Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:53 pm

LightBing wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:21 pm

Unfortunately I can't find my old power level list, I can still share the thought process.

For the Androids, I use the logic you mentioned in the previous post. Yamcha was a good source of energy, they even thought he was Goku. So get your Yamcha number(or around that), multiply it by 4 - since they are aware of Kaioken x4 -, finally add enough that would make defeating such opponent easy-peasy(25% gap for me usually works).

I remember having them as extremely weak, below 50% SSJ Goku.

Piccolo I really don't remember, tendency for stronger than weaker. He trained for 3 years with a SSJ, he got most of the benefits while Goku not so much.
I'd say that's mostly a low end estimative since Gero said SSJ was a power up beyond what he calculated when he first saw it, but it was still within a level they could handle. So Androids >> SSJ (Gero's initial calculations) >/>> Expected Kaio-Ken Goku.

Yamcha also might be way more than 4 times weaker than Base Goku, who could only budge #20, but it's a good ground to start. I'd need to settle on how strong Yamcha is first though... Keep going back and forth between having him dozens of times below Base Goku or at over 50% of his power. Do you think this implies at least Tenshinhan is close to Base Goku due to their reaction time?
What bothers me the most with these Androids are their absorptions. 19 absorbs a full power Kamehameha from a SSJ and is still really weak. Granted it was a sick Super Saiyan, but I doubt it reaches the level of Piccolo or even Dr Gero.
There's an interaction with Goku in the wait for the Cell Games and his efforts against the Cell Jrs that formulate my number. Would need to revisit both, I just remember making him pretty darn strong jsomewhat below Vegeta and Trunks.
The conversation doesn't mean anything. Piccolo knew he was weak and Goku agreed, but some fanslations have him asking Goku how he compares to Cell. The fight happened mostly off screen, and I don't think Piccolo standing can really mean anything.
Pretty sure they never get to 7 digits in my old numbers. The story pretty much tells us Base reached it's top in Namek, exponential growth, zenkais and finally evolution into SSJ, further increase would be slow.
7 digits are the 1 million - 10 million place, so those must be some really old numbers...
Yes, for me it's the intention of mastering SSJ. It's the intention of Toriyama. Let me throw a quote at you:

Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P7.2-7
Tenshinhan: “…Hey, Goku and Gohan were Super Saiyans just now, right? But even so, they were very…how do I say this?...Natural-feeling…”
Piccolo: “…I think there’s no doubt that they were Super Saiyans…However, they’ve trained so that they can exist in that state at an ordinary, everyday level…”
Trunks: “S-so then…When they fight, they’ll [perform] an ev-even more tremendous transformation…!”
Vegeta: “Are you an idiot?...You don’t seem to think things over…They’ve judged that state as the best! If they get used to that as a matter of habit, then even if they raise their battle power, the strain on their body is very small! [ ] They’ve thought this through…”


Vegeta talks about raising their power level. Before you had Base times whatever multiplier SSJ gives. Since base form reached it's plateau, Goku and Vegeta had use their brain since brute force wouldn't do it, it also presented an interesting plot point in the story.

Vegeta "ascends" going for the grades which give better multipliers with consequences.
Goku masters SSJ to the point he can control it's power totally.
A mastered SSJ can now raise his power beyond the multiplier and below it. It's detached from the Base form because it is a new Base Form.

Regarding SSJ2 and SSJ3, the latter clearly looks like a grade. SSJ2 was never said to have any weakness, but Trunks masters it in the Super manga. At the same time Gotenks just ignores it in the Boo Arc. Plus like Koitsukai wrote above Toriyama himself says SSJ2 and SSJ3 are power up variations.

Of course the context was right after BoG and Super loved to use SSJ2 and SSJ3 but all material with more direct input by Toriyama goes the Base - SSJ - SSB route with the Broly movie being the latest.
Yes, I agree completely. Goku was aiming to achieve the power Vegeta and Trunks had without deforming his body and worsening his stamina. I'd say that's the point of any power up past the Namek Saga since regular training and zenkais weren't doing the job anymore (Maybe the gains those yielded were closer to addition?), transformations and fusions alike.

The first time ever SSJ forms were named and numbered, SSJ2 was actually called "Super Saiyan Grade 5", so it does seem like it's on the same branch as the bulky forms. Stuff after this like Daizenshuus 7 and 10 seem to place it in it's own branch though with SSJ3 though. I don't think any of them are grades, though SSJ3 certainly appears like an anomaly.
Nice, I'll be doing a new list as well since I'm re-reading the manga soon. Have you ever done Pre-Raditz numbers? Feels like very few people give it a go.
Yes, but when I do lists it's more like power scaling than power levels, with completely made up numbers. Battle Powers are a measure of Ki and that wasn't the main focus of their power back then. I have considered making a more experimental list listing Ki followed by other stats like power and speed, but I never really started it.
Koitsukai wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:11 pm
If I'm not mistaken, Toriyama in an interview said that every SS form is an improvement of the original SS, and that Goku could end up mastering regular SS, dropping the need of accessing the stronger forms. But that goes out the window in the manga where Goku and Vegeta use SS2. In the Broly movie they seem to use just SS, though.
Well he did say that, but even if it gets contradicted it might still be a possibilty, simply one Goku and Vegeta haven't followed or fully mastered yet.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:38 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:53 pm
Yamcha also might be way more than 4 times weaker than Base Goku, who could only budge #20, but it's a good ground to start. I'd need to settle on how strong Yamcha is first though... Keep going back and forth between having him dozens of times below Base Goku or at over 50% of his power. Do you think this implies at least Tenshinhan is close to Base Goku due to their reaction time?
I wouldn't put the humans dozes of times below the Base Saiyans. My main argument is that they always caught up to Goku. He was ahead, humans do the same training and catch up to him.
Although Namek had crazy spikes due too zenkais, I think the gap isn't huge. I remember having humans in the million(s).

Tenshinhan's dodging there kinda follows this line. More significantly are the lines about how their energy is useful, they can't be complete weaklings if their power combined plus Piccolo(hiding his power) matter against SSJ Vegeta.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:53 pm
What bothers me the most with these Androids are their absorptions. 19 absorbs a full power Kamehameha from a SSJ and is still really weak. Granted it was a sick Super Saiyan, but I doubt it reaches the level of Piccolo or even Dr Gero.
Attacks are always kinda weird, likewise for the absorption of the Androids. If they can instantly absorb a Kamehameha, shouldn't a few seconds with Vegeta be a huge drain? It's one of those inconsistent things.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:53 pm
The conversation doesn't mean anything. Piccolo knew he was weak and Goku agreed, but some fanslations have him asking Goku how he compares to Cell. The fight happened mostly off screen, and I don't think Piccolo standing can really mean anything.
I would only dispute people who put him in the Semi-Perfect Cell range. When Toriyama has a character being given the "risen to a completely new level" line it means something. To me that's enough to put him up there.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:53 pm
7 digits are the 1 million - 10 million place, so those must be some really old numbers...
I meant they don't above those but are in the range. My mistake.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:53 pm
Yes, but when I do lists it's more like power scaling than power levels, with completely made up numbers. Battle Powers are a measure of Ki and that wasn't the main focus of their power back then. I have considered making a more experimental list listing Ki followed by other stats like power and speed, but I never really started it.
That's what makes early Dragon Ball the most fun period to draw up power levels.
I use power levels as intended, measurement of Ki but always take note of other factors, that's why Goku has a lower number than people he defeat a bunch of times.
It also makes one realize how coherent Toriyama's numbers are besides people saying he just made them up.
He gave us the Farmer's power level as scale because, in my oppinion, he actually thought about. The only character that comes out wrong is Tenshinhan when I have to assume he had zero gains in the period anterior to Raditz.
Maybe I can find a way to work in my new list.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:53 pm
Well he did say that, but even if it gets contradicted it might still be a possibilty, simply one Goku and Vegeta haven't followed or fully mastered yet.
With Super it honestly doesn't matter much because God Tier dwarfs Super Saiyan. The characters have no need to master SSJ anymore, a significant part of the manga's plot is them mastering SS Blue and now Ultra Instinct.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:12 pm

LightBing wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:38 pm
I wouldn't put the humans dozes of times below the Base Saiyans. My main argument is that they always caught up to Goku. He was ahead, humans do the same training and catch up to him.
Although Namek had crazy spikes due too zenkais, I think the gap isn't huge. I remember having humans in the million(s).

Tenshinhan's dodging there kinda follows this line. More significantly are the lines about how their energy is useful, they can't be complete weaklings if their power combined plus Piccolo(hiding his power) matter against SSJ Vegeta.
The gap certainly should be huge. The last official numbers we got had Goku (3 million) 40x stronger than Kuririn (75k), and after the potential unlock was complete it's unlikely Kuririn could've gotten much stronger if at all. The humans always get more gains than Goku with the same training, but unless you think they got nearly a thousand times stronger during their time at Kaio, they can't possibly be in the millions. These are the placements I like to give them:

Kuririn: 150,000
Tenshinhan: 90,000
Yamcha: 60,000

Or at lowest:
Kuririn: 75,000
Tenshinhan: 35,000
Yamcha: 6,000 (Much lower than the others since he was dead for less time than even Goku)

Gero was mostly expecting to fight Saiyan Saga characters and was getting by absorbing average people, so Namek level powers would certainly be an increase. Gero might even be piss weak if he was really expecting Goku to be stuck on Saiyan Saga levels.
Attacks are always kinda weird, likewise for the absorption of the Androids. If they can instantly absorb a Kamehameha, shouldn't a few seconds with Vegeta be a huge drain? It's one of those inconsistent things.
Gero does worry 19 would run out of energy fighting Goku, so the energy 19 was draining from Vegeta might have been used to hold Vegeta on place, nullifying the gains. But yeah, it's probably better to not give much thought into the absorptions; Goku was piss weak when he fired that Kamehameha and so might have been 19 from the prior beating.
I would only dispute people who put him in the Semi-Perfect Cell range. When Toriyama has a character being given the "risen to a completely new level" line it means something. To me that's enough to put him up there.
Even No. 16/Imperfect Cell are a completely new level, I find the Semi Perfect Cell/Super Vegeta placement I give him to be pretty generous stuff.
That's what makes early Dragon Ball the most fun period to draw up power levels.
I use power levels as intended, measurement of Ki but always take note of other factors, that's why Goku has a lower number than people he defeat a bunch of times.
It also makes one realize how coherent Toriyama's numbers are besides people saying he just made them up.
He gave us the Farmer's power level as scale because, in my oppinion, he actually thought about. The only character that comes out wrong is Tenshinhan when I have to assume he had zero gains in the period anterior to Raditz.
Maybe I can find a way to work in my new list.
But how can you measure Ki when it's not even being used most of the time? Toriyama has said in interview that there's a difference between physical strenght and Ki and the SEG says the same thing.

Since you acknowledge the gap between Ki and effective power, do you use this as a mean to include the guidebook levels in the lists? Stuff like 22nd Budokai Goku at 180 or Choushinsui Goku at 260.

I can't possibly see. The Farmer is a mere 5, but then Master Roshi is up there with the humans in the 100s? Goku jumps from 10 to 100+ fairly easily throuhgout the first half of the original series, but for the more bloated Piccolo arcs he can barely get to 400?
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:36 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:12 pm
The gap certainly should be huge. The last official numbers we got had Goku (3 million) 40x stronger than Kuririn (75k), and after the potential unlock was complete it's unlikely Kuririn could've gotten much stronger if at all. The humans always get more gains than Goku with the same training, but unless you think they got nearly a thousand times stronger during their time at Kaio, they can't possibly be in the millions.

Gero was mostly expecting to fight Saiyan Saga characters and was getting by absorbing average people, so Namek level powers would certainly be an increase. Gero might even be piss weak if he was really expecting Goku to be stuck on Saiyan Saga levels.
I only use numbers from the manga. That Kuririn number is specially doubtful. It grabs Vegeta's line of them:(Vegeta, Gohan and Kuririn) having a chance against First Form Freeza and based on the 530.000 of the later it does a simply sum.
Add the numbers of the three warriors and it's 525.000... However made up these numbers clearly has no idea on logic of the material regarding battles.

This to say that Kuririn is already at 100k plus at the time and as Vegeta states, his power is still raising, probably due too the potential unlock.

Of course after Namek it's really hard to pinpoint the human numbers, before my current assessment I actually had numbers really similar to yours.

While Gero was assuming much weaker opposition, that was at the start. Quickly he got smart and ran away, eventually thinking of this plan to defeat Vegeta:

Chapter: 345 (DBZ 151), P14.7
Context: after seeing that Gohan, Tenshinhan, Piccolo, and Kuririn had followed him
No.20: “If I collect their energy and add it to my own, I’ll be able to win against Vegeta!”


Now this line made me change my perspective. Because this is suppressed Piccolo. Kuririn and Tenshinhan have to be in the million range at the very least to matter here.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:12 pm
But how can you measure Ki when it's not even being used most of the time? Toriyama has said in interview that there's a difference between physical strenght and Ki and the SEG says the same thing.

Since you acknowledge the gap between Ki and effective power, do you use this as a mean to include the guidebook levels in the lists? Stuff like 22nd Budokai Goku at 180 or Choushinsui Goku at 260.

I can't possibly see. The Farmer is a mere 5, but then Master Roshi is up there with the humans in the 100s? Goku jumps from 10 to 100+ fairly easily throuhgout the first half of the original series, but for the more bloated Piccolo arcs he can barely get to 400?
I don't include the guidebooks, like I wrote above the guides range from flat out wrong to flawed. They aren't a good assessment. I'm more inclined to trust numbers from let's say you, who read the material more attentively and is more in-tuned to the narrative of battle in Dragon Ball than a random employee at Shueisha who maybe didn't even read the whole manga once.

I'll probably start doing the numbers soon. Easier to discuss then, if you feel inclined. Although early numbers requires reading various arcs ahead, there's a lot of posterior information relevant to previous arcs.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by PowerLevel Science » Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:12 am

Dragon Ball Power Levels (1984 - 2021):

JAN - MAY 2021 UPDATE:


Image

Studied by user Power Level Science since 2007.

Not fully completed yet - In progress
Hello, everybody. I'm a programmer and a scientist. I've been a fan of Doragon Boru since 1998. Today I'm going to show you my ultimate power level list.

Please, be kind and free. Show me your opinions.

Code: Select all

<br>
Multiplies & Misc:

Oozharu = base x10 (Low Divine [natural] Saiyan Aura)
Kaioken = base xN
SSJ = base x50
SSJ2 = base x100 = SSJ x 2
SSJ3 = base x400 = SSJ2 x 4
Potara (base) = A + B xC = SSJ3
Potara SSJ = A + B xC x50 = SSJ3 x 50
SSG = SSJ3 Potara = Base x 5E6
SSB = SSG x 50
UI = base x 1E14 (High Divine Saiyan Aura)

Masses: (Please, note no volume nor density; mass is proportional to c=speed of light via relativity Law)

Moon = 7.347 x 10^22 kg = ~139
Earth = 5.972 x 10^24 kg = >18,000
Sun = 1.989 x 10^30 kg

Real & DB Universe:

Milky Way = 2.5*10^11 stars
Four Galaxies = 0.5 x 10^13 stars (each) Hypotetical
Stars in DB = 2 x 10^13 Hypotetical
Multiple Solar Systems = 1.989 x 10^30 kg x 5

Misc:

( ) means technique
[ ] means transformation
UI means ultra instint
SP means spirit
HA means Hakai Aura

Code: Select all

<br>
I - EMPEROR PILAF SAGA:
_

II - TAO PAI PAI ARC:
-

III - PICCOLO DAIMAO SAGA:
-

IV - SAIYAN ARRIVAL ARC:
-

V - VEGETA ARC:
-

VI - NAMEK ARC:
-

VII - EMPEROR FREEZER ARC:
-

VIII - TRUNKS ARC:
-

IX - CELL ARC:
-

X - ORIGINAL FINAL SAGA:
-

XI - RESURRECTION OF F FILM:
-

XII - DARK KAIOSHIN ARC:
-

XIII - TOURNAMENT OF POWER ARC:
-

XIV - BROLI FILM:
-

XV - GINGA PATORORU ARC:
-

XVI - GRANOLA ARC:
-

XVII - EPILOGUE - ABOVE THE GODS:
XVIII - EPILOGUE II - TOP 20 (MAY 2021):
-

I hope you like it.
Programmer, scientist, writer and journalist. English is not my first language.

Ultimate power levels list (2007 - 2021):

Power levels studied since 2007.

Chronology: coming soon.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:56 pm

LightBing wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:36 pm
I only use numbers from the manga. That Kuririn number is specially doubtful. It grabs Vegeta's line of them:(Vegeta, Gohan and Kuririn) having a chance against First Form Freeza and based on the 530.000 of the later it does a simply sum.
Add the numbers of the three warriors and it's 525.000... However made up these numbers clearly has no idea on logic of the material regarding battles.

This to say that Kuririn is already at 100k plus at the time and as Vegeta states, his power is still raising, probably due too the potential unlock.

Of course after Namek it's really hard to pinpoint the human numbers, before my current assessment I actually had numbers really similar to yours.

While Gero was assuming much weaker opposition, that was at the start. Quickly he got smart and ran away, eventually thinking of this plan to defeat Vegeta:

Chapter: 345 (DBZ 151), P14.7
Context: after seeing that Gohan, Tenshinhan, Piccolo, and Kuririn had followed him
No.20: “If I collect their energy and add it to my own, I’ll be able to win against Vegeta!”


Now this line made me change my perspective. Because this is suppressed Piccolo. Kuririn and Tenshinhan have to be in the million range at the very least to matter here.
The thing is, that number is really the only evidence there is to place him above Recoome. I think that's a very flimsy reason to discart those numbers, specially when nowhere in the magazine it brings up addition. The only really doubtful number there is Vegeta's.

I don't think there should be any considerable growth for the humans between leaving Namek/Kaio's and fighting the Androids. If Goku can't get that much stronger before going in the Rosat, why would it be any different for the humans?

Gero finding their energy worth it is a good point. It's doubtful he could indeed turn the tides, but their powers should at least boost him considerably if he think it's for sure. It could also point to 20 and 19 being absurdly weak though...
I don't include the guidebooks, like I wrote above the guides range from flat out wrong to flawed. They aren't a good assessment. I'm more inclined to trust numbers from let's say you, who read the material more attentively and is more in-tuned to the narrative of battle in Dragon Ball than a random employee at Shueisha who maybe didn't even read the whole manga once.

I'll probably start doing the numbers soon. Easier to discuss then, if you feel inclined. Although early numbers requires reading various arcs ahead, there's a lot of posterior information relevant to previous arcs.
It's just so confusing. I put a lot of thought into this, but I think I'll ignore them for the sake of not overthinking it. I could raise all those points about physical strenght =/= Ki and get all my scans about how fighting ability matters, but if these numbers are meant to represent power they will represent power damnit! I think I'll try my hand again at making some of these too.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:40 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:56 pm
The thing is, that number is really the only evidence there is to place him above Recoome. I think that's a very flimsy reason to discart those numbers, specially when nowhere in the magazine it brings up addition. The only really doubtful number there is Vegeta's.

I don't think there should be any considerable growth for the humans between leaving Namek/Kaio's and fighting the Androids. If Goku can't get that much stronger before going in the Rosat, why would it be any different for the humans?

Gero finding their energy worth it is a good point. It's doubtful he could indeed turn the tides, but their powers should at least boost him considerably if he think it's for sure. It could also point to 20 and 19 being absurdly weak though...
He was already at above 23.000 against Ginyu-Goku, later Vegeta continues saying he's getting stronger(even if he put more weight into Gohan) and worth is something in a trifecta versus 530.000 Freeza.
Kuririn continues to perform against stronger forms of Freeza and lastly him and Gohan are able to provide enough energy to Piccolo to deal a distracting - and damaging - blow to Final Form Freeza.
These are all from memory, maybe there's more stuff there. I can't agree there isn't evidence he's massively stronger.

Toriyama created a problem by making Freeza too powerful, so he just speed run everyone's development in Namek:
Goku had zenkais and training.
Vegeta had zenkais and constant combat.
Gohan had zenkais, rage boosts, potential unlock and combat.
Piccolo had Kaio training(one of the more silly increases in Dragon Ball for me) and fusion with Nail.
Kuririn had potential unlock and combat.

Why leave out Kuririn from this group of people getting narrative induced power up?
Toriyama kinda explained them but we all know it's all for the plot. Yeah Kuririn is a human but there's no reason to all of a sudden bring him that much down from people who, for all of Dragon Ball until that point, he wasn't that far off.

Regarding the magazine numbers, I'm just assuming the logic used based on the proximity of the number with Freeza's own and the statement which revolves around it, seems like too much of a coincidence. It's rather logic, except if the person had read Dragon Ball.
I can safely say these numbers are blatantly wrong because they ignore one of Toriyama tropes, which he uses for all of Dragon Ball: the 50%/ this is only half my power line.
In that trope Vegeta would be crapping his pants due to the power difference.

The blunt of the humans power up should be before, during the 3 years is just to spread it out a bit. I like to think they get a bit more by applying Kaio's training during that time for better results.

The weaker #20 is the stronger the humans get since he needs their power to defeat SSJ Vegeta.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sun Jan 24, 2021 10:54 pm

LightBing wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:40 pm
He was already at above 23.000 against Ginyu-Goku, later Vegeta continues saying he's getting stronger(even if he put more weight into Gohan) and worth is something in a trifecta versus 530.000 Freeza.
Kuririn continues to perform against stronger forms of Freeza and lastly him and Gohan are able to provide enough energy to Piccolo to deal a distracting - and damaging - blow to Final Form Freeza.
These are all from memory, maybe there's more stuff there. I can't agree there isn't evidence he's massively stronger.

Toriyama created a problem by making Freeza too powerful, so he just speed run everyone's development in Namek:
Goku had zenkais and training.
Vegeta had zenkais and constant combat.
Gohan had zenkais, rage boosts, potential unlock and combat.
Piccolo had Kaio training(one of the more silly increases in Dragon Ball for me) and fusion with Nail.
Kuririn had potential unlock and combat.

Why leave out Kuririn from this group of people getting narrative induced power up?
Toriyama kinda explained them but we all know it's all for the plot. Yeah Kuririn is a human but there's no reason to all of a sudden bring him that much down from people who, for all of Dragon Ball until that point, he wasn't that far off.

Regarding the magazine numbers, I'm just assuming the logic used based on the proximity of the number with Freeza's own and the statement which revolves around it, seems like too much of a coincidence. It's rather logic, except if the person had read Dragon Ball.
I can safely say these numbers are blatantly wrong because they ignore one of Toriyama tropes, which he uses for all of Dragon Ball: the 50%/ this is only half my power line.
In that trope Vegeta would be crapping his pants due to the power difference.

The blunt of the humans power up should be before, during the 3 years is just to spread it out a bit. I like to think they get a bit more by applying Kaio's training during that time for better results.

The weaker #20 is the stronger the humans get since he needs their power to defeat SSJ Vegeta.
Well he certainly kept growing stronger in Namek, but by how much? He’s by default the weakest of the group and has the least feats of them. He never even gets to face Freeza 1 on 1, the closest to that being his outrunning 2nd form Freeza in anime filler.

Vegeta’s statement may also be about how Kuririn has been getting stronger the past few days, not that it’s growing right now. He told Jeice the same thing about his power rising when talking about his Zenkais.

Even if we take the high end estimative and assume he’s not too far behind Gohan’s calm state, that’s just for him. He’s the strongest human and Yamcha and Tien have nothing to place them near Kuririn.

I’m still not buying it. V-Jump might be wrong because maybe the logic behind it was faulty. It’s just a coincidence at best, and what really matters is whether or not the figures fit. Vegeta being 250k is clearly bull for reasons you said and more, but what about Kuririn’s 75k?

Another problem with Gero’s estimations is that nobody is fighting, everyone is suppressed. Piccolo compared their powers to “nothing” and Goku walks around with 5,000 BP. Does he know what powers he’s absorbing, or is he estimating based on prior data? Or does he think a bunch of ~5k powers are saving him vs Vegeta?
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Mireya » Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:53 am

Do you guys see the tanks feats in the Cell saga as clues for your power gaps? I think we can trace down similarities in some tanks -- Semi Perfect Cell vs #16 and Perfect Cell (fooling around) vs Super Vegeta lead the first most impressive tanks, while Vegeta vs Semi Perfect Cell and Vegeta vs #19 seem somewhat similar... SSJ2 Gohan vs Kanzentai Cell fits in the middle. I think they can be a good baseline, as in they're purely demonstrative of one's physical superiority to the other... while fights can fly a little more due to more interpretation needed and skills playing a factor as well.

Freeza vs Nail is the most impressive one I can think... Freeza didn't even budge, while even the most impressive ones in the Cell saga had the character budging a little. Freeza vs Nail was more than 10x.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:59 am

Mireya wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:53 am
Do you guys see the tanks feats in the Cell saga as clues for your power gaps? I think we can trace down similarities in some tanks -- Semi Perfect Cell vs #16 and Perfect Cell (fooling around) vs Super Vegeta lead the first most impressive tanks, while Vegeta vs Semi Perfect Cell and Vegeta vs #19 seem somewhat similar... SSJ2 Gohan vs Kanzentai Cell fits in the middle. I think they can be a good baseline, as in they're purely demonstrative of one's physical superiority to the other... while fights can fly a little more due to more interpretation needed and skills playing a factor as well.

Freeza vs Nail is the most impressive one I can think... Freeza didn't even budge, while even the most impressive ones in the Cell saga had the character budging a little. Freeza vs Nail was more than 10x.
I was always look at the Namek arc for gaps. Vegeta was able to one shot Cui with a 25% difference and later Dodoria with even less than that (likely less than a 20% difference). Mind state plays into Ki as we know it's one of the three components that make up Ki, so it's something to take into account as well: a cowardly fighter will always be defeated more easily than a determined, brave fighter, even if the former's traditional battle power is higher.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:48 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
Sun Jan 24, 2021 10:54 pm
Well he certainly kept growing stronger in Namek, but by how much? He’s by default the weakest of the group and has the least feats of them. He never even gets to face Freeza 1 on 1, the closest to that being his outrunning 2nd form Freeza in anime filler.

Vegeta’s statement may also be about how Kuririn has been getting stronger the past few days, not that it’s growing right now. He told Jeice the same thing about his power rising when talking about his Zenkais.

Even if we take the high end estimative and assume he’s not too far behind Gohan’s calm state, that’s just for him. He’s the strongest human and Yamcha and Tien have nothing to place them near Kuririn.

I’m still not buying it. V-Jump might be wrong because maybe the logic behind it was faulty. It’s just a coincidence at best, and what really matters is whether or not the figures fit. Vegeta being 250k is clearly bull for reasons you said and more, but what about Kuririn’s 75k?

Another problem with Gero’s estimations is that nobody is fighting, everyone is suppressed. Piccolo compared their powers to “nothing” and Goku walks around with 5,000 BP. Does he know what powers he’s absorbing, or is he estimating based on prior data? Or does he think a bunch of ~5k powers are saving him vs Vegeta?
Don't really remember where I put him around that time but certainly a good margin behind Gohan and Piccolo by the end of it. Still darn strong tho.

Kuririn at 75K would be irrelevant against Freeza even Vegeta at 250k would be, like I justified before. Even if we assume Vegeta is thinking about Kuririn in regards to treachery and techniques. He still mentions power and there's the whole context of everyone getting stronger.
We have to choose one scenario that's unrealistic. Kuririn getting dumb strong, like everyone has been getting, or characters acting out-of-character.

Regarding Tenshinhan and Yamcha, there's Kaio training for the bigger chunk. If Piccolo got above Nail in like a month(?) of Kaio training something like a 1000% increase, why can't the humans get relevant gains in more time with the extra boost of having sparring partners?

Let me reiterate, most Namek gains are dumb. Like only SSJ and Gohan because of the whole broken hybrid prodigy receive a pass.
I'm only bring the humans up to speed on the train. Kuririn get's ahead of them this arc but not by that much.

Piccolo only said they had no chance against Gero, which is true.
Gero absorbed Yamcha before he should have a pretty good idea. I think Gero is incompetent but that's assuming a degree of delusion.
I don't take him at face value but there's a base that has to be true and such one put's the humans in the millions.
Mireya wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:53 am
Do you guys see the tanks feats in the Cell saga as clues for your power gaps? I think we can trace down similarities in some tanks -- Semi Perfect Cell vs #16 and Perfect Cell (fooling around) vs Super Vegeta lead the first most impressive tanks, while Vegeta vs Semi Perfect Cell and Vegeta vs #19 seem somewhat similar... SSJ2 Gohan vs Kanzentai Cell fits in the middle. I think they can be a good baseline, as in they're purely demonstrative of one's physical superiority to the other... while fights can fly a little more due to more interpretation needed and skills playing a factor as well.

Freeza vs Nail is the most impressive one I can think... Freeza didn't even budge, while even the most impressive ones in the Cell saga had the character budging a little. Freeza vs Nail was more than 10x.
This is a good indicator based on fight's in the manga where the difference is know.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Locutus » Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:15 am

Has anyone ever used Gokus gains from his training with King Kai in Saiyan saga as a basis for power levels? I remember I did this years ago and I got readings that I felt were pretty fitting for their respective sagas. I obviously don't remember them anymore, but iirc ssj3 Goku by the time of the Buu saga had a PL a bit over 1.5 quadrillion.

The only wrench in this thought process is King Kai stating that training on his planet is like training iirc 8000 years on earth, take that literally and yeah, gains woukd be ridiculously small.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed Jan 27, 2021 8:55 pm

Locutus wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:15 am
Has anyone ever used Gokus gains from his training with King Kai in Saiyan saga as a basis for power levels? I remember I did this years ago and I got readings that I felt were pretty fitting for their respective sagas. I obviously don't remember them anymore, but iirc ssj3 Goku by the time of the Buu saga had a PL a bit over 1.5 quadrillion.

The only wrench in this thought process is King Kai stating that training on his planet is like training iirc 8000 years on earth, take that literally and yeah, gains woukd be ridiculously small.
Not really. Different training regiments yield different power ups. Kaio’s statement suggests training on Earth alone is a small power up, and Goku’s power ups post Namek were more focused on new transformations rather than training his body with masters.
Mireya wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 2:53 am
Do you guys see the tanks feats in the Cell saga as clues for your power gaps? I think we can trace down similarities in some tanks -- Semi Perfect Cell vs #16 and Perfect Cell (fooling around) vs Super Vegeta lead the first most impressive tanks, while Vegeta vs Semi Perfect Cell and Vegeta vs #19 seem somewhat similar... SSJ2 Gohan vs Kanzentai Cell fits in the middle. I think they can be a good baseline, as in they're purely demonstrative of one's physical superiority to the other... while fights can fly a little more due to more interpretation needed and skills playing a factor as well.

Freeza vs Nail is the most impressive one I can think... Freeza didn't even budge, while even the most impressive ones in the Cell saga had the character budging a little. Freeza vs Nail was more than 10x.
Yes, but only loosely so. How much a body moves depends a lot on how focused the receiver was - that’s why sneak attacks deal so much damage. So in some cases the fighters might have been putting up more of a defense than others.
LightBing wrote:
Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:48 am
Don't really remember where I put him around that time but certainly a good margin behind Gohan and Piccolo by the end of it. Still darn strong tho.

Kuririn at 75K would be irrelevant against Freeza even Vegeta at 250k would be, like I justified before. Even if we assume Vegeta is thinking about Kuririn in regards to treachery and techniques. He still mentions power and there's the whole context of everyone getting stronger.
We have to choose one scenario that's unrealistic. Kuririn getting dumb strong, like everyone has been getting, or characters acting out-of-character.

Regarding Tenshinhan and Yamcha, there's Kaio training for the bigger chunk. If Piccolo got above Nail in like a month(?) of Kaio training something like a 1000% increase, why can't the humans get relevant gains in more time with the extra boost of having sparring partners?

Let me reiterate, most Namek gains are dumb. Like only SSJ and Gohan because of the whole broken hybrid prodigy receive a pass.
I'm only bring the humans up to speed on the train. Kuririn get's ahead of them this arc but not by that much.

Piccolo only said they had no chance against Gero, which is true.
Gero absorbed Yamcha before he should have a pretty good idea. I think Gero is incompetent but that's assuming a degree of delusion.
I don't take him at face value but there's a base that has to be true and such one put's the humans in the millions.
What help Kuririn can offer has nothing to do with his power though. He held his own with 2nd form Freeza thanks to the Kienzan. He also helps a lot against Freeza.

Piccolo was there for a week, not a month. He seemingly did at least reach Nail’s level given the later’s reaction to his Ki though. But even then he still needed fusion to reach the millions. The Legend of the Manga guidebook even says specifically says Piccolo got 5x stronger by merging with Nail, so Piccolo was +200k. Since they were training together, the gap between Piccolo and the humans shouldn’t enlarge, if anything it shrunk.

There’s also the anime-centric Son Goku Dentetsu saying Piccolo couldn’t catch up to “Goku and co.” without fusion, so maybe Kuririn is also 200k+ range?

Guess I’m convinced about all main humans far surpassing Ginyu, but I’m still not sold with them surpassing million threshold. Even Piccolo needed fusion to get to that level. Sooner or later the diminishing returns would hit the ones training with Kaio, it’s possible they had even already exhausted their gains by the time Piccolo left if they were that strong already.

Do you have any plans on releasing a Z list along with the Part 1 list? I’m curious about your figures, specially after you seemingly dismissed any numbers that aren’t from the manga.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:47 am

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
Wed Jan 27, 2021 8:55 pm
Do you have any plans on releasing a Z list along with the Part 1 list? I’m curious about your figures, specially after you seemingly dismissed any numbers that aren’t from the manga.
Yeah I'll do the whole manga plus extra stuff I consider canon like the Jaco manga.
I don't dismiss numbers outside of the manga, I just need their justification if there's a good argument for such a figure, I'm in.

I'll be posting the numbers here regularly by arc, for input. I should finish the first arc draft by this weekend.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:28 pm

Had the humans surpassed Saiyan arc Vegetta after their training in the Afterlife?
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:14 pm

Noah wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:28 pm
Had the humans surpassed Saiyan arc Vegetta after their training in the Afterlife?
Counting filler, yes. They defeated the Ginyu Force.

Without filler, they probably have surpassed him, too. But we can't really be sure. We only see them "fighting" again after 3 years of training, and the androids mistakenly thought the weakest (Yamcha) was actually Goku. We know humans don't grow as strong as saiyans, Yamcha also trained on his own IIRC, so probably most of their gains came from training with Kaio and not from those 3 years getting ready to fight the androids.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Kaboom » Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:53 pm

Noah wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:28 pm
Had the humans surpassed Saiyan arc Vegeta after their training in the Afterlife?
According to my personal lists (check the sig), which does NOT account for the "Vs Ginyu Force" filler... yes, they did surpass Vegeta's 18k, and comfortably so. Just not nearly as soon or as drastically as the Ginyu Force filler would necessitate.

Kuririn obviously gets shot way up to the 100k range thanks to the Grand Elder, but Tenshinhan and Yamcha still make admirable improvement from training on Kaio's too. Yamcha, in particular, has to be strong enough that Dr. Gero mistakes him Goku with 3 more years of post-Saiyan-invasion training. The only one of the Earthling crew I don't have a post-Kaio's number for is Chaozu, because... well, he never really gave us anything to go by.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Mireya » Sun Feb 14, 2021 11:36 pm

Noah wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:28 pm
Had the humans surpassed Saiyan arc Vegetta after their training in the Afterlife?
Yes. The most conclusive one to have crossed the 18k plateau would be Kuririn, for whom we were assigned a 75k BP from his battle against Freeza.

Tenshinhan and Yamcha are more up in the air... but still, Gero thought that absorbing Yamcha would provide him good energy, and Gero is way up there in the millions... if we assume his absorptions are additive, then Yamcha may be considerably powered up to draw Gero's attention and be a good source of power.

As for Tenshinhan, we also have a subtle evidence, but that works well, which would be him dodging Gero's eye laser in a similar time reaction as base Goku, while this same base Goku could deflect initial true form Freeza's eye beams with his bare hands like nothing... which would place Ten up there in the 3M ballpark imo.

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Yosheets » Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:28 am

I think I already posted my old battle power list on my deactivated account, but anyway...



Saiyajin Transformations:

Oozaru: x10 Base
Super Saiyajin: x50 Base
Ultra Super Saiyajin: x2 Super Saiyajin
Ultra Super Saiyajin 2: x5 Ultra Super Saiyajin
Super Saiyajin 2: x10 Super Saiyajin

Ki Amplification:

Kamehameha: x1.25
Makankosappo: x1.8
Makankosappo (no charge time): x1.25
Scattering Bullet: x1.2
Kikoho: x1.5
Kienzan: x1.75
Masenko: x1.33
Gyarikku Hou: x1.67
Final Crash: x1.4
Gekiretsu Kodan: x3.33
Hell's Flash: x1
Shin Kikoho: x1,000
Final Flash: x5
Super Kamehameha: x6.67


Saiyajin Arc:


Goku:
Initial: 739
Kamehameha: 924
Post Training Initial: 5,000
Post Training Full Power: 8,000
Kaioken x2: 16,000
Kaioken x3: 24,000
Kaioken x3 Kamehameha: 30,000
Kaioken x4: 32,000
Kaioken x4 Kamehameha: 40,000

Gohan:
Initial: 1
Post Training: 1,500
Rage Boost: 2,100
Masenko: 2,800

Piccolo:
Initial: 739
Makankosappo: 1,330
Post Training: 2,000
Makankosappo: 2,500

Krillin:
Initial: 206
Post Training: 1,400
Scattering Bullet: 1,680
Kienzan: 2,450

Tenshinhan:
Initial: 250
Post Training: 1,600
Kikoho: 2,400

Yamcha:
Initial: 177
Post Training: 1,300

Chaozu:
Initial: 155
Post Training: 1,100

Yajirobe:
Initial: 150
Post Training: 1,000

Master Roshi:
Initial: 111
Full Power: 139

Saibamen: 1,200

Raditz: 1,250

Nappa:
Initial: 3,000
Full Power: 7,500

Vegeta:
Initial: 14,000
Full Power: 18,000
Gyarikku Hou: 30,000
Oozaru: 180,000


Freeza Arc:


Goku:
Initial: 8,000
Post Training Initial: 5,000
Post Training Suppressed: 60,000
Post Training Full Power: 90,000
Kaioken x2: 180,000
Post Zenkai: 3,000,000
Kaioken x20: 60,000,000
Kamehameha: 75,000,000
Legendary Super Saiyajin: 150,000,000

Gohan:
Initial: 1,500
Post Guru Power Up Namek Saga: 14,000
Post Guru Power Up Ginyu Saga: 28,000
Post Guru Power Up Freeza Saga: 450,000
Rage Boost: 900,000

Piccolo:
Initial: 2,000
Post Training: 350,000
Post Nail Fusion Initial: 1,300,000
Post Nail Fusion Full Power: 1,500,000

Krillin:
Initial: 1,400
Post Guru Power Up Namek Saga: 13,000
Post Guru Power Up Ginyu Saga: 26,000
Post Guru Power Up Freeza Saga: 400,000
Kienzan: 700,000

Tenshinhan:
Initial: 1,600
Post Training: 300,000

Yamcha:
Initial: 1,300
Post Training: 250,000

Chaozu:
Initial: 1,100
Post Training: 5,000

Nail: 42,000

Cui: 18,000

Dodoria: 20,000

Zarbon:
Suppressed Form: 22,000
True Form: 28,000

Gurudo: 10,000

Reacoom: 40,000

Buhteh: 40,000

Jheese: 40,000

Ginyu:
Initial: 70,000
Full Power: 120,000

Vegeta:
Initial: 24,000
Post Namek Saga Zenkai: 30,000
Final Crash: 42,000
Post Ginyu Saga Zenkai: 500,000
Post Freeza Saga Zenkai: 2,500,000

Freeza:
3rd Suppression Form Initial: 251,500
3rd Suppression Form Full Power: 530,000
2nd Suppression Form Initial: 1,060,000
2nd Suppression Form Powered Up: 1,200,000
2nd Suppression Form Full Power: 1,400,000
3rd Suppression Form: 2,000,000
True Form Initial: 3,000,000
True Form 50%: 60,000,000
True Form 70%: 84,000,000
True Form 100%: 120,000,000


Androids Arc:


Goku:
Initial: 6,000,000
Super Saiyajin: 300,000,000
Post Training Base: 19,500,000
Post Training Super Saiyajin: 975,000,000

Gohan:
Initial: 450,000
Post Training: 17,500,000

Vegeta:
Initial: 2,500,000
Post Training Base: 20,000,000
Post Training Super Saiyajin: 1,000,000,000

Future Trunks:
Initial: 5,400,000
Super Saiyajin: 270,000,000
Post Training Base: 19,000,000
Post Training Super Saiyajin: 950,000,000

Piccolo:
Initial: 1,500,000
Post Training: 900,000,000

Krillin:
Initial: 400,000
Post Training: 15,000,000

Yamcha:
Initial: 250,000
Post Training: 10,000,000

Tenshinhan:
Initial: 300,000
Post Training: 12,500,000

King Cold: 100,000,000

Mecha Freeza:
Initial: 90,000,000
Full Power: 180,000,000

Android #19:
Initial: 400,000,000
Post Absorbtions: 600,000,000

Cyborg #20:
Initial: 450,000,000
Post Absorbtions: 675,000,000

Cyborg #18: 1,400,000,000

Cyborg #17: 1,500,000,000

Android #16: 10,000,000,000



Cell Arc:



Gohan:
Initial: 15,000,000
Post ROSAT Base: 15,000,000,000
Post ROSAT Super Saiyajin: 750,000,000,000
Post ROSAT Super Saiyajin 2: 7,500,000,000,000
Super Kamehameha: 50,000,000,000,000

Goku:
Base: 19,500,000
Super Saiyajin: 975,000,000
Post ROSAT Base: 10,000,000,000
Post ROSAT Super Saiyajin: 500,000,000,000

Vegeta:
Base: 20,000,000
Super Saiyajin: 1,000,000,000
Post First ROSAT Base: 500,000,000
Post First ROSAT Super Saiyajin: 25,000,000,000
Post First ROSAT Ultra Super Saiyajin: 50,000,000,000
Final Flash: 250,000,000,000
Post Second ROSAT Base: 7,500,000,000
Post Second ROSAT Super Saiyajin: 375,000,000,000

Future Trunks:
Base: 19,000,000
Super Saiyajin: 950,000,000
Post First ROSAT Base: 450,000,000
Post First ROSAT Super Saiyan: 22,500,000,000
Post First ROSAT Ultra Super Saiyajin: 45,000,000,000
Post First ROSAT Ultra Super Saiyajin 2: 225,000,000,000
Post Second ROSAT Base: 7,000,000,000
Post Second ROSAT Super Saiyajin: 350,000,000,000

Piccolo:
Initial: 900,000,000
Post God Fusion: 1,500,000,000
Gekiretsu Kodan: 5,000,000,000
Post ROSAT: 300,000,000,000

Tenshinhan:
Initial: 12,500,000
Shin Kikoho: 12,500,000,000

Android #16:
Initial: 10,000,000,000
Hell's Flash: 10,000,000,000

Cell Juniors: 400,000,000,000

Cell:
Imperfect Initial: 1,200,000,000
Imperfect Post Absorbtions: 10,000,000,000
Semi Perfect Initial: 25,000,000,000
Full Power Semi Perfect: 30,000,000,000
Perfect Initial: 45,000,000,000
Perfect Warming Up: 175,000,000,000
Perfect Buffed Up: 250,000,000,000
Perfect Getting Serious: 625,000,000,000
Full Power Perfect: 3,750,000,000,000
Buff Beyond Limits Perfect: 6,250,000,000,000
Super Perfect: 7,000,000,000,000
Super Kamehameha: 46,666,666,666,667

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:38 pm

Noah wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:28 pm
Had the humans surpassed Saiyan arc Vegetta after their training in the Afterlife?
I would say they have at least surpassed the level Goku had against Nappa, but anything more than that seems way too much for me. I assume Yamcha and Tenshinhan may need to team up to beat Vegeta.

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