I am done. Definitely my best one, I think it's pretty solid. IDK what does everyone else think about it? Also made without Super in mindm just the original DB manga. Might return for my super numbers but I just lable them as incalcuable

MechaTrunks
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 125
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:26 am

Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by MechaTrunks » Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:23 am

Mireya wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:23 pm
Well, here goes a list of battle powers I devised a little earlier, a list to which I put a high level of effort, trying to incorporate many, if not all, small elements from the story so that it looks all in place and accurate to what represents the different power hierarchies.

Anyone reading this feel free to comment and offer your input in what could be improved.

<SNIP>
Although in the initial numbers I agree a lot, I think that you take the Daizenshuu numbers for granted and this breaks your estimations of the Cell saga.

Those are the fixes I would make (in bolded) and why.

Raditz arrival

1 year afterwards

Namek arc

The Ginyus arrive

Battle against Freeza

Trunks arrives

The Androids arrives!

Post RoSaT training

Cell Games!!


That's how I see it.

Regards!

User avatar
Kaboom
Moderator
Posts: 14151
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:07 pm
Location: Funky Town
Contact:

Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Kaboom » Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:08 pm

Just something I'd like to note, everyone... if we're going to be posting long, comprehensive lists complete with notes and stuff as actual posts in this thread (as opposed to offsite links or something), let's try to use spoiler tags to keep everything compartmentalized and compact, to make it easier to scroll through the thread and keep track as we read. I've already edited the posts on this page as examples.

On top of that, when we quote someone we can cut out most or all of the actual post content, to help keep focus on specific parts or just your own reply. I've done that a few times on this page too.

This is all just minor courtesy and readability stuff, but it helps a lot with these types of threads.
deviantART
FanFic: DragonBall GT Revised
[thread]
Powar Levuls: Main Series | Movies and Specials | GT
Nintendo/PSN/Steam: KaboomKrusader

We Gotta Power >>>>> Cha-La Head Cha-La. Fight me.
If Super wanted to be "canon," then it should have been good.
A handy video guide to Kanzenshuu-level grammar quality!

User avatar
Limitless123
Newbie
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:02 am

Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Limitless123 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:50 pm

Mad Swami wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:18 pm
About Gohan's power being halved. I always view that as a more mental thing. Gohan was blasted by a strong attack by a warrior who rivals himself. Gohan always was one to doubt himself unless he was stronger than the opposition. He lost confidence that he could defeat Cell and was just mad at himself. Goku from beyond the Grave however lends him support allowing Gohan to regain his strength. I never thought in the beam struggle he would still be at half but thats my interpretation
Me too, I don’t think breaking your arm alone has ever took so much of a tool on anyone’s power before. But Gohan still seems unsure of himself well into the beam struggle, so I don’t think he’s much better if at all.
Mireya wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:23 pm
Yamcha: 170
Kuririn: 200
Cyborg Tao: 210
I think Yamcha and Kuririn should be above Tao. They could at least keep up with Tenshinhan’s movements, while Tao was completely blitzed and got wrecked badly. Kuririn and Yamcha held their own pretty well against Piccolo and Shen (Both guys far above Tenshinhan) as well, but that probably was thanks to technique rather than raw power.

But hey if Tenshinhan is suppressed when we see his power in Z why not Kuririn and Yamcha? Makes more sense than having them below Tao.
MechaTrunks wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:23 am
Nappa: 7,000 Even if in terms of speed and strength he was leagues below Goku, Nappa was a very resistant fighter. He took Goku's 8000+ punches and not only survived, but absorbed the damage pretty damn well.
--> Fully focused: 8,000+ It's a nice detail that you paid attention to the second part of the fight, which shows Nappa's real potential.
In that part, he managed to match Goku in terms of speed and strength, and he was probably more resistant than him as well giving him a little advantage if the fight hadn't ended in the way it did.
With 6000 of power, 8000 Goku wouldn't have been matched.

Uninjured-focused Nappa 12,000 This is the strength I think Nappa would have had if he started to fight focused from the beginning. In terms of offensive power maybe he would be a 9,000-10,000, but that would be compensated by his monstruous sturdiness.

Kuririn: 13,000 If you gave Krilin 13k before, he still has to be 13k, he is not a saiyan and has no zenkays!
I think that’s a bit too much for Nappa. Goku easily deflected his best attack point blank with a uncharged Kamehameha. Nappa may be close, but he’s not above Goku.

Vegeta noted Kuririn and Gohan’s powers were rising throughout their stay on Namek, so it sounds like Guru’s power unlock was a drawn out process, rather than happening all at once. You can see Kuririn’s really getting better when he can keep up with Ginyu in Goku’s body, whose BP was 23k.

Also, no way Goku was only 315,000 when fighting Freeza. He didn’t start using the Kaio-Ken until Freeza used his 50% power, beforehand he was fighting in base.

Wait a second…

50% Freeza being stronger than 2nd form Cell… Mecha Freeza being weaker than he was on Namek… SSJ being a 10x power up…

sup Freezamite
Power Levels:
Main Series + GT
Movies

MechaTrunks
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 125
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:26 am

Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by MechaTrunks » Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:40 pm

Limitless123 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:50 pm
I think that’s a bit too much for Nappa. Goku easily deflected his best attack point blank with a uncharged Kamehameha. Nappa may be close, but he’s not above Goku.
The KameHameHa is a much superior attack than Nappa's mouth fire blast.
Nappa was a much better fighter than Raditz, but he didn't had any attack comparable to the Garlick Ho, which the KameHame was.

But when it came to his offensive capacities Nappa got very close to Goku so I would say that considering how sturdy he was, in terms of PL, he was above Goku.

Limitless123 wrote:Vegeta noted Kuririn and Gohan’s powers were rising throughout their stay on Namek, so it sounds like Guru’s power unlock was a drawn out process, rather than happening all at once. You can see Kuririn’s really getting better when he can keep up with Ginyu in Goku’s body, whose BP was 23k.
Yes, that is true and could very be the case.
Limitless123 wrote:Also, no way Goku was only 315,000 when fighting Freeza. He didn’t start using the Kaio-Ken until Freeza used his 50% power, beforehand he was fighting in base.
Not in the manga. In the manga there's no KKx10 aura anywhere, not even when Kaito tells us that Goku is fighting with the KKx10.
In DB when someone's power changes, it's almost always said, and a KKx10 activation in the middle of the fight would have been pointed out by someone.
Instead, we're just told that Goku was already using the KKx10.
Limitless123 wrote:Wait a second…

50% Freeza being stronger than 2nd form Cell… Mecha Freeza being weaker than he was on Namek… SSJ being a 10x power up…
SSJ being a 10x power up FOR GOKU was confirmed by Toriyama himself in an interview and it's the only thing that makes sense considering that with a 50x increase SSJ Goku would've obliterated 100% Freezer even if he wasn't injured. And he was badly injured and managed to fight with SSJ Goku at his same level.

Regards!

Mad Swami
Regular
Posts: 666
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:01 am

Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Mad Swami » Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:34 pm

Limitless123 wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:50 pm
Mad Swami wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 7:18 pm
About Gohan's power being halved. I always view that as a more mental thing. Gohan was blasted by a strong attack by a warrior who rivals himself. Gohan always was one to doubt himself unless he was stronger than the opposition. He lost confidence that he could defeat Cell and was just mad at himself. Goku from beyond the Grave however lends him support allowing Gohan to regain his strength. I never thought in the beam struggle he would still be at half but thats my interpretation
Me too, I don’t think breaking your arm alone has ever took so much of a tool on anyone’s power before. But Gohan still seems unsure of himself well into the beam struggle, so I don’t think he’s much better if at all.
I think when he over powers Cell his power is unleashed. I personally think he is at his strongest then at least Cell saga

User avatar
Koitsukai
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1286
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:06 pm

I agree Goku didn't use kaioken from the get go, that would be OOC for him to start fighting already using his special technique and not in base to test himself. The aura not being shown doesn't mean much, that was just the anime being more explicit than the manga with its unique resources. His body would've been destroyed if he'd use KKx10 for so long and then went x20 on top of that, specially with a base weaker than 1st form Freeza, and being stomped all the time. Also SS wouldn't work with x10, Vegeta should've been so underwhelmed and disappointer if it ended up being the same boost he's been getting every 30 days but just more agile.
--
About DB, I'm disregarding the daizenshuu numbers and retconning my previous posts based on two things: Tao Pai Pai claims he is 4 times stronger than before and is easily defeated by Tenshinhan, and so does Piccolo Jr, so in order for Raditz's scouter reading of 416 and 408 to work, I'm lowballing like crazy:

Pilar arc
- Goku 10 (Ohzaru 100)
- Yamcha 8

21st TB
- Goku 20 (ohzaru 200)
- Jackie Chun 20
- Nam 18
- Krilin 18
- Yamcha 16

Red Ribbon Arc
- Goku 30
- Krilin 20
- Yamcha 16-18
- General Blue 25 (mind control 35)
- Tao Pai Pai 50
- Bora 29
- Goku (post Karin) 60
- Mummy 22
- Akuman 30
- Son Gohan 55

22nd TB
- Goku 70
- Tenshinhan 68
- Jackie Chun 60
- Krilin 45
- Yamcha 40
- King Chappa 30
- Pamput 20
(Tenshinhan said Goku seemed strong enough to have killed Tao Pai Pai, so the rest of the cast should be below Tao Pai Pai, except Roshi)

Piccolo Daimaoh saga
- Yajirobe 65
- Goku 75
- Timbal 60
- Tambourine 70
- Piccolo old 80
- Tenshinhan 70
- Drum 80
- Piccolo Daimaoh 100
- Goku post divine water 105

23rd TB
- Goku 280
- Goku 300 without weights
- Goku FP 360
- Piccolo Jr 300
- Piccolo Jr FP 350 (3,5x stronger than before, he claimed 4 or 5x, so he maye have blown a bit of smoke up his ass)
- Shen 290
- Tenshinhan 280
- Cyborg Tao Pai Pai 200 (he claimed 4 or 5x stronger than before)
- Krilin 120
- Yamcha 100
- King Chappa: 50
- Chi-Chi: 50

MechaTrunks
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 125
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:26 am

Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by MechaTrunks » Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:51 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:06 pm
I agree Goku didn't use kaioken from the get go, that would be OOC for him to start fighting already using his special technique and not in base to test himself. The aura not being shown doesn't mean much, that was just the anime being more explicit than the manga with its unique resources. His body would've been destroyed if he'd use KKx10 for so long and then went x20 on top of that, specially with a base weaker than 1st form Freeza, and being stomped all the time. Also SS wouldn't work with x10, Vegeta should've been so underwhelmed and disappointer if it ended up being the same boost he's been getting every 30 days but just more agile.
Goku never did that when his opponent was strong enough, that was only done in the anime for filler purposes.
For example, in the anime the Kid Bu vs Goku fight starts with Goku in SSJ2 to test the waters, in the manga he starts directly with his SSJ3 becasue it simply didn't make sense to use the SSJ2 against Kid Bu.

The same vs Cell, yes, Goku tested the watters, but always in his SSJ form, never in his base state (in the anime it happened this way as well).

In the Freezer fight we never see Goku activating the KKx10. That alone plus the fact that we're told that Goku was already using it means that it had to be activated prior to the fight.
Otherwise, where do you activate it? Just after Freezer reaches his 50%? When Freezer starts fighting without hands?
The anime started to paint it just after Kaito said it, but that was not in tne manga (and it wasn't a limitation of the medium either, Toriyama had drawn a lot of KK auras prior to that fight -and later in that fight as well-).
Has there ever been a single moment in the DB series, in any other fight (or in this one) where the power of a character suddenly changes and no one even mentions it?
Even small, unimpactful power ups like Celll 2nd form vs SSJ Grade 2 Vegeta are explicitly stated!

Regarding the SSJ multiplier, it's not fixed. It was (close to) 10x for Goku in Namek, it's not even 2x for Vegeta and it will be much higher for both after they train in the RoSat (especially for Goku).
Considering that Vegeta was stuck in the limits of the base state, I don't think he would complain after finally breaking this wall as a SSJ.

Regards!

User avatar
Koitsukai
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1286
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:26 pm

MechaTrunks wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:51 am
Koitsukai wrote:
Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:06 pm
I agree Goku didn't use kaioken from the get go, that would be OOC for him to start fighting already using his special technique and not in base to test himself. The aura not being shown doesn't mean much, that was just the anime being more explicit than the manga with its unique resources. His body would've been destroyed if he'd use KKx10 for so long and then went x20 on top of that, specially with a base weaker than 1st form Freeza, and being stomped all the time. Also SS wouldn't work with x10, Vegeta should've been so underwhelmed and disappointer if it ended up being the same boost he's been getting every 30 days but just more agile.
Goku never did that when his opponent was strong enough, that was only done in the anime for filler purposes.
For example, in the anime the Kid Bu vs Goku fight starts with Goku in SSJ2 to test the waters, in the manga he starts directly with his SSJ3 becasue it simply didn't make sense to use the SSJ2 against Kid Bu.

The same vs Cell, yes, Goku tested the watters, but always in his SSJ form, never in his base state (in the anime it happened this way as well).

In the Freezer fight we never see Goku activating the KKx10. That alone plus the fact that we're told that Goku was already using it means that it had to be activated prior to the fight.
Otherwise, where do you activate it? Just after Freezer reaches his 50%? When Freezer starts fighting without hands?
The anime started to paint it just after Kaito said it, but that was not in tne manga (and it wasn't a limitation of the medium either, Toriyama had drawn a lot of KK auras prior to that fight -and later in that fight as well-).
Has there ever been a single moment in the DB series, in any other fight (or in this one) where the power of a character suddenly changes and no one even mentions it?
Even small, unimpactful power ups like Celll 2nd form vs SSJ Grade 2 Vegeta are explicitly stated!

Regarding the SSJ multiplier, it's not fixed. It was (close to) 10x for Goku in Namek, it's not even 2x for Vegeta and it will be much higher for both after they train in the RoSat (especially for Goku).
Considering that Vegeta was stuck in the limits of the base state, I don't think he would complain after finally breaking this wall as a SSJ.

Regards!
I disagree, nothing implies Goku activated kaioken before the fight, that is your assumption. Considering the technique and its toll on the body, it would've been a disaster for his body to keep using it for the entirety of the fight, specially assuming his base was weaker than 1st form Freeza and even weaker than Gohan like you proposed, which I don't agree at all either. There is no way Gohan is twice as strong as Goku who just saved them all from the Ginyu Tokusentai without even trying and now is getting a huge zenkai, also there is no need for it and goes against the on-going narrative that Goku is the strongest around and the ace in the hole, not just because of his new mysterious techniques.

And I was referring only to the usage of kaioken, he didn't use it immediately vs Nappa, he tested the waters vs Vegeta and did the same vs the Tokusentai only because Ginyu asked him to, and after recovering and becoming stronger, he would've done the same, particularly so if the enemy was that strong, I mean, Goku not giving it a try? come on. When did he activated? who knows? probably after Freeza trapped him and blew him up, or when he took off his gi, probably was gradual too and not from 0 to 10.

And Vegeta should've been underwhelmed if the legend he had been chasing ended up being the same boost he has been getting every 30 days.
About the multiplier, and Freeza's BP, I'll stick to the official guide's numbers given that the manga never gave one and suplemmentary interviews about the author preferences are just that. Besides, Goku's base being 300,000 and Freeza's FP being 12M was a mistranslation, numbers in japanese are a bitch.

Best to you!

MechaTrunks
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 125
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:26 am

Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by MechaTrunks » Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:22 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:26 pm
I disagree, nothing implies Goku activated kaioken before the fight, that is your assumption.
Kaito saying Goku was using it and the activation not being seen anywhere in the fight is the implication that it had been activated prior to the fight.
Freeza doesn't know to sense energies, and even a much lower increase (from KKx10 to KKx20) took him by surprise.
And you're telling me that at some point of the fight, without Goku saying anything and without any of the other z-warriors noticing it Goku activated the KKx10, and that Freezer not only adapted to it perfectly (contradicting any other instance of a character suddenly powering up, which always takes Freeza by surprise because he can't sense power levels) but didn't even comment it?

That's not Toriyama's style. He can be criptic, but he always explains (sonner or later) what happened.

Would you be able to point the exact moment Goku activated the KK and why you think it was at that point? If you aren't able to do so, then it means that it was already activated.
Koitsukai wrote:Considering the technique and its toll on the body, it would've been a disaster for his body to keep using it for the entirety of the fight, specially assuming his base was weaker than 1st form Freeza and even weaker than Gohan like you proposed, which I don't agree at all either.
There is no way Gohan is twice as strong as Goku who just saved them all from the Ginyu Tokusentai without even trying and now is getting a huge zenkai, also there is no need for it and goes against the on-going narrative that Goku is the strongest around and the ace in the hole, not just because of his new mysterious techniques.
With the power he had on earth, he already reached the KKx4 (even if it completely destroyed him). When he arrived at Namek, he already felt confident that he could use the KKx10 (in other words, at that point the KKx10 was like the KKx2 in the fight against Vegeta).
I don't find it impossible that after a big Zenkay that put him above the 300,000 units of power (in other words, more than trippled his strength) he could fight with the KKx10 against Freezer.
In fact, when he uses the KKx20 we can see how it damaged his body less than the KKx3 did in the fight against Vegeta.

Regarding Gohan, we're speaking of enraged Gohan which already surpassed Goku when he was 4 years old and completely untrained.
He has always had a much higher power level than Goku when enraged (the only exception being in the earth against Nappa and Vegeta).

The ongoing narrative, which is true that clearly implied that Goku was the strongest, was completely retconned when Kaito said that he was already using the KKx10.
This is something that already happened in the series. When Goku fought Nappa, the narrative seemed to imply that Goku was much stronger, but when you read it a bit closely you see that Nappa was the strongest fighter.

If Kaito didn't say the KKx10, then I would agree with you, but that statement (which then Goku confirms when he directly jumps to the KKx20, meaning he was already in KKx10) changes the whole situation.

Koitsukai wrote:And I was referring only to the usage of kaioken, he didn't use it immediately vs Nappa, he tested the waters vs Vegeta and did the same vs the Tokusentai only because Ginyu asked him to, and after recovering and becoming stronger, he would've done the same, particularly so if the enemy was that strong, I mean, Goku not giving it a try? come on.
He didn't use it against Nappa because he didn't have the need, which is also the case for the Tokusentai (he would have used it against Ginyu as well if Ginyu had used his 120.000 of power against him).
Yes, it's true that he tested the waters with Vegeta, but after Vegeta demonstrated how superior he was, he never tested them anymore.

In the case of Freezer, Goku already knew of Freezer's immense strength because he was closely following the fight, so he didn't had the need to test any waters because Piccolo, Gohan and Vegeta already tested them for him.

The SSJ3 was a transformation that exhausted Goku, something he would never use to test any waters, yet he wasted no time in SSJ2 in his fight against Kid Bu. Why? Because he already knew how powerful he was.
Koitsukai wrote:When did he activated? who knows? probably after Freeza trapped him and blew him up, or when he took off his gi, probably was gradual too and not from 0 to 10.
Which in terms of writtiing would be a complete failure for Toriyama if that was his intention, and it's something that never happens in the series again (in any other fight).
The fact that Kaito tells us the KKx10 is already in use has to overwrite the whole fight for it to make sense, because if not, the fight becomes unclear.
Koitsukai wrote:And Vegeta should've been underwhelmed if the legend he had been chasing ended up being the same boost he has been getting every 30 days.
??
Vegeta was very happy with this 1,5 increase from 18,000 to 24,000.
It has never been about the increases but about being the strongest, and Vegeta was the strongest for a while when he turned SSJ.
Koitsukai wrote:About the multiplier, and Freeza's BP, I'll stick to the official guide's numbers given that the manga never gave one and suplemmentary interviews about the author preferences are just that.
The official guides are like the official anime, an interesting product but never more canon than the manga.
The author saying that Goku in Namek was a 10x (not his preferences, what he actually drew) is not something that can be dismissed.

But let's analyse the 50x multiplier:
1. It ignores that with such difference in power ther would have been no fight between Goku and Freezer. What it actually happend is that Freezer and Goku fought for a while until Freezer's stamina droped too much, not because Goku overpowered Freezer.
That already would turn the 50x multiplier into a 38-40x multiplier, just for the purposes of coherence with the whole Goku SSJ vs 100% Freezer fight.

2. It also ignores the first part of the battle, that ended with a badly injured Freezer because of the Genkidama.
A constant of the series is that the more injured a character is, the more weakened he gets. Whole fights revolve around that aspect (this one included, of course), so it can't be ignored.
Even if Goku matches Freezer's power when Freezer uses his 100%, Freezer wasn't starting the fight fresh but had already lost a ton of power.
SSJ Goku was tied with that injured Freezer, not a fresh one, so the 40x multiplier is also impossible because of that, it has to be much lower.

3. Finally we know from the Cell saga that 1.000.000 of extra Power Level was enough to put Cell from below contained Kami-Piccolo to much above him, which allows us to approximate the power a SSJ has and that Freezer lost because of the Genkidama (which coincides with what Toriyama said about Goku SSJ being approximately a 10x power up).
Koitsukai wrote:Besides, Goku's base being 300,000 and Freeza's FP being 12M was a mistranslation, numbers in japanese are a bitch.
I'm not using any bad translation to defend my stance, just the manga.
I don't know if there was a bad translation of the guide (I know how japanese numbers work and it can happen) but on the other hand, if the guides are based in the anime (where the KKx10 is actually seen) then it's logical that they would have 10x bigger numbers than me.

Regards!

User avatar
Koitsukai
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1286
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:31 pm

MechaTrunks wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:22 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:26 pm
I disagree, nothing implies Goku activated kaioken before the fight, that is your assumption.
Kaito saying Goku was using it and the activation not being seen anywhere in the fight is the implication that it had been activated prior to the fight.
Freeza doesn't know to sense energies, and even a much lower increase (from KKx10 to KKx20) took him by surprise.
And you're telling me that at some point of the fight, without Goku saying anything and without any of the other z-warriors noticing it Goku activated the KKx10, and that Freezer not only adapted to it perfectly (contradicting any other instance of a character suddenly powering up, which always takes Freeza by surprise because he can't sense power levels) but didn't even comment it?

That's not Toriyama's style. He can be criptic, but he always explains (sonner or later) what happened.

Would you be able to point the exact moment Goku activated the KK and why you think it was at that point? If you aren't able to do so, then it means that it was already activated.
I disagree, not being able to pinpoint when it was activated doesn't mean it was activated before. It was also part of the narrative to have us not knowing if Goku still had an ace up his sleeve or not. That was why Kaiosama was the one stating it was already been activated. It would've been the first and only time Goku went full KK from the start, I don't believe such an important moment could've happened without being explicitly stated. Also, Kaiosama never said Goku used it from the beginning, so I can't buy that based on assumptions. In fact, at the very start of the fight, Kaiosama kept commenting Goku's lack of limits and how he can't believe his new power. Hardly a thing you'd say to someone who is "cheating" his way up through KKx10, and happens to be weaker than Piccolo and Gohan.
MechaTrunks wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:22 pm
Koitsukai wrote:Considering the technique and its toll on the body, it would've been a disaster for his body to keep using it for the entirety of the fight, specially assuming his base was weaker than 1st form Freeza and even weaker than Gohan like you proposed, which I don't agree at all either.
There is no way Gohan is twice as strong as Goku who just saved them all from the Ginyu Tokusentai without even trying and now is getting a huge zenkai, also there is no need for it and goes against the on-going narrative that Goku is the strongest around and the ace in the hole, not just because of his new mysterious techniques.
With the power he had on earth, he already reached the KKx4 (even if it completely destroyed him). When he arrived at Namek, he already felt confident that he could use the KKx10 (in other words, at that point the KKx10 was like the KKx2 in the fight against Vegeta).
I don't find it impossible that after a big Zenkay that put him above the 300,000 units of power (in other words, more than trippled his strength) he could fight with the KKx10 against Freezer.
In fact, when he uses the KKx20 we can see how it damaged his body less than the KKx3 did in the fight against Vegeta.

Regarding Gohan, we're speaking of enraged Gohan which already surpassed Goku when he was 4 years old and completely untrained.
He has always had a much higher power level than Goku when enraged (the only exception being in the earth against Nappa and Vegeta).

The ongoing narrative, which is true that clearly implied that Goku was the strongest, was completely retconned when Kaito said that he was already using the KKx10.
This is something that already happened in the series. When Goku fought Nappa, the narrative seemed to imply that Goku was much stronger, but when you read it a bit closely you see that Nappa was the strongest fighter.

If Kaito didn't say the KKx10, then I would agree with you, but that statement (which then Goku confirms when he directly jumps to the KKx20, meaning he was already in KKx10) changes the whole situation.
I disagree, Nappa wasn't stronger than Goku. Nothing implied that at all, at best you could say Nappa could give Goku a waku waku fight, but stronger? I don't think so. And Gohan can't be stronger than Goku on Namek, his rage can do so much but can't challenge Vegeta, who admits Goku must be the SS from the legend. Vegeta acknowledges Goku's strenght and that he can actually kill Freeza, something he wouldn't say if Goku was weaker than the namek, the kid and himself and could only rely on a technique. Vegeta's blind faith in Goku works if Goku starts leagues above all of them AND on top of that he can double or triple his power.
MechaTrunks wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:22 pm

He didn't use it against Nappa because he didn't have the need, which is also the case for the Tokusentai (he would have used it against Ginyu as well if Ginyu had used his 120.000 of power against him).
Yes, it's true that he tested the waters with Vegeta, but after Vegeta demonstrated how superior he was, he never tested them anymore.

In the case of Freezer, Goku already knew of Freezer's immense strength because he was closely following the fight, so he didn't had the need to test any waters because Piccolo, Gohan and Vegeta already tested them for him.

The SSJ3 was a transformation that exhausted Goku, something he would never use to test any waters, yet he wasted no time in SSJ2 in his fight against Kid Bu. Why? Because he already knew how powerful he was.
Well, you can only test your strenght once in a fight. Goku kept testing his powers in BoG, in RoF, and in BR:movie. He was becoming stronger by the minute in that part of the story, why wouldn't he test himself against the greatest enemy? After coming out of the pod, he can't believe how strong he has gotten, he believes he can do it, after sensing the whole fight with Freeza, that is something a guy that is stronger than what he sensed would say. If he was the weakest one, he wouldn't be so full of himself, sort of speak.
MechaTrunks wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:22 pm
Koitsukai wrote:When did he activated? who knows? probably after Freeza trapped him and blew him up, or when he took off his gi, probably was gradual too and not from 0 to 10.
Which in terms of writtiing would be a complete failure for Toriyama if that was his intention, and it's something that never happens in the series again (in any other fight).
The fact that Kaito tells us the KKx10 is already in use has to overwrite the whole fight for it to make sense, because if not, the fight becomes unclear.
That would make sense if Goku were actually so much weaker, but he was not, so going gradually is a possibilty.

MechaTrunks wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:22 pm
Koitsukai wrote:About the multiplier, and Freeza's BP, I'll stick to the official guide's numbers given that the manga never gave one and suplemmentary interviews about the author preferences are just that.
The official guides are like the official anime, an interesting product but never more canon than the manga.
The author saying that Goku in Namek was a 10x (not his preferences, what he actually drew) is not something that can be dismissed.

But let's analyse the 50x multiplier:
1. It ignores that with such difference in power ther would have been no fight between Goku and Freezer. What it actually happend is that Freezer and Goku fought for a while until Freezer's stamina droped too much, not because Goku overpowered Freezer.
That already would turn the 50x multiplier into a 38-40x multiplier, just for the purposes of coherence with the whole Goku SSJ vs 100% Freezer fight.

2. It also ignores the first part of the battle, that ended with a badly injured Freezer because of the Genkidama.
A constant of the series is that the more injured a character is, the more weakened he gets. Whole fights revolve around that aspect (this one included, of course), so it can't be ignored.
Even if Goku matches Freezer's power when Freezer uses his 100%, Freezer wasn't starting the fight fresh but had already lost a ton of power.
SSJ Goku was tied with that injured Freezer, not a fresh one, so the 40x multiplier is also impossible because of that, it has to be much lower.

3. Finally we know from the Cell saga that 1.000.000 of extra Power Level was enough to put Cell from below contained Kami-Piccolo to much above him, which allows us to approximate the power a SSJ has and that Freezer lost because of the Genkidama (which coincides with what Toriyama said about Goku SSJ being approximately a 10x power up).
Can't agree with this either, Goku was way more injured than Freeza throughout the whole fight. Beating +KKx10 +KKx20, he would've drowned if it wasn't for Piccolo, he could hardly fight after KKx20. So the injuries cancel each other out. Also, the power drop is relative, subjective and never really expanded upon, so talking about them is really your headcanon vs mine.
The manga and anime, aside of crappy filler, are pretty much the same in both media. So whatever applies to the manga applies to the anime, and viceversa. It's not like Saint Seiya, or a movie based on a book.
MechaTrunks wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 3:22 pm
Koitsukai wrote:Besides, Goku's base being 300,000 and Freeza's FP being 12M was a mistranslation, numbers in japanese are a bitch.
I'm not using any bad translation to defend my stance, just the manga.
I don't know if there was a bad translation of the guide (I know how japanese numbers work and it can happen) but on the other hand, if the guides are based in the anime (where the KKx10 is actually seen) then it's logical that they would have 10x bigger numbers than me.
Here it is explained the mistranslation
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... pecial-qa/


My main problem with this is that Goku wouldn't have fought Freeza on his own if he actually was the weakest one of the gang and KK was the only way out. They would've teammed up with Goku using KK. He wouldn't have mind it, he did it vs Raditz. Piccolo even says they should get out because they would only be hindering him. It would've been stated from the beginning without a doubt Goku couldn't do a thing without KK, but it is implied Goku is on another level now. Why wouldn't Krilin comment that Goku is using Kaioken from the start?
It also would mean his saiya power is no longer a thing, because from Raditz to Vegeta he increased like 20x, and from that to Namek like 10x, and for the final fight... just 3x? sounds like going against the theme of the saiyapower and Goku for the most important part of the story. It's a crippling thing to do, and contradicts his friends and Kaiosama being in awe.

We have to consider the S-cells too. With a base of 300,000 he would never have been the first one to have more of those and go SS. Vegeta and Gohan should've done it first. KK shouldn't give him more S-Cells (Vegeta went SS with a base weaker than Goku at KKx20), because when he goes SS he is just in his weakened base that has to be stronger than Vegeta's and Gohan's, otherwise it would've been the first SS bargain sale.

You seem pretty convinced of your POV, so I don't think we'll see eye to eye on this one, huh? and I take from calling him Kaito that you are from Spain, so I feel I should wish you guys all the best on this awful times, so I'll double the regards!.

MechaTrunks
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 125
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:26 am

Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by MechaTrunks » Sat Mar 28, 2020 10:12 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:31 pm
I disagree, not being able to pinpoint when it was activated doesn't mean it was activated before. It was also part of the narrative to have us not knowing if Goku still had an ace up his sleeve or not. That was why Kaiosama was the one stating it was already been activated.

Not being able to pinpoint it completely breaks the narrative style of Toriyama's fights.
I completely agree with you in that Toriyama did that as a way of surprising the readers: TenShinHan represents we are thinking at that moment (that everything is right since Freezer is already using 50% of his power and we knew Goku could use the KKx10) and Kaito adresses him (us) stating that Goku has no such resource because he is already fighting with the KKx10.
If you think about it, it was a very forced dialogue just to make this exposition.

If Toriyama would've wanted to imply that Goku activated the KKx10 somewhere in the fight, Kaito would've said something like "no, Goku activated the KKx10 as soon as Freezer used 50% of his strength" (for example).

A scenario so vague it's impossible to pinpoint the moment Goku activated the strongest KK ever seen in the whole series while doing it ON-SCREEN is not Toriyama's stile.
The KK had to be activated OFF-SCREEN, and the only moment that activation could have happened was after he left the healing machine and went to fight Freezer.
Koitsukai wrote:It would've been the first and only time Goku went full KK from the start, I don't believe such an important moment could've happened without being explicitly stated.
It was also the first time that Goku fought against a foe so many times stronger than him.
The fight against Kid Bu was also the first time Goku started a fight in his SSJ3.
And in the fight vs #19 Goku already started at SSJ max power (even Piccolo was surprised).
Goku may enjoy starting slow, but if the situation requires going strong from the beginning he surely is no masochistic :wink:

And the thing is, it was explicitly stated (by Kaito), it's just that the statement came a bit after the fact for narrative purposes (as you very well argued).
Goku's entrance wouldn't have been as hype if we alredy knew he was doing what he did with the KKx10 activated.
Toriyama hyped us and then he told us that yes, Goku was strong, but not as strong as we had assumed.

Your stance also implies 2 things that would be a first (and last) for the series: a fighter increasing his strength during the fight without it being clearly stated/shown and a technique being used without it being mentioned.

Goku starting the fight with the KK may seem strange for him, but as I said, it wouldn't be different than what he did in other fights (and he still could reach KKx20, so it's not as if he was going all out like he did against #19 and Kid Bu).
On the other hand, there are no precedents of Toriyama breaking his writting style and it also never happened again in any other fight.
If Toriyama really wanted the KKx10 invisible on-screen activation, at least Kaito would've told us when it was activated when revealing us that Goku was already using it.

Koitsukai wrote:Also, Kaiosama never said Goku used it from the beginning, so I can't buy that based on assumptions.
In fact, at the very start of the fight, Kaiosama kept commenting Goku's lack of limits and how he can't believe his new power. Hardly a thing you'd say to someone who is "cheating" his way up through KKx10, and happens to be weaker than Piccolo and Gohan.

Kaiosama said Goku was already using it and didn't specify any concrete activation point (nor was that even hinted in any way during the fight).
It being from the beginning the implication of no one can being able to pinpoint the moment where the KKx10 was activated (because there simply wasn't any).
And that concept of cheating doesn't exist in Dragon Ball. When Ginyu completley guessed Goku's real PL and he resorted to the KKx2 to impress him, was this cheating?
Kaito is giving his opinion on Goku as a fighter, and considering that no one else had enough mastering of the Ki to use the KK and Goku was using it at a much higher level than Kaito even envisioned then what he says still stands true.
Goku is the most capable fighter of the z-warriors at that point and the only one able to fight with Freezer, even if it was because of the KK.
Koitsukai wrote:I disagree, Nappa wasn't stronger than Goku. Nothing implied that at all, at best you could say Nappa could give Goku a waku waku fight, but stronger? I don't think so.
When Nappa managed to match 8000+ Goku in overall strength he had already taken a lot of damage, mostly from Goku's first assault.
Nappa had been fighting at a much lower PL the whole time (it's the exact same stiuation than KKx10 Goku, but instead of starting with the power up he started with a hindrance), his offensive cappabilities approximately in the 5000-6000 range (he tanked monstruous -although handicaped- attacks like Ten's kikoho and one-shoted Piccolo with a basic ki blast) but he managed to tank Goku's 8000+ hits without being fatally injured. That alone would put him at the high 7000s PL.
Remember that Raditz (1200, let's say 1100 at that point in the fight) was fatally injured by Gohan's 1307 headbutt (and when I say fatally injured, I mean it).
10-15% PL differences in DB are already almost decisive.
So for Nappa to tank Goku's 8000+ hits, it meant it's defenses were that of a 7800-8100 fighter even prior to calming himself.

Then, after calming down, his offensive capabilities grew enough to match Goku's (which is a balanced fighter) which coupled whith his high sturdiness (he tanked the KameHameHa like nothing) put him above Goku in terms of PL (Goku still had the KK so that fight would've always gone for him, of course).
So a calmed down, 100% fresh Nappa would be even stronger.

Toriyama did that a lot of times. A18 vs SSJ Vegeta is another example. A18 trounced SSJ Vegeta despite them being equal at strength.
He writted hype scenes for the characters, but he knew how to do so without completely breaking the power scales and feel as cheap as the majority of other shounen are.
Koitsukai wrote:And Gohan can't be stronger than Goku on Namek, his rage can do so much but can't challenge Vegeta, who admits Goku must be the SS from the legend. Vegeta acknowledges Goku's strength and that he can actually kill Freeza, something he wouldn't say if Goku was weaker than the namek, the kid and himself and could only rely on a technique. Vegeta's blind faith in Goku works if Goku starts leagues above all of them AND on top of that he can double or triple his power.
Vegeta acknowledged Goku's strength even when Goku was already much weaker than him (I'm talking of 90.000 PL Goku being admired by a 200.000-300.000 Vegeta during the fight against the Ginyus), but there's a difference between what you (or I) can considere the true power of a character (that is, without any technique to enchance him) and what's considered stronger in the narrative of the series.
In the series "stronger" means "a superior fighter", just that.

Goku was superior to Vegeta (even if it was with the KK) and to anyone else, even if you as a fan may feel that this superiority comming with the KKx10 made Goku a cheater. The thing is that he wasn't by the standards of the series.
Koitsukai wrote:Well, you can only test your strenght once in a fight. Goku kept testing his powers in BoG, in RoF, and in BR:movie.
He tested them in BoG because he was discovering the God realm of powers for the first time and Bills never went for the kill.
In RoF I disagree. He fought in SSJGod form (well, in the movie continuity that would be his augmented base state) against Final Form Freezer because that was enough to beat him, then he turned SSJ Blue but once he saw Golden Freezer's strength he started the fight going all out.
In fact, if you don't like cheating, that's what Goku did during the whole fight:
- He saw that Freezer surpassed him in strength but that his power was rapidly falling, so he started to chit-chat with Freezer to lose time.
- After he told Freezer what was happening confident that he could win, he still avoided the direct fight once he saw Freezer's last remains of power were still high enough.
- He didn't openly confront him until Golden Freezer's power had fallen below his.

That's the complete oposite of testing the waters (at least in the SSJB vs GF part of the fight)!

Regarding the Broly movie, I seriously think that those 2 minutes of Goku being retarded were something completely designed and introduced there by the Toei animation studio.
That was anime-retarded Goku and completely broke the logic of the battle (we saw Brolly progressively going from strong base state, to SSJ, to SSJ2 and finally to SSJGod) because that Broly should have one hit killed any Goku below the God-forms (and he wasn't restraining himself, heck, his whole character revolves around him being unrestrained).
I don't think that scene was on Toriyama's script in any possible way or form.
Koitsukai wrote:He was becoming stronger by the minute in that part of the story, why wouldn't he test himself against the greatest enemy? After coming out of the pod, he can't believe how strong he has gotten, he believes he can do it, after sensing the whole fight with Freeza, that is something a guy that is stronger than what he sensed would say. If he was the weakest one, he wouldn't be so full of himself, sort of speak.
Goku always took the KK into account when comparing himself with other fighters.
With that logic, 90.000 Goku shouldn't be confident against 120.000 Ginyu, right?
But Goku is not only confident but even fakes a progressive Ki increase with a KK on top of it and tells Ginyu that he can still become stronger.

Goku knew Freezer's strength, he knew he could perfectly increase his KK even further than the KKx10 he constantly used and that was enough to fight Freezer at his best (at least, the best Goku knew).
He could also be confident witht he KKx10 activated because he had margin to increase his strength a lot more in case of need.
Koitsukai wrote: That would make sense if Goku were actually so much weaker, but he was not, so going gradually is a possibilty.
When a KK is activated it's always said, and if skeeping one "KKx10" activation would already be very vague, are you telling me that Goku activated the KKx2, KKx3, KKx4 KKx5...until the KKx10 without anyone noticing, no one saying it and it not being shown? 9 invisible on-screen KK activations?
There's no progressive KK, the only thing that could resemble that would be Goku and his KKx2 vs Ginyu, but it was always a KKx2 just with him gradually increasing his Ki.
Koitsukai wrote:Can't agree with this either, Goku was way more injured than Freeza throughout the whole fight. Beating +KKx10 +KKx20, he would've drowned if it wasn't for Piccolo, he could hardly fight after KKx20.
And this is true (Goku was completely weakened after the Genkidama) but then the rage boost happened.
Rage Boosts ignore injuries and completely replenish one's strength as we saw happening to Gohan multiple times.

Look at chapter 325 of the manga (the one where Goku retires from the fight because Freezer's power has fallen too much).
Goku reverted to his base form and was able to fly at full speed and to dodge one of Freezer's kienzans, meaning that his power was replenished.

That's not he case for Freezer, he didn't recover his strength (him losing power is implied just after he comes back from the Genkidama and directly stated in chapter 323) and since he was badly injured the loss of strength had to be considerable.
Koitsukai wrote:Also, the power drop is relative, subjective and never really expanded upon, so talking about them is really your headcanon vs mine.
In the Cell saga we have concrete numbers that allow us to approximate it very well (my 3rd point).
Koitsukai wrote:The manga and anime, aside of crappy filler, are pretty much the same in both media. So whatever applies to the manga applies to the anime, and viceversa. It's not like Saint Seiya, or a movie based on a book.
The anime lacks consistency.
Filler is not just sagas like the other world tournament, it's also scenes like Goku surprising 50% Freezer after the KKx20 and without a just because Freezer is beating him and he remembers his friends.

And when it's not filler it's badly adapted scenes like suddenly drawing the KKx10 aura on Goku when Kaito tells us he is using it (it was never drawn in the manga, it should have never been in the anime).

I'm not saying it's a bad anime (that category is for abominations like Toriko that completely destroy the source material), but it's writting was subpar compared to the manga even when adapting it.
Koitsukai wrote:Here it is explained the mistranslation
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... pecial-qa/
I don't see anything related to the mistranslation in that link.
Koitsukai wrote:My main problem with this is that Goku wouldn't have fought Freeza on his own if he actually was the weakest one of the gang and KK was the only way out. They would've teammed up with Goku using KK.
They didn't team up with Goku because they could do nothing except for disturbing him.
It doesn't matter if Goku was using the KKx10 or not, they were too weak to fight Freezer and Goku wasn't.

Lastly, the KKx10 wasn't any kind of "last resort" for Goku. It was a state he could fight for very prolongued periods of time and he still had margin to increase his strength even more through higher levels of KK.
Koitsukai wrote:He wouldn't have mind it, he did it vs Raditz. Piccolo even says they should get out because they would only be hindering him.
Piccolo was as strong as Goku in that fight, he helped because he could be of help.
In this fight they could be killed without even noticing it (Piccolo was only able to see flashes of light when Freezer fired his weak death beams, and Gohan & Krillin not even that) while Goku was able to fight.
"Helping" Goku would've only meant that Goku would've had to constantly worry for them and Freezer could have taken advantage of this. Goku being better fighting on his own is as valid with or without the KK.
Koitsukai wrote: It would've been stated from the beginning without a doubt Goku couldn't do a thing without KK, but it is implied Goku is on another level now. Why wouldn't Krilin comment that Goku is using Kaioken from the start?
Why? The intention of Toriyama was clearly to hype Goku and the fight, and you yourself admited that it was a narrative choice from Toriyama to surprise us as the readers.
If Krilin had said that, then the fun would have been spoiled.
Koitsukai wrote:It also would mean his saiya power is no longer a thing, because from Raditz to Vegeta he increased like 20x, and from that to Namek like 10x, and for the final fight... just 3x?
sounds like going against the theme of the saiyapower and Goku for the most important part of the story.
From Raditz to Vegeta he trained in 10x gravity for months, upped his mastery of the Ki (which allowed him to learn the KK and increased his PL) and had a zenkay after dying and having his body restored.
In the travel to Namek, a part from having another training at 100G, he completely abused the Zenkays (he had 4 or 5 senzu at the verge of dying).

So, what seems out of that norm to me is that with just another zenkay and no trainings of any kind he could go from 90,000 to 3,000,000.
90,000 to 300,000+ already seems a very high jump to me (higher than most of the other zenkays we saw in the series, only comparable to Vegeta's last two) but 90,000 to 3,000,000 would be absurdly monstruous, much higher than any other zenkay by a very huge margin.

Furthermore, Goku was a low level saiyan, him being weaker but managing to surpass Vegeta thanks to being a better fighter fits more the narrative than suddenly having an exagerated power up because he's the protagonist.

[quot=Koitsukaie]and contradicts his friends and Kaiosama being in awe. [/quote]
Everyone was in awe because he was able to fight Freezer fairly well.
Koitsukaie wrote:We have to consider the S-cells too. With a base of 300,000 he would never have been the first one to have more of those and go SS.
??? Toriyama said in that interview that the S-Cells are also more prominent in kind-hearted saiyans, which was the case for Goku.
In any way, I don't see how it contradicts anything, 300,000 was a much higher PL than un-enraged Gohan and Vegeta had 0% kindness and 0 rage boosts.
In the manga no S-cell explanation was given but in the end it's more or less the same: When a saiyan has a rage boost after having reached a high enough PL, they turn into SSJ.
Koitsukaie wrote:Vegeta and Gohan should've done it first.

Both of them lacked one of the crucial aspects for turning into a SSJ.
Vegeta had no kidness and Gohan wasn't strong enough.
Koitsukaie wrote:KK shouldn't give him more S-Cells (Vegeta went SS with a base weaker than Goku at KKx20), because when he goes SS he is just in his weakened base that has to be stronger than Vegeta's and Gohan's, otherwise it would've been the first SS bargain sale.
He was stronger than Gohan and weaker than Vegeta, but Vegeta didn't have any rage boost to turn into a SSJ.
Koitsukaie wrote:You seem pretty convinced of your POV, so I don't think we'll see eye to eye on this one, huh? and I take from calling him Kaito that you are from Spain, so I feel I should wish you guys all the best on this awful times, so I'll double the regards!.
Hahaha you can bet I am very convinced of it (although I always accept it if I'm proven wrong) and thank you very much for your kind words.
It's always a pleasure to have such good Dragon Ball debates (even if we end up not agreeing with each other, this is a diverse world thankfully) and it helps me evade from such hard times.

Regards!!!

Mireya
Newbie
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:08 pm

Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Mireya » Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:24 am

Mad Swami wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 3:29 pm
Mireya wrote:
Wed Mar 25, 2020 2:23 pm
Well, here goes a list of battle powers I devised a little earlier, a list to which I put a high level of effort, trying to incorporate many, if not all, small elements from the story so that it looks all in place and accurate to what represents the different power hierarchies.

Anyone reading this feel free to comment and offer your input in what could be improved.

<SNIP>
Love it. I have very similar numbers except for Cell and Gohan. I have them a bit lower but overall this is really good
Thanks man, I'm really glad you liked it. Good to receive this approval, make me more confident of my numbers. Anyway, the Boo arc is coming up soon and I hope you like it as well. Thank you!

Kaiotsukai -- thanks man!
MechaTrunks wrote:Although in the initial numbers I agree a lot, I think that you take the Daizenshuu numbers for granted and this breaks your estimations of the Cell saga.
Well, I discarded some few Daizenshuu numbers I felt were beyond repair (Nappa's and pre final zenkai Vegeta's... and still in Nappa's case I settled for a middle ground) but I didn't seem the other ones as off and distanced to what was shown in the manga so I felt fine in using them.

I see that your list is pretty unorthodox. Maybe we can have a discussion regarding some aspects of it as some numbers raise curiosity, no offense intended.

Post Reply