Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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Blackstripe
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by Blackstripe » Sun Oct 25, 2015 10:08 pm

Noah wrote:So a MAX Power Kamehameha could be enough to defeat Piccolo Daimao?
If he stood there and let it hit him. He wouldn't.

At that point, Roshi's buff form wasn't really viable in combat. King Piccolo would've bifurcated him before he could attempt to do such a thing.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by Speedster » Thu Oct 29, 2015 2:58 am

This is an attempt to mathematically match feats with power levels while also using the Super Exciting Guide training section scaling. The maths is rather elaborate and I may make a video about this theory but here is a simple presentation:

Principle 1

Power level measured by scouter=Power + Ki augmentation

Corollaries:
1. Ordinary humans have a power=5 and Ki=5 BUT they don't augment their power with Ki so the scouter just measures 5.
2. When Radditz arrived, Goku w/o weights had a power level of 416. When he concentrated his Ki he added it to his power so his power level (or rather the power level of the attack) was augmented by that amount. If Goku had a Ki of more than 508 units then his Kamehameha went above 924 as measured by the scouter.

Principle 2:
Each time you increase your power level by about 30% (or more precisely by exp (0.25)) your actual strength (e.g. weight lifting) increases by 2.718x (or more precisely by exp(1)) while your energy output (in Joules) increases by about 7.5x (or more precisely by exp(2)).

Notes:
1. Each time a star is given in the power category in SEG, the Power component of the power level measurement is multiplied by 1.3x. Similarly for the Ki category.
2. Each star is represented by an integer exponent. For example if SEG gives 4 stars increase in KI it means your KI increases by x1.3^4. If it gives 2 stars it means x1.3^2 and etc. However we will do some minor modifications and consider some fractional exponents to smoothen the results.
3. Power can be translated to actual strength like kg or tonnes and total Ki output to energy in Joules but I will explain the method when I have more time.

Principle 3:
Ki augmentation can result even at rest. It depends on the user.

Results for Goku:
0. Human level (for reference): Power=5, Ki=5: Total=10 (theoretical)
1. Start of Dragonball: Power=22(+5.85 stars), Ki=9(+2.5 stars): Total=31
2. Post-Roshi training: Power=64 (+4.33 stars), Ki=17 (+2.5 stars): Total=81
3. Post-Karin training: Power=105 (+2 stars), Ki=29 (+2 stars): Total=134
4. 22nd TB: Power=140 (+1.15 star), Ki=40 (+1.25 stars): Total=180
5. After Ultra Divine Water: Power=159 (+0.5 stars), Ki=108 (+4 stars): Total=267
6. Post Kami Training: Power=381 (+3.5 stars), Ki=460 (+5 stars): Total=759
7. Start of DBZ: Power=416 (+0.36 star), Ki=517 (+1.25 star): Total=934
8. After Kaio’s training: Power=5,071 (+10 stars), Ki=3,845 (+8 stars): Total=8,960
9. After spaceship: Power=61,771 (+10 stars), Ki=128,691 (+14 stars): Total=190,462

Notes:
1. A Ki attack like Kamehameha gives access to the total. A regular Ki attack can only use the Ki component.
2. Earth busting level attack is at around 21,000.
3. The stars for the start of Dragonball are relative to the ordinary human level.
4. Minor alterations were made like shifting an “official star point” to the unknown regions to make the scaling smoother but the net result is pretty much unaffected.
5. After the encounter with Ginyu the power levels were abused. To reflect this I would say that past the 100,000 mark for every 30% increase the Ki growth does not represent exp(2) increase in energy (in Joules) but instead exp(1).
Last edited by Speedster on Fri Oct 30, 2015 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by Darkron2151 » Fri Oct 30, 2015 12:23 am

How much stronger do you guys think Vegeta got during the time between Beerus and Goku's match and when he goes off with Whis to train (DB Super episode 16)? Whis does comment that his power has gone up quite a bit, and Vegeta is now willing to have a match with Beerus (though that could've just been his pride talking, and Whis says he still has no chance). What do ya'll think?

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:17 pm

Perhaps Vegeta surpassed 10% of Beerus' power? He is definetely weaker than Goku, though.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by Noah » Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:11 am

On scales of 1 to 10, how would you put these characters:

SSJ Vegeta (Post 3 years training)
SSJ Goku (Post 3 years training)
SSJ Mirai Trunks
Piccolo (Post 3 years training)
Android 19
Dr. Gero
Android 17
Android 18
Imperfect Cell (Pre humans)
Piccolo (Fuse with Kami)
Last edited by Noah on Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by Khin » Sat Oct 31, 2015 8:07 am

Kamiccolo = 10.0

Android 17 = 10.0

Android 18 = 8.5

SSJ Vegeta = 7.0

SSJ Goku = 6.5

SSJ Trunks = 5.5

Imperfect Cell(Pre) = 5.0

Android 19(Post) = 4.5

Piccolo = 4.0

Dr.Gero(Post) = 2.5

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by Captain Space » Sat Oct 31, 2015 8:55 am

SSJ3 Vegeta wrote:Kamiccolo = 10.0

Android 17 = 10.0

Android 18 = 8.5

SSJ Vegeta = 7.0

SSJ Goku = 6.5

SSJ Trunks = 5.5

Imperfect Cell(Pre) = 5.0

Android 19(Post) = 4.5

Piccolo = 4.0

Dr.Gero(Post) = 2.5
I got the impression that Imperfect Cell was at least stronger than Vegeta. His reaction to sensing Cell seemed to imply he was angry about that as well as confused about all the different energy signatures he sensed from Cell. I think afterwards, he was like, "They're surpassing us left and right, Kakarot!" or something. And there's also the fact that Cell killed Trunks in the future and I think it was only the anime that showed it as being base Trunks.

Then again, if "pre-humans" means before absorbing any humans (since he absorbed some before killing Trunks and some more before fighting Piccolo), then yeah, I guess he'd be considerably weaker.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Sat Oct 31, 2015 9:20 am

SSJ Vegeta (Post 3 years training) - 500
SSJ Goku (Post 3 years training) - 480
SSJ Mirai Trunks - 450
Piccolo (Post 3 years training) - 400
Android 19 - 275
Dr. Gero - 337.5
Android 17 - 800
Android 18 - 700
Imperfect Cell (Pre humans) - 600
Piccolo (Fuse with Kami) - 800 (720 weighted)

To one of the above posters, #19 post > #20 post?

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by LightBing » Sat Oct 31, 2015 9:32 am

SSJ Vegeta (Post 3 years training) - 7.8
SSJ Goku (Post 3 years training) - 7.4
SSJ Mirai Trunks - 6
Piccolo (Post 3 years training) - 3.5
Android 19 - 2.4
Dr. Gero - 2.8
Android 17 - 9.6
Android 18 - 9.3
Imperfect Cell (Pre humans) - 8.5
Piccolo (Fuse with Kami) - 10

I'm assuming you want #19 and Dr.Gero in their strongest(post absorption).

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Sat Oct 31, 2015 9:48 am

You have Trunks quite low, he was stated to be "not too different" from Vegeta, and all of the Super Saiyans were grouped together by Kami.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by LightBing » Sat Oct 31, 2015 9:55 am

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:You have Trunks quite low, he was stated to be "not too different" from Vegeta, and all of the Super Saiyans were grouped together by Kami.
The way he reacts to Vegeta's fight with #18, coupled with Trunks story makes me think he is at almost the same power when he killed Freeza. Which is a far amount below Vegeta's and Goku's level. Note that I think Trunks was high above Goku, when he gave the warning about the Androids, three years past.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:09 pm

Noah wrote:On scales of 1 to 10, how would you put these characters:
SSJ Vegeta (Post 3 years training): 6.94
SSJ Goku (Post 3 years training): 6.66
SSJ Mirai Trunks: 6.11
Piccolo (Post 3 years training): 5
Android 19: 1.666 [pre], 3.611 [post]
Dr. Gero: 2.5 [pre], 4.0277 [post]
Android 17: 10
Android 18: 9.583
Imperfect Cell (Pre humans): 7.6838
Piccolo (Fuse with Kami): 10

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Sat Oct 31, 2015 1:35 pm

Noah wrote:On scales of 1 to 10, how would you put these characters:

SSJ Vegeta (Post 3 years training)
SSJ Goku (Post 3 years training)
SSJ Mirai Trunks
Piccolo (Post 3 years training)
Android 19
Dr. Gero
Android 17
Android 18
Imperfect Cell (Pre humans)
Piccolo (Fuse with Kami)
Android 19 - 1.3
Android 20 - 2
Piccolo - 5
SSJ Trunks - 5.7
SSJ Goku - 6.8
SSJ Vegeta - 7.1
Imperfect Cell - 7.6
Android 18 - 8.6
Android 17 - 9.5
Kamicolo - 10

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by ahill1 » Sat Oct 31, 2015 2:32 pm

Kamiccolo 15
Android 17 15
Android 18 14
Kamiccolo ( Weighted ) 13.5
Imperfect Cell ( Ginger Town ) 12
Vegeta SSJ 10
Goku SSJ 9.5
Trunks SSJ 8.8
Piccolo 7.5
Android 20 ( Post ) 6.3
Android 19 ( Post ) 5.8
Goku SSJ sick 5.8
Android 20 ( Pre ) 5.2
Goku SSJ ( Trunks Arc ) 5.2
Android 19 ( Pre ) 4.7
Trunks SSJ ( Trunks Arc ) 4.4

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by Captain Space » Sat Oct 31, 2015 9:36 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:You have Trunks quite low, he was stated to be "not too different" from Vegeta, and all of the Super Saiyans were grouped together by Kami.
I would assume Trunks to be a fair amount below Vegeta by the way 18 had to take a few minutes wearing Vegeta down but Trunks got destroyed almost instantly. But that substantial difference is still not-huge enough that those other statements can work.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:04 pm

LightBing wrote:The way he reacts to Vegeta's fight with #18, coupled with Trunks story makes me think he is at almost the same power when he killed Freeza. Which is a far amount below Vegeta's and Goku's level. Note that I think Trunks was high above Goku, when he gave the warning about the Androids, three years past.
I don't think his reaction necessitates a substantial difference between the two. Trunks just underestimated Vegeta in my opinion. What in Trunks' story makes you think that there's a large gap?
Captain Space wrote:I would assume Trunks to be a fair amount below Vegeta by the way 18 had to take a few minutes wearing Vegeta down but Trunks got destroyed almost instantly. But that substantial difference is still not-huge enough that those other statements can work.
#18 was toying against Vegeta, no? And Trunks was one-shotted by #17, not #18.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by Captain Space » Sat Oct 31, 2015 10:14 pm

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:
Captain Space wrote:I would assume Trunks to be a fair amount below Vegeta by the way 18 had to take a few minutes wearing Vegeta down but Trunks got destroyed almost instantly. But that substantial difference is still not-huge enough that those other statements can work.
#18 was toying against Vegeta, no? And Trunks was one-shotted by #17, not #18.
Yeah, but it still took her more to finally put him down than it did with Trunks. And in that scene the androids were basically being presented as equal. That there was a difference between them at all only became an issue when 17 went all-out fighting Piccolo.

...actually having rewatched it, nope, it was 18. First she lolnopes his sword, then 17 hits him once, then when he gets back up 18 smacks him with Vegeta, knocking him out.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by ahill1 » Sun Nov 01, 2015 12:24 am

I'd have Future Trunks SSJ at 88% of Vegeta SSJ... this is a pretty fair gap IMO.

Vegeta SSJ 100
Goku SSJ 95
Trunks SSJ 88
Piccolo 75

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by Khin » Sun Nov 01, 2015 10:00 am

SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:To one of the above posters, #19 post > #20 post?
Why would Gero be > 19? #19 took a lot of energy from Goku and Vegeta whereas Gero only took energy from Yamcha,surpressed Piccolo and one Ki blast from Vegeta.unless there are some scenes/statements that i forgot,i dont think Gero>Android 19.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by LightBing » Sun Nov 01, 2015 2:28 pm

Regarding Trunks:

He's impressed with his father, that's fighting on par with #18; which I disagree was toying with Vegeta. She was in control but Vegeta was giving her a good go, unfortunately for him the Androids don't lose power.

He makes various statements which put him close to Future Androids level, who we know are weaker than the current ones.

He shouldn't be much stronger than at the time of Freeza demise because:
Trunks Story gives us how much time the time machine needs to recharge, 8 months. So he had 8 months to train, alone. Also at the end of Trunks Story, we see his change of heart, after almost being killed by the androids. He understands he has no chance, that's why he must accept his mother plan and go to the past.
So the last time he faced the Androids must have been right before going into the past, like we see in Trunks Story. It wouldn't make sense for the character to challenge the androids again and get himself killed after all of that. During the 8 months period he must have avoided them and trained quietly.
Which makes me think:

Goku (Android Arc) - 145
Mirai Trunks (Android Arc) - 127
Mirai Trunks (Yardrat) - 124
Goku (Yardrat) - 107

Some quotes for reference:
Chapter: 353 (DBZ 159), P12.4-6
Context: after Trunks says Vegeta seems to be doing OK fighting No.18
Piccolo: “Vegeta’s going to be killed…[ ] Watch…Bit by bit, the android is starting to push him back. It’s because his enemy’s power never falls at all, while Vegeta’s stamina falls the more he moves.”

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.5
Trunks: “They’re also somewhat different from the androids I know…They weren’t as outrageously strong as this…Even I could fight them fairly well…”

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