Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by apex_pretador » Mon May 23, 2016 12:13 pm

Kuririn Fan wrote:How strong are those failed fusions of Gotenks?
Fat gotenks is strong, stronger than base kids likely. I'd put him around 70% Freeza level at best to half of base goten at worst.
Skinny gotenks is fodder tier / chiatzu level at best to fodder tier / Cyborg tao level at worst.

Veku / fat gogeta is stronger than base gotenks for sure. He would be around SS2 vegeta level IMO.
LightBing wrote:Let's discuss Super Boo. If one goes by the logic that SSJ Gotenks was at the very least in the same realm as Majin Boo. Then how did Super Boo obtained the power to compete with an even stronger Gotenks at SSJ3?
Isn't an immense gain when he just absorbed Mr.Boo?

I'm struggling with this. I would appreciate to hear some opinions, with the numbers to paint the picture.
I'd like to add my opinion on this:

Gotenks did gain massive power in ROSAT, but the boost buu got was even bigger.
I'd say gotenks was a little weaker than fat buu before rosat, and somewhat stronger than fat buu post rosat.

However, super buu was significantly troubled by SS gotenks alone, who hurt him thrice. I would say buu is significantly stronger than SS gotenks , but not by a one-shot margin.

On the other hand, SS3 gotenks vs super buu was a complete stomp in gotenks' favour. Gotenks dominated super buu, buu didn't contend with him, AT ALL.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon May 23, 2016 1:54 pm

LightBing wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:I think Majin Boo became twice as strong as his other self and Gotenks became as powerful as him. For example, if Majin Boo and Gotenks are at 10, they both power-up to 20.
So you ignore the guidebook numbers for SSJ3? Or did you had Gotenks really weak before RoSaT? Or simply, whatever fits the plot?
Not really. SS3's power being SS's power times 8 works with Goku. I just don't think Boo and by extension Gotenks became more than twice more powerful. Gotenks and Boo were probably at about the same level when the boys mastered Fusion, given all the implications about their power. When Boo powered-up, he simply absorbed another version of himself, and then SS3 Gotenks was able to keep up with him.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by LightBing » Mon May 23, 2016 1:59 pm

DanielSSJ wrote:Eh, to each his own, I guess. I figure that Boo's absorption of South Kaioshin was glossed over since due to Buff Boo's blink-and-you'll-miss-it appearance, and that the focus of that particular scene was Boo's metamorphosis into his original form. Toriyama doesn't often do a lot of explaining, other than "This new form is a lot stronger than the last one" or "Oh, now he's weaker than before", so I figured it was left to the fans to try and come up with their own explanations to rationalize what happened. They don't really try to explain why Grand Kaioshin's presence inside of Boo caused his power to regress, now that I think about it.
Having re-read the Kaioshin explanation:

I couldn't disagree more. The explanation regarding the South Kaioshin is right there. He's says South Kaioshin was the strongest Kaioshin, explaning Buff Boo power and that he was burly, explaining Buff Boo muscles.
He only makes exception of the Dai Kaioshin absorption, which he can't explain. Altought he commented how the "heart" lowered his power.
Connecting this with this recent interview:

It appears evil equals power for Boo, the Dai Kaioshin being a gentle being was able to repress his evil making him weaker. When Majin Boo got angry and his evil came out, the result was Super Boo. Which should equal Pure Boo(Pure evil) + Majin Boo, without the goodness suppressing the evil.

I really don't think God Ki influences Boo. Or do the Kaioshins, just by being who they are have any special effect. Dai Kaioshin "heart(gentleness)" appears to be what caused the unique effect, it countered what Boo was Pure Evil, harvested from humans(humanoids) since long before anybody can remember.
apex_pretador wrote:I'd like to add my opinion on this:

Gotenks did gain massive power in ROSAT, but the boost buu got was even bigger.
I'd say gotenks was a little weaker than fat buu before rosat, and somewhat stronger than fat buu post rosat.

However, super buu was significantly troubled by SS gotenks alone, who hurt him thrice. I would say buu is significantly stronger than SS gotenks , but not by a one-shot margin.

On the other hand, SS3 gotenks vs super buu was a complete stomp in gotenks' favour. Gotenks dominated super buu, buu didn't contend with him, AT ALL.


Super Boo is stronger than SSJ Gotenks. The later combined with Piccolo didn't have enough power to open a dimensional hole, while Super Boo could.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by apex_pretador » Tue May 24, 2016 2:21 am

LightBing wrote:
apex_pretador wrote:I'd like to add my opinion on this:

Gotenks did gain massive power in ROSAT, but the boost buu got was even bigger.
I'd say gotenks was a little weaker than fat buu before rosat, and somewhat stronger than fat buu post rosat.

However, super buu was significantly troubled by SS gotenks alone, who hurt him thrice. I would say buu is significantly stronger than SS gotenks , but not by a one-shot margin.

On the other hand, SS3 gotenks vs super buu was a complete stomp in gotenks' favour. Gotenks dominated super buu, buu didn't contend with him, AT ALL.
Super Boo is stronger than SSJ Gotenks. The later combined with Piccolo didn't have enough power to open a dimensional hole, while Super Boo could.
I think you need to re-read my post.
I see it like this:
SS gotenks vs buu ~= Goku vs Perfect cell (FP)
SS3 gotenks vs buu ~= Gohan vs buu ~= Gohan SS2 vs FP Cell

Super buu never kept up with SS3 gotenks, who completely destroyed him. Actually, unlike gohan, Gotenks would've completely annihilated if not for his time limit.

Now, the theory for super buu's power up is :

apex_pretador wrote:
Desassina wrote:
DanielSSJ wrote:It isn't logical to multiply two character's power together. Math just doesn't work like that. For example, if Pure Boo was a 40 instead of a 4, and Dai Kaioshin was a 4 instead of a 0.4, then Good Boo would be a 160. You can't multiply abstract things like a person's strength by anouther person's strength. You can add the two together or you can multiply it by an mathmatical integer, but you can't multiply the two together. Its the same reason why "Vegetto = Goku x Vegeta" doesn't work.
With addition, you have to make even more conditions for when Dai Kaioshin subtracts instead, even if it should be the same for Piccolo and the kids... It's confusing to say the least.
To solve your confusion,

I think that dai kaioshin's absorption works more like fusion, than rather than addition type. He goes to buff buu, then he fuses and forms an entirely new different being, with mind, heart, sense and both good and evil present. This is fat buu. He is extremely powerful due to incredible power of dai kaioshin, but dai kaioshin restricted a huge portion of his evilness, and his incredible power reserve of kid buu.
However, when he gets mad, dai kaioshin's hold on fat buu loosens , and fat buu becomes able to tap into the power of kid buu a bit.
So, fat buu (when he came out) was weaker than Majin vegeta and SS2 goku as they lol'd at his power. Then he gets a little serious, and taps the accessible kid buu's reserve he has, and powers up to a point that it worries goku & vegeta, and scares gohan. This is fat buu's max power without getting angry without kaoishin's hold on him loosening. Majin vegeta is able to thrash him around. They seem around the same level of power.
When fat buu powers up again even further, he is tapping into more of kid buu's power, due to his anger making the restriction of kaioshin weaker, which happens when steams come out of his head.

When fat buu gets fully mad, kaioshin's hold on his evilness breaks, but his restriction on the power of kid buu is still present. The freed evilness takes a form of skinny buu, and it is not able to access the power of kid buu due to the fact that restriction is still present.

To remove the restriction, evil buu absorbs fat buu and then becomes super buu, an incredible power, who is able to tap into 100% of kid buu's power AND the power of fat buu (the fusion of buu-material and dai-kaioshin) at the same time, and that's why he's so strong.

On buff buu, he is unrestrained kid buu with power of south kaioshin added.

Kid buu is, ....... kid buu

(Wow, I nailed it, a huge post on buu)
TLDR:

Fat buu = Fusion of buu and dai kaioshin , can access to some of kid buu's power via rage (pre split)
Kid buu = kid buu
Skinny buu = somewhat stronger than fat buu
Super buu = Kid buu's 100% power + Fat buu's power
Buff buu = Kid buu's 100% power + South kaioshin's power

Strengths being like this:

Buuhan > Buutenks >> Gohan > Gotenks > Buff buu > Super buu > Kid buu (Full power) > SS3 goku (Ki gathered) > Kid buu > SS3 goku > Suppressed SS3 goku ~= South kaioshin ~= SS gotenks post > skinny buu > Fat buu > Majin vegeta > Kid gohan > SPC > Adult SS2 gohan > Dabura >= FP cell
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by LightBing » Tue May 24, 2016 7:07 am

apex_pretador wrote:I think you need to re-read my post.
I see it like this:
SS gotenks vs buu ~= Goku vs Perfect cell (FP)
SS3 gotenks vs buu ~= Gohan vs buu ~= Gohan SS2 vs FP Cell

Super buu never kept up with SS3 gotenks, who completely destroyed him. Actually, unlike gohan, Gotenks would've completely annihilated if not for his time limit.
I misread it, so many Boo's. Sorry about that.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by Blackstripe » Wed May 25, 2016 7:25 am

Here's a little something for fun. What if Old Kaioshin gave his Ultimate power up to these relatively weak individuals? What would their power levels be?

Ultimate Bulma
Ultimate Oolong
Ultimate Puar
Ultimate Lunch
Ultimate Mr. Satan
Ultimate Videl
Ultimate Ranfan
Ultimate Nam
Ultimate Panput

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by Dbzfan94 » Wed May 25, 2016 10:25 am

Blackstripe wrote:Here's a little something for fun. What if Old Kaioshin gave his Ultimate power up to these relatively weak individuals? What would their power levels be?

Ultimate Bulma
Ultimate Oolong
Ultimate Puar
Ultimate Lunch
Ultimate Mr. Satan
Ultimate Videl
Ultimate Ranfan
Ultimate Nam
Ultimate Panput
Bulma Oolong and Puar aren't even fighters so I'd say 21st WT Roshi at best.
Mr. Satan theoretically could become current Krillin / Tien level same with Videl.
The rest no stronger than a Saibaman

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by xmysticgohanx » Wed May 25, 2016 1:20 pm

apex_pretador wrote:
Kuririn Fan wrote:How strong are those failed fusions of Gotenks?
Fat gotenks is strong, stronger than base kids likely. I'd put him around 70% Freeza level at best to half of base goten at worst.
You have the base saiyans way too weak, even for a Freeza > base Saiyans guy, if you think someone stronger than the base kids is ~70% Freeza at best
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Wed May 25, 2016 2:24 pm

apex_pretador wrote:
Kuririn Fan wrote:How strong are those failed fusions of Gotenks?
Fat gotenks is strong, stronger than base kids likely. I'd put him around 70% Freeza level at best to half of base goten at worst.
Skinny gotenks is fodder tier / chiatzu level at best to fodder tier / Cyborg tao level at worst.

Veku / fat gogeta is stronger than base gotenks for sure. He would be around SS2 vegeta level IMO.
Where do you get that from?

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by ahill1 » Wed May 25, 2016 9:48 pm

DanielSSJ wrote:
LightBing wrote:
Analytic wrote:Snip
I guess there was a misunderstanding, happy that it's cleared up.

I find Bulma unreliable because she can't sense ki, the manga always presents those without the ability as doubtful, mostly incompetent. We just have to look at Freeza's army, many seasonable fighters with ki control themselves, who had no idea how strong someone was without a scouter.

If I said Trunks might not have powered significantly, I would be an hypocrite this is Dragon Ball after all. But that isn't my argument. I believe the last time Trunks fought the Androids was right before going into the past, like we saw in Trunks Story. Which would make him on par with an individual future Android when he met Goku.
I say this because the way Trunks Story developed, him fighting the Androids again would be contradictory. He was a stubborn kid, only at the end after barely surviving the Androids does he decide to hear his mother and place his faith into Goku.
Why would he risk death in those 8 months? It makes no sense. This is highlighted in the Android Arc by his very careful nature, he doesn't take any risks while facing the Androids. Always wanting to wait for Goku.

We don't actually know Trunks expectations of Goku, it doesn't have to be related to himself or Gohan's power. I actually think it's related to Freeza, the measuring tool of that mini-arc. It's very much in the air.
As far as how Trunks matches up to his version of the Androids, there is a bit of back-and-forth here. First, in the Trunks mini-arc, he says that even one-on-one, he can barely escape with his life. Then, 3 years later, he says that he can fight fairly well against the future ones. Then, when we get the Trunks History chapter, when he's in the hospital, he says the gap between them is still pretty large. So either Toriyama isn't sure himself and he's just going back and forth on the issue (which, knowing Toriyama, is a valid stance to take), or Trunks did fight them again after he had gotten stronger. As careful as Trunks is, do you really think he'd turn a blind eye if someone was in need? Do you really, truly believe that he would just ignore it. I'm with you in that Trunks wouldn't actively pick a fight with the Androids in the hopes of taking them down, but I'm sure if someone was in danger form the Androids, and Trunks was nearby, he wouldn't just look the other direction while they went on a slaughter spree. He would put himself at risk in order to give the innocent bystanders enough time to get to safety and retreat after they were out of harms way.
According to the Japanese manga, future #17 said after future Trunks just showed up again that he's challenged them multiple times and that he thinks he'll never get sick of his efforts. I highly doubt they only fought once considering that.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by ahill1 » Wed May 25, 2016 11:47 pm

Sorry for the double post, but only a doubt: Does the Daizenshuu 4 state Vegeta (vs 1st form Freeza) was stronger than 530,000?

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by Kaboom » Thu May 26, 2016 12:48 am

ahill1 wrote:Sorry for the double post, but only a doubt: Does the Daizenshuu 4 state Vegeta (vs 1st form Freeza) was stronger than 530,000?
No, the only power estimate ever given for Vegeta during that portion of the fight is 250,000 from an old V-Jump article.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by VegetaSSJBlue » Sat May 28, 2016 12:20 pm

Battle of Gods Arc

Whis: ??
Beerus: ??

Son Goku: 110,000,000
-- Super Saiyan: 5,500,000,000
-- Super Saiyan 2: 22,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan 3: 55,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan [Energy Arsorbed]: 10,000,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan God: 200,000,000,000,000
-- Base: 80,000,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan: 200,000,000,000,000

Vegeta: 100,000,000
-- Super Saiyan: 5,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan 2: 20,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan 2 [Enraged]: 5,000,000,000,000

Son Gohan [Ultimate]: 600,000,000,000

Majin Boo: 20,000,000,000

Piccolo: 3,750,000,000

Trunks: 50,000,000
-- Super Saiyan: 2,500,000,000

Son Goten: 50,000,000
-- Super Saiyan: 2,500,000,000

No. 18: 300,000,000

Tenshinhan: 90,000

Resurrection F Arc

Vados: ??
Whis: ??
Beerus: ??
Champa: ??

Freeza [First form]: 400,000
-- After 4 months of training: 2,000,000,000,000
-- Final form: 100,000,000,000,000
-- Golden form: 530,000,000,000,000

Son Goku: 100,000,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan Blue: 500,000,000,000,000

Vegeta: 100,000,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan Blue: 500,000,000,000,000

Son Gohan: 20,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan: 600,000,000,000

Ginyu [Inside Tagoma’s body]: 120,000,000,000

Gotenks [Super Saiyan]: 50,000,000,000

Tagoma: 20,000
-- After 4 months of training: 20,000,000,000

Piccolo: 4,000,000,000

Tenshinhan: 100,000

Kuririn: 40,000

Shisami: 30,000

Sorbet: 1,800

Master Roshi: 400
-- Full power form: 1,500

Freeza’s soldiers: 250 - 1,000

Jaco: 500

Champa Arc

Beerus: ??
Champa: ??

Son Goku: 120,000,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan: 300,000,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan Blue: 600,000,000,000,000
-- Kaioken x 10: 6,000,000,000,000,000

Hit: 600,000,000,000,000

Vegeta: 120,000,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan: 300,000,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan Blue: 600,000,000,000,000

Cabba: 120,000,000,000,000
-- Super Saiyan: 300,000,000,000,000

Auta Magetta: 100,000,000,000,000
-- Full power: 200,000,000,000,000

Frost [First form]: 80,000,000,000,000
-- Assault form: 120,000,000,000,000
-- Final form: 180,000,000,000,000

Piccolo: 150,000,000,000,000

Botamo: 50,000,000,000,000

Son Gohan: 600,000,000,000

Good Boo: 20,000,000,000

Monaka: 1
Last edited by VegetaSSJBlue on Sat May 28, 2016 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat May 28, 2016 1:20 pm

I always giggle when someone uses my format. :P

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by Analytic » Sat May 28, 2016 1:24 pm

Here are some power levels. Please critique. :P
Last edited by Analytic on Mon May 30, 2016 3:59 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat May 28, 2016 4:01 pm

- You have the humans way too close to Piccolo in the Saiyan saga. I think the ratio from 408/250/208/177 should be taken into account somewhat.
- I'd bump Monster Zarbon a bit. Vegeta needed cheap tricks to beat him.
- Recoome, Burter and Jeice that weak?
- True form Freeza being in the 5 million range feels like a very unnecessary bloat but OK.
- Super Saiyan Goku and Freeza's battle wasn't that close like your numbers imply.
- I really don't think Mecha Freeza is stronger than Super Saiyan Goku. Why bring Cold then?
- So Goku grew twice as strong in less than 2 years while healing and mastering IT? I don't buy it.
- Piccolo admitted inferiority to the Perfect Cell that beat up Super Vegeta.
- I'd bump Kibito a bit. He was supposed to give base Gohan some trouble.
- You have an error in the Majin Boo awakens section concerning East Kaioshin.
- If you are going to make battle powers for BoG then you must respect the Freeza > base Goku thing. No other way around that.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by Analytic » Sat May 28, 2016 4:12 pm

ZombieVito wrote:- You have the humans way too close to Piccolo in the Saiyan saga. I think the ratio from 408/250/208/177 should be taken into account somewhat.
I could bump him up to 2,400, but I feel it starts becoming very cramped as Piccolo thought that Nappa was immortal after he tanked Tenshinhan's Kikoho (which should be < Gohan's 2,800 Masenko). Which to me implies 2,800 > Kikoho > Piccolo.
ZombieVito wrote:- I'd bump Monster Zarbon a bit. Vegeta needed cheap tricks to beat him.
I don't think that Vegeta necessarily needed cheap tricks to win, just to have an easier time defeating Zarbon so that he wouldn't have to have a long/dragged out fight that would deplete him of his stamina.
ZombieVito wrote:- Recoome, Burter and Jeice that weak?
I don't consider that too weak.
ZombieVito wrote:- Super Saiyan Goku and Freeza's battle wasn't that close like your numbers imply.
I suppose we just interpret the fight differently. Freeza seemed pretty competitive until his stamina depleted to me.
ZombieVito wrote:- I really don't think Mecha Freeza is stronger than Super Saiyan Goku. Why bring Cold then?
It's completely possible that he expected Goku to grow stronger after their fight on Namek, as he knows what zenkais are. And while he did bring Cold, he still stated that he was pretty sure he could win alone.
ZombieVito wrote:- So Goku grew twice as strong in less than 2 years while healing and mastering IT? I don't buy it.
Meh. I attribute to plot. Goku > Trunks >> FP Freeza is what's implied, so it's what I go with.
ZombieVito wrote:- Piccolo admitted inferiority to the Perfect Cell that beat up Super Vegeta.
He saw Buff Cell. He also knew that Cell could grow stronger, as I believe he heard Goku saying that there was no telling how powerful Cell could become or something along those lines.
ZombieVito wrote:- I'd bump Kibito a bit. He was supposed to give base Gohan some trouble.
Yeah, I don't follow that Daizenshuu tidbit. Nothing in the manga tells me that Kibito is all that strong and the Zeta Sword bit where he fails to even budge it tells me that he's all talk.
ZombieVito wrote:- You have an error in the Majin Boo awakens section concerning East Kaioshin.
Thanks. Will fix.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by LightBing » Sat May 28, 2016 7:57 pm

I agree with many of ZombieVito pointers. To elaborate, you could bump Piccolo in the Saiyan arc and the humans as well. You seem to follow the idea that Piccolo fusion is x2, following what the Grand Elder said he should be about half of Nappa. I like your Nappa number, so Piccolo at 3xxx would be excellent.

You already know I disagree about Mirai Trunks, no point to get into it again. But Goku and Trunks are way too high! Freeza is still a reference, he has to be much closer to them. When Trunks called Goku amazing, he talked "this is the sword that killed Freeza", something along those lines that highlight Freeza as a pretty amazing foe still.

I strongly disagree with Base Saiyans>Freeza. Beerus statement is the final nail in the coffin for me this regarding this.

I have Majin Boo as a little more than 2x SSJ2 Gohan, since that was how much it was necessary to bring Boo to full power. I can't see how Evil Boo obtained such power simply by eating Good Boo, it's insane and lacks a decent explanation for it. Specially since you believe Boo's absorption to be an addition and even if Boo ate Boo, we see him absorbed like the others.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Sat May 28, 2016 11:36 pm

LightBing wrote:I have Majin Boo as a little more than 2x SSJ2 Gohan, since that was how much it was necessary to bring Boo to full power. I can't see how Evil Boo obtained such power simply by eating Good Boo, it's insane and lacks a decent explanation for it. Specially since you believe Boo's absorption to be an addition and even if Boo ate Boo, we see him absorbed like the others.
Just curious, what numbers do you have for Majin Boo and all of his other forms? I know we disagree on how Boo's power works, but I'd like to see what you think his power levels are for each form.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by LightBing » Sun May 29, 2016 8:46 am

DanielSSJ wrote:
LightBing wrote:I have Majin Boo as a little more than 2x SSJ2 Gohan, since that was how much it was necessary to bring Boo to full power. I can't see how Evil Boo obtained such power simply by eating Good Boo, it's insane and lacks a decent explanation for it. Specially since you believe Boo's absorption to be an addition and even if Boo ate Boo, we see him absorbed like the others.
Just curious, what numbers do you have for Majin Boo and all of his other forms? I know we disagree on how Boo's power works, but I'd like to see what you think his power levels are for each form.
Here's my old numbers, they should still be relevant since the Boo part is kinda on the nose. Looking at it again I agree with myself, for the most part.

Basically, absorption is an addition with the exception of Dai Kaioshin. Super Boo is Pure Boo + Majin Boo, the suppressed evil was able to escape and Boo regained that power after the struggle we witnessed in the manga and the absorption.

Majin Boo - 2.450.000.000
Full Power - 4.900.000.000

Evil Boo - 2.700.000.000
Good Boo - 2.200.000.000

Super Boo - 6.000.000.000
Full Power - 10.400.000.000
Gotenks Absorbed - 23.200.000.000
Piccolo/Trunks/Goten Absorbed - 11.178.400.000
Gohan Absorbed - 24.678.400.000

Buff Boo - 10.800.000.000

Pure Boo - 5.500.000.000

I'm planning to make a new power level list, based solely on the manga and Mr.Toriyama statements. That one will be well thought of since it will be accompanied by a justification for each conclusion.

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