Koitsukai wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 27, 2020 5:31 pm
I disagree, not being able to pinpoint when it was activated doesn't mean it was activated before. It was also part of the narrative to have us not knowing if Goku still had an ace up his sleeve or not. That was why Kaiosama was the one stating it was already been activated.
Not being able to pinpoint it completely breaks the narrative style of Toriyama's fights.
I completely agree with you in that Toriyama did that as a way of surprising the readers: TenShinHan represents we are thinking at that moment (that everything is right since Freezer is already using 50% of his power and we knew Goku could use the KKx10) and Kaito adresses him (us) stating that Goku has no such resource because he is already fighting with the KKx10.
If you think about it, it was a very forced dialogue just to make this exposition.
If Toriyama would've wanted to imply that Goku activated the KKx10 somewhere in the fight, Kaito would've said something like "no, Goku activated the KKx10 as soon as Freezer used 50% of his strength" (for example).
A scenario so vague it's impossible to pinpoint the moment Goku activated the strongest KK ever seen in the whole series while doing it ON-SCREEN is not Toriyama's stile.
The KK had to be activated OFF-SCREEN, and the only moment that activation could have happened was after he left the healing machine and went to fight Freezer.
Koitsukai wrote:It would've been the first and only time Goku went full KK from the start, I don't believe such an important moment could've happened without being explicitly stated.
It was also the first time that Goku fought against a foe so many times stronger than him.
The fight against Kid Bu was also the first time Goku started a fight in his SSJ3.
And in the fight vs #19 Goku already started at SSJ max power (even Piccolo was surprised).
Goku may enjoy starting slow, but if the situation requires going strong from the beginning he surely is no masochistic
And the thing is, it was explicitly stated (by Kaito), it's just that the statement came a bit after the fact for narrative purposes (as you very well argued).
Goku's entrance wouldn't have been as hype if we alredy knew he was doing what he did with the KKx10 activated.
Toriyama hyped us and then he told us that yes, Goku was strong, but not as strong as we had assumed.
Your stance also implies 2 things that would be a first (and last) for the series: a fighter increasing his strength during the fight without it being clearly stated/shown and a technique being used without it being mentioned.
Goku starting the fight with the KK may seem strange for him, but as I said, it wouldn't be different than what he did in other fights (and he still could reach KKx20, so it's not as if he was going all out like he did against #19 and Kid Bu).
On the other hand, there are no precedents of Toriyama breaking his writting style and it also never happened again in any other fight.
If Toriyama really wanted the KKx10 invisible on-screen activation, at least Kaito would've told us when it was activated when revealing us that Goku was already using it.
Koitsukai wrote:Also, Kaiosama never said Goku used it from the beginning, so I can't buy that based on assumptions.
In fact, at the very start of the fight, Kaiosama kept commenting Goku's lack of limits and how he can't believe his new power. Hardly a thing you'd say to someone who is "cheating" his way up through KKx10, and happens to be weaker than Piccolo and Gohan.
Kaiosama said Goku was already using it and didn't specify any concrete activation point (nor was that even hinted in any way during the fight).
It being from the beginning the implication of no one can being able to pinpoint the moment where the KKx10 was activated (because there simply wasn't any).
And that concept of cheating doesn't exist in Dragon Ball. When Ginyu completley guessed Goku's real PL and he resorted to the KKx2 to impress him, was this cheating?
Kaito is giving his opinion on Goku as a fighter, and considering that no one else had enough mastering of the Ki to use the KK and Goku was using it at a much higher level than Kaito even envisioned then what he says still stands true.
Goku is the most capable fighter of the z-warriors at that point and the only one able to fight with Freezer, even if it was because of the KK.
Koitsukai wrote:I disagree, Nappa wasn't stronger than Goku. Nothing implied that at all, at best you could say Nappa could give Goku a waku waku fight, but stronger? I don't think so.
When Nappa managed to match 8000+ Goku in overall strength he had already taken a lot of damage, mostly from Goku's first assault.
Nappa had been fighting at a much lower PL the whole time (it's the exact same stiuation than KKx10 Goku, but instead of starting with the power up he started with a hindrance), his offensive cappabilities approximately in the 5000-6000 range (he tanked monstruous -although handicaped- attacks like Ten's kikoho and one-shoted Piccolo with a basic ki blast) but he managed to tank Goku's 8000+ hits without being fatally injured. That alone would put him at the high 7000s PL.
Remember that Raditz (1200, let's say 1100 at that point in the fight) was fatally injured by Gohan's 1307 headbutt (and when I say fatally injured, I mean it).
10-15% PL differences in DB are already almost decisive.
So for Nappa to tank Goku's 8000+ hits, it meant it's defenses were that of a 7800-8100 fighter even prior to calming himself.
Then, after calming down, his offensive capabilities grew enough to match Goku's (which is a balanced fighter) which coupled whith his high sturdiness (he tanked the KameHameHa like nothing) put him above Goku in terms of PL (Goku still had the KK so that fight would've always gone for him, of course).
So a calmed down, 100% fresh Nappa would be even stronger.
Toriyama did that a lot of times. A18 vs SSJ Vegeta is another example. A18 trounced SSJ Vegeta despite them being equal at strength.
He writted hype scenes for the characters, but he knew how to do so without completely breaking the power scales and feel as cheap as the majority of other shounen are.
Koitsukai wrote:And Gohan can't be stronger than Goku on Namek, his rage can do so much but can't challenge Vegeta, who admits Goku must be the SS from the legend. Vegeta acknowledges Goku's strength and that he can actually kill Freeza, something he wouldn't say if Goku was weaker than the namek, the kid and himself and could only rely on a technique. Vegeta's blind faith in Goku works if Goku starts leagues above all of them AND on top of that he can double or triple his power.
Vegeta acknowledged Goku's strength even when Goku was already much weaker than him (I'm talking of 90.000 PL Goku being admired by a 200.000-300.000 Vegeta during the fight against the Ginyus), but there's a difference between what you (or I) can considere the true power of a character (that is, without any technique to enchance him) and what's considered stronger in the narrative of the series.
In the series "stronger" means "a superior fighter", just that.
Goku was superior to Vegeta (even if it was with the KK) and to anyone else, even if you as a fan may feel that this superiority comming with the KKx10 made Goku a cheater. The thing is that he wasn't by the standards of the series.
Koitsukai wrote:Well, you can only test your strenght once in a fight. Goku kept testing his powers in BoG, in RoF, and in BR:movie.
He tested them in BoG because he was discovering the God realm of powers for the first time and Bills never went for the kill.
In RoF I disagree. He fought in SSJGod form (well, in the movie continuity that would be his augmented base state) against Final Form Freezer because that was enough to beat him, then he turned SSJ Blue but once he saw Golden Freezer's strength he started the fight going all out.
In fact, if you don't like cheating, that's what Goku did during the whole fight:
- He saw that Freezer surpassed him in strength but that his power was rapidly falling, so he started to chit-chat with Freezer to lose time.
- After he told Freezer what was happening confident that he could win, he still avoided the direct fight once he saw Freezer's last remains of power were still high enough.
- He didn't openly confront him until Golden Freezer's power had fallen below his.
That's the complete oposite of testing the waters (at least in the SSJB vs GF part of the fight)!
Regarding the Broly movie, I seriously think that those 2 minutes of Goku being retarded were something completely designed and introduced there by the Toei animation studio.
That was anime-retarded Goku and completely broke the logic of the battle (we saw Brolly progressively going from strong base state, to SSJ, to SSJ2 and finally to SSJGod) because that Broly should have one hit killed any Goku below the God-forms (and he wasn't restraining himself, heck, his whole character revolves around him being unrestrained).
I don't think that scene was on Toriyama's script in any possible way or form.
Koitsukai wrote:He was becoming stronger by the minute in that part of the story, why wouldn't he test himself against the greatest enemy? After coming out of the pod, he can't believe how strong he has gotten, he believes he can do it, after sensing the whole fight with Freeza, that is something a guy that is stronger than what he sensed would say. If he was the weakest one, he wouldn't be so full of himself, sort of speak.
Goku always took the KK into account when comparing himself with other fighters.
With that logic, 90.000 Goku shouldn't be confident against 120.000 Ginyu, right?
But Goku is not only confident but even fakes a progressive Ki increase with a KK on top of it and tells Ginyu that he can still become stronger.
Goku knew Freezer's strength, he knew he could perfectly increase his KK even further than the KKx10 he constantly used and that was enough to fight Freezer at his best (at least, the best Goku knew).
He could also be confident witht he KKx10 activated because he had margin to increase his strength a lot more in case of need.
That would make sense if Goku were actually so much weaker, but he was not, so going gradually is a possibilty.
When a KK is activated it's always said, and if skeeping one "KKx10" activation would already be very vague, are you telling me that Goku activated the KKx2, KKx3, KKx4 KKx5...until the KKx10 without anyone noticing, no one saying it and it not being shown? 9 invisible on-screen KK activations?
There's no progressive KK, the only thing that could resemble that would be Goku and his KKx2 vs Ginyu, but it was always a KKx2 just with him gradually increasing his Ki.
Koitsukai wrote:Can't agree with this either, Goku was way more injured than Freeza throughout the whole fight. Beating +KKx10 +KKx20, he would've drowned if it wasn't for Piccolo, he could hardly fight after KKx20.
And this is true (Goku was completely weakened after the Genkidama) but then the rage boost happened.
Rage Boosts ignore injuries and completely replenish one's strength as we saw happening to Gohan multiple times.
Look at chapter 325
of the manga (the one where Goku retires from the fight because Freezer's power has fallen too much).
Goku reverted to his base form and was able to fly at full speed and to dodge one of Freezer's kienzans, meaning that his power was replenished.
That's not he case for Freezer, he didn't recover his strength (him losing power is implied just after he comes back from the Genkidama and directly stated in chapter 323) and since he was badly injured the loss of strength had to be considerable.
Koitsukai wrote:Also, the power drop is relative, subjective and never really expanded upon, so talking about them is really your headcanon vs mine.
In the Cell saga we have concrete numbers that allow us to approximate it very well (my 3rd point).
Koitsukai wrote:The manga and anime, aside of crappy filler, are pretty much the same in both media. So whatever applies to the manga applies to the anime, and viceversa. It's not like Saint Seiya, or a movie based on a book.
The anime lacks consistency.
Filler is not just sagas like the other world tournament, it's also scenes like Goku surprising 50% Freezer after the KKx20 and without a just because Freezer is beating him and he remembers his friends.
And when it's not filler it's badly adapted scenes like suddenly drawing the KKx10 aura on Goku when Kaito tells us he is using it (it was never drawn in the manga, it should have never been in the anime).
I'm not saying it's a bad anime (that category is for abominations like Toriko that completely destroy the source material), but it's writting was subpar compared to the manga even when adapting it.
I don't see anything related to the mistranslation in that link.
Koitsukai wrote:My main problem with this is that Goku wouldn't have fought Freeza on his own if he actually was the weakest one of the gang and KK was the only way out. They would've teammed up with Goku using KK.
They didn't team up with Goku because they could do nothing except for disturbing him.
It doesn't matter if Goku was using the KKx10 or not, they were too weak to fight Freezer and Goku wasn't.
Lastly, the KKx10 wasn't any kind of "last resort" for Goku. It was a state he could fight for very prolongued periods of time and he still had margin to increase his strength even more through higher levels of KK.
Koitsukai wrote:He wouldn't have mind it, he did it vs Raditz. Piccolo even says they should get out because they would only be hindering him.
Piccolo was as strong as Goku in that fight, he helped because he could be of help.
In this fight they could be killed without even noticing it (Piccolo was only able to see flashes of light when Freezer fired his weak death beams, and Gohan & Krillin not even that) while Goku was able to fight.
"Helping" Goku would've only meant that Goku would've had to constantly worry for them and Freezer could have taken advantage of this. Goku being better fighting on his own is as valid with or without the KK.
It would've been stated from the beginning without a doubt Goku couldn't do a thing without KK, but it is implied Goku is on another level now. Why wouldn't Krilin comment that Goku is using Kaioken from the start?
Why? The intention of Toriyama was clearly to hype Goku and the fight, and you yourself admited that it was a narrative choice from Toriyama to surprise us as the readers.
If Krilin had said that, then the fun would have been spoiled.
Koitsukai wrote:It also would mean his saiya power is no longer a thing, because from Raditz to Vegeta he increased like 20x, and from that to Namek like 10x, and for the final fight... just 3x?
sounds like going against the theme of the saiyapower and Goku for the most important part of the story.
From Raditz to Vegeta he trained in 10x gravity for months, upped his mastery of the Ki (which allowed him to learn the KK and increased his PL) and had a zenkay after dying and having his body restored.
In the travel to Namek, a part from having another training at 100G, he completely abused the Zenkays (he had 4 or 5 senzu at the verge of dying).
So, what seems out of that norm to me is that with just another zenkay and no trainings of any kind he could go from 90,000 to 3,000,000.
90,000 to 300,000+ already seems a very high jump to me (higher than most of the other zenkays we saw in the series, only comparable to Vegeta's last two) but 90,000 to 3,000,000 would be absurdly monstruous, much higher than any other zenkay by a very huge margin.
Furthermore, Goku was a low level saiyan, him being weaker but managing to surpass Vegeta thanks to being a better fighter fits more the narrative than suddenly having an exagerated power up because he's the protagonist.
[quot=Koitsukaie]and contradicts his friends and Kaiosama being in awe. [/quote]
Everyone was in awe because he was able to fight Freezer fairly well.
Koitsukaie wrote:We have to consider the S-cells too. With a base of 300,000 he would never have been the first one to have more of those and go SS.
??? Toriyama said in that interview that the S-Cells are also more prominent in kind-hearted saiyans, which was the case for Goku.
In any way, I don't see how it contradicts anything, 300,000 was a much higher PL than un-enraged Gohan and Vegeta had 0% kindness and 0 rage boosts.
In the manga no S-cell explanation was given but in the end it's more or less the same: When a saiyan has a rage boost after having reached a high enough PL, they turn into SSJ.
Koitsukaie wrote:Vegeta and Gohan should've done it first.
Both of them lacked one of the crucial aspects for turning into a SSJ.
Vegeta had no kidness and Gohan wasn't strong enough.
Koitsukaie wrote:KK shouldn't give him more S-Cells (Vegeta went SS with a base weaker than Goku at KKx20), because when he goes SS he is just in his weakened base that has to be stronger than Vegeta's and Gohan's, otherwise it would've been the first SS bargain sale.
He was stronger than Gohan and weaker than Vegeta, but Vegeta didn't have any rage boost to turn into a SSJ.
Koitsukaie wrote:You seem pretty convinced of your POV, so I don't think we'll see eye to eye on this one, huh? and I take from calling him Kaito that you are from Spain, so I feel I should wish you guys all the best on this awful times, so I'll double the regards!.
Hahaha you can bet I am very convinced of it (although I always accept it if I'm proven wrong) and thank you very much for your kind words.
It's always a pleasure to have such good Dragon Ball debates (even if we end up not agreeing with each other, this is a diverse world thankfully) and it helps me evade from such hard times.